If they took ethnic cleansing seriously, there would be no Serbia or Bulgaria, and all of Rumelia would be controlled by the wise Sultans in Istanbul, the heir of Rome. Instead of all this "Wahhabi" and "Benghazi" or "ISIS" nonsense that is currently funded by the wealth of Arabia, the Sultans would take all of the oil wealth themselves and use it to fund real development in Anatolia, Rumelia, and the other industrial areas in the Islamic Roman Empire. The bellicose Arab tribes would be put down firmly. Jihadi clerics would be excommunicated by the wise Caliph of all Islam (the sultan). The glories of Rome would be recovered, and the Empire would unify the civilized world from al-Rûm to al-Basrah, no bloody wars or dividing tariffs, just one mighty army to stand up to the Atlantic world, one market to make us rich, and one holy Qur'an to enlighten us. But unfortunately, the Austrians just wouldn't let that happen in 1529, so now we have what we do now. I hope you're happy.
For people who claim that Islam isn't hateful, look at all of these studies conducted regarding muslim beliefs. The results are appalling. When given the chance, share this data to shut down people's false perceptions of modern day islam.
These studies neglect the terrible impacts of the fall of the great Ottoman Empire. Just imagine if it was still around. Instead of all this "Wahhabi" and "Benghazi" or "ISIS" nonsense that is currently funded by the wealth of Arabia, the Sultans would take all of the oil wealth themselves and use it to fund real development in Anatolia, Rumelia, and the other industrial areas in the Islamic Roman Empire. The bellicose Arab tribes would be put down firmly. Jihadi clerics would be excommunicated by the wise Caliph of all Islam (the sultan). The glories of Rome would be recovered, and the Empire would unify the civilized world from al-Rûm to al-Basrah, no bloody wars or dividing tariffs, just one mighty army to stand up to the Atlantic world, one market to make us rich, and one holy Qur'an to enlighten us. But unfortunately, the Austrians just wouldn't let that happen in 1529, so now we have what we do now. I hope you're happy.
ah i see so the poverty and political instability has nothing to do with the west funding insurgent groups and getting rid of secular leaders and everything to with islam cuz religion just works that way
I explored the second link first and wasn't too surprised to read muslim americans are among the most moderate in the world or that the vast majority of muslims everywhere disapprove of ISIS.
As far as violence, the highest rates, from 30%-40%, are from Palestine, Egypt, and Afghanistan (obviously concerning) whereas most other countries enjoy much more significant majorities opposing the use of violence.
Now the first link focusing on Sharia is more depressing, if not surprising. Most muslims think sharia law should be the law of the land, pretty obvious considering the laws and practices in muslim majority countries. Obviously, many tenets of sharia law are complete shit and I disagree with anyone living under them, muslim or not. Interestingly enough, among those who believe sharia law should be the law of the land for their respective countries, a majority in most countries believe it should not apply to non-muslims.
I've now typed muslim too often and the word is starting to look weird..
"Fuck you, my grandmother was raped and murdered!"
"Well, yeah, but like, you can't blame all of Islam. Only bad people stereotype others, like a TD poster!"
Repeat that times 100x. The hypocrisy is almost too much. Yeah, there is good people, bad people, whatever, but it always is amazing some fag with a handlebar mustache will say all Islamic people are oppressed victims yet stereotype everyone in the other political party, reddit posters based on sub usage, and GamerGate.
Besides, we all know the true blight against America is those shitty Indians. God damn savages with their fruity tiny baby mustaches and five thousand dumb kids running around. Hopefully we become another Islamic country so they can be genocide.
Besides, we all know the true blight against America is those shitty Indians. God damn savages with their fruity tiny baby mustaches and five thousand dumb kids running around. Hopefully we become another Islamic country so they can be genocide.
Oh I thought you meant the other kind of indian. Can we kill them too so that we don't waste time anymore trying to figure which type of indian we mean every time we speak about either kind?
That's the beautiful thing about Islam, genocide gets way more easy. Nice totem poles there, tonto - Looks like you are going to need to experience the love of Allah (Pulls out a cool AK-47 and and smokes a huge blunt while gunning down old fat diabetic Navajo moms like a bad ass)
I have an idea : let's allow refugees in but create "muslim reservations" as an experiment. Which they'll have to share with native americans. Once they get some Sharia Law going, let's see how well they get along (with the muzzies not being fans of gambling or alcohol).
Breaking News: Reservation violence as Navajo Teen (Pictured wearing a band t-shirt saying SLAYER) found out to have goosed female Muslim teen. Islamic population in area responded by burning down his home and raping his mom after throwing acid in her face nonstop.
It would be good for both sides : the injuns could freely go back to their savage roots, the muslims too. And the red man would have to at least go slower on the fire water since they'd have to keep up with the muslims who abstain.
But the Armenian genocide happened because of Turkic nationalism not Islam
It would be like saying that because most Germans are Cristian the Holocaust happened
"Another guiding principle for the Young Turks was the transformation of their society into one in which religion played no consequential role, a stark contrast from the theocracy that had ruled the Ottoman Empire since its inception."
How bout you take a break from your ignorance for a moment and do just a little bit of research.
How about you quit living in dreamland and instead visit reality. The young turks utterly failed to implement their pie in the sky ideals of secularism. Islam only grew stronger and the young turks failed.
