half the people on /r/libertarian will argue with you if you say that government isn't needed to have roads. Debating with someone right now who's premise was that government was necessary for infrastructure projects like, you guessed it, the interstate roads.
That feel when you have to read a comment three times because your brain refuses to believe that it says what it says.
I'm no economist, nor do I have any experience with infrastructure. Also I'm Canadian so basically a commie to you guys.
HOWEVER, if roads and highways were monetized at their outset and privately run and charged tolls and shit, I mean, could that incentive not have been enough to get them built and maintained?
I'm just wondering if it would really have been impossible, I'm not saying it's better if it happened that way.
The problem is all NYMBY (not in my backyard) people. As I understand, the US highway system was implemented during simpler times when the dude whose house was on the planned exit from a city unto a highway was given a fair compensation, six months to move, and a concrete wall to complain to. (there's a Stephen King novel about that even).
In an AnCap/Libertarian paradise that just wouldn't work, every fucker who owns a square foot of land under the planned highway would be able to extort whatever they reasonably can without the whole project being canceled (but most often with the whole project being canceled). And that's pure losses for everyone else because the compensation for owning a crucial square foot under a planned highway doesn't correspond to any sort of useful contributions to society, unlike demanding payment for a loaf of bread you baked or whatevs.
Roads are a natural monopoly because they are exceptionally expensive and realistically how many parallel paths are there going to be between you and your destination
Also personally I for one and not interested in traveling along the ancapistan gravel i95
Highway 407 in Ontario cost about 1.6 billion dollars to build, but the easements and other costs associated with getting the land cost about $104 billion as of 1998. Btw, 104 billion in 1998 is equal to $139,767,798,466.59 in 2013 (all in CAD).
Now, in 2013 highway 407 made about $800 million in total revenue and spent $130 million in operating costs. (This is the best year I can find for them so let's be generous and assume their best year is their usual profit).
Let's be generous again and not account for inflation in the construction costs. All in all, roughly it would take about 211 years to actually break even on the real construction costs and in Libertorpia the entire project would be scrapped if anyone decided that they didn't want to sell their land to you. That's why governments build roads instead of private companies, they'll never be profitable but they're an economic benefit so the government pays for it. Roads are like a loss leader, yeah you don't make money off of them but they generate enough of an economic benefit in other places that they're worth it.
Libertarians usually will take this moment to squeal that "The gubbmint spends too much, we can do it cheaper!" but;
a) the majority of money spent on the 407 was simply getting access to the needed land and actual construction costs were a fraction of that.
b) people might just not sell their land to a private company, and without a little thing called "eminent domain" RoadCo would be shit out of luck
c) cheaper materials and shoddy construction drives up maintenance costs insanely and drastically reduces your profit. You either pay high maintenance costs or get sued constantly for bent rims, broken suspension components, and destroyed tires. Plus, who would pay a lot for a shitty road? You can't just jack up the price on a pothole filled highway and assume people will pay it. They'll sooner break the plate reading cameras than pay to use a shot road.
d) Unless you'll murder or steal the land necessary, you'll be the landowners bitch through all of this.
Fun fact: The consortium that runs the 407 can charge whatever they want and they don't have to pay any property taxes, so unless RoadCo can also get that deal too, they would have to pay property taxes on whatever roads they built which would further reduce profits.
HOWEVER, if roads and highways were monetized at their outset and privately run and charged tolls and shit, I mean, could that incentive not have been enough to get them built and maintained?
211 years is an absolutely absurd length of time necessary to recoup your investment. Hell, even if they paid $0 in construction costs it would take 209 years just to recover the costs of acquiring the land. So unless you're going to literally murder people who won't sell their property to you and/or threaten them into selling it for far below market value, private roads will never economically make sense.
The consortium who holds the lease for the 407 paid $3.1 billion for it because Harris is literally a corporate gimp. They only make money because they didn't have to pay for the costs associated with getting land rights. The 407 now only is only worth about $9 billion if we assume that the $894 million that CPP paid for a 10% stake represents the true value of it. So basically the 407 cost Ontario $140 billion, and it seems to only really be worth $9 billion.
Now, just looking at these numbers...it doesn't seem to make a damn bit of sense how RoadCo could successfully build roads. Most of the land needed for the 407 was taken in 1973, back in the days when they gave you notice they were taking your land, they sent you a check for market value, and you had a wall to complain to about the whole situation.
Since I'm ranting, remember how everyone rightfully is pissed at the Ontario liberals for wasting $1.1 billion on that gas plant? Well Harris costs Ontario the equivalent of 127 gas plants with his 407 bullshit, yet oddly no one seems to care about that. Honestly, Ontario has no good party left, the liberals and conservatives are equally retarded, and the NDP has their heads so high in the clouds they forgot what the ground looks like.
No problem, the way I see it either I take the time to actually answer the question or some libertarian or ancap will come along with some "In a perfect world" bs without any real world examples to back it up with.
