You know what fucks up an average people's day more than a traffic jam?
Fucking Nazis
/u/SuburbanDinosaur I have to be honest, one of the reasons people don't like like antifas is because, no, very few average people alive today have their day fucked up by a Nazi.
Almost everyone has experienced the annoyance of a traffic jam, though.
I mean, that was my point. Everyone experiences traffic jams, they're not a big deal. Being killed by a right-wing radical who drove to NY with a sword to "kill black people" is though.
don't like like antifas is because, no, very few average people alive today have their day fucked up by a Nazi.
Well, some people actually have empathy for those that do.
Damn dude, you got me, I was just murdering bigggers. Here I was thinking I was not a nazi, it you're right. I guess since we all murder niggers for fun were all nazis.
Ah yes, I'm sure these basement dwelling Nazis are all over the place, killing and committing genocide, all without revealing themselves! Wait, does that mean they know magic?
A couple months ago there was someone who was legitimately worried that the Alt-Right were corrupting dark magic or some shit to make Trump win. I can't find the thread now but some people legitimately believe that they now magic.
Well, some people actually have empathy for those that do.
#1 Where is this widespread Nazi violence? It exists, yes. So does anarchist violence. Neither are very widespread, though.
#2 You moved the goalposts. Your initial point was that Nazis "fuck up an average people's day" now it's just that you have empathy for the extremely fucking rare people whose day is fucked up?
#3 How are you still not understanding that people can hate Nazis but still think Antifa are fucking dipshits who aren't sympathetic? You continue to try to make it this "If you're not with us, you're against us" type thing and no matter how often people tell you that that's not how it works, you insist on trying to make it that way. Why?
You moved the goalposts. Your initial point was that Nazis "fuck up an average people's day" now it's just that you have empathy for the extremely fucking rare people whose day is fucked up?
Fair, I didn't elucidate my point well enough. My point was that when allowed to grow/gain power unchecked, nazis will fuck up an average person's day a lot more than a traffic jam will. The second point being that just because something isn't likely to happen to you doesn't mean you shouldn't care about it or fight to change it.
How are you still not understanding that people can hate Nazis but still think Antifa are fucking dipshits who aren't sympathetic?
I do understand that.
You continue to try to make it this "If you're not with us, you're against us" type thing
I'm not doing that, either. There's a lot of leftists who disagree with antifa's methods as well. My only point here is that nazis/white supremacy has to be stopped at every turn, and lot of people on reddit think that ignoring it means that it will go away.
You cited four attacks in the US. We see the same shit from the antifa. Again: my point isn't to defend Nazis, it's so point that extremists are fucking assholes on both sides, so don't expect us to side with one to fight another.
Why is that comparative to white supremacists murdering people? People get beat up for less than that at bars every Saturday.
You cited four murders.
To paraphrase a great man: "People get murdered for less in big cities every Saturday."
Neither of these movements are a large scale threat. They're just not. The threat is that motherfuckers think political violence on the street is a rational response to them. Again paraphrasing a great mind: "It's just not."
For real /u/SuburbanDinosaur, how can you downplay violence as not much in the larger scheme of violence but screech about murder that's not much in the larger scheme of murder?
No one here- or very few, anyway- wants to defend Nazis. But you can't go around attacking people for gathering and expect that people will defend you. Instead, you're seeing people (rhetorically) attack you because you're instigating violence. Stop doing that.
Wait dude, you can't say that the violence on the left isn't anything more than happens over a weekend and then pretend that a couple murders are anything more.
They're both small potatoes, so why is one super concerning to you but the other isn't?
Because one is a response to the other. The left isn't shooting up Christians in the name of atheism or whatever the way white supremacists are murdering people because they're black.
Let me put it this way. A white supremacist pulls a gun on a black person and says "subhuman scum, time to die." Black person pepper sprays them and punches them in the face.
Is that pepper-spraying and punching equally concerning to you as the attempted murder?
Self-defense is one thing, and preemptive strikes against probable bigots is another. When ten people in a group of hundreds of thousands go out and kill people, you can't justify beating up someone wearing a MAGA hat or head scarf because 'that person meant me harm' when you're just scared of that person's group.
I don't know if I like the serious posting here, but I do like we're just not calling /u/suburbandinosaur names since he's nice enough to respond in good faith if we are.
No, it wasn't. It was specifically in reference to Nathan Damigo punching a counter protestor. I pointed out that /r/public_freakout really shouldn't be reveling in Damigos punching, because he's a violent felon and white supremacist.
It was specifically in reference to Nathan Damigo punching a counter protestor. I pointed out that /r/public_freakout really shouldn't be reveling in Damigos punching, because he's a violent felon and white supremacist.
I don't think anyone was "reveling in Damigos punching" so much as they were indulging in a bit of schadenfreude over Moldylocks getting popped after lobbing bottles at people.
There wasn't any proof of that, though, so really, a bunch of people were doxxing and hating on a specific representation of the protestors at Berkeley.
urther, read the thread. There absolutely was.
Shit like "these leftists asked for this, they can't stop what's coming" type bullshit. She was doxxed and harassed.
But yet, people deemed the literal Nazi who has gone to jail for violent hate crime the hero of the situation.
a bunch of people were doxxing and hating on a specific representation of the protestors at Berkeley...Shit like "these leftists asked for this, they can't stop what's coming" type bullshit. She was doxxed and harassed.
People committing criminal acts like vandalism or assault and battery don't deserve the benefit of anonymity when they're only using it to get away with criminal behavior. If the "legitimate" protesters at Berkeley don't want to be disregarded or defamed for being associated with antifa scum then they should police their ranks and give the boot to antifa scum. I don't have any sympathy for people who show up to commit acts of violence getting hurt when their victims defend themselves, even when the victim engaging in self-defense is some filthy neo-Nazi.
But yet, people deemed the literal Nazi who has gone to jail for violent hate crime the hero of the situation. Why do you think that is?
It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to puzzle that one out, Dr. Einstein. Most reasonable people disagree with the skinhead, but we're Americans and we believe that even though he's an idiot he has every right to go out in public and tell people exactly what sort of an idiot he is. He doesn't get any sympathy until some equally reprehensible moron shows up and interrupts his public confession of his own stupidity by engaging in physical violence. We still don't like the asshole, but tossing bottles and punches at him isn't acceptable behavior so long as all he is doing is marching/assembling/speaking.
Let me make this simple by explaining when it is acceptable to "bash the fash." Is "the fash" saying something you don't like? Too bad, words are not an excuse to "bash the fash." Is "the fash" occupying a space you feel they should be forbidden to enter? Unless you're a law enforcement official dealing with a trespassing complaint the answer is "no bash." Is "the fash" committing an act of physical violence against you or someone else? Then yes, please feel free to "bash the fash."
Otherwise, all you're doing is repeating history and garnering sympathy for people you don't like, just like the socialist and communists did when they publicly attacked the Brownshirts in Germany in the 30s.
She was caught on camera with the bottle in her hand.
So what? Lots of people carry bottles around, especially in hot places like California. Carrying a bottle isn't a crime.
I don't have any sympathy for people who show up to commit acts of violence getting hurt when their victims defend themselves, even when the victim engaging in self-defense is some filthy neo-Nazi.
Oh, so you support doxxing? Nice.
Is "the fash" committing an act of physical violence against you or someone else? Then yes, please feel free to "bash the fash."
Good, because that's exactly what I'm talking about. We have, on video, fash committing acts of violence, yet here you are defending them anyway.
So what? Lots of people carry bottles around, especially in hot places like California. Carrying a bottle isn't a crime.
You can deflect all you want, guy. She made a public statement about collecting scalps, indicating that she was going to the event seeking conflict. She was seen tossing bottles. She was with a group tossing explosives. You know as well as anyone else that empty bottle she was holding had nothing to do with the heat or slaking her thirst. You might willingly believe the lies you're telling yourself. The rest of us don't.
Oh, so you support doxxing? Nice.
I support exposing the identity of people involved in criminal acts. There's a big difference between that and "doxxing" people to intimidate them into silence or conformity.
We have, on video, fash committing acts of violence
Acting in self defense isn't the same as the unprovoked acts of violence in which the black block retards were engaged. Moldylocks was an active participant in a group throwing bottles and explosives at peaceful protesters. Those peaceful protesters had every right to engage their attackers to stop the attack. What your antifa pals were doing was not acceptable self defense. It was an act of aggression.
That's not deflection, pal. Deflection is avoiding the topic by bringing up unrelated matters. Pointing out that carrying a bottle isn't a crime isn't deflection, it's pointing out that you're twisting a very common thing into evidence to support your narrative.
She was seen tossing bottles. She was with a group tossing explosives.
Source?
You might willingly believe the lies you're telling yourself. The rest of us don't.
I'm asking for proper evidence. You're the only one making any claims here. Without evidence for them, might I add.
She made a public statement about collecting scalps
She quoted Inglorious Basterds. You know, the dramedy? It's a meme.
I support exposing the identity of people involved in criminal acts
So you'd support the doxxing the Nathan Damigo's of this rally? Because he's been to jail for violent hate crime.
Acting in self defense isn't the same as the unprovoked acts of violence
It is acting in self-defense when violent criminals like Nathan Damigo start harassing your community.
So you'd support the doxxing the Nathan Damigo's of this rally?
In the first place, I don't have to support doxxing them because, unlike the useful idiots you support, they had the intestinal fortitude to show up without a mask. In the second place, they didn't commit any crimes.
It is acting in self-defense when violent criminals like Nathan Damigo start harassing your community.
No, it's not, especially since antifa isn't a part of any legitimate community.
You don't understand what deflection is. At this point, I'm just to assume that you cannot actually respond to those points, so you've regressed into falsely labeling everything "deflection".
they had the intestinal fortitude to show up without a mask.
What does that have to do with anything? People like Damigo and his internet hate crew like to dox and harass counter protestors families, so wearing a mask is a smart move.
Isn't that whole "based stickman" meme built around a trump supporter who wears a mask?
Lots of them were masks. You're just being blatantly hypocritical at this point.
especially since antifa isn't a part of any legitimate community.
They are. You're just so blinded by your own ideology that you cannot even wrap your head around basic facts.
Isn't that whole "based stickman" meme built around a trump supporter who wears a mask?
"Based Stickman" only put on a GAS MASK after he was pepper sprayed by your brigade of antisocial losers so that he could effectively defend himself and others. He wasn't attempting to hid his identity so that he could commit violent crimes and avoid punishment.
It's also called a shotgun argument, it's literally exactly what you just did. Present a massive list of things that spread the gambit of quality evidence.
Most of those aren't people getting shot, even though you implied they all we. Most of them have nothing to do with Trump, even though you implied they all do. Several of them have been confirmed false. Several more were actually acts of violence by Antifa.
You're trusting that nobody can actually read through and refute every point in your massive list if you present it quickly like this. It's a Gish Gallup, the classic terrible argumentation tactic set down by Duane Gish.
You should look up Duane Gish. Because you're literally stealing arguments from creationists now.
That wasn't my argument, though. My argument was that extreme right wingers use guns and violence more often. You would've gotten that if you didn't just hop around conversations trying to get "gotchas" when you lose arguments elsewhere.
Most of them have nothing to do with Trump, even though you implied they all do.
That one is just wrong.
Several of them have been confirmed false.
Also wrong.
Several more were actually acts of violence by Antifa.
Nope, wrong again.
You're trusting that nobody can actually read through and refute every point in your massive list if you present it quickly like this. It's a Gish Gallup,
Wrong, yet again. I'm not expecting anyone to "refute" every single one of these stories. The idea was that OP was getting inordinately bent out of shape over bottle throwing.
I'm showing him that there's a lot more to be pissed about than bottle throwing. Which, again, you would've gotten if you weren't jumping around trying to get little "gotchas" without doing any of the reading necessary to back it up.
Although, at this point, I'm starting to think that reading or not, you still wouldn't have gotten it.
You should look up Duane Gish.
Take your own advice, because you don't actually understand the meaning of the term.
Yes it was. You said this to justify why the list was relevant:
Bottles are better than bullets though.
So wrong again.
That one is just wrong.
I'm not engaging your list.
Also wrong.
I'm not engaging your list.
Nope, wrong again.
I'm still not engaging your list. It's a bullshit fallacious argument and can be ignored as such.
I'm not expecting anyone to "refute" every single one of these stories. The idea was that OP was getting inordinately bent out of shape over bottle throwing.
It isn't inordinate. The woman you're defending showed up with a SAP glove, an illegal weapon in the state of California and was photographed throwing bottles at people. One can find that violence wrong, while also finding the violence you pointed out wrong. It's childish and asinine to think anything else, let alone argue it like this.
I'm showing him that there's a lot more to be pissed about than bottle throwing.
And since human beings are incapable of having more than one thought at once, this objection makes a lot of sense. Are you kidding me right now??
No, You're either purposefully misunderstanding or just missing the point so hard that it's difficult to comprehend. My argument wasn't that every single one of these incidents was a shooting.
It was that there are far more shootings/violent incidents from the right.