So even if the leaders of the government want the country to become secular makes multiple moves twords seculartion but don't completely succeed within the short time they rule that means there not secular?
Also to say that "Islam grew stronger" (what ever that means) is quite the meme considering the ottoman empire was taken apsrt and much of the middle East was under the control of Britain and France this lead to the rise of Arab nationalism. The rise of fundementalist Islam would come with the Arab spring rebellions
But the Armenian genocide happened because of Turkic nationalism not Islam
It would be like saying that because most Germans are Cristian the Holocaust happened
We'll have the occasional church/mosque/school shooter to entertain us in the meantime (and remind us that a few of the people having those online arguments are doing it with a gun handy).
LOL this moron thinks that the USA will turn Islamic.
The more likely outcome(although still pretty damn unlikely) is if the Us Government implements the Christian equivalent of sharia law and god knows the Evangelicals want that to happen.
Except when some Christian politician wants to oppress gays or trans people. Or wants to put the 10 commandments at a courthouse. Or wants to teach Creationism as a science, Or wants to ban porn. I mean the list goes on.
Actually the Old Testament is literally part of the Christian Biblical canon. What fucking snake handling revival church did you go to?
Jubilees, Macanese, and a few others (Book of Giants etc) are generally considered to be apocryphal, but most of the others are still part of the canon.
Now, their place in the canon is different then the place they exist for Jews, and the place the New Testament is held for Christians, but they are canon for lots of christian sects.
Also did you know that "Shariah" is itself not fully canonical either? Some of it comes from the Quran sure, but quite a lot of it comes from the interpretations of religious scholars and leaders down the line.
Not unlike how Christians and Jews do it. The Jews have the most extensive version of this starting with the Midrash and all The Torah and whatnot, Christians have their own.
What's amazing is that people are arguing that Christians don't use Leviticus as justifications for divine laws:
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Chapter 18 verse 22[1]
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Chapter 20 verse 13
Definitely NEVER heard a Christian reference these passages.
So you're saying that Christians don't use Leviticus as an argument against homosexuality?
Well shit then if that's the case I take it back because I must have had a MASSIVE head trauma earlier in my life To have misheard decades of Christian talking points.
And since I am so clueless about Christians, and arguably suffering from a head wound, perhaps you could help me out with the following.
Why do 7th day adventists not eat pork? They are Christian Right?
Why do Catholics maintain so much of the Old Testament laws, like the burning of incense in the church? Are they Christian?
Why do so many Christians still circumcise their children? Didn't Jesus die for our foreskin?
Ah, so your view is that 7th Day Adventists are not Christian?
It's not an absurd point, frankly. In my own tradition we view Pentecostals and Prosperity doctrines as heretical. This belies the greater point that there are a LOT of "Christian" sects that may have very deep disagreements with each other, even down to what they consider their divine laws.
Things like Kosher, Circumcision, Tithing, Homosexuality, Sabbath, etc etc etc. These all ultimately come from the Old Testament and many Christian doctrines hold that they are no longer law, but many sects still do hold them as sacred.
Should we chip and prune all of the sects that hold some Old Testament law as sacred that our personal church does not, and call what remains "True" Christianity?
To the other point though, and this is what really chaps me, I really don't get all the people arguing that the Old Testament is not "Canon". I think this stems from people not actually understanding what Biblical Canon actually means. The Old Testament was not rendered apocryphal with the New Covenant. That is NOT what canon means.
Ah, so your view is that 7th Day Adventists are not Christian?
I'm Episcopalian, we don't judge people on if they are Christian or not. ( We just leave your Church and go all the way over to America)
Homosexuality,
I was waiting for you to quote the New Testament on Homosexuality so I could talk about how Paul was Greek and how even if you translated it that way it's literally just tacked onto a part about Why rejecting God lead Him to cause that group of people into depravity.
:(
The Old Testament was not rendered apocryphal with the New Covenant. That is NOT what canon means.
The argument is that all the rules against it are over with because of Jesus and even if they weren't Jesus' other teachings about Love are way more important.
dude Im not arguing over opinions. Im catholic. In order to get confirmed you have to study the cathechism of the catholic church. The officially recognized canon of the catholic church is the new testament of the holy bible.
Since you aren't studying the Catechism perhaps you should memorize these sections:
"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70
IV. THE CANON OF SCRIPTURE
120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books.90 This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.91
The Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi.
Whoever is teaching you is not doing their job right.
canon means at least 5 different things in the cathechism (i.e. canon law), of which I still have a copy of in my room
the old testament is included in the bible because it was divinely inspired (see council of trent and a bunch of other decrees)
THe old testament is NOT the authoritative religious text of the catholic church, only the new testament is.
Multiple reformations have affirmed the old testament is divinely inspired, a history of gods chosen people, lays the foundation for the coming of jesus, is a collection of wisdom, and a collection of parables.
THe catholic church even acknowledges that start of genesis is essentially a parable. This is why catholics dont believe in creationism, they believe in intelligently designed evolution (i.e. a day in genesis wasn't really a day, a day to god could be millions of years).
The new testament, which is supreme to the old testament even has multiple passages that say to disregard the laws of the old testament (this is why catholics dont sacrifice animals) the law books are kept because they were divinely inspired history books of gods people.
Why is it that people can criticize the catholic church for their child abuse but still understand that there are good catholics but when someone criticizes islam they are instantly deemed an islamaphobe and racist?
