I hate this sites shitty culture that nurtures this way of thinking. A rape will haunt you forever and i cannot imagine the struggle and burden that victims of rape endure then the stigma attached to it by arseholes like these. But yes, being falsely accused must be much much worse. Because you certainly can't move on from it.
If you're falsely convicted of rape, then get raped in prison, isn't this de facto worse than just being raped?
If you're raped then put in jail and wind up being raped there, isn't that worse than being falsely accused of rape, but actually raping someone in jail?
I mean if you're faced with the hypothetical choice of being raped or spending a decade in prison, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people would choose rape.
hey /u/Spentworth sorry to interrupt your little whine session but i've been raped (more than once) and i'd still rather go through that again than forever have a rape accusation against my name
To start off, really sorry for what you went through and hope you're doing okay.
Onto your point, I know many who would disagree from their own personal experiences, but how are we supposed to continue from this impasse? Turning this into some stand-off between your experiences and their experiences just seems harmful to both sides and cheapens the whole thing into some kind mudslinging contest.
Obviously false rape allegations are terrible and there are things such as pre-conviction anonymity mentioned elsewhere in this thread that should be upheld as matter of precaution for those rare circumstances where false allegations are made. But... Big but. Rape is a very serious crime that does ruin many lives. If we want to have a functioning society an effective justice system is key. I'd rather live in a society that was harsh on rape as a crime than one where rape become normative, such as South Africa.
Admittedly, rape will often be harder to prove beyond reasonable doubt than, say, murder, which turns up far more dramatic physical evidence, but the rule of law is a cornerstone of civilisation, and part of the cost of living in a civilised, peaceful society is opening ourselves up to the possibility of being unfortunately falsely convicted of crimes we didn't commit. It's a trade off between freedom and safety, but I think that, in this instance, safety is the right option to choose.
people think this way because of people like you
As for this last part, I think the main problem is witch hunting in society in general. A classic example is Reddit 'tracking down' the Boston Marathon bomber, only to find out they identified the wrong guy and ruined his life. We're too ready to take justice into our own vigilante (even if somewhat benign) hands, which leads to the ruining of lives for many on the counts of all sorts of crimes.
Anyway, hope this cleared up my views which were hastily compressed into circle-queefing in what is a circle-queefing sub (SRS).
My original comment on that thread was actually relating to another comment in the linked thread which was basically postulating that there was some giant, ludicrous conspiracy in feminist circles wherein people would pretend they had been raped just to 'make a career' in feminist leaning magazines and blogs.
As for this last part, I think the main problem is witch hunting in society in general.
As the OP, I'll bite: Your earlier statements about how the seriousness of rape justifies a lower evidentiary standard makes your concerns about "witch hunting" difficult to take seriously.
Also, maybe my values are fundamentally unlike yours...
This is a fair acknowledgement as we may never come to an agreement no matter how much we discuss this. (Though, the best place to go to actually see if your view can be changed might be r/changemyview, I'm always impressed by how good the arguments are over there.)
but a rape conviction in America means you're the modern day equivalent of an untouchable.
Isn't this just a problem for ex-cons in general in the US, maybe those convicted of rape more-so, but the US, and I suppose the rest of the Western world in general is pretty unforgiving to all ex-cons. I think the whole shows a lack of faith in the justice system's ability to rehabilitate. If there was less animosity towards ex-cons in general and more faith in the justice system's ability to rehabilitate
- maybe after an overhaul of the whole thing or something - do you think this would be less of an issue?
If we want to have a functioning society an effective justice system is key.
Correct. But I would think accurately determining whether or not someone committed a crime would be part of the criteria for "Effective," as well as ensuring innocent people are not punished for something they did not do.
I'd rather live in a society that was harsh on rape as a crime than one where rape become normative, such as South Africa.
A society can be harsh on rape as a crime while also ensuring innocent people are not punished by the justice system.
and part of the cost of living in a civilised, peaceful society is opening ourselves up to the possibility of being unfortunately falsely convicted of crimes we didn't commit.
And part of the cost of living in a civilized and just society is the acceptance that sometimes guilty people will go free. The people who raped me? They did not and never will face justice for what they did. And I can live with that much more comfortably than I could live with an innocent person going down for their crimes.
It's a trade off between freedom and safety, but I think that, in this instance, safety is the right option to choose.
Why does someone falsely accused not deserve safety? Or freedom? Why are you not concerned about them?
To look at it from a utilitarian perspective, there's a utility function weighing up the damage caused by false convictions and the damage done by rape and minimising it is the key. I think it's an unfortunate but fair assumption to suggest that there will always be some guilty who walk free and some innocent who are convicted.
And I can live with that much more comfortably than I could live with an innocent person going down for their crimes.
I think this is where we differ. I would put more slightly more weighting on the convicting the guilty term of the function (the mathematician in me has started poking through) and would put less on the minimising false convictions part and this is just because I believe rape is, in general, more harmful than false conviction and that we're currently too lenient from the perspective of justice.
Until we agree on the 'which is the more harmful' I don't think we can reach agreement.