In this case, it helps illustrate the point, since the OP was arguing that bottle throwing is equally bad as everything coming from the extreme right.
It is.
Oh, so your points have multiple layers of depth and mine don't? Funny how that works.
Well you're screaming incoherently and being insulting to everyone who talks to you. Does it surprise you that people assume you have no nuance when you say things like "You're a stupid fuck" to people?
Throwing bottles isn't comparable to murdering people with guns.
It is.
Objectively, it's not.
Well you're screaming incoherently and being insulting to everyone who talks to you.
Wow, this is some grade-A hypocrisy.
Does it surprise you that people assume you have no nuance when you say things like "You're a stupid fuck" to people?
I haven't said that in this conversation. I haven't even come close. You, on the other hand have been consistently condescending throughout the entire conversation to the point of open hostility.
I guess I'm not defending antifa as much as expressing how hypocritical it is to say you're "equally angry at both" when one is objectively more violent than the other.
Again, it's a very small amount of murders in the larger scheme of things- the exact same logic you used with regards to leftist violence compared to 'average Saturday nights', remember?
You're literally the one that made the argument that "Is doesn't matter because it's statistically small". So use what you just posted against when you posted "That's an average Saturday night" and let's watch you argue against yourself.
Ah, so you are anti-immigration then? Terror attacks are even more of a threat and radical Islam needs to be curbed at every turn so that even more of their hatred of gays and non-believers doesn't turn into violence.
Which country out of all the fuking countries in the world should be held responsible for the middle east? Yet the American's will take a small amount of immigrants from the countries they destroyed. Disgusting! Don't like immigrant's? stop going to war for bullshit reasons all the fuking time! I guess you all about not being responsible for your country's actions/doing the right thing.
Oh man but Iran's a HUGE problem! Sure they haven't gone into a war of aggression for about as long as the American Republic's been around but we should believe the country who has been only at peace 10 of their 240+ years of existence for their word.
Fighting nazis doesn't make you an asshole, though.
Antifa fights Nazis. They also fight Republicans, moderates, journalists, girls in "Make Bitcoin Great Again" hats...basically anybody who doesn't outnumber them in any given area.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that at least some of you are finally realizing you have a hilariously bad image and are starting to try and desperately shitpost your way out of it, but maybe the easier route is to just not mob up and beat bystanders?
If that's all it takes to have a "hilariously bad image", right wingers have a much, much worse image.
Hey, if you say so, buddy.
"Antifa" got introduced to the mainstream with their riotiing and violent assault of innocent bystanders at Berekely during Yiannopoulos' visit. They followed that up with their violent assault - and complete loss of a street riot - at the Free Speech March in Berekely months later.
Public image? A violent band of overprivileged college students who, it turns out, can't win even fights.
It actually didn't. Several of those were on the national news circuit a lot longer than the Berkley thing. I'm glad you admitted that you don't care about actual murder, though.
Ah, good to see the left is embracing their own "alternative facts" now.
I don't blame you, honestly; when you're less popular than even racist murderers, you probably have to come up with all kinds of psychological ploys to protect your self-worth.
Funny, when I made my comment I was going to link to the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq where I said "more violence driven by politics ideology".
I'm one of them people that feels ISIS wouldn't exist as it does today if Western nations hadn't fucked around (see: bombed the shit out of and invaded) in the Middle East. I don't think we're 100% to blame for their problems existing, but we certainly helped some groups there justify exporting their violence outside of their countries, not to mention feeding hatred at a base level of "You blew up my fucking house and killed my family."
So do I think we can talk down ISIS? No. They've published more than enough crystal clear materials detailing that they hate us because we're infidels, and that any believe that they'd stop if we left the ME alone entirely is naive.
That doesn't meant though that we're off the hook for helping to fuel them and groups like them.
Ultimately, if you put violence on the table as a means to an end, everyone is going to use it, even people you don't like. You're empathetic to Nazis killing black people, or brown people, or whatever minority they believe is part of some Jewish conspiracy? Then take violence off the table.
People will still die. The deranged extremist will still find some justification or means or carrying out an attack, but if you honestly want to give people like that all the more reason to think they're fighting a "war" then you're just as guilty as they are.
I'm one of them people that feels ISIS wouldn't exist as it does today if Western nations hadn't fucked around (see: bombed the shit out of and invaded) in the Middle East.
Absolutely.
Ultimately, if you put violence on the table as a means to an end, everyone is going to use it, even people you don't like.
I'm not putting violence on the table though. I hate violence, but I'm being confronted with it. If you are under threat, you don't have the luxury of being non-violent.
I hate violence, but I'm being confronted with it.
You personally are being confronted with violence? And when I say you personally I mean it. Not this "Here's a list of violent attacks and murders committed by racists and nazis against people I share a skin colour with.", that's not you, you're not some victim by proxy.
If you're telling me "I was being attacked by a nazi/group of nazis and feel like acting in self defence is justified.", I agree. But from what I gather you're not telling me that.
And the same goes for most if not all antifa, they're trying to play that Nazis existing and being bigots is somehow violence that needs to be met with violence. That ideas contrary to their own are violence.
When they show up to start throwing bottles and "collect scalps" they're not doing it because they're defending themselves. You don't get to instigate violence on some weak "Ideas are violence." platform, and then pretend you're defending yourself by starting shit.
Seriously Suburban, can you imagine if a bunch of Europeans, after some terror attack, started turning up to Muslim events because "Islam must be stopped at every turn.", and "Here's a list of terror attacks committed by Muslims, this is why when I attack innocent Muslims I'm actually defending myself!", or "It's OK because some of these Muslims, even though peaceful, believe in FGM, Sharia, and that the rest of us are infidels and should be killed or converted."
You personally are being confronted with violence?
Yes, I am.
That ideas contrary to their own are violence.
No, I don't know why I have to keep explaining this. Genocide is not a legitimate political position.
When they show up to start throwing bottles and "collect scalps" they're not doing it because they're defending themselves.
Collection scalps is a meme from Inglorious Basterds. It's not a threat.
Antifa are community-based. This event was organized by out of state militant neo nazi groups like Identity Evropa. Antifa show up to 'defend their communities' from perceived fascists.
Seriously Tryhard, would you be comfortable with Nathan Damigo types in your community? These people are known for violent hate crime, not nicey-nice discussion.
pretend you're defending yourself by starting shit.
If someone is preaching that I need to be exterminated for my race, then yeah, they are starting shit.
Seriously Suburban, can you imagine if a bunch of Europeans, after some terror attack, started turning up to Muslim events because "Islam must be stopped at every turn.
This metaphor only works if you think Islam and Nazism are equivalent ideologies, which they functionally are not.
No, I don't know why I have to keep explaining this. Genocide is not a legitimate political position.
Yes it is. It's just a really, really shitty one that you, me, and the majority of people 100% disagree with.
Antifa show up to 'defend their communities' from perceived fascists.
Perceived. This is the problem. If it's all down to perceptions, when does perception change and antifa start fighting people who they just don't like? How long until Tryhard is on the hook because his opinions aren't a "legitimate political position"?
Collection scalps is a meme from Inglorious Basterds. It's not a threat.
Translated: Someone used a reference from a movie about hunting and killing Nazis to express their intent or attitude.
If a Nazi posted that they were aiming for "20 curb stomps" that day, would you be saying "Yeah they're terrible but that's clearly a meme from American History X.", or would you take it as evidence of intent?
You don't have to defend every dumb thing someone says just because they're "on your side".
Seriously Tryhard, would you be comfortable with Nathan Damigo types in your community? These people are known for violent hate crime, not nicey-nice discussion.
I'm from London, we have plenty of EDL and Britain First types march and protest. Do/would I like it? No. Does it make me want to go out and fight people? No. Do I feel like any violence is a sensible response to it? No.
We've also had plenty of marches in favour of Sharia, but I don't think violence is a sensible or acceptable response to that either.
Why? Because you put violence on the table, and it becomes the only tool anyone will want to use.
If someone is preaching that I need to be exterminated for my race, then yeah, they are starting shit.
Only if you take their preaching completely devoid of any and all context and evidence that clearly demonstrates that the absolute vast majority of people in the Western world don't want sweeping genocide against specific groups.
I know people throw around "echo chambers" a lot to give people shit, but sincerely, every antifa I see talking about stuff online just seems completely convinced there's absolutely massive numbers of Nazis roaming the streets, just waiting to put on their brown shirts and start smashing up shop fronts.
Nazis are tiny, insignificant and largely disconnected groups. To act like the US, Europe, West or the world is on some tipping point for a fascist take over is absurd. To react to that absurd idea by claiming that your violence is "pre-emptive self defense" or straight up self defense is beyond rational thought.
Further to that, by your logic here, in the scenario I threw together in my last comment, those groups of people attacking Muslims are fine to do so if one of following is true:
Those Muslims are calling for their death (this happens)
Those groups perceive those Muslims to be a threat they need to defend their community from (easy enough if you throw terror attacks in peoples faces)
Fantastic, you've just given every lunatic with a chip on his shoulder permission to carry out some attack. After all, they were just defending their community from perceived threats!
This metaphor only works if you think Islam and Nazism are equivalent ideologies,
I don't follow?
I'm arguing the principle of things here. I laid out a hypothetical where, by your logic, group A feels justified in carrying out violence on group B, because group B not only expressed the desire to kill group A ('someone is preaching that I need to be exterminated'/'death to infidels'), but went out and did it (those articles you linked/literally any terror attack in Europe).
Unfortunately, I cannot disclose much information to you because I'm actually in litigation. However, what I can say is that I live in a rural area with an active neo-nazi faction, and I unfortunately ran afoul of them several months ago. Since then, I've been harassed so badly that I needed to disconnect my phone line, cut off all online presence, and stay with friends in different towns.
So I can say that I am intimately aware of their tactics and threats of violence. I know what the end goal is.
Yes it is. It's just a really, really shitty one that you, me, and the majority of people 100% disagree with.
No, it's not. Genocide is a crime against humanity that is completely apolitical. It has absolutely nothing to do with politics. "Gassing jews" isn't a platform.
It's advocating murder.
If it's all down to perceptions, when does perception change and antifa start fighting people who they just don't like?
You're looking in the wrong place, then. **Extreme right wingers are already killing people for less than their political views. **
How long until Tryhard is on the hook because his opinions aren't a "legitimate political position"?
Never, unless you start supporting genocide. This isn't a zero-sum game. You can hold your own views and support free speech without defending people who condone murder.
If a Nazi posted that they were aiming for "20 curb stomps" that day, would you be saying "Yeah they're terrible but that's clearly a meme from American History X.", or would you take it as evidence of intent?
Those are two extremely different contexts, though. One movie is an entirely fictional drama/comedy and the other is a historical drama based on real life characters. Because one is entirely fabricated and the other is rooted in reality, I would take quotes from American History X much more seriously than quotes from Inglorious Basterds.
Does it make me want to go out and fight people? No. Do I feel like any violence is a sensible response to it? No.
Then I'm assuming you've never been personally threatened or affected by them? Because your perception changes quite a bit once that happens.
We've also had plenty of marches in favour of Sharia, but I don't think violence is a sensible or acceptable response to that either.
Sharia law isn't equivalent to fascism. You keep drawing these false equivalencies regarding fascism. Fascism has a very specific definition.
Only if you take their preaching completely devoid of any and all context and evidence that clearly demonstrates that the absolute vast majority of people in the Western world don't want sweeping genocide against specific groups.
Did you know that the absolute vast majority of German people during the 1930s/40s didn't support Hitler or his regime? Using the "popularity" metric doesn't get us very far when looking into specific situations like this one.
Popular support doesn't have very much impact on what government does, and it's very often the case that a minority manages to gain power and commit acts like this against the will of the people.
ut sincerely, every antifa I see talking about stuff online just seems completely convinced there's absolutely massive numbers of Nazis roaming the streets, just waiting to put on their brown shirts and start smashing up shop fronts.
Not many people remember that the Nazi party was a small one, not a tide of millions of people. It doesn't take much, and that's what people are worried about.
Fantastic, you've just given every lunatic with a chip on his shoulder permission to carry out some attack. After all, they were just defending their community from perceived threats!
You're drawing another false equivalency. If a Muslim is calling for a specific person's death, then yeah, they need to be held accountable for that, just like anyone else. Again, you're equating a religion (with billions of adherents, multiple sects, etc) with a very specific political philosophy that requires the extermination of "lower populations".
I laid out a hypothetical where, by your logic, group A feels justified in carrying out violence on group B, because group B not only expressed the desire to kill group A ('someone is preaching that I need to be exterminated'/'death to infidels'), but went out and did it (those articles you linked/literally any terror attack in Europe).
So let's stick to the hypothetical, then. Group B is harassing, killing, and attacking group A. Can group A defend themselves?
I've been harassed so badly that I needed to disconnect my phone line...
And hey, for whatever it's worth coming from a random person on the internet, I'm sorry to hear that. Here's hoping you get some peace and justice in the near future.
Genocide is a crime against humanity that is completely apolitical.