Why is it that people can criticize the catholic church for their child abuse but still understand that there are good catholics but when someone criticizes islam they are instantly deemed an islamaphobe and racist?
Because people who criticize the Catholic church understand that since there are good Catholics we shouldn't oppress them all, while in the Islam case the conclusion is "but fuck them anyways", apparently. You see people criticizing Islam in support of Trump's ban, that's why they are deemed islamophobes and racists.
Why is it that people criticize Islam for having a 6th century prophet who married a 10 year old but don't criticize Catholic priests for having sex with 10 year old boys out of wedlock.
Yeah the gilding is the part that jumped at me. Is it ironic? Like during blackout 2015, people gilding posts asking not to give gold to anything in protest of Reddit?
damn that is a gold mine of drama, but also a mine field. Anywhere you step you gonna piss someone off.
I just always laugh when Christians try to attack other religions when theirs isn't all that great either. If they wouldn't have been neutered by the enlightenment they would be just as bad s they claim islam to be.
But here I go already stubbing my foot into a wasp nest.
If those pieces of shit could stop agendaposting for three seconds, someone might be able to tell them that the Armenian-Greek genocide was an act of extremist nationalism, wherein religion played little part. The people behind it were pretty much secular, as were their motives.
But o no, the Ottoman Empire was nominally a Muslim state so it's all about Islam, right? Nice projection.
I was going to bring this up. The Ottomans were relatively tolerant to its minorities for hundreds of years, especially compared to its contemporaries in Europe. Only with Tanzmat and the Spring of nations did ethnic relations began to collapse further and further.
And Christianity is just as radical as Islam in its teachings. If you don't know that already, boy did you miss out a ton of religion classes.
u/-sick_sad_world-
Because Jesus was a pedo warlord who hated Jews, oh wait. You can see why Islam is so bad in modern society by looking at the terrorists, most of them aren't devout Muslims, they violate alot of the religious bans on drinking or sex and then when they reach a low point in their life they look for redemption. Now when this happens to a Christian you walk into a church and it's all forgiveness but for Muslims there's another way, one that's taught from a young age and celebrated throughout the Muslim world
Really? Any religion can be extremely abusing, even Buddhism which people praise for it's "enlightening philosophy". Jesus did not call for crusades just like Mohammed never called for war on anyone unless it's self defence. Yet both religions committed their fair share of atrocities in the name of religion. I won't say religion is innocent, it's not. But religion cannot dwell outside our minds and we have the power to reform it or worsen it.
I'm an atheist anyway, but O won't cross the line to become yet another die-hard anti-theist asshole who has nothing better to do than tell people how to live their lives.
I'm not here to defend some old religion, but to be clear, that verse specifically spoke of a "civil war" context.
In the same sense, I could take any bible verse in context or out of context and make Christianity look evil, I mean...
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
So yes, a Christian could come up with an x number of excuses to make these not sound so awful, so will Muslims.
Still, in this argument, we'd be cherry-picking just as much as believers do. So what's your point? Proving that Islam is blood(ier) than Christianity? Doesn't make Christianity any better, tbh.
Feel free to explain how attacking the Byzantines was self defense.
Errrm, while most of these wars took place after Muhammad's death, they started the minute he received intelligence that the Byzantines were plotting to attack Muslims.
But to be clear I gave 7 other examples you've ignored because they don't fit your narrative.
Yeah okay, you ignored half of what I said because they don't fit yours, so there we go. We're arguing over nothing.
Mainly that you are literally talking Judaism not Christianity.
I'm talking old testament, but the new testament ins't any cuter. After all, Christianity gave rise to any number of extremist far-right Christian militia (remember Sabra and Shatila, for instance?), the KKK, fascism, you name it. Anyone could argue and counter-argue, and we'd never arrive at a conclusion.
That you are wrong about "Mohammed never called for war on anyone unless it's self defence"
Well, there are numerous historical accounts and interpretations regarding this. I could argue that just as well as anyone could argue otherwise (yours excluded, your argument wasn't that great or convincing - I suppose mine wasn't either to you). I could be wrong, you see, but that's what moderate Muslims would claim and I am glad so many are starting to take the path of religious reform rather than having their religion attacked and "eradicated" by anti-theists.
There will never be a world without religion. Its grip on political institutions may diminish, but it still plays a cultural role. The point is that trying to prove a certain religion is bloody is baseless, will consume time and energy, and is absolutely useless.
Errrm, while most of these wars took place after Muhammad's death,
What. Why would I be talking about things not to do with Mohammad.
they started the minute he received intelligence that the Byzantines were plotting to attack Muslims.
At least say it's because the Ghassanid Roman governor killed an Arab ambassador.
Yeah okay, you ignored half of what I said because they don't fit yours, so there we go. We're arguing over nothing.
Please explain what Jesus has to do with your statement of Mohammad only acted in self defense.
Perhaps I didn't discuss it because it's Whataboutism?
I suppose mine wasn't either to you
Reminder that this was the entirety of your argument for the statement you made:
I'm not here to defend some old religion, but to be clear, that verse specifically spoke of a "civil war" context.
Unless you are talking about your argument that Islam isn't "bad" then yea, I was never arguing that.
I could be wrong, you see, but that's what moderate Muslims would claim and I am glad so many are starting to take the path of religious reform rather than having their religion attacked and "eradicated" by anti-theists.