But your stance is fundamentally at odds with Blackstone's formulation, the foundational principle of modern jurisprudence. It is pure hubris to stand in opposition to centuries of established and accepted law because of some "utilitarian" "mathematics" that prioritizes convictions instead of disproportionate protection for the innocent.
I believe rape is, in general, more harmful than false conviction
It isn't, though. If you are assaulted, you'll be traumatized but you won't be imprisoned, you won't have the rest of your life micromanaged by court order, and you'll at least have the individual freedom to put your life back together.
60 comments
n/a SnapshillBot 2017-04-14
MRW
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n/a PoorLilMarco 2017-04-14
np
Ew
n/a HuckleberryFN2187 2017-04-14
Sorry I was browsing in np and forgot to switch back.
n/a zester90 2017-04-14
That is unforgivable.
n/a HuckleberryFN2187 2017-04-14
wait so have i been banned?
n/a zester90 2017-04-14
Sure, why not?
n/a HuckleberryFN2187 2017-04-14
And I get a special cocaine flair too?
n/a Nomadlads 2017-04-14
y tho
n/a HuckleberryFN2187 2017-04-14
got distracted by the smell of tendies
n/a Nomadlads 2017-04-14
That's understandable.
n/a SuperShake66652 2017-04-14
Time to KYS, you bring great shame to famiry.
n/a SmurfPrivilege 2017-04-14
If you're falsely convicted of rape, then get raped in prison, isn't this de facto worse than just being raped?
n/a ur_mom_IoI 2017-04-14
if you're falsely accused of rape but you actually raped someone else is that worse than being raped?
n/a Senator_Chickpea 2017-04-14
If you're raped then put in jail and wind up being raped there, isn't that worse than being falsely accused of rape, but actually raping someone in jail?
n/a Ennui2778 2017-04-14
No, because you still have your white male privilege.
Fucking DUH.
n/a SHIT_FOUNTAIN 2017-04-14
What someone who is neither white nor male is falsely accused of rape?
Checkmate.
n/a Ennui2778 2017-04-14
Rape = Penetration + Power. POCs can only culturally enrich. Only a white male can rape.
n/a heartfullofhatred 2017-04-14
They get German citizenship
n/a atakeonhooper 2017-04-14
Boi.
n/a mmzznnxx 2017-04-14
I like how the crux of their argument applies to anything outside of murder.
n/a zester90 2017-04-14
I mean if you're faced with the hypothetical choice of being raped or spending a decade in prison, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people would choose rape.
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-04-14
uggghhh gross i can't even
n/a UncleSamuel 2017-04-14
https://i.imgur.com/JaVsm1Q.png
-UncleSamuel
n/a Tiammatt 2017-04-14
You know the person who did the first report fucking loves when the retards at t_d do something and we laugh at it.
n/a UncleSamuel 2017-04-14
https://i.imgur.com/NYrylua.png
-UncleSamuel
n/a AGayOpinion 2017-04-14
SRS is a right-wing psy-op
n/a 420megabro 2017-04-14
It's safe to assume most things are
n/a PM_ME_HAIRLESS_CATS 2017-04-14
at last it makes sense
n/a BlackPeopleEmoji 2017-04-14
The only annoying thing about getting raped is that it really aggravates my hemhorroids.
Rapists usually really know how to hit your g spot tbh
n/a nomad1c 2017-04-14
hey /u/Spentworth sorry to interrupt your little whine session but i've been raped (more than once) and i'd still rather go through that again than forever have a rape accusation against my name
people think this way because of people like you
n/a feafmeamf 2017-04-14
Yeah, same.
n/a Spentworth 2017-04-14
To start off, really sorry for what you went through and hope you're doing okay.
Onto your point, I know many who would disagree from their own personal experiences, but how are we supposed to continue from this impasse? Turning this into some stand-off between your experiences and their experiences just seems harmful to both sides and cheapens the whole thing into some kind mudslinging contest.
Obviously false rape allegations are terrible and there are things such as pre-conviction anonymity mentioned elsewhere in this thread that should be upheld as matter of precaution for those rare circumstances where false allegations are made. But... Big but. Rape is a very serious crime that does ruin many lives. If we want to have a functioning society an effective justice system is key. I'd rather live in a society that was harsh on rape as a crime than one where rape become normative, such as South Africa.
Admittedly, rape will often be harder to prove beyond reasonable doubt than, say, murder, which turns up far more dramatic physical evidence, but the rule of law is a cornerstone of civilisation, and part of the cost of living in a civilised, peaceful society is opening ourselves up to the possibility of being unfortunately falsely convicted of crimes we didn't commit. It's a trade off between freedom and safety, but I think that, in this instance, safety is the right option to choose.
Anyway, hope this cleared up my views which were hastily compressed into circle-queefing in what is a circle-queefing sub (SRS).