"Gas the jews." wasn't apolitical, it was a goal set out by a specific political party, as something they wanted to achieve.
When is genocide ever invoked and realistically possible, except via politics? You need power, influence, and numbers to carry out a genocide. Saying genocide is apolitical is completely dishonest.
Extreme right wingers are already killing people for less than their political views.
And they would have been so before, and will in the future. The same way religious violence has happened before, and will happen in the future.
Never, unless you start supporting genocide.
So you're saying that every single antifa action is taken only against those who advocate or support genocide? That the flying of communist flags, anti-capitalism, and anti-free speech messages coming from antifa groups doesn't exist?
My point is, antifa has so much shit attached to it; They're pro-communist a lot of the time, anti-capitalism, pro-feminism etc etc, that's a LOT of political hot topics I simply have to trust won't be the next rallying cry for antifa to go out and target people based on.
No, you're just misunderstanding. No one is saying there's a surge of billions of nazis. They're saying there's a surge in Nazi activity
After Brexit, there were a handful of attacks on minority groups here in the UK. It was abhorrent, frustrating and really set the tone for what Brexit was for a lot of people. However, everyone acknowledge that those events were a sign of emboldened bigots.
There weren't black bloc protesters in the street, being violent, claiming the rise of the EDL/BNP/Skinhead was imminent. Because that would be a complete overreaction, and give groups like EDL a reason to be out to "counter". Again, it's a self fulfilling prophecy; if you go out there and give extremists a reason to believe they're at war, you're going to get a war.
Instead, people condemned the crimes, had debates and discussions on TV and radio and the violence completely fizzled out.
So let's stick to the hypothetical, then. Group B is harassing, killing, and attacking group A. Can group A defend themselves?
No. Because the reality is that in terms of actual actions carried out, group B (Nazis) is barely a blip, and even though group B might have more people who think shitty things, and support those that act them out, until they themselves act them out, group A have nothing to defend themselves from.
Notice how I said:
Seriously Suburban, can you imagine if a bunch of Europeans, after some terror attack, started turning up to Muslim events because
I made the distinction between an extremist carrying out a terror attack in the name of Islam, and regular muslims at some event being attacked for it. Some of the muslims at that imaginary event, statistically, will be 100% in support of the terror attack that took place, but that doesn't make them fair game. You can't attack them and call it "pre-emptive".
Turning up to a nazi rally where they wave their shitty flags and bait angsty communists, to throw bottles and fight people is not justified. You're not at war, you can't carrying out pre-emptive strikes.
You're a citizen, and attacking people who are innocent of any action, because they think a way you dislike ("politically legitimate" or not), is not justified or helpful.
Beyond all that too, what happens when the extremist attacks or kills someone? Completely devoid of your assistance and input, the law takes over and lays down any and all punishments. By then though, someone has already been hurt or killed, and for all your anger and violence, you made zero fucking positive difference.
it was a goal set out by a specific political party, as something they wanted to achieve.
But it wasn't, though. The Nazi's party's platform wasn't anymore radical than Donald Trump's, or Marine Le Pen. People don't vote for extremists right off of the bat. The majority of Germans didn't even know what was really going on until after the war.
The genocide happened on the sly, away from the public's view.
So you're saying that every single antifa action is taken only against those who advocate or support genocide?
Generally, yeah. How many antifa actions were there against conservatives hanging and burning Obama dolls in effigy? 0. Antifa has only become a thing recently, as white supremacist activity increases.
That the flying of communist flags, anti-capitalism,
Anti-fa usually fly antifascist flags. But as fascism is something that arises out of decaying capitalism, you'll find many antifa who are anarchist/communist, sure. However, you'll also find libertarians & even centrists.
There's no specific ideology involved here, besides opposing fascism.
and anti-free speech messages coming from antifa groups doesn't exist?
What anti-free speech messages, exactly?
Instead, people condemned the crimes, had debates and discussions on TV and radio and the violence completely fizzled out.
You're going to have to trust me on this one, Great Britain and the US aren't even close to comparable in terms of systemic racial problems and violence. Across the pond, we've been condemning the crimes, having debates, and you know what? It still changes nothing. (I'm going to add to this in a separate comment, due to length)
that's a LOT of political hot topics I simply have to trust won't be the next rallying cry for antifa to go out and target people based on.
That's why you gotta look at the history. There's been pretty much 0 antifa activity before the past 6 months. It's a direct response to the rise in white supremacy in the US.
if you go out there and give extremists a reason to believe they're at war, you're going to get a war.
That's the problem, they're already at war. It's just that the victims aren't the majority, so no one cares. It's just like the crack epidemic in the US. No one cared about that, because it only affected the poor underclass. Now that heroin is ravaging white communities around the country, suddenly drug epidemics are a serious issue. (this also is the perfect segue into the secondary comment)
No. Because the reality is that in terms of actual actions carried out,
So I'm not allowed to defend myself in my situation? The actions being carried out against me are barely a blip? Sorry dude, I can't accept that. Neither can the other people being victimized by these people.
because they think a way you dislike
They want me fucking dead. That's more than "think in a way I dislike". I'm sorry, but it's not a political debate if question number one is "Should SuburbanDinosaur be killed for their inferiority?"
and for all your anger and violence, you made zero fucking positive difference.
Anti-fa usually fly antifascist flags. But as fascism is something that arises out of decaying capitalism, you'll find many antifa who are anarchist/communist, sure. However, you'll also find libertarians & even centrists.
This is a fair explanation, but still a problem. It wouldn't be if antifas solution to problems wasn't violence, but it is. I still stand by my point that if your only tool is violence, then being that politically frenetic leaves me, as the average person awfully concerned about who you'll target next.
I'm no fan of communism, who's to say antifa wouldn't have a problem with that? Who's to say antifa won't decide fascism = anyone who dislikes communism.
I mean shit you got anarchists calling black people Uncle Tom, if it's that easy to get them to turn against you, and they're marching with anarchists with the intent of being violent, how safe am I really if I wanted to attend a free speech rally?
What anti-free speech messages, exactly?
Attacking free speech rallies, for one.
You're going to have to trust me on this one, Great Britain and the US aren't even close to comparable in terms of systemic racial problems and violence.
Yeah, that ones fair enough. I know they're not directly comparable, but I also know that if people had gone into the streets as antifa or under any other label, to be violent, it would have made things worse.
So I'm not allowed to defend myself in my situation?
You are absolutely allowed to defend yourself against the person(s) that are trying to get you you and harm you.
Personal self defense is always going to be different from having large groups organising violence as a "defense", because the latter is completely disorganised mob rule. Trying to cave heads in with a bike lock isn't self defense, thats just straight up attempted murder.
To this idea that antifa are out there doing all this to drive off nazis with violence, and that it's self defense; Why then is it that the moment there's imagery of antifa involved in violence in the media (scalp/bottle person being punched), they all jump to "She was just picking up litter, not throwing them!" and "The scalps? That was just memes! Her being punched is totally unjustified!"
"It's self defense! Oh you got a photo? I totally wasn't being violent."
So what? I'm supposed to believe that violence is absolutely necessary until it's one of you guys getting hit in the face and not the other way around? It just reeks of people being there solely to start shit, who then go screaming to the papers the moment they get hurt.
I'd be not dead, so that's positive to me.
And you'll still be not dead if you defended yourself from a scumbag personally too. You don't need to go out to rallies, put on a mask, grab a weapon, find someone to fight, and then say "I need to do this in self defense.", to stay alive.
Regarding the list of articles you posted, again, after Brexit we had shit like that happen, you'd see videos and articles about people shouting "We voted to get you out.", or in the worst cases, killing people.
They were still all isolated incidents. To treat them as the actions of some monolithic entity of "nazis" or anything else, would be absurd and I argue it's absurd in the case of your articles too. Yes, they're a result of the political climate, but to call it fascism (as if it was organised) is a little far no?
Wether you like it or not, antifa and nazis have a symbiotic relationship, pull one out and the other follows. Antifa blocking busses and fighting innocent (and I mean just trying to get to work, innocent) people, in response to deluded bigots in isolated incidents, only ensured that nazis would make an appearance at some point.
By then, you can justify your presence and violence, because the actual nazis and fascists turned up. But you played a huge role in that.
You people are the worst. Learn to pick your battles. All you have done is agitate nationalists to mobilize even more, while they were willing to shoot themselves in the foot, and make the far left less relatable.
If you think that just leaving them be to organize is going to make them go away, you're naive or out your damn mind.
What effect do you seriously think violent counter protesting is doing? Because it clearly is doing the opposite of the intention and I could have told you that before you dumb asses thought it was a good idea.
What effect do you seriously think violent counter protesting is doing?
It's making Nazis unwelcome in modern society. Fascists want nothing more than to impose violence, terror, and victimization on who they see as "lesser".
You cannot go up against that by talking. People like you are the exact reason fascism is allowed to come to power over and over again.
Do you also think the Kurds should be peacefully protesting and trying to have sit down debates with ISIS?
Extremist Muslim kills/assaults innocent person- just Google it because I don't have time to cite hundreds of articles on /r/drama
I guess you'd have no issue with people blocking traffic over this widespread Islamic violence? Or would you claim that those crimes were committed by a small minority of Muslims, while not considering that the same could be true of Trump supporters and/or free speech advocates?
Where is this widespread Nazi violence? It exists, yes. So does anarchist violence. Neither are very widespread, though.
Both types of violence are rare. The difference is that Nazi violence is rare because there aren't that many Nazis while antifa violence is rare because antifa are a bunch of cowards who know they'll get stomped if they start shit with the wrong people.
Electing the dumbest POTUS ever who is fucking up the country beyond recognition - no issue, not my problem.
Last I checked there have been far dumber heads of state than a famous billionaire. I didnt even vote and I know that. That said, why do you filthy Canadians insist on saying America is being destroyed? It isnt. Also, if it WAS you would be going down with us dip shit. Lol
Blocking the traffic on my way to McDonalds to delay stuffing yourself with shit for 5 minutes - unforgivable.
More like blocking traffic for pretty much any kind of business or emergency whatsoever. Some of us have jobs u neet fuckstick. Lol You try sitting in a interstate block up for 8 hours.
If you are trying to convince me that Trump is the dumbest man to ever hold top office, I am not going to take your bait. Lol Enjoy your sense of smug tho fam.
Protesting an idiot is fine. Doing so while normalizing violence against people you don't like is not.
Nothing Trump has done is nearly as dangerous as what could happen if we continue to let these fucking retards throw bottles at people on the street because they don't like what they're saying.
"So much trigger action going on". It's not triggering. People pointing out that your wrong is not them being triggered. It's easy to fall back to petty comments like that when you don't have an intellectual response.
I don't like trump. But people blocking traffic is more than an inconvenience for a lot of people who have obligations, like work. I fully support the right to protest. But I never understood why blocking people going about their day seems like a positive thing for some groups (as seen in the video). What does that do for your cause? To me it seems like it turns away the "moderates", like myself, who are on the fence. It makes me think less of your movement.
No. Not even close. I despise trump. I was talking about moderates in terms of in between white nationalists and antifa. I think both are extremes which I completely disagree with. And I am in the middle.
"On the fence" implies something narrow and temporary, as opposed to just being a normal person. Only on the internet is it assumed that if you're not a socialist you must by process of elimination be a neo-Nazi.
I made a pithy joke akin to "Get a job, hippie." I didn't know you were doing student teaching too, but I probably should have assumed as much as that's usually the case for grad students.
Now please explain how blocking traffic wins hearts and minds, and does not have the opposite effect instead. Please explain how when the police eventually move in and start bashing skulls of both neo nazis and antifa, most people will not give a fuck how brutal they are and instead just be glad vandals and street gangs are gone.
Please explain why more and more people are more than happy to overlook just who "based stickman" is and what he stands for?
Say what you like about police brutality, but at least the traffic ended up moving on time.
Why is your assumption that protest is about winning hearts and minds? Most people are never going to give a shit either way. A lot of protest is about imposing economic costs on those in power and forcing concessions, obviously.
Why is your assumption that protest is about winning hearts and minds? Most people are never going to give a shit either way. A lot of protest is about imposing economic costs on those in power and forcing concessions, obviously.
If that is the aim, then your analogy/assertion here is off:
But if emergency vehicles are allowed passage then that's how people bring attention to the fact that they aren't getting a fair shake in society and that's basically how they feel every day.
What neo nazi businesses were being protested? What economic cost, other than to the city of Berkeley (the taxpayers)? What concessions were asked for?
In military terms, asymmetric warfare is roughly the equivalent. How do you make gains despite being a minority position?
If this is a military movement, (and I'm not sure why it wouldn't even loosely considered that, given the weapons, uniformed and minor explosives used) then Antifa would be basically an insurgency, no? If one of those m80s had landed in someone's shirt and given them a nice, firery mastectomy, where would Antifa be now? It's far from the most implausible thing that could happen. Surely you must know one or two kids growing up who have a severely mangled (or completely amputated) hand.
And let's say these protests work, and concessions are granted. What about other minority positions? How many different groups can block traffic, destroy property and beat people until heard and obeyed?