Oh yea to be clear i'm not one of those people who thinks the vast entirety of Islam is represented by Wahhabism
There will never be a world without religion. Its grip on political institutions may diminish, but it still plays a cultural role
Gotta get space colonization going so Atheists can have their own planet.
, they violate alot of the religious bans on drinking or sex and then when they reach a low point in their life they look for redemption. Now when this happens to a Christian you walk into a church and it's all forgiveness but for Muslims there's another way, one that's taught from a young age and celebrated throughout the Muslim world
Pretty sure that's not how terrorism works. They go to strip clubs and drink after they've decided to blow themselves up.
114 comments
n/a SnapshillBot 2017-01-31
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n/a HodorTheDoorHolder 2017-01-31
MFW the Ottoman Empire is now compared to Wahabbi Sunni Islamic groups like ISIS.
n/a snowkarl 2017-01-31
You are right, the turks were way more successful in their ethnic cleansing than any wahabbi group has ever been
n/a SlavophilesAnonymous 2017-01-31
If they took ethnic cleansing seriously, there would be no Serbia or Bulgaria, and all of Rumelia would be controlled by the wise Sultans in Istanbul, the heir of Rome. Instead of all this "Wahhabi" and "Benghazi" or "ISIS" nonsense that is currently funded by the wealth of Arabia, the Sultans would take all of the oil wealth themselves and use it to fund real development in Anatolia, Rumelia, and the other industrial areas in the Islamic Roman Empire. The bellicose Arab tribes would be put down firmly. Jihadi clerics would be excommunicated by the wise Caliph of all Islam (the sultan). The glories of Rome would be recovered, and the Empire would unify the civilized world from al-Rûm to al-Basrah, no bloody wars or dividing tariffs, just one mighty army to stand up to the Atlantic world, one market to make us rich, and one holy Qur'an to enlighten us. But unfortunately, the Austrians just wouldn't let that happen in 1529, so now we have what we do now. I hope you're happy.
n/a hlary 2017-01-31
If only then there would be no Balkans but tbh the Ottomans were quite tolerant compared to the rest of europe
n/a HodorTheDoorHolder 2017-01-31
LOL no
n/a ChipChippersonAMA 2017-01-31
Personally I'm still salty about the fall of the eastern roman empire
n/a CucksLoveTrump 2017-01-31
Civilization as a whole went to shit after the fall of Constantinople
n/a SlavophilesAnonymous 2017-01-31
You mean in 1918?
n/a hlary 2017-01-31
The Ottomans over the course of 200 years obtained all the territory the Byzantines lost over the course of a thousand years
Also they actuely made instanbul great again so that's also a plus
n/a astra118 2017-01-31
For people who claim that Islam isn't hateful, look at all of these studies conducted regarding muslim beliefs. The results are appalling. When given the chance, share this data to shut down people's false perceptions of modern day islam.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/
http://www.pewresearch.org/topics/muslims-and-islam/
There is more data if you like. Just google Pew Muslim/Islam
n/a SlavophilesAnonymous 2017-01-31
These studies neglect the terrible impacts of the fall of the great Ottoman Empire. Just imagine if it was still around. Instead of all this "Wahhabi" and "Benghazi" or "ISIS" nonsense that is currently funded by the wealth of Arabia, the Sultans would take all of the oil wealth themselves and use it to fund real development in Anatolia, Rumelia, and the other industrial areas in the Islamic Roman Empire. The bellicose Arab tribes would be put down firmly. Jihadi clerics would be excommunicated by the wise Caliph of all Islam (the sultan). The glories of Rome would be recovered, and the Empire would unify the civilized world from al-Rûm to al-Basrah, no bloody wars or dividing tariffs, just one mighty army to stand up to the Atlantic world, one market to make us rich, and one holy Qur'an to enlighten us. But unfortunately, the Austrians just wouldn't let that happen in 1529, so now we have what we do now. I hope you're happy.
n/a astra118 2017-01-31
I don't know enough about history to counter or affirm your post but thanks for the insight.
Also, what do you mean by "I hope you're happy"? I meanly made my post to state the current state of Islam.
n/a SlavophilesAnonymous 2017-01-31
Because people like you were championing the violent breakup of the Empire back in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
n/a astra118 2017-01-31
what do you mean people like me? are you a racist? REEEEEEEEEEE
n/a SlavophilesAnonymous 2017-01-31
People who do not accept the holy Qur'an
n/a zwiebelhans 2017-01-31
Lol the Ottoman Empire fell apart because of internal dissent and weaknesses. It was the sick man Europe for over a century of non development.
n/a SlavophilesAnonymous 2017-01-31
Tanzimat not real, Auspicious Incident not real... Face it, without all the Serbs and Bulgars and Russians the Ottomans would have rebounded.
n/a zxcv1992 2017-01-31
Yeah sorry the Austrians wouldn't just surrender and let you take over.
n/a SlavophilesAnonymous 2017-01-31
It's ok, I'm just trolling. Actually not Turkish or Muslim.
n/a zxcv1992 2017-01-31
Well that was some great bait lol
n/a moudougou 2017-01-31
Go fuck yourself, filthy infidel
n/a Chicup 2017-01-31
I know some very awesome Muslims, but Islam as a religion is shit.
n/a hlary 2017-01-31
ah i see so the poverty and political instability has nothing to do with the west funding insurgent groups and getting rid of secular leaders and everything to with islam cuz religion just works that way
n/a Orsonius 2017-01-31
I know these studies but they make me sad every time.
n/a chaosakita 2017-01-31
Gas the Muslims lol
n/a jamdaman 2017-01-31
I explored the second link first and wasn't too surprised to read muslim americans are among the most moderate in the world or that the vast majority of muslims everywhere disapprove of ISIS.