Whenever you see any politician go and talk about how the government shouldn't be in business and how things should be privatized instead just remember this. Another great examples is the Skydome which cost $966 million to build, which Rogers bought for $25 million in 2004. Just think about that, land right on the waterfront, directly under the CN Tower was sold for $25 million. That is absolutely insane considering Toronto real estate even then, hell the goddamn foundation for the Skydome cost about $50 million just to make.
Anytime ANY politician tells you that the government needs to sell off its assets, there is a 1,000% chance that they're pillaging our country and selling off valuable assets to their friends in sweetheart deals. Remember how Hudak wanted to sell off the LCBO until he realized that it would cripple Ontario and then put out a plan to "improve" it? Anyone eager to sell things off before attempting to fix them is openly corrupt and will end up "consulting" or straight up working for the companies that get these screaming deals.
It's the other way around. If anarcho-capitalism starts gaining traction, right-wing militias will fill the vacuum left by the government and will be able to enact a racialist agenda (just as Ron Paul intended).
Maybe the altright is right about one thing though, people flooding your dwelling can drastically effect the community and its values. You guys that whine about them all the time sure do a good job of making their points for them.
To be fair, feminine women love their men being 'observably' dominant (what ultimately happens in the meta is a different question, as very astute feminine women see their masculine men as amplifying their passive power).
28 comments
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-03-19
Bonus: ancaps realize that someone has been spreading truths about them: https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/5zxher/ancap_problems/
n/a Works_of_memercy 2017-03-19
That feel when you have to read a comment three times because your brain refuses to believe that it says what it says.
n/a Bucklar 2017-03-19
I'm no economist, nor do I have any experience with infrastructure. Also I'm Canadian so basically a commie to you guys.
HOWEVER, if roads and highways were monetized at their outset and privately run and charged tolls and shit, I mean, could that incentive not have been enough to get them built and maintained?
I'm just wondering if it would really have been impossible, I'm not saying it's better if it happened that way.
n/a Works_of_memercy 2017-03-19
The problem is all NYMBY (not in my backyard) people. As I understand, the US highway system was implemented during simpler times when the dude whose house was on the planned exit from a city unto a highway was given a fair compensation, six months to move, and a concrete wall to complain to. (there's a Stephen King novel about that even).
In an AnCap/Libertarian paradise that just wouldn't work, every fucker who owns a square foot of land under the planned highway would be able to extort whatever they reasonably can without the whole project being canceled (but most often with the whole project being canceled). And that's pure losses for everyone else because the compensation for owning a crucial square foot under a planned highway doesn't correspond to any sort of useful contributions to society, unlike demanding payment for a loaf of bread you baked or whatevs.
n/a Will0saurus 2017-03-19
stopping at a toll booth every 10 meters wouldn't be a great way to travel imo
n/a Bucklar 2017-03-19
I fully agree. Hence...
n/a Will0saurus 2017-03-19
Its settled then :)
n/a Bucklar 2017-03-19
Just so.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-03-19
Where's that 4chan story about the gold cubes and toll highways?
n/a 0185920572 2017-03-19
Idk which one you're talking about, but if it's 4chan greentexts about libertarian paradises here's a couple good ones.
n/a fingerpaintswithpoop 2017-03-19
Idk which one you're talking about, but if it's 4chan greentexts about libertarian paradises here's a couple good ones.
n/a Danthon 2017-03-19
Roads are a natural monopoly because they are exceptionally expensive and realistically how many parallel paths are there going to be between you and your destination
Also personally I for one and not interested in traveling along the ancapistan gravel i95
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-03-19
Implying it won't literally be asphalt spread over dirt.
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-03-19
Highway 407 in Ontario cost about 1.6 billion dollars to build, but the easements and other costs associated with getting the land cost about $104 billion as of 1998. Btw, 104 billion in 1998 is equal to $139,767,798,466.59 in 2013 (all in CAD).
Now, in 2013 highway 407 made about $800 million in total revenue and spent $130 million in operating costs. (This is the best year I can find for them so let's be generous and assume their best year is their usual profit).
Let's be generous again and not account for inflation in the construction costs. All in all, roughly it would take about 211 years to actually break even on the real construction costs and in Libertorpia the entire project would be scrapped if anyone decided that they didn't want to sell their land to you. That's why governments build roads instead of private companies, they'll never be profitable but they're an economic benefit so the government pays for it. Roads are like a loss leader, yeah you don't make money off of them but they generate enough of an economic benefit in other places that they're worth it.
Libertarians usually will take this moment to squeal that "The gubbmint spends too much, we can do it cheaper!" but;
a) the majority of money spent on the 407 was simply getting access to the needed land and actual construction costs were a fraction of that.
b) people might just not sell their land to a private company, and without a little thing called "eminent domain" RoadCo would be shit out of luck
c) cheaper materials and shoddy construction drives up maintenance costs insanely and drastically reduces your profit. You either pay high maintenance costs or get sued constantly for bent rims, broken suspension components, and destroyed tires. Plus, who would pay a lot for a shitty road? You can't just jack up the price on a pothole filled highway and assume people will pay it. They'll sooner break the plate reading cameras than pay to use a shot road.
d) Unless you'll murder or steal the land necessary, you'll be the landowners bitch through all of this.