There are very important reasons for minority positions to win hearts and minds, and very important reasons why there are lines that should not be crossed when protesting. They protect minority positions as much as anyone else. Because as you can see, most of the general public could give a fuck if "moldylocks" has her face bashed in, even at the hands of a white supremacist.
Antifa will go from idiots, to dangerous, to terrorists, to traitors if the escalations continue. It's as clear as a bell what will happen.
a lot of protests shut down important economic infrastructure temporarily to make political leaders know they have the ability to impose strong costs on them unless they give concessions, whatever the issue is, doesn't make them literally an insurgency.
On this particular issue I dunno what they wanted frankly, I haven't read into it. But BLM have done it to get police reform, for example.
Voted Trump, I don't want to gas Jews, and if I lived in Berkley I'd have been at the rally beating the living crap out of todays closest thing to Nazis, the antifa.
See, you need to understand, you are the bad guys.
Well they are. These are violent, extreme right attacks, and many of the attackers were self-professed trump supporters. Those are the facts of each case.
I'm not blaming all trump supporters for that, though.
The bad guys at Berkley are the antifa. They have assaulted dozens of innocents. Going on about this or that guy doesnt change anything. Antifa using your narrative is like the nazis pointing out a bad Jewish guy as an excuse to attack them all.
Man if your so passionate about this issue you must have been totally incensed when the American government went to war in Iraq over false pretenses. A million and a half Iraqi's dead due to the war and sanctions previous, half of Iraq's population during those times was under the age of 13. So how passionate are you about 500,000 plus dead children based on a pack of lies that has now destabilized A whole region of the world? I bet not as passionate as you are about ANTIFA who's death toll is 0.
Like white nationalism? Being anti Jewish or anti immigrant? Direct and indirect support of warfare and corporate dominance over political systems? Hating all of the left?
Do you understand what words mean?
But to you yeah who gives a fuk about 500,000 brown children. You couldn't even write one sentence about them...
Prescott Bush GWB's grandfather supported a Nazi coup in the United states which failed. After WW2 the American government use ex Nazi scientists and intelligence operatives in their military and covert practices. Virtually every war after WW2 that the Americans went into was unjustifiable. Glenn Beck as fuking stupid as he was, was an expert about the horrors of Joseph Goebbels. Lol in Glenn's case I guess that was just art imitating life.
And yet you think that there are no Nazi backwash leftovers.
Lowest tier bait I've ever seen. Sure the average libtard likes to think "muh nazi" is a problem, but in reality they aren't this delusional (with the exception of antifa). /u/SuburbanDinosaur I rate your bait roughly 2/10. However, you're lucky everyone on plebbit is basically a god damn degenerate retard so bait worked out.
Aren't you tired of being fearful and angry all the time? Maybe it's time you put the koolaid down son! In your world up is down, Feminists are like jihadists and liberals are cultural Marxists etc... Everything's all backwards. Serious question do you ever think that maybe you don't understand the proper definition of things?/ You're not educated?
You take crazy right wing definitions of things and believe that they're giving you the facts? Holy fuk, grow a brain!
People like our autist here would die in east Germany. Where the real Nazis are. They would never leave their home and be scared shitless constantly. Until they snap more than they already are and starting to kill themselves or others.
/u/SuburbanDinosaur Be happy you are sheltered enough to bitch on the internet constantly about a nonexistent Nazi-Menace. But everyone can see you idiots are walking the same way fascists do.
We learn to tell the signs early on here. Your antics would not work here in Germany because everyone sees your movement for what it is. Fascism in disguise. So delete your account and do everyone a favor you fucking Brownshirt.
178 comments
n/a SnapshillBot 2017-04-23
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n/a yonicthehedgehog 2017-04-23
don't you hate it when you decide to go get a sandwich on your lunch break and get exterminated by a bunch of nazis passing by instead
so annoying
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
/u/SuburbanDinosaur I have to be honest, one of the reasons people don't like like antifas is because, no, very few average people alive today have their day fucked up by a Nazi.
spooky nazis
Almost everyone has experienced the annoyance of a traffic jam, though.
/u/captainapatio using normie common sense will get you nowhere with him but will make you a /r/drama darling.
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-04-23
Erroneous. It could make him a poster here, but to be a darling you have to lolcow and lolcow often.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
I mean, that was my point. Everyone experiences traffic jams, they're not a big deal. Being killed by a right-wing radical who drove to NY with a sword to "kill black people" is though.
Well, some people actually have empathy for those that do.
n/a xKillerDreag 2017-04-23
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
I generally assume that if you murder someone because of their race, you fall under the category of racial supremacist/nazi.
n/a BANNED_FIVE_TIMES 2017-04-23
Damn dude, you got me, I was just murdering bigggers. Here I was thinking I was not a nazi, it you're right. I guess since we all murder niggers for fun were all nazis.
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-04-23
Which would generally be true, but you idiots are claiming anit-Nazis are now Nazis and shooting them. I know y'all try and be reasonable online but in reality AntiFa are dangerous extremists too.
n/a lifesbrink 2017-04-23
Ah yes, I'm sure these basement dwelling Nazis are all over the place, killing and committing genocide, all without revealing themselves! Wait, does that mean they know magic?
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
https://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/672iyf/socialismlscfullcommunism_user_and_autistic/dgnavzc/
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-04-23
A couple months ago there was someone who was legitimately worried that the Alt-Right were corrupting dark magic or some shit to make Trump win. I can't find the thread now but some people legitimately believe that they now magic.
n/a lifesbrink 2017-04-23
I feel nothing but pity for this level of autistic ignorance.
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
Don't worry we feel sorry for you too.
n/a lifesbrink 2017-04-23
Actually, lolcows like yourself are quite welcome. We love seeing your autistic screeching
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
You must be one of those individual rational I can think for myself type of people I keep hearing about.
lol
No, you're just a tool like all the other tools who say the exact same things using language that makes no fuking sense but to the idiots who use it.
Am I wrong?
n/a lifesbrink 2017-04-23
Oh no, we are all crazy here
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
#1 Where is this widespread Nazi violence? It exists, yes. So does anarchist violence. Neither are very widespread, though.
#2 You moved the goalposts. Your initial point was that Nazis "fuck up an average people's day" now it's just that you have empathy for the extremely fucking rare people whose day is fucked up?
#3 How are you still not understanding that people can hate Nazis but still think Antifa are fucking dipshits who aren't sympathetic? You continue to try to make it this "If you're not with us, you're against us" type thing and no matter how often people tell you that that's not how it works, you insist on trying to make it that way. Why?
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
Trump/alt right supporter shouts "Get out of my country!" before murdering 2 Indian men.
Multiple innocent Muslims murdered by alt right Trump and Le Pen supporter in Canada.
Alt righter "traveled to New York to kill black people", murders 70 year old black man with a sword..
Alt right man accosts Sikh man, then shoots him.
Trump supporters beat 58 year old homeless Hispanic man into coma with a metal pole.
Trump supporter shoots protestor in the gut, protestor wanted dialogue.
Before you say "those are just sporadic incidents", the FBI has discovered that white supremacists have been infiltrating law enforcement for decades.
Fair, I didn't elucidate my point well enough. My point was that when allowed to grow/gain power unchecked, nazis will fuck up an average person's day a lot more than a traffic jam will. The second point being that just because something isn't likely to happen to you doesn't mean you shouldn't care about it or fight to change it.
I do understand that.
I'm not doing that, either. There's a lot of leftists who disagree with antifa's methods as well. My only point here is that nazis/white supremacy has to be stopped at every turn, and lot of people on reddit think that ignoring it means that it will go away.
I don't happen to subscribe to that belief.
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
You cited four attacks in the US. We see the same shit from the antifa. Again: my point isn't to defend Nazis, it's so point that extremists are fucking assholes on both sides, so don't expect us to side with one to fight another.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
No, I cited 5.
How many antifa caused deaths can you find? I can't find any.
Fighting nazis doesn't make you an asshole, though. Antifa is a reaction to white supremacy, it doesn't exist on its own.
That why it hasn't been a topic for like over ten years until now.
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
My bad, I've been drankin.
I can find a lot of violence, but are you gonna claim there's been no anti-fascist violence?
White supremacy doesn't "exist on its own" either- nothing does. There's not a single political movement, ever, that sprang out of nothing.
No, but being an antifa does. They beat someone up for having a "Make Bitcoin Great Again" hat. Like fucking stop, you psychos.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
No, I've never done that.
Why is that comparative to white supremacists murdering people? People get beat up for less than that at bars every Saturday.
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
You cited four murders.
To paraphrase a great man: "People get murdered for less in big cities every Saturday."
Neither of these movements are a large scale threat. They're just not. The threat is that motherfuckers think political violence on the street is a rational response to them. Again paraphrasing a great mind: "It's just not."
n/a HobbesCalvinandLocke 2017-04-23
Oh shit. I like this
n/a HobbesCalvinandLocke 2017-04-23
Oh shit. I like this. But he didn't even vote for murderer.
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
drankin, that's why
n/a alarmmightsound 2017-04-23
For real /u/SuburbanDinosaur, how can you downplay violence as not much in the larger scheme of violence but screech about murder that's not much in the larger scheme of murder?
No one here- or very few, anyway- wants to defend Nazis. But you can't go around attacking people for gathering and expect that people will defend you. Instead, you're seeing people (rhetorically) attack you because you're instigating violence. Stop doing that.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
I cited four events. The amount of people killed was higher than that.
They aren't to you. To other people, they very much are.
People are supposed to react peacefully to others murdering people like them based on their race?
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-04-23
Wait dude, you can't say that the violence on the left isn't anything more than happens over a weekend and then pretend that a couple murders are anything more.
They're both small potatoes, so why is one super concerning to you but the other isn't?
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
Because one is a response to the other. The left isn't shooting up Christians in the name of atheism or whatever the way white supremacists are murdering people because they're black.
Let me put it this way. A white supremacist pulls a gun on a black person and says "subhuman scum, time to die." Black person pepper sprays them and punches them in the face.
Is that pepper-spraying and punching equally concerning to you as the attempted murder?
n/a tyuijvhvhcfcjf 2017-04-23
Self-defense is one thing, and preemptive strikes against probable bigots is another. When ten people in a group of hundreds of thousands go out and kill people, you can't justify beating up someone wearing a MAGA hat or head scarf because 'that person meant me harm' when you're just scared of that person's group.
n/a HobbesCalvinandLocke 2017-04-23
Ooooo I like this, too.
I don't know if I like the serious posting here, but I do like we're just not calling /u/suburbandinosaur names since he's nice enough to respond in good faith if we are.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
That's not what I'm justifying though. I'm referencing one event organized by actual neo Nazis.
n/a HobbesCalvinandLocke 2017-04-23
Nazis were part of an organized march. Fine.
People went to protest against them. Fine.
Some people decided to attack that march. Not fine.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
No, it wasn't. It was specifically in reference to Nathan Damigo punching a counter protestor. I pointed out that /r/public_freakout really shouldn't be reveling in Damigos punching, because he's a violent felon and white supremacist.
n/a HobbesCalvinandLocke 2017-04-23
Well shit, I apologize. Just know how you come off to us normie moderates.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
Well, I'm not a centrist, so I'm well aware of that haha.
n/a jubbergun 2017-04-23
I don't think anyone was "reveling in Damigos punching" so much as they were indulging in a bit of schadenfreude over Moldylocks getting popped after lobbing bottles at people.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
There wasn't any proof of that, though, so really, a bunch of people were doxxing and hating on a specific representation of the protestors at Berkeley.
urther, read the thread. There absolutely was.
Shit like "these leftists asked for this, they can't stop what's coming" type bullshit. She was doxxed and harassed.
But yet, people deemed the literal Nazi who has gone to jail for violent hate crime the hero of the situation.
Why do you think that is?
n/a jubbergun 2017-04-23
She was caught on camera with the bottle in her hand.
People committing criminal acts like vandalism or assault and battery don't deserve the benefit of anonymity when they're only using it to get away with criminal behavior. If the "legitimate" protesters at Berkeley don't want to be disregarded or defamed for being associated with antifa scum then they should police their ranks and give the boot to antifa scum. I don't have any sympathy for people who show up to commit acts of violence getting hurt when their victims defend themselves, even when the victim engaging in self-defense is some filthy neo-Nazi.
It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to puzzle that one out, Dr. Einstein. Most reasonable people disagree with the skinhead, but we're Americans and we believe that even though he's an idiot he has every right to go out in public and tell people exactly what sort of an idiot he is. He doesn't get any sympathy until some equally reprehensible moron shows up and interrupts his public confession of his own stupidity by engaging in physical violence. We still don't like the asshole, but tossing bottles and punches at him isn't acceptable behavior so long as all he is doing is marching/assembling/speaking.
Let me make this simple by explaining when it is acceptable to "bash the fash." Is "the fash" saying something you don't like? Too bad, words are not an excuse to "bash the fash." Is "the fash" occupying a space you feel they should be forbidden to enter? Unless you're a law enforcement official dealing with a trespassing complaint the answer is "no bash." Is "the fash" committing an act of physical violence against you or someone else? Then yes, please feel free to "bash the fash."