As far as violence, the highest rates, from 30%-40%, are from Palestine, Egypt, and Afghanistan (obviously concerning) whereas most other countries enjoy much more significant majorities opposing the use of violence.
Now the first link focusing on Sharia is more depressing, if not surprising. Most muslims think sharia law should be the law of the land, pretty obvious considering the laws and practices in muslim majority countries. Obviously, many tenets of sharia law are complete shit and I disagree with anyone living under them, muslim or not. Interestingly enough, among those who believe sharia law should be the law of the land for their respective countries, a majority in most countries believe it should not apply to non-muslims.
I've now typed muslim too often and the word is starting to look weird..
n/a Neon_needles 2017-01-31
"Woah, show some empathy. Islam isn't ALL bad."
"Fuck you, my grandmother was raped and murdered!"
"Well, yeah, but like, you can't blame all of Islam. Only bad people stereotype others, like a TD poster!"
Repeat that times 100x. The hypocrisy is almost too much. Yeah, there is good people, bad people, whatever, but it always is amazing some fag with a handlebar mustache will say all Islamic people are oppressed victims yet stereotype everyone in the other political party, reddit posters based on sub usage, and GamerGate.
Besides, we all know the true blight against America is those shitty Indians. God damn savages with their fruity tiny baby mustaches and five thousand dumb kids running around. Hopefully we become another Islamic country so they can be genocide.
n/a BannedFromImzy 2017-01-31
Oh I thought you meant the other kind of indian. Can we kill them too so that we don't waste time anymore trying to figure which type of indian we mean every time we speak about either kind?
n/a Neon_needles 2017-01-31
That's the beautiful thing about Islam, genocide gets way more easy. Nice totem poles there, tonto - Looks like you are going to need to experience the love of Allah (Pulls out a cool AK-47 and and smokes a huge blunt while gunning down old fat diabetic Navajo moms like a bad ass)
n/a BannedFromImzy 2017-01-31
I have an idea : let's allow refugees in but create "muslim reservations" as an experiment. Which they'll have to share with native americans. Once they get some Sharia Law going, let's see how well they get along (with the muzzies not being fans of gambling or alcohol).
n/a Neon_needles 2017-01-31
Breaking News: Reservation violence as Navajo Teen (Pictured wearing a band t-shirt saying SLAYER) found out to have goosed female Muslim teen. Islamic population in area responded by burning down his home and raping his mom after throwing acid in her face nonstop.
n/a BannedFromImzy 2017-01-31
It would be good for both sides : the injuns could freely go back to their savage roots, the muslims too. And the red man would have to at least go slower on the fire water since they'd have to keep up with the muslims who abstain.
n/a hlary 2017-01-31
But the Armenian genocide happened because of Turkic nationalism not Islam It would be like saying that because most Germans are Cristian the Holocaust happened
n/a Neon_needles 2017-01-31
I seriously hope you get genocide for this post.
n/a zwiebelhans 2017-01-31
Ah yes. Because the Ottoman Empire was so secular.
n/a hlary 2017-01-31
The Young Turks took power in 1908 my dude and they were for the most part secular
n/a zwiebelhans 2017-01-31
"Most part" but not actually.
n/a hlary 2017-01-31
"Another guiding principle for the Young Turks was the transformation of their society into one in which religion played no consequential role, a stark contrast from the theocracy that had ruled the Ottoman Empire since its inception."
How bout you take a break from your ignorance for a moment and do just a little bit of research.
n/a zwiebelhans 2017-01-31
How about you quit living in dreamland and instead visit reality. The young turks utterly failed to implement their pie in the sky ideals of secularism. Islam only grew stronger and the young turks failed.
n/a hlary 2017-01-31
So even if the leaders of the government want the country to become secular makes multiple moves twords seculartion but don't completely succeed within the short time they rule that means there not secular?
Also to say that "Islam grew stronger" (what ever that means) is quite the meme considering the ottoman empire was taken apsrt and much of the middle East was under the control of Britain and France this lead to the rise of Arab nationalism. The rise of fundementalist Islam would come with the Arab spring rebellions
n/a Minimum_T-Giraff 2017-01-31
Armenian genocide happen because many factors and Turkic nationalism wasn't the biggest of em. Probably the Armenian Question is the biggest reasons.
n/a hlary 2017-01-31
But the Armenian genocide happened because of Turkic nationalism not Islam It would be like saying that because most Germans are Cristian the Holocaust happened
n/a mikerhoa 2017-01-31
This is going to be a banner year for depressing long winded arguments that go nowhere...
n/a BannedFromImzy 2017-01-31
We'll have the occasional church/mosque/school shooter to entertain us in the meantime (and remind us that a few of the people having those online arguments are doing it with a gun handy).
n/a LukeTheFisher 2017-01-31
E D G Y
n/a MG87 2017-01-31
LOL this moron thinks that the USA will turn Islamic.