Fun fact: The consortium that runs the 407 can charge whatever they want and they don't have to pay any property taxes, so unless RoadCo can also get that deal too, they would have to pay property taxes on whatever roads they built which would further reduce profits.
211 years is an absolutely absurd length of time necessary to recoup your investment. Hell, even if they paid $0 in construction costs it would take 209 years just to recover the costs of acquiring the land. So unless you're going to literally murder people who won't sell their property to you and/or threaten them into selling it for far below market value, private roads will never economically make sense.
The consortium who holds the lease for the 407 paid $3.1 billion for it because Harris is literally a corporate gimp. They only make money because they didn't have to pay for the costs associated with getting land rights. The 407 now only is only worth about $9 billion if we assume that the $894 million that CPP paid for a 10% stake represents the true value of it. So basically the 407 cost Ontario $140 billion, and it seems to only really be worth $9 billion.
Now, just looking at these numbers...it doesn't seem to make a damn bit of sense how RoadCo could successfully build roads. Most of the land needed for the 407 was taken in 1973, back in the days when they gave you notice they were taking your land, they sent you a check for market value, and you had a wall to complain to about the whole situation.
Since I'm ranting, remember how everyone rightfully is pissed at the Ontario liberals for wasting $1.1 billion on that gas plant? Well Harris costs Ontario the equivalent of 127 gas plants with his 407 bullshit, yet oddly no one seems to care about that. Honestly, Ontario has no good party left, the liberals and conservatives are equally retarded, and the NDP has their heads so high in the clouds they forgot what the ground looks like.
n/a Bucklar 2017-03-19
That was enormously informative, thanks for taking my question as sincere curiosity and giving it that much attention.
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-03-19
No problem, the way I see it either I take the time to actually answer the question or some libertarian or ancap will come along with some "In a perfect world" bs without any real world examples to back it up with.
Whenever you see any politician go and talk about how the government shouldn't be in business and how things should be privatized instead just remember this. Another great examples is the Skydome which cost $966 million to build, which Rogers bought for $25 million in 2004. Just think about that, land right on the waterfront, directly under the CN Tower was sold for $25 million. That is absolutely insane considering Toronto real estate even then, hell the goddamn foundation for the Skydome cost about $50 million just to make.
Anytime ANY politician tells you that the government needs to sell off its assets, there is a 1,000% chance that they're pillaging our country and selling off valuable assets to their friends in sweetheart deals. Remember how Hudak wanted to sell off the LCBO until he realized that it would cripple Ontario and then put out a plan to "improve" it? Anyone eager to sell things off before attempting to fix them is openly corrupt and will end up "consulting" or straight up working for the companies that get these screaming deals.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-03-19
Check out my ROI boys, it's half a percent, are you impressed?
n/a SnapshillBot 2017-03-19
Did you know that the bathtub was first marketed in north america as a horse trough and dog scalder?
Snapshots:
I am a bot. (Info / Contact)
n/a ichthyophis 2017-03-19
It's funny because they'd be the first to go if there's any civil war
n/a 80BAIT08 2017-03-19
As long as they keep showing up to smash up leftists with sticks in kilts.
n/a MoneySanders 2017-03-19
"We want to purge our countries off all non-white Christians, you want us to post about it somewhere else. Aren't we basically the same?"
God damn those people are retarded.
n/a Chewie10 2017-03-19
Its another "Tankies pretend to be ancaps" episode
everyone knows thisis the progression that right wingers on the internet take, they are just in the libertarian/ancap phase
n/a blackbluegrey 2017-03-19
How is "tumblr" more fash than "cultural marxism" and "race and intelligence"?
n/a GhostofRFS 2017-03-19
Hilarious.
n/a Choozadoodle 2017-03-19
Lol, of bronze and fire is one of like 3 neo nazis who regularly post on that board
n/a bleasehalb 2017-03-19
How does guberment sponsored nationalism help achieve anarcho capitalism in any way?
n/a UmmahSultan 2017-03-19
It's the other way around. If anarcho-capitalism starts gaining traction, right-wing militias will fill the vacuum left by the government and will be able to enact a racialist agenda (just as Ron Paul intended).
n/a Thhueros 2017-03-19
>tfw /r/altright is banned and all the nazis decide to come to your sub
relly makes u think
n/a ironicshitpostr 2017-03-19
Heh.
n/a glmox 2017-03-19
imagine being this much of a fuckin nerd lmao
n/a Kangewalter 2017-03-19
This thread is a violation of the NAP. Recreational ICBM launch protocols have been initiated.