My original comment on that thread was actually relating to another comment in the linked thread which was basically postulating that there was some giant, ludicrous conspiracy in feminist circles wherein people would pretend they had been raped just to 'make a career' in feminist leaning magazines and blogs.
n/a JohnTheOrc 2017-04-14
I didn't.
n/a Spentworth 2017-04-14
Oh well.
n/a jubbergun 2017-04-14
It didn't even provide any new copypasta. I am disappoint.
n/a Spentworth 2017-04-14
Sorry, I can try again.
n/a Dial_A_Dragon 2017-04-14
This is word rape.
n/a Spentworth 2017-04-14
Cheers, I try.
n/a EvanHarper 2017-04-14
http://i.imgur.com/4axeQxL.jpg
n/a Spentworth 2017-04-14
Does this mean I win the argument? Ooh, this is fun.
n/a yetanothercfcgrunt 2017-04-14
Yes. A core tenet of that is the principle that false convictions are to be avoided as much as possible.
n/a HuckleberryFN2187 2017-04-14
As the OP, I'll bite: Your earlier statements about how the seriousness of rape justifies a lower evidentiary standard makes your concerns about "witch hunting" difficult to take seriously.
n/a odintal 2017-04-14
Posting to SRS makes the concerns for witch hunting burn at the stake. The sub is built around witch hunts and making mountains of mole hills.
n/a Spentworth 2017-04-14
This is a fair acknowledgement as we may never come to an agreement no matter how much we discuss this. (Though, the best place to go to actually see if your view can be changed might be r/changemyview, I'm always impressed by how good the arguments are over there.)
Isn't this just a problem for ex-cons in general in the US, maybe those convicted of rape more-so, but the US, and I suppose the rest of the Western world in general is pretty unforgiving to all ex-cons. I think the whole shows a lack of faith in the justice system's ability to rehabilitate. If there was less animosity towards ex-cons in general and more faith in the justice system's ability to rehabilitate - maybe after an overhaul of the whole thing or something - do you think this would be less of an issue?
n/a HuckleberryFN2187 2017-04-14
Rob a bank and you won't go into a public database upon release.
n/a feafmeamf 2017-04-14
Correct. But I would think accurately determining whether or not someone committed a crime would be part of the criteria for "Effective," as well as ensuring innocent people are not punished for something they did not do.
A society can be harsh on rape as a crime while also ensuring innocent people are not punished by the justice system.
And part of the cost of living in a civilized and just society is the acceptance that sometimes guilty people will go free. The people who raped me? They did not and never will face justice for what they did. And I can live with that much more comfortably than I could live with an innocent person going down for their crimes.
Why does someone falsely accused not deserve safety? Or freedom? Why are you not concerned about them?
n/a Spentworth 2017-04-14
To look at it from a utilitarian perspective, there's a utility function weighing up the damage caused by false convictions and the damage done by rape and minimising it is the key. I think it's an unfortunate but fair assumption to suggest that there will always be some guilty who walk free and some innocent who are convicted.
I think this is where we differ. I would put more slightly more weighting on the convicting the guilty term of the function (the mathematician in me has started poking through) and would put less on the minimising false convictions part and this is just because I believe rape is, in general, more harmful than false conviction and that we're currently too lenient from the perspective of justice.
Until we agree on the 'which is the more harmful' I don't think we can reach agreement.
n/a bunch_of_sticks 2017-04-14
But your stance is fundamentally at odds with Blackstone's formulation, the foundational principle of modern jurisprudence. It is pure hubris to stand in opposition to centuries of established and accepted law because of some "utilitarian" "mathematics" that prioritizes convictions instead of disproportionate protection for the innocent.
n/a Spentworth 2017-04-14
What can I say? I don't agree with Blackstone.
Hyperbole much.
n/a HuckleberryFN2187 2017-04-14
It isn't, though. If you are assaulted, you'll be traumatized but you won't be imprisoned, you won't have the rest of your life micromanaged by court order, and you'll at least have the individual freedom to put your life back together.
n/a Wraith_GraveSpell 2017-04-14
Man that's a lot of words just to say that men all should chop their dicks off. Makes sense y'all are such big cheerleaders for MtF trannies.
n/a Spentworth 2017-04-14
Yeah, I was thinking of just writing that over and over again but thought 'hey, maybe I'd shake it up a little.'
n/a CarnistHappyCamp 2017-04-14
Totally, plus it gets easier after the third or fourth time.
n/a Spentworth 2017-04-14
Out of curiosity, why choose me over everyone else in the thread?
n/a Spentworth 2017-04-14
Out of curiosity, why choose me over everyone else in the thread?
n/a EvanHarper 2017-04-14
what the fuck is this you're just linking a random SRS thread
kys
n/a lifesbrink 2017-04-14
Everyone likes their low-hanging fruit on occasion
n/a HuckleberryFN2187 2017-04-14
I got a cool cocaine themed flair as a prize though. Totally worth it.
n/a John_Ketch 2017-04-14
Sorry, we just picked a thread from your browsing history.
n/a AwwUrCute_hun 2017-04-14
u/Ifeelromantic how does it feel to be autistic
n/a IFeelRomantic 2017-04-14
That was really the best you had? X-D
n/a AwwUrCute_hun 2017-04-14
Pretty sure drunk me on Friday night has the wit of a negro or mildly retarded Asian. I'll try harder next time!