Otherwise, all you're doing is repeating history and garnering sympathy for people you don't like, just like the socialist and communists did when they publicly attacked the Brownshirts in Germany in the 30s.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
So what? Lots of people carry bottles around, especially in hot places like California. Carrying a bottle isn't a crime.
Oh, so you support doxxing? Nice.
Good, because that's exactly what I'm talking about. We have, on video, fash committing acts of violence, yet here you are defending them anyway.
n/a jubbergun 2017-04-23
You can deflect all you want, guy. She made a public statement about collecting scalps, indicating that she was going to the event seeking conflict. She was seen tossing bottles. She was with a group tossing explosives. You know as well as anyone else that empty bottle she was holding had nothing to do with the heat or slaking her thirst. You might willingly believe the lies you're telling yourself. The rest of us don't.
I support exposing the identity of people involved in criminal acts. There's a big difference between that and "doxxing" people to intimidate them into silence or conformity.
Acting in self defense isn't the same as the unprovoked acts of violence in which the black block retards were engaged. Moldylocks was an active participant in a group throwing bottles and explosives at peaceful protesters. Those peaceful protesters had every right to engage their attackers to stop the attack. What your antifa pals were doing was not acceptable self defense. It was an act of aggression.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
That's not deflection, pal. Deflection is avoiding the topic by bringing up unrelated matters. Pointing out that carrying a bottle isn't a crime isn't deflection, it's pointing out that you're twisting a very common thing into evidence to support your narrative.
Source?
I'm asking for proper evidence. You're the only one making any claims here. Without evidence for them, might I add.
She quoted Inglorious Basterds. You know, the dramedy? It's a meme.
So you'd support the doxxing the Nathan Damigo's of this rally? Because he's been to jail for violent hate crime.
It is acting in self-defense when violent criminals like Nathan Damigo start harassing your community.
n/a jubbergun 2017-04-23
OK
OK
OK
OK
In the first place, I don't have to support doxxing them because, unlike the useful idiots you support, they had the intestinal fortitude to show up without a mask. In the second place, they didn't commit any crimes.
No, it's not, especially since antifa isn't a part of any legitimate community.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
You don't understand what deflection is. At this point, I'm just to assume that you cannot actually respond to those points, so you've regressed into falsely labeling everything "deflection".
What does that have to do with anything? People like Damigo and his internet hate crew like to dox and harass counter protestors families, so wearing a mask is a smart move.
Isn't that whole "based stickman" meme built around a trump supporter who wears a mask?
Lots of them were masks. You're just being blatantly hypocritical at this point.
They are. You're just so blinded by your own ideology that you cannot even wrap your head around basic facts.
n/a jubbergun 2017-04-23
"Based Stickman" only put on a GAS MASK after he was pepper sprayed by your brigade of antisocial losers so that he could effectively defend himself and others. He wasn't attempting to hid his identity so that he could commit violent crimes and avoid punishment.
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-04-23
...so? No one would care if people were protesting. They care about antifa throwing bottles at people. Don't do it. Don't defend those that do.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
When people are holding white supremacist rallies, they are.
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-04-23
That's not immediate, imminent violence. Stop defending people attacking other people for shit they don't like.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
That's not what I'm defending. If you look at the original thread, I'm defending one specific person at one specific event.
n/a HobbesCalvinandLocke 2017-04-23
He pepper spraying and punching is actually happening though, without that imminent threat.
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
So? To the people getting beat up at bars on Saturday it's a big deal. Remember how you dismissed that?
People are supposed to react peacefully to others throwing bottles at them for who they voted for president?
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
I never dismissed that. I was simply pointing out that you're blowing out of proportion the supposed "danger".
Bottles are a lot better than bullets:
***Here's part dos, we're already at war, and we didn't start it:
Man yells, "Make America Great Again!" Before shooting 6 people dead.
Man wearing, "Make America Great Again" hat murders 2 strangers for no reason.
A Trump supporter murders 2 police officers because they told him he couldn't wave a Confederate flag at a high school football game.
Two men beat a homeless man with a metal bar and urinate on him screaming, “Donald Trump was right, all these illegals need to be deported,” When asked for a comment about the incident Trump defends them saying, "My supporters are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again."
Trump supporter attacks a Hispanic man and a Muslim student at a gas station while yelling, "Trump! Trump! Trump!"
Trump supporter stabs a black man unprovoked because he was holding hands with a white woman, tells police they need to release him so he can attend a Trump rally that night.
Trump supporter attacks Muslim woman at airport.
A Trump supporter punches a 70 year old protester in the face.
Trump supporter arrested for brutally beating protester.
3 Trump supporters arrested planning terrorist attack to kill Muslims.
Trump supporter confuses an Indian man for a Muslim at restaurant and says, "Things are different now, I don't want you sand n*ggers sitting next to me." Before attacking the man.
"We got a new President you fucking f*ggots." Men yell as they attack gay man.
Trump supporters track down and brutally beat an artist because she made a painting of Trump with a small penis.
Trump supporter who sucker punched protester: “Next time, we might have to kill them.”
Trump is asked to comment on his supporters brutally beating a black man, he responds with, “Maybe he should have been roughed up,”
"You fucking gorillas and baby monkeys, We voted for Trump. Trump's building a wall, beaners, and you'll be going back to where you belong." Man yells at black elementary school children unprovoked before he swerves his car at them attempting to hit them.
Trump supporters beat black man so badly he’s hospitalized for concussion and call him the n-word.
Trump supporter pepper sprays a 15-year-old girl point-blank in the face after another Trump supporter groped her breasts, shouting “n*gger lover” as she attempted to run away.
Trump supporter walks up to a black man in the middle of a downtown area and says, "Donald Trump will deport you." Before punching the black man.
“Trump is going to win and if you don’t like it I’m going to beat your ass,” Trump supporter yells at random black woman outside of convenient store.
Man attacks and kicks Muslim airport employee shouting, "Trump is here now, he will get rid of all of you."
In 8 months Trump supporters attacked protesters at 20 different rallies.
Trump supporter tracks down a local Latino Democratic political candidate and tries to run him and his elderly mother over with a car. (The Latino candidate is also a former marine.)
"This is for Donald Trump!" man yells as he runs up a Latino person and punches them in the head.
Trump supporter goes to Hillary Clinton rally to disrupt the event, ends up punching someone when asked to leave.
Trump supporter punches, chokes and slaps protesters on video during rally.
An angry mob of Trump supporters brutally beat and grab a mans genitals because he held up a, "Republicans Against Trump" sign.
A Trump supporter yells, "Get your black kids out of here. Do you even have a job? Do you know what a job is, n*gger?" Before physically attacking a black man who had come to the hospital to get help for his sick 2 week old daughter.
Local Republican Politician sexually assaults a woman by, "grabbing her pussy." and then says he is allowed to do it because now that Trump is president he doesn't have to be politically correct.
Canadian man who was a vocal Trump supporter both online and in person goes into a mosque and murders 6 people.
Again, you're angry at the wrong group.
n/a ABillionYearsOld 2017-04-23
Gish gallop, but solid attempt kid.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
aaaand you don't know what the term gish gallop means.
n/a ABillionYearsOld 2017-04-23
It's also called a shotgun argument, it's literally exactly what you just did. Present a massive list of things that spread the gambit of quality evidence.
Most of those aren't people getting shot, even though you implied they all we. Most of them have nothing to do with Trump, even though you implied they all do. Several of them have been confirmed false. Several more were actually acts of violence by Antifa.
You're trusting that nobody can actually read through and refute every point in your massive list if you present it quickly like this. It's a Gish Gallup, the classic terrible argumentation tactic set down by Duane Gish.
You should look up Duane Gish. Because you're literally stealing arguments from creationists now.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
A shotgun argument isn't a gish gallop though.
That wasn't my argument, though. My argument was that extreme right wingers use guns and violence more often. You would've gotten that if you didn't just hop around conversations trying to get "gotchas" when you lose arguments elsewhere.
That one is just wrong.
Also wrong.
Nope, wrong again.
Wrong, yet again. I'm not expecting anyone to "refute" every single one of these stories. The idea was that OP was getting inordinately bent out of shape over bottle throwing.
I'm showing him that there's a lot more to be pissed about than bottle throwing. Which, again, you would've gotten if you weren't jumping around trying to get little "gotchas" without doing any of the reading necessary to back it up.
Although, at this point, I'm starting to think that reading or not, you still wouldn't have gotten it.
Take your own advice, because you don't actually understand the meaning of the term.
n/a ABillionYearsOld 2017-04-23
Um.... wrong?
Yes it was. You said this to justify why the list was relevant:
So wrong again.
I'm not engaging your list.
I'm not engaging your list.
I'm still not engaging your list. It's a bullshit fallacious argument and can be ignored as such.
It isn't inordinate. The woman you're defending showed up with a SAP glove, an illegal weapon in the state of California and was photographed throwing bottles at people. One can find that violence wrong, while also finding the violence you pointed out wrong. It's childish and asinine to think anything else, let alone argue it like this.
And since human beings are incapable of having more than one thought at once, this objection makes a lot of sense. Are you kidding me right now??
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
Ah fair, that's my mistake.
No, You're either purposefully misunderstanding or just missing the point so hard that it's difficult to comprehend. My argument wasn't that every single one of these incidents was a shooting.
It was that there are far more shootings/violent incidents from the right.
n/a ABillionYearsOld 2017-04-23
Lol.
Correct, it wasn't. So why did you imply that?
A bunch of news articles doesn't prove that, however. You know this.
Almost like I was being facetious to show how silly the point was.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
I didn't. You misunderstood. Again.
In this case, it helps illustrate the point, since the OP was arguing that bottle throwing is equally bad as everything coming from the extreme right.
Oh, so your points have multiple layers of depth and mine don't? Funny how that works.
n/a ABillionYearsOld 2017-04-23
Bottles are better than bullets means what then?
It is.
Well you're screaming incoherently and being insulting to everyone who talks to you. Does it surprise you that people assume you have no nuance when you say things like "You're a stupid fuck" to people?
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
Throwing bottles isn't comparable to murdering people with guns.
Objectively, it's not.
Wow, this is some grade-A hypocrisy.
I haven't said that in this conversation. I haven't even come close. You, on the other hand have been consistently condescending throughout the entire conversation to the point of open hostility.
n/a ABillionYearsOld 2017-04-23
Right, and then you followed it with a list contain majority non-gun related crimes. What are you not understanding?
No. Subjectively. You discount left wing violence as justified and amplify right wing violence.
Lol - you said it in the thread this links to.
Lol point it out. I'll wait.
hahahahahahah what? That's literally what you're doing? Holy crap are you really this confused?
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
No--I didn't. You're lying again.
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
I'm angry at both groups. And you're deciding to defend one. Why?
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
I guess I'm not defending antifa as much as expressing how hypocritical it is to say you're "equally angry at both" when one is objectively more violent than the other.
Only one side has actually been murdering people.
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
Again, it's a very small amount of murders in the larger scheme of things- the exact same logic you used with regards to leftist violence compared to 'average Saturday nights', remember?
Your cure is worse than the disease.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
They kill more people in the US than ISIS.
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
You're literally the one that made the argument that "Is doesn't matter because it's statistically small". So use what you just posted against when you posted "That's an average Saturday night" and let's watch you argue against yourself.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
No, I wasn't. I argued that the impact is much less. One punch != murder. That was my argument.
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
No, you said it was nothing more than a random Saturday night. Murders happen on a Saturday night, too.
But if your defense is "At least it's not murder", maybe you should rethink what it is you're defending.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
That was absolutely not what I said.
If your defense is lying about what other people say, it's you who needs to consider what they're defending.
n/a SWIMsfriend 2017-04-23
who said this? can't find it on google
n/a jubbergun 2017-04-23
I may have said it, but Google wouldn't link you to my posts because I'm a dangerous right-wing reactionary /r/Drama poster. /s
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
/u/SuburbanDinosaur:
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
That's blatantly not what I said.
n/a 1989Batman 2017-04-23
It's exactly what you said. The context was who cares about violence when people are being murdered.
n/a TheJum 2017-04-23
Ah, so you are anti-immigration then? Terror attacks are even more of a threat and radical Islam needs to be curbed at every turn so that even more of their hatred of gays and non-believers doesn't turn into violence.
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
Persecution of gays? I never knew that Russia was A Muslim country.
n/a TheJum 2017-04-23
Oh I forgot that gays were only hated by the Russians.
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
Jesus christ man you're reversing my own argument, that's the point I was making. Tacitly you're agreeing with the context of MY OWN argument.
Thanks for the validation. I'm stupefied by your logic.
n/a TheJum 2017-04-23
I was just curious if you were also anti-immigrant because otherwise you would be a hypocrite.
Muslims tho, amiright?
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
Which country out of all the fuking countries in the world should be held responsible for the middle east? Yet the American's will take a small amount of immigrants from the countries they destroyed. Disgusting! Don't like immigrant's? stop going to war for bullshit reasons all the fuking time! I guess you all about not being responsible for your country's actions/doing the right thing.