The more likely outcome(although still pretty damn unlikely) is if the Us Government implements the Christian equivalent of sharia law and god knows the Evangelicals want that to happen.
n/a bleasehalb 2017-01-31
At least the chicken sandwiches will be tasty.
n/a MG87 2017-01-31
For that to happen you would need a constitutional amendment declaring the US to be a religious state. And passing CA's is purposely difficult to do.
n/a bleasehalb 2017-01-31
I'd feel like they'd do it in less dramatic ways and go out of their way to not prosecute local governments that are de facto religious.
n/a RedditMeltsOverTrump 2017-01-31
literally doesnt exist, goddamn reddit is retarded
n/a MG87 2017-01-31
It does.
n/a SaintJason 2017-01-31
It's called the Old Testament dude which is barely looked upon.
n/a MG87 2017-01-31
Except when some Christian politician wants to oppress gays or trans people. Or wants to put the 10 commandments at a courthouse. Or wants to teach Creationism as a science, Or wants to ban porn. I mean the list goes on.
n/a RedditMeltsOverTrump 2017-01-31
the old testament literally isnt in the canon
only the new testament is christian canon
n/a SaintJason 2017-01-31
Unless Disney buys the rights.
n/a Hellkyte 2017-01-31
Actually the Old Testament is literally part of the Christian Biblical canon. What fucking snake handling revival church did you go to?
Jubilees, Macanese, and a few others (Book of Giants etc) are generally considered to be apocryphal, but most of the others are still part of the canon.
Now, their place in the canon is different then the place they exist for Jews, and the place the New Testament is held for Christians, but they are canon for lots of christian sects.
n/a CATS_in_a_car 2017-01-31
It obviously isn't when people cite Leviticus to keep gays from getting married.
n/a CucksLoveTrump 2017-01-31
The Old Testament is called the Torah fam
n/a greenrd 2017-01-31
Please tell that to the fundies who use the Old Testament to justify their hatred of teh gays and
abortionwomen who use abortion clinics.n/a Hellkyte 2017-01-31
Leviticus
n/a RedditMeltsOverTrump 2017-01-31
not canonical
n/a Hellkyte 2017-01-31
Leviticus is "not canonical"....
That's fucking brilliant.
Also did you know that "Shariah" is itself not fully canonical either? Some of it comes from the Quran sure, but quite a lot of it comes from the interpretations of religious scholars and leaders down the line.
Not unlike how Christians and Jews do it. The Jews have the most extensive version of this starting with the Midrash and all The Torah and whatnot, Christians have their own.
n/a Imgur_Lurker 2017-01-31
Amazing.
n/a Hellkyte 2017-01-31
What's amazing is that people are arguing that Christians don't use Leviticus as justifications for divine laws:
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Chapter 18 verse 22[1]
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Chapter 20 verse 13
Definitely NEVER heard a Christian reference these passages.
n/a Imgur_Lurker 2017-01-31
No wonder you can't win arguments against Christians.
You do understand the entire point of Jesus and his impact on the use of Leviticus?
Christians eat Kosher?
You see a bunch of Christians who refuse to work on the Sabbath?
n/a Hellkyte 2017-01-31
So you're saying that Christians don't use Leviticus as an argument against homosexuality?
Well shit then if that's the case I take it back because I must have had a MASSIVE head trauma earlier in my life To have misheard decades of Christian talking points.
And since I am so clueless about Christians, and arguably suffering from a head wound, perhaps you could help me out with the following.
Why do 7th day adventists not eat pork? They are Christian Right?
Why do Catholics maintain so much of the Old Testament laws, like the burning of incense in the church? Are they Christian?
Why do so many Christians still circumcise their children? Didn't Jesus die for our foreskin?
n/a Imgur_Lurker 2017-01-31
I'm saying that if you can't win that argument it's pretty sad.
http://www.anglicancommunion.org/resources/document-library/lambeth-conference/2008/section-h-human-sexuality?author=Lambeth+Conference&year=2008
Why do they believe Ellen G. White is a prophet.
They are a denomination that prefers to follow Jewish kosher rules.
Why do Shakers think Jesus has already come back.
( The Health Message is why they follow it same with staying away from "immoral" things)
They...They don't.
Not every Catholic Church burns incense.
Your American-Centric worldview is showing.
Acts 15, Galatians 5:6, and Paul.
n/a Hellkyte 2017-01-31
Ah, so your view is that 7th Day Adventists are not Christian?
It's not an absurd point, frankly. In my own tradition we view Pentecostals and Prosperity doctrines as heretical. This belies the greater point that there are a LOT of "Christian" sects that may have very deep disagreements with each other, even down to what they consider their divine laws.
Things like Kosher, Circumcision, Tithing, Homosexuality, Sabbath, etc etc etc. These all ultimately come from the Old Testament and many Christian doctrines hold that they are no longer law, but many sects still do hold them as sacred.
Should we chip and prune all of the sects that hold some Old Testament law as sacred that our personal church does not, and call what remains "True" Christianity?