Oh man but Iran's a HUGE problem! Sure they haven't gone into a war of aggression for about as long as the American Republic's been around but we should believe the country who has been only at peace 10 of their 240+ years of existence for their word.
n/a Richtoffens_Ghost 2017-04-23
Antifa fights Nazis. They also fight Republicans, moderates, journalists, girls in "Make Bitcoin Great Again" hats...basically anybody who doesn't outnumber them in any given area.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that at least some of you are finally realizing you have a hilariously bad image and are starting to try and desperately shitpost your way out of it, but maybe the easier route is to just not mob up and beat bystanders?
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
If that's all it takes to have a "hilariously bad image", right wingers have a much, much worse image.
Maybe right wingers should stop murdering innocent people?
n/a Richtoffens_Ghost 2017-04-23
Hey, if you say so, buddy.
"Antifa" got introduced to the mainstream with their riotiing and violent assault of innocent bystanders at Berekely during Yiannopoulos' visit. They followed that up with their violent assault - and complete loss of a street riot - at the Free Speech March in Berekely months later.
Public image? A violent band of overprivileged college students who, it turns out, can't win even fights.
What a crew!
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
You don't have to take my word for it:
Man yells, "Make America Great Again!" Before shooting 6 people dead.
Man wearing, "Make America Great Again" hat murders 2 strangers for no reason.
A Trump supporter murders 2 police officers because they told him he couldn't wave a Confederate flag at a high school football game.
Two men beat a homeless man with a metal bar and urinate on him screaming, “Donald Trump was right, all these illegals need to be deported,” When asked for a comment about the incident Trump defends them saying, "My supporters are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again."
Trump supporter attacks a Hispanic man and a Muslim student at a gas station while yelling, "Trump! Trump! Trump!"
Trump supporter stabs a black man unprovoked because he was holding hands with a white woman, tells police they need to release him so he can attend a Trump rally that night.
Trump supporter attacks Muslim woman at airport.
A Trump supporter punches a 70 year old protester in the face.
Trump supporter arrested for brutally beating protester.
3 Trump supporters arrested planning terrorist attack to kill Muslims.
Trump supporter confuses an Indian man for a Muslim at restaurant and says, "Things are different now, I don't want you sand n*ggers sitting next to me." Before attacking the man.
"We got a new President you fucking f*ggots." Men yell as they attack gay man.
Trump supporters track down and brutally beat an artist because she made a painting of Trump with a small penis.
Trump supporter who sucker punched protester: “Next time, we might have to kill them.”
Trump is asked to comment on his supporters brutally beating a black man, he responds with, “Maybe he should have been roughed up,”
"You fucking gorillas and baby monkeys, We voted for Trump. Trump's building a wall, beaners, and you'll be going back to where you belong." Man yells at black elementary school children unprovoked before he swerves his car at them attempting to hit them.
Trump supporters beat black man so badly he’s hospitalized for concussion and call him the n-word.
Trump supporter pepper sprays a 15-year-old girl point-blank in the face after another Trump supporter groped her breasts, shouting “n*gger lover” as she attempted to run away.
Trump supporter walks up to a black man in the middle of a downtown area and says, "Donald Trump will deport you." Before punching the black man.
“Trump is going to win and if you don’t like it I’m going to beat your ass,” Trump supporter yells at random black woman outside of convenient store.
Man attacks and kicks Muslim airport employee shouting, "Trump is here now, he will get rid of all of you."
In 8 months Trump supporters attacked protesters at 20 different rallies.
Trump supporter tracks down a local Latino Democratic political candidate and tries to run him and his elderly mother over with a car. (The Latino candidate is also a former marine.)
"This is for Donald Trump!" man yells as he runs up a Latino person and punches them in the head.
Trump supporter goes to Hillary Clinton rally to disrupt the event, ends up punching someone when asked to leave.
Trump supporter punches, chokes and slaps protesters on video during rally.
An angry mob of Trump supporters brutally beat and grab a mans genitals because he held up a, "Republicans Against Trump" sign.
A Trump supporter yells, "Get your black kids out of here. Do you even have a job? Do you know what a job is, n*gger?" Before physically attacking a black man who had come to the hospital to get help for his sick 2 week old daughter.
Local Republican Politician sexually assaults a woman by, "grabbing her pussy." and then says he is allowed to do it because now that Trump is president he doesn't have to be politically correct.
Canadian man who was a vocal Trump supporter both online and in person goes into a mosque and murders 6 people.
n/a Richtoffens_Ghost 2017-04-23
I know I don't. After all, Berekely "antifa" assaulting people at Milo's cancelled speech got more coverge than any of the myriad links you posted. :)
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
It actually didn't. Several of those were on the national news circuit a lot longer than the Berkley thing. I'm glad you admitted that you don't care about actual murder, though.
Here's some more!
Trump supporter physically assaults Comedian on stage for making Anti-Trump Joke.
Man yells, "Trump" while beating African immigrant cab driver.
A Trump supporter is arrested for burning a Mosque down.
A Trump supporter sees a car has pro-gay bumper stickers on it and then follows the car, waiting for the 75 year old driver to get out before brutally attacking him while screaming, "My new president says we can kill all you f*ggots now."
A Trump supporter is arrested after brutally attacking gay men outside a McDonald’s. Witnesses describe the aftermath as, "There was blood everywhere."
A Muslim refugee gay rights activist is kidnapped and raped by two men in retaliation for, "Trump being mocked."
A Trump supporter is arrested on terrorism charges for building bombs he was going to use to kill Muslims.
Person spray-paints a transgender veterans car with the word "Trump" then sets it on fire.
A Trump supporter attacks two Muslim women and tries to push over a stroller with a baby in it while screaming, "Get the fuck out of America"
A Trump supporter tells a random Muslim woman he sees on the street, "I'm voting for Trump because he said he would send all of you terrorists out of this country.” Before attacking her.
Man shoots out the windows of two businesses from a car while shouting, "Hail Trump."
n/a Richtoffens_Ghost 2017-04-23
Ah, good to see the left is embracing their own "alternative facts" now.
I don't blame you, honestly; when you're less popular than even racist murderers, you probably have to come up with all kinds of psychological ploys to protect your self-worth.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
I didn't ask for your life story.
n/a Richtoffens_Ghost 2017-04-23
And you didn't get it, chucklefuck. No wonder you're so confused. Reading comprehension's not really your thing.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
It's weird how accurately you keep describing yourself.
n/a Tryhardosaurus 2017-04-23
As we all know, the solution to political/ideologically driven violence is in fact more violence driven by politics/ideology.
Also, if your home is burning down, the solution is to add more combustable materials and fuel.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
I'm not a utopian. Often times, that is the case. I'm sure you also think we can talk down ISIS?
n/a Tryhardosaurus 2017-04-23
Funny, when I made my comment I was going to link to the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq where I said "more violence driven by politics ideology".
I'm one of them people that feels ISIS wouldn't exist as it does today if Western nations hadn't fucked around (see: bombed the shit out of and invaded) in the Middle East. I don't think we're 100% to blame for their problems existing, but we certainly helped some groups there justify exporting their violence outside of their countries, not to mention feeding hatred at a base level of "You blew up my fucking house and killed my family."
So do I think we can talk down ISIS? No. They've published more than enough crystal clear materials detailing that they hate us because we're infidels, and that any believe that they'd stop if we left the ME alone entirely is naive.
That doesn't meant though that we're off the hook for helping to fuel them and groups like them.
Ultimately, if you put violence on the table as a means to an end, everyone is going to use it, even people you don't like. You're empathetic to Nazis killing black people, or brown people, or whatever minority they believe is part of some Jewish conspiracy? Then take violence off the table.
People will still die. The deranged extremist will still find some justification or means or carrying out an attack, but if you honestly want to give people like that all the more reason to think they're fighting a "war" then you're just as guilty as they are.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
Absolutely.
I'm not putting violence on the table though. I hate violence, but I'm being confronted with it. If you are under threat, you don't have the luxury of being non-violent.
n/a Tryhardosaurus 2017-04-23
You personally are being confronted with violence? And when I say you personally I mean it. Not this "Here's a list of violent attacks and murders committed by racists and nazis against people I share a skin colour with.", that's not you, you're not some victim by proxy.
If you're telling me "I was being attacked by a nazi/group of nazis and feel like acting in self defence is justified.", I agree. But from what I gather you're not telling me that.
And the same goes for most if not all antifa, they're trying to play that Nazis existing and being bigots is somehow violence that needs to be met with violence. That ideas contrary to their own are violence.
When they show up to start throwing bottles and "collect scalps" they're not doing it because they're defending themselves. You don't get to instigate violence on some weak "Ideas are violence." platform, and then pretend you're defending yourself by starting shit.
Seriously Suburban, can you imagine if a bunch of Europeans, after some terror attack, started turning up to Muslim events because "Islam must be stopped at every turn.", and "Here's a list of terror attacks committed by Muslims, this is why when I attack innocent Muslims I'm actually defending myself!", or "It's OK because some of these Muslims, even though peaceful, believe in FGM, Sharia, and that the rest of us are infidels and should be killed or converted."
That's the same logic you're working with here.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
Yes, I am.
No, I don't know why I have to keep explaining this. Genocide is not a legitimate political position.
Collection scalps is a meme from Inglorious Basterds. It's not a threat.
Antifa are community-based. This event was organized by out of state militant neo nazi groups like Identity Evropa. Antifa show up to 'defend their communities' from perceived fascists.
Seriously Tryhard, would you be comfortable with Nathan Damigo types in your community? These people are known for violent hate crime, not nicey-nice discussion.
If someone is preaching that I need to be exterminated for my race, then yeah, they are starting shit.
This metaphor only works if you think Islam and Nazism are equivalent ideologies, which they functionally are not.
n/a Tryhardosaurus 2017-04-23
How?
Yes it is. It's just a really, really shitty one that you, me, and the majority of people 100% disagree with.
Perceived. This is the problem. If it's all down to perceptions, when does perception change and antifa start fighting people who they just don't like? How long until Tryhard is on the hook because his opinions aren't a "legitimate political position"?
Translated: Someone used a reference from a movie about hunting and killing Nazis to express their intent or attitude.
If a Nazi posted that they were aiming for "20 curb stomps" that day, would you be saying "Yeah they're terrible but that's clearly a meme from American History X.", or would you take it as evidence of intent?
You don't have to defend every dumb thing someone says just because they're "on your side".
I'm from London, we have plenty of EDL and Britain First types march and protest. Do/would I like it? No. Does it make me want to go out and fight people? No. Do I feel like any violence is a sensible response to it? No.
We've also had plenty of marches in favour of Sharia, but I don't think violence is a sensible or acceptable response to that either.
Why? Because you put violence on the table, and it becomes the only tool anyone will want to use.
Only if you take their preaching completely devoid of any and all context and evidence that clearly demonstrates that the absolute vast majority of people in the Western world don't want sweeping genocide against specific groups.
I know people throw around "echo chambers" a lot to give people shit, but sincerely, every antifa I see talking about stuff online just seems completely convinced there's absolutely massive numbers of Nazis roaming the streets, just waiting to put on their brown shirts and start smashing up shop fronts.
Nazis are tiny, insignificant and largely disconnected groups. To act like the US, Europe, West or the world is on some tipping point for a fascist take over is absurd. To react to that absurd idea by claiming that your violence is "pre-emptive self defense" or straight up self defense is beyond rational thought.
Further to that, by your logic here, in the scenario I threw together in my last comment, those groups of people attacking Muslims are fine to do so if one of following is true:
Fantastic, you've just given every lunatic with a chip on his shoulder permission to carry out some attack. After all, they were just defending their community from perceived threats!
I don't follow?
I'm arguing the principle of things here. I laid out a hypothetical where, by your logic, group A feels justified in carrying out violence on group B, because group B not only expressed the desire to kill group A ('someone is preaching that I need to be exterminated'/'death to infidels'), but went out and did it (those articles you linked/literally any terror attack in Europe).
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
Unfortunately, I cannot disclose much information to you because I'm actually in litigation. However, what I can say is that I live in a rural area with an active neo-nazi faction, and I unfortunately ran afoul of them several months ago. Since then, I've been harassed so badly that I needed to disconnect my phone line, cut off all online presence, and stay with friends in different towns.
So I can say that I am intimately aware of their tactics and threats of violence. I know what the end goal is.
No, it's not. Genocide is a crime against humanity that is completely apolitical. It has absolutely nothing to do with politics. "Gassing jews" isn't a platform.
It's advocating murder.
You're looking in the wrong place, then. **Extreme right wingers are already killing people for less than their political views. **
Never, unless you start supporting genocide. This isn't a zero-sum game. You can hold your own views and support free speech without defending people who condone murder.
Those are two extremely different contexts, though. One movie is an entirely fictional drama/comedy and the other is a historical drama based on real life characters. Because one is entirely fabricated and the other is rooted in reality, I would take quotes from American History X much more seriously than quotes from Inglorious Basterds.
Then I'm assuming you've never been personally threatened or affected by them? Because your perception changes quite a bit once that happens.
Sharia law isn't equivalent to fascism. You keep drawing these false equivalencies regarding fascism. Fascism has a very specific definition.
Did you know that the absolute vast majority of German people during the 1930s/40s didn't support Hitler or his regime? Using the "popularity" metric doesn't get us very far when looking into specific situations like this one.
Popular support doesn't have very much impact on what government does, and it's very often the case that a minority manages to gain power and commit acts like this against the will of the people.
No, you're just misunderstanding. No one is saying there's a surge of billions of nazis. They're saying there's a surge in Nazi activity, i.e. KKK recruitment fliers being dropped into towns that haven't had a KKK presence in decades, harassment campaigns in small town america
Not many people remember that the Nazi party was a small one, not a tide of millions of people. It doesn't take much, and that's what people are worried about.
You're drawing another false equivalency. If a Muslim is calling for a specific person's death, then yeah, they need to be held accountable for that, just like anyone else. Again, you're equating a religion (with billions of adherents, multiple sects, etc) with a very specific political philosophy that requires the extermination of "lower populations".
So let's stick to the hypothetical, then. Group B is harassing, killing, and attacking group A. Can group A defend themselves?
That's all I'm asking about here.
n/a Tryhardosaurus 2017-04-23
And hey, for whatever it's worth coming from a random person on the internet, I'm sorry to hear that. Here's hoping you get some peace and justice in the near future.
"Gas the jews." wasn't apolitical, it was a goal set out by a specific political party, as something they wanted to achieve.
When is genocide ever invoked and realistically possible, except via politics? You need power, influence, and numbers to carry out a genocide. Saying genocide is apolitical is completely dishonest.
And they would have been so before, and will in the future. The same way religious violence has happened before, and will happen in the future.
So you're saying that every single antifa action is taken only against those who advocate or support genocide? That the flying of communist flags, anti-capitalism, and anti-free speech messages coming from antifa groups doesn't exist?
My point is, antifa has so much shit attached to it; They're pro-communist a lot of the time, anti-capitalism, pro-feminism etc etc, that's a LOT of political hot topics I simply have to trust won't be the next rallying cry for antifa to go out and target people based on.
After Brexit, there were a handful of attacks on minority groups here in the UK. It was abhorrent, frustrating and really set the tone for what Brexit was for a lot of people. However, everyone acknowledge that those events were a sign of emboldened bigots.
There weren't black bloc protesters in the street, being violent, claiming the rise of the EDL/BNP/Skinhead was imminent. Because that would be a complete overreaction, and give groups like EDL a reason to be out to "counter". Again, it's a self fulfilling prophecy; if you go out there and give extremists a reason to believe they're at war, you're going to get a war.
Instead, people condemned the crimes, had debates and discussions on TV and radio and the violence completely fizzled out.
No. Because the reality is that in terms of actual actions carried out, group B (Nazis) is barely a blip, and even though group B might have more people who think shitty things, and support those that act them out, until they themselves act them out, group A have nothing to defend themselves from.
Notice how I said:
I made the distinction between an extremist carrying out a terror attack in the name of Islam, and regular muslims at some event being attacked for it. Some of the muslims at that imaginary event, statistically, will be 100% in support of the terror attack that took place, but that doesn't make them fair game. You can't attack them and call it "pre-emptive".
Turning up to a nazi rally where they wave their shitty flags and bait angsty communists, to throw bottles and fight people is not justified. You're not at war, you can't carrying out pre-emptive strikes.
You're a citizen, and attacking people who are innocent of any action, because they think a way you dislike ("politically legitimate" or not), is not justified or helpful.
Beyond all that too, what happens when the extremist attacks or kills someone? Completely devoid of your assistance and input, the law takes over and lays down any and all punishments. By then though, someone has already been hurt or killed, and for all your anger and violence, you made zero fucking positive difference.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
But it wasn't, though. The Nazi's party's platform wasn't anymore radical than Donald Trump's, or Marine Le Pen. People don't vote for extremists right off of the bat. The majority of Germans didn't even know what was really going on until after the war.
The genocide happened on the sly, away from the public's view.
Generally, yeah. How many antifa actions were there against conservatives hanging and burning Obama dolls in effigy? 0. Antifa has only become a thing recently, as white supremacist activity increases.
Anti-fa usually fly antifascist flags. But as fascism is something that arises out of decaying capitalism, you'll find many antifa who are anarchist/communist, sure. However, you'll also find libertarians & even centrists.
There's no specific ideology involved here, besides opposing fascism.
What anti-free speech messages, exactly?
You're going to have to trust me on this one, Great Britain and the US aren't even close to comparable in terms of systemic racial problems and violence. Across the pond, we've been condemning the crimes, having debates, and you know what? It still changes nothing. (I'm going to add to this in a separate comment, due to length)
That's why you gotta look at the history. There's been pretty much 0 antifa activity before the past 6 months. It's a direct response to the rise in white supremacy in the US.
That's the problem, they're already at war. It's just that the victims aren't the majority, so no one cares. It's just like the crack epidemic in the US. No one cared about that, because it only affected the poor underclass. Now that heroin is ravaging white communities around the country, suddenly drug epidemics are a serious issue. (this also is the perfect segue into the secondary comment)
So I'm not allowed to defend myself in my situation? The actions being carried out against me are barely a blip? Sorry dude, I can't accept that. Neither can the other people being victimized by these people.
They want me fucking dead. That's more than "think in a way I dislike". I'm sorry, but it's not a political debate if question number one is "Should SuburbanDinosaur be killed for their inferiority?"
I'd be not dead, so that's positive to me.
n/a Tryhardosaurus 2017-04-23
This is a fair explanation, but still a problem. It wouldn't be if antifas solution to problems wasn't violence, but it is. I still stand by my point that if your only tool is violence, then being that politically frenetic leaves me, as the average person awfully concerned about who you'll target next.
I'm no fan of communism, who's to say antifa wouldn't have a problem with that? Who's to say antifa won't decide fascism = anyone who dislikes communism.
I mean shit you got anarchists calling black people Uncle Tom, if it's that easy to get them to turn against you, and they're marching with anarchists with the intent of being violent, how safe am I really if I wanted to attend a free speech rally?
Attacking free speech rallies, for one.
Yeah, that ones fair enough. I know they're not directly comparable, but I also know that if people had gone into the streets as antifa or under any other label, to be violent, it would have made things worse.
You are absolutely allowed to defend yourself against the person(s) that are trying to get you you and harm you.
Personal self defense is always going to be different from having large groups organising violence as a "defense", because the latter is completely disorganised mob rule. Trying to cave heads in with a bike lock isn't self defense, thats just straight up attempted murder.
To this idea that antifa are out there doing all this to drive off nazis with violence, and that it's self defense; Why then is it that the moment there's imagery of antifa involved in violence in the media (scalp/bottle person being punched), they all jump to "She was just picking up litter, not throwing them!" and "The scalps? That was just memes! Her being punched is totally unjustified!"
So what? I'm supposed to believe that violence is absolutely necessary until it's one of you guys getting hit in the face and not the other way around? It just reeks of people being there solely to start shit, who then go screaming to the papers the moment they get hurt.
And you'll still be not dead if you defended yourself from a scumbag personally too. You don't need to go out to rallies, put on a mask, grab a weapon, find someone to fight, and then say "I need to do this in self defense.", to stay alive.
Regarding the list of articles you posted, again, after Brexit we had shit like that happen, you'd see videos and articles about people shouting "We voted to get you out.", or in the worst cases, killing people.
They were still all isolated incidents. To treat them as the actions of some monolithic entity of "nazis" or anything else, would be absurd and I argue it's absurd in the case of your articles too. Yes, they're a result of the political climate, but to call it fascism (as if it was organised) is a little far no?
Wether you like it or not, antifa and nazis have a symbiotic relationship, pull one out and the other follows. Antifa blocking busses and fighting innocent (and I mean just trying to get to work, innocent) people, in response to deluded bigots in isolated incidents, only ensured that nazis would make an appearance at some point.
By then, you can justify your presence and violence, because the actual nazis and fascists turned up. But you played a huge role in that.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
Here's part dos, we're already at war, and we didn't start it:
Man yells, "Make America Great Again!" Before shooting 6 people dead.
Man wearing, "Make America Great Again" hat murders 2 strangers for no reason.
A Trump supporter murders 2 police officers because they told him he couldn't wave a Confederate flag at a high school football game.
Two men beat a homeless man with a metal bar and urinate on him screaming, “Donald Trump was right, all these illegals need to be deported,” When asked for a comment about the incident Trump defends them saying, "My supporters are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again."
Trump supporter attacks a Hispanic man and a Muslim student at a gas station while yelling, "Trump! Trump! Trump!"
Trump supporter stabs a black man unprovoked because he was holding hands with a white woman, tells police they need to release him so he can attend a Trump rally that night.
Trump supporter attacks Muslim woman at airport.
A Trump supporter punches a 70 year old protester in the face.
Trump supporter arrested for brutally beating protester.
3 Trump supporters arrested planning terrorist attack to kill Muslims.
Trump supporter confuses an Indian man for a Muslim at restaurant and says, "Things are different now, I don't want you sand n*ggers sitting next to me." Before attacking the man.
"We got a new President you fucking f*ggots." Men yell as they attack gay man.
Trump supporters track down and brutally beat an artist because she made a painting of Trump with a small penis.
Trump supporter who sucker punched protester: “Next time, we might have to kill them.”
Trump is asked to comment on his supporters brutally beating a black man, he responds with, “Maybe he should have been roughed up,”
"You fucking gorillas and baby monkeys, We voted for Trump. Trump's building a wall, beaners, and you'll be going back to where you belong." Man yells at black elementary school children unprovoked before he swerves his car at them attempting to hit them.
Trump supporters beat black man so badly he’s hospitalized for concussion and call him the n-word.
Trump supporter pepper sprays a 15-year-old girl point-blank in the face after another Trump supporter groped her breasts, shouting “n*gger lover” as she attempted to run away.
Trump supporter walks up to a black man in the middle of a downtown area and says, "Donald Trump will deport you." Before punching the black man.
“Trump is going to win and if you don’t like it I’m going to beat your ass,” Trump supporter yells at random black woman outside of convenient store.
Man attacks and kicks Muslim airport employee shouting, "Trump is here now, he will get rid of all of you."
In 8 months Trump supporters attacked protesters at 20 different rallies.
Trump supporter tracks down a local Latino Democratic political candidate and tries to run him and his elderly mother over with a car. (The Latino candidate is also a former marine.)
"This is for Donald Trump!" man yells as he runs up a Latino person and punches them in the head.
Trump supporter goes to Hillary Clinton rally to disrupt the event, ends up punching someone when asked to leave.
Trump supporter punches, chokes and slaps protesters on video during rally.
An angry mob of Trump supporters brutally beat and grab a mans genitals because he held up a, "Republicans Against Trump" sign.
A Trump supporter yells, "Get your black kids out of here. Do you even have a job? Do you know what a job is, n*gger?" Before physically attacking a black man who had come to the hospital to get help for his sick 2 week old daughter.
Local Republican Politician sexually assaults a woman by, "grabbing her pussy." and then says he is allowed to do it because now that Trump is president he doesn't have to be politically correct.
Canadian man who was a vocal Trump supporter both online and in person goes into a mosque and murders 6 people.
n/a ABillionYearsOld 2017-04-23
Lol still at it? Just not with people who have actually fight for freedom, because that makes you feel/look to silly in comparison.c
n/a froibo 2017-04-23
You people are the worst. Learn to pick your battles. All you have done is agitate nationalists to mobilize even more, while they were willing to shoot themselves in the foot, and make the far left less relatable.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
Why don't you go ask Neville Chamberlain how well appeasement worked out last time? The far right movement came first, antifa is a response to that.
If you think that just leaving them be to organize is going to make them go away, you're naive or out your damn mind.
n/a froibo 2017-04-23
What effect do you seriously think violent counter protesting is doing? Because it clearly is doing the opposite of the intention and I could have told you that before you dumb asses thought it was a good idea.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
It's making Nazis unwelcome in modern society. Fascists want nothing more than to impose violence, terror, and victimization on who they see as "lesser".
You cannot go up against that by talking. People like you are the exact reason fascism is allowed to come to power over and over again.
Do you also think the Kurds should be peacefully protesting and trying to have sit down debates with ISIS?
n/a SexyCannibal 2017-04-23
I guess you'd have no issue with people blocking traffic over this widespread Islamic violence? Or would you claim that those crimes were committed by a small minority of Muslims, while not considering that the same could be true of Trump supporters and/or free speech advocates?
n/a jubbergun 2017-04-23
Both types of violence are rare. The difference is that Nazi violence is rare because there aren't that many Nazis while antifa violence is rare because antifa are a bunch of cowards who know they'll get stomped if they start shit with the wrong people.
n/a itoucheditforacookie 2017-04-23
n/a Fartkin 2017-04-23
Antifa are retarded kys
n/a theherps 2017-04-23
/u/SuburbanDinosaur, consider reading "the boy who cried wolf" and if you can calm your 'tism for 30 seconds, try to think how it could apply
n/a Bucklar 2017-04-23
...never tell the same lie twice?
n/a newcomer_ts 2017-04-23
Electing the dumbest POTUS ever who is fucking up the country beyond recognition - no issue, not my problem.