To the other point though, and this is what really chaps me, I really don't get all the people arguing that the Old Testament is not "Canon". I think this stems from people not actually understanding what Biblical Canon actually means. The Old Testament was not rendered apocryphal with the New Covenant. That is NOT what canon means.
n/a Imgur_Lurker 2017-01-31
I'm Episcopalian, we don't judge people on if they are Christian or not. ( We just leave your Church and go all the way over to America)
I was waiting for you to quote the New Testament on Homosexuality so I could talk about how Paul was Greek and how even if you translated it that way it's literally just tacked onto a part about Why rejecting God lead Him to cause that group of people into depravity.
:(
The argument is that all the rules against it are over with because of Jesus and even if they weren't Jesus' other teachings about Love are way more important.
n/a RedditMeltsOverTrump 2017-01-31
dude Im not arguing over opinions. Im catholic. In order to get confirmed you have to study the cathechism of the catholic church. The officially recognized canon of the catholic church is the new testament of the holy bible.
n/a Hellkyte 2017-01-31
How is the 7th Day Adventist's keeping kosher an opinion?
You asked me to name a Christian that kept kosher.
I named a Christian that kept kosher
n/a Hellkyte 2017-01-31
Since you aren't studying the Catechism perhaps you should memorize these sections:
120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books.90 This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.91
Whoever is teaching you is not doing their job right.
n/a RedditMeltsOverTrump 2017-01-31
canon means at least 5 different things in the cathechism (i.e. canon law), of which I still have a copy of in my room
the old testament is included in the bible because it was divinely inspired (see council of trent and a bunch of other decrees)
THe old testament is NOT the authoritative religious text of the catholic church, only the new testament is.
Multiple reformations have affirmed the old testament is divinely inspired, a history of gods chosen people, lays the foundation for the coming of jesus, is a collection of wisdom, and a collection of parables.
THe catholic church even acknowledges that start of genesis is essentially a parable. This is why catholics dont believe in creationism, they believe in intelligently designed evolution (i.e. a day in genesis wasn't really a day, a day to god could be millions of years).
The new testament, which is supreme to the old testament even has multiple passages that say to disregard the laws of the old testament (this is why catholics dont sacrifice animals) the law books are kept because they were divinely inspired history books of gods people.
n/a CucksLoveTrump 2017-01-31
That's a Jewish book, not a Christian one
n/a SaintJason 2017-01-31
Since /u/sirgallantlionheart isn't here I'll take his place to say
DEUS FUCKING VULT
n/a astra118 2017-01-31
Why is it that people can criticize the catholic church for their child abuse but still understand that there are good catholics but when someone criticizes islam they are instantly deemed an islamaphobe and racist?
n/a Works_of_memercy 2017-01-31
Because people who criticize the Catholic church understand that since there are good Catholics we shouldn't oppress them all, while in the Islam case the conclusion is "but fuck them anyways", apparently. You see people criticizing Islam in support of Trump's ban, that's why they are deemed islamophobes and racists.
n/a Hellkyte 2017-01-31
Why is it that people criticize Islam for having a 6th century prophet who married a 10 year old but don't criticize Catholic priests for having sex with 10 year old boys out of wedlock.
SMH.
n/a CucksLoveTrump 2017-01-31
Because deep down we all want to be that 10 year old boy duh
n/a wobinidan 2017-01-31
People gilding that comment are literally giving money directly to Ohanian or whatever his name is. I don't think they've thought this through.
n/a BannedFromImzy 2017-01-31
Yeah the gilding is the part that jumped at me. Is it ironic? Like during blackout 2015, people gilding posts asking not to give gold to anything in protest of Reddit?
n/a LemonScore 2017-01-31
Ohanian sounds like an Irish name, which means he'll spend the money on whiskey, hastening his own death from alcohol poisoning.
n/a Orsonius 2017-01-31
damn that is a gold mine of drama, but also a mine field. Anywhere you step you gonna piss someone off.
I just always laugh when Christians try to attack other religions when theirs isn't all that great either. If they wouldn't have been neutered by the enlightenment they would be just as bad s they claim islam to be.
But here I go already stubbing my foot into a wasp nest.
n/a RedditMeltsOverTrump 2017-01-31
>redditors actually believe the "christianity is just as bad!" meme
lul
n/a atakeonhooper 2017-01-31
Christians literally invented nuclear weapons :/
n/a Orsonius 2017-01-31
both religions have the same origin and share similarly shitty scriptures.
The biggest reason why christianity right now isnt causing havoc is mostly because it was tamed and most of the western world is quite rich as well.
n/a hlary 2017-01-31
And stable which the middle East hasn't been for over a century
n/a PhysicsIsMyMistress 2017-01-31
/u/eastwood17 I wish your family had been wiped out entirely so you weren't born and couldn't post that garbage post.
n/a BannedFromImzy 2017-01-31
I should have posted it to /r/thathappened.
n/a Vinod_Paswan 2017-01-31
4 more years of this. 4 more years.
At this rate, Trump drama is gonna show up in porn subs too.
n/a theherps 2017-01-31
>video of Big Dong Don giving the old Trump tower to jewdank's asshole surfaces
Fund it
n/a CucksLoveTrump 2017-01-31
I pledged my retirement fund
MATCH ME
n/a AreYouFuckingHappy 2017-01-31
I'd fund jewdanks nazi outfit with Trump brand butt plug. Might actually make the bitch interesting.
n/a JebusGobson 2017-01-31
If those pieces of shit could stop agendaposting for three seconds, someone might be able to tell them that the Armenian-Greek genocide was an act of extremist nationalism, wherein religion played little part. The people behind it were pretty much secular, as were their motives.