Blocking the traffic on my way to McDonalds to delay stuffing yourself with shit for 5 minutes - unforgivable.
Yeah, about right…
n/a captaintapatio 2017-04-23
But... that's not what I said. Your making up an argument that wasn't made
n/a lvl99SkrubRekker 2017-04-23
Last I checked there have been far dumber heads of state than a famous billionaire. I didnt even vote and I know that. That said, why do you filthy Canadians insist on saying America is being destroyed? It isnt. Also, if it WAS you would be going down with us dip shit. Lol
More like blocking traffic for pretty much any kind of business or emergency whatsoever. Some of us have jobs u neet fuckstick. Lol You try sitting in a interstate block up for 8 hours.
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-04-23
Can you name one? I don't know how smart Garfield or someone was, but this dude is pretty high up there.
n/a lvl99SkrubRekker 2017-04-23
If you are trying to convince me that Trump is the dumbest man to ever hold top office, I am not going to take your bait. Lol Enjoy your sense of smug tho fam.
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-04-23
O'Bama
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-04-23
lel
n/a pepperouchau 2017-04-23
I knew all of that secret Muslim talk was just a smokescreen to distract from the real, more heinous truth: Barack was Irish.
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-04-23
What's funny is that Muhammad is described as a pale man with red hair, so an Irish Arabian.
n/a CucksLoveTrump 2017-04-23
William Henry Harrison was so dumb he killed himself over a speech
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-04-23
Good ol Billy Chuck Harry.
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-04-23
How are these two related? You can think Trump is a fucking idiot and you can think antifa are, too.
n/a newcomer_ts 2017-04-23
Who are they protesting against?
Trump, his policies and his supporters.
Is that relation sufficient for you?
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-04-23
Uhhh?
No.
Protesting an idiot is fine. Doing so while normalizing violence against people you don't like is not.
Nothing Trump has done is nearly as dangerous as what could happen if we continue to let these fucking retards throw bottles at people on the street because they don't like what they're saying.
n/a newcomer_ts 2017-04-23
You asked how are the two things in my original comment related and I answered that they are indeed related.
Anything beyond that is waste of time debate that leads nowhere.
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-04-23
No, you talked about not protesting Trump being associated with thinking antifa are fucking idiots.
It's easy as fuck to not like Trump and also think antifa are morons.
n/a bleasehalb 2017-04-23
Only the most real comparison ever made by our most brilliant mind.
n/a SuchSpookySkeltal 2017-04-23
I know it's prob a foreign concept to you, but some of us have jobs, and we need to get to those on time.
n/a captaintapatio 2017-04-23
"So much trigger action going on". It's not triggering. People pointing out that your wrong is not them being triggered. It's easy to fall back to petty comments like that when you don't have an intellectual response.
I don't like trump. But people blocking traffic is more than an inconvenience for a lot of people who have obligations, like work. I fully support the right to protest. But I never understood why blocking people going about their day seems like a positive thing for some groups (as seen in the video). What does that do for your cause? To me it seems like it turns away the "moderates", like myself, who are on the fence. It makes me think less of your movement.
n/a newcomer_ts 2017-04-23
You are on the fence when it cones to Trump?
What does a guy have to do that he didn't do so far for you to say, fuck it, he's bad?
n/a captaintapatio 2017-04-23
No. Not even close. I despise trump. I was talking about moderates in terms of in between white nationalists and antifa. I think both are extremes which I completely disagree with. And I am in the middle.
n/a UmmahSultan 2017-04-23
"On the fence" implies something narrow and temporary, as opposed to just being a normal person. Only on the internet is it assumed that if you're not a socialist you must by process of elimination be a neo-Nazi.
n/a captaintapatio 2017-04-23
Then I misspoke
n/a Eternal_Mr_Bones 2017-04-23
Bombing the ME
Fucking up Obamacare
Enforcing strict border security
Being extremely pro business at the cost of EPA, etc
Yeah I've never seen this b4. Definitely not what has been happening for the past 16 years.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-04-23
MY DAY HAS BEEN INCONVENIENCED SIR
n/a ReddCrowe 2017-04-23
Get a job, PK.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-04-23
dae people who disagree with me have no job
n/a ReddCrowe 2017-04-23
Except I know you have no job. And your analogy in this case is way off.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-04-23
I'm a grad student and I teach at the same time. What you mean is that you're a tryhard looking for insults to aggravate people and failing.
n/a ReddCrowe 2017-04-23
I made a pithy joke akin to "Get a job, hippie." I didn't know you were doing student teaching too, but I probably should have assumed as much as that's usually the case for grad students.
Now please explain how blocking traffic wins hearts and minds, and does not have the opposite effect instead. Please explain how when the police eventually move in and start bashing skulls of both neo nazis and antifa, most people will not give a fuck how brutal they are and instead just be glad vandals and street gangs are gone.
Please explain why more and more people are more than happy to overlook just who "based stickman" is and what he stands for?
Say what you like about police brutality, but at least the traffic ended up moving on time.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-04-23
Why is your assumption that protest is about winning hearts and minds? Most people are never going to give a shit either way. A lot of protest is about imposing economic costs on those in power and forcing concessions, obviously.
n/a ReddCrowe 2017-04-23
If that is the aim, then your analogy/assertion here is off:
What neo nazi businesses were being protested? What economic cost, other than to the city of Berkeley (the taxpayers)? What concessions were asked for?
If this is a military movement, (and I'm not sure why it wouldn't even loosely considered that, given the weapons, uniformed and minor explosives used) then Antifa would be basically an insurgency, no? If one of those m80s had landed in someone's shirt and given them a nice, firery mastectomy, where would Antifa be now? It's far from the most implausible thing that could happen. Surely you must know one or two kids growing up who have a severely mangled (or completely amputated) hand.
And let's say these protests work, and concessions are granted. What about other minority positions? How many different groups can block traffic, destroy property and beat people until heard and obeyed?
There are very important reasons for minority positions to win hearts and minds, and very important reasons why there are lines that should not be crossed when protesting. They protect minority positions as much as anyone else. Because as you can see, most of the general public could give a fuck if "moldylocks" has her face bashed in, even at the hands of a white supremacist.
Antifa will go from idiots, to dangerous, to terrorists, to traitors if the escalations continue. It's as clear as a bell what will happen.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-04-23
metaphors != direct equivalences
a lot of protests shut down important economic infrastructure temporarily to make political leaders know they have the ability to impose strong costs on them unless they give concessions, whatever the issue is, doesn't make them literally an insurgency.
On this particular issue I dunno what they wanted frankly, I haven't read into it. But BLM have done it to get police reform, for example.
n/a ReddCrowe 2017-04-23
Well since you're not paying attention and backtracking all over, I'll just repeat myself as well.
Get a job, PK.
n/a Nomadlads 2017-04-23
And it's worked soooo well.
n/a Nomadlads 2017-04-23
Protests only bring long lasting change when they change how people vote and you don't change votes in a good way with pissing people off.
n/a SuchSpookySkeltal 2017-04-23
A sentence I never thought I'd say, but I was happy to see those (((Nazis))) escorting those vehicles and keeping motorists safe.
n/a The_Reason_Trump_Won 2017-04-23
n/a Chicup 2017-04-23
/u/SuburbanDinosaur
Voted Trump, I don't want to gas Jews, and if I lived in Berkley I'd have been at the rally beating the living crap out of todays closest thing to Nazis, the antifa.
See, you need to understand, you are the bad guys.
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
No shit. I never actually implied that. I've been very specific because ya'll love to misrepresent arguments to fit your narrative.
n/a Ultimatex 2017-04-23
lol no you haven't
n/a nanh 2017-04-23
Bitch you heavily implied it with all your violence examples being linked to trump
n/a SuburbanDinosaur 2017-04-23
Well they are. These are violent, extreme right attacks, and many of the attackers were self-professed trump supporters. Those are the facts of each case.
I'm not blaming all trump supporters for that, though.
n/a Hemic 2017-04-23
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
Bad guys like people who rob and assault a taxi driver and was convicted of a hate crime?
The guy got out of prison and bought a suit, so now all of the crazy shit he thinks/says is legitimate? No I don't think so.
Douchbags the whole lot of them.
https://www.identityevropa.com/action-report/2016/11/29/npi-2016
Just look at them holy fuk. Is having a hitler hairdo mandatory to join this cult?
n/a Chicup 2017-04-23
The bad guys at Berkley are the antifa. They have assaulted dozens of innocents. Going on about this or that guy doesnt change anything. Antifa using your narrative is like the nazis pointing out a bad Jewish guy as an excuse to attack them all.
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
Man if your so passionate about this issue you must have been totally incensed when the American government went to war in Iraq over false pretenses. A million and a half Iraqi's dead due to the war and sanctions previous, half of Iraq's population during those times was under the age of 13. So how passionate are you about 500,000 plus dead children based on a pack of lies that has now destabilized A whole region of the world? I bet not as passionate as you are about ANTIFA who's death toll is 0.
n/a Chicup 2017-04-23
Goal posts shifting.
YOU. ARE. THE. BAD. GUYS.
And you know what? You are waking the right up. When real Nazi thinking returns look in the mirror.
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
Like white nationalism? Being anti Jewish or anti immigrant? Direct and indirect support of warfare and corporate dominance over political systems? Hating all of the left?
Do you understand what words mean?
But to you yeah who gives a fuk about 500,000 brown children. You couldn't even write one sentence about them...
Prescott Bush GWB's grandfather supported a Nazi coup in the United states which failed. After WW2 the American government use ex Nazi scientists and intelligence operatives in their military and covert practices. Virtually every war after WW2 that the Americans went into was unjustifiable. Glenn Beck as fuking stupid as he was, was an expert about the horrors of Joseph Goebbels. Lol in Glenn's case I guess that was just art imitating life.
And yet you think that there are no Nazi backwash leftovers.
n/a ReddCrowe 2017-04-23
Take your meds.
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
Shit I must be wearing my mirror suit again. Lemme take a selfie one sec.
https://cdn.thisiswhyimbroke.com/images/mirror-man-suit-640x533.jpg
Shit I was right and your argument at the same time is also true.
n/a ReddCrowe 2017-04-23
Taking your medication is always a good argument to make. Don't neglect your health! That goes for everyone.
brb gonna pop some klonopins.
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
6 downvotes... I guess the majority of the sub thinks that the Iraq war was a good thing. Show's what type of people you are.
Right wing nutjobs!
n/a Orsonius 2017-04-23
Please never vote again
n/a SovietWarfare 2017-04-23
Lowest tier bait I've ever seen. Sure the average libtard likes to think "muh nazi" is a problem, but in reality they aren't this delusional (with the exception of antifa). /u/SuburbanDinosaur I rate your bait roughly 2/10. However, you're lucky everyone on plebbit is basically a god damn degenerate retard so bait worked out.
n/a TheJum 2017-04-23
Hey, so you are a terrorist-apologist.
As a terrorist apologist, you facilitate and normalize terrorism, thereby making you also a terrorist.
Maybe a punch to your face(or 20 LOL), will cause you to rethink your ideas and stop spreading hate.
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
Supporting terrorists like the Mujaheddin, the Taliban and elements of ISIS? No wait that's the American government. Fuking fool!
n/a TheJum 2017-04-23
I didn't realize you were such an American patriot. Terrorist apologist and die hard American patriot.
Hey man, I don't judge. It's just now people gotta bash you twice instead of once.
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
How does what you wrote make any fuking sense?
n/a TheJum 2017-04-23
If not even you can follow your own logic accurately, why on earth do you think I could?
n/a notloz2 2017-04-23
Aren't you tired of being fearful and angry all the time? Maybe it's time you put the koolaid down son! In your world up is down, Feminists are like jihadists and liberals are cultural Marxists etc... Everything's all backwards. Serious question do you ever think that maybe you don't understand the proper definition of things?/ You're not educated?
You take crazy right wing definitions of things and believe that they're giving you the facts? Holy fuk, grow a brain!
n/a TheJum 2017-04-23
Definitions are only hard for those who would change them to suit their own agendas.
Everyone else just buys a dictionary.
n/a Schabernacken 2017-04-23
People like our autist here would die in east Germany. Where the real Nazis are. They would never leave their home and be scared shitless constantly. Until they snap more than they already are and starting to kill themselves or others.
/u/SuburbanDinosaur Be happy you are sheltered enough to bitch on the internet constantly about a nonexistent Nazi-Menace. But everyone can see you idiots are walking the same way fascists do.
We learn to tell the signs early on here. Your antics would not work here in Germany because everyone sees your movement for what it is. Fascism in disguise. So delete your account and do everyone a favor you fucking Brownshirt.
n/a Orsonius 2017-04-23
Muh traffic