But o no, the Ottoman Empire was nominally a Muslim state so it's all about Islam, right? Nice projection.
n/a moudougou 2017-01-31
wow wow easy there, you should add a warning before posting a sane comment in drama
n/a Hammer_of_truthiness 2017-01-31
Ur just salty the Ottomans beat your kill count in the Congo.
n/a JebusGobson 2017-01-31
You know me too well
n/a shamwu 2017-01-31
I was going to bring this up. The Ottomans were relatively tolerant to its minorities for hundreds of years, especially compared to its contemporaries in Europe. Only with Tanzmat and the Spring of nations did ethnic relations began to collapse further and further.
n/a whyamisoft 2017-01-31
u/-sick_sad_world-
Because Jesus was a pedo warlord who hated Jews, oh wait. You can see why Islam is so bad in modern society by looking at the terrorists, most of them aren't devout Muslims, they violate alot of the religious bans on drinking or sex and then when they reach a low point in their life they look for redemption. Now when this happens to a Christian you walk into a church and it's all forgiveness but for Muslims there's another way, one that's taught from a young age and celebrated throughout the Muslim world
n/a -sick_sad_world- 2017-01-31
Really? Any religion can be extremely abusing, even Buddhism which people praise for it's "enlightening philosophy". Jesus did not call for crusades just like Mohammed never called for war on anyone unless it's self defence. Yet both religions committed their fair share of atrocities in the name of religion. I won't say religion is innocent, it's not. But religion cannot dwell outside our minds and we have the power to reform it or worsen it.
I'm an atheist anyway, but O won't cross the line to become yet another die-hard anti-theist asshole who has nothing better to do than tell people how to live their lives.
n/a Imgur_Lurker 2017-01-31
Battle of Badr.
The three Jewish tribes of Medina.
Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf who Mohammed had killed for poetry
Banu Mustaliq
The Pagans.
n/a -sick_sad_world- 2017-01-31
I'm not here to defend some old religion, but to be clear, that verse specifically spoke of a "civil war" context.
In the same sense, I could take any bible verse in context or out of context and make Christianity look evil, I mean...
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
So yes, a Christian could come up with an x number of excuses to make these not sound so awful, so will Muslims.
Still, in this argument, we'd be cherry-picking just as much as believers do. So what's your point? Proving that Islam is blood(ier) than Christianity? Doesn't make Christianity any better, tbh.
n/a Imgur_Lurker 2017-01-31
Feel free to explain how attacking the Byzantines was self defense.
But to be clear I gave 7 other examples you've ignored because they don't fit your narrative.
Mainly that you are literally talking Judaism not Christianity.
That you are wrong about
n/a -sick_sad_world- 2017-01-31
Errrm, while most of these wars took place after Muhammad's death, they started the minute he received intelligence that the Byzantines were plotting to attack Muslims.
Yeah okay, you ignored half of what I said because they don't fit yours, so there we go. We're arguing over nothing.
Well, there are numerous historical accounts and interpretations regarding this. I could argue that just as well as anyone could argue otherwise (yours excluded, your argument wasn't that great or convincing - I suppose mine wasn't either to you). I could be wrong, you see, but that's what moderate Muslims would claim and I am glad so many are starting to take the path of religious reform rather than having their religion attacked and "eradicated" by anti-theists.
There will never be a world without religion. Its grip on political institutions may diminish, but it still plays a cultural role. The point is that trying to prove a certain religion is bloody is baseless, will consume time and energy, and is absolutely useless.
n/a Imgur_Lurker 2017-01-31
What. Why would I be talking about things not to do with Mohammad.
At least say it's because the Ghassanid Roman governor killed an Arab ambassador.
Please explain what Jesus has to do with your statement of Mohammad only acted in self defense.
Perhaps I didn't discuss it because it's Whataboutism?
Reminder that this was the entirety of your argument for the statement you made:
Unless you are talking about your argument that Islam isn't "bad" then yea, I was never arguing that.
Oh yea to be clear i'm not one of those people who thinks the vast entirety of Islam is represented by Wahhabism
Gotta get space colonization going so Atheists can have their own planet.
n/a -sick_sad_world- 2017-01-31
You seem to be anyway. I'm wasting time here. Got better things to do.
n/a Imgur_Lurker 2017-01-31
I mean sure if you want to put words in my mouth then say you are wasting time here you are welcome to beat that strawman up as much as you want.
I literally haven't talked about Islam at all just Mohammad so thanks for admitting your have no argument and bowing out.
n/a -sick_sad_world- 2017-01-31
I'm literally "meh-ing" out of here.
n/a LemonScore 2017-01-31
lol, that's a massive lie.
n/a greenrd 2017-01-31
Pretty sure that's not how terrorism works. They go to strip clubs and drink after they've decided to blow themselves up.
n/a SyrianSimba 2017-01-31
Am I supposed to fall for this two-day old account? How do we know they aren't lying?
n/a BannedFromImzy 2017-01-31
It's either a lie, or a true armenian. And I don't trust armenians to begin with.
n/a TardisTechnologist 2017-01-31
Can't tell if b8
n/a hypnozooid 2017-01-31
This post hurt a mod's feelings :(
n/a BannedFromImzy 2017-01-31
Lol and it had more upvotes than another (low effort) post in the same thread. I pretty much know which mod though.