Ah /r/europe, say one thing about how the Nazis were worse than the Soviets and you'll get swarmed by Eastern-Europeans claiming their grandmother was treated better by wehrmacht trooos than Red Army troops.
and then the Western Europeans and Northern Americans will start telling Eastern Euros how real Communism is a humanist economic system and has never been implemented on a macro level.
Nobody ever seems to point out that real Nazism has never been tried either. The theory/ideology behind it wasn't explicitly about genocide. Things just kinda sorta worked out that way. It gave all the good Nazis a bad name. ;_;
I honestly think that if hitler hadn't ruined facism's reputation, many european countries would be fascist. Think about it. Everything belongs to the state. Their country is the best country. Suppression of harmful opinions. It's like sweden: the ideology.
Communism lucked out and Lenin died quickly after seizing power before he could fully implement his genocidal policies, so communist can handwave the blame away to Stalin despite Lenin implementing all the policies and Stalin simply continuing them.
If Hitler had been assassinated in 1937-8, we would have the exact same situation. He would be remembered as a good statesman who built roads, revived a dead economy etc. Even if everything went on to be like it was in real life, there would be the constant argument that "this wasn't REAL fascism, if Hitler was alive things would have been different."
It's the new "The king is not to blame but his kind nature allowed the evil ministers to exploit his good deeds for evil".
I have seen people echo the not real National Socialism sentiment, but that is more because Hitler often manipulated party doctrine to suit his interest or for pragmatic reasons i.e honorary Aryans, and because he didn't abide by the 25 point plan of the NSDAP.
I imagine that those, who like Nazism, make this point to whitewash the ideology, but why is it so rarely used to counter the
country X wasn't really Communist! The ideology was hijacked by a dictator!
argument? Am I missing something? Why do so few people see, that if they say that some obviously Communist country wasn't really Communist, they might as well say that Nazi Germany wasn't really an implementation of National Socialism?
As far as I know, National Socialism has only been tried once, and by a non other than Hitler. While communism has been tried again and again, yet never really achieved.
How up in the air are those numbers anyway? I know that Berlin numbers are arrived at through some fairly silly feminist statistics, and somehow I doubt anything even approaching real numbers exist for the eastern front. Who the fuck even knows.
I don't know what you mean by "feminist" statistics, but yeah, both numbers have been calculated through kind of inaccurate means, so both numbers are greatly exaggerated which is why I put "approximately" in front of it. However, there really is no way to accurately estimate both numbers because of the sheer scale.
also, fuck you for making me seriouspost on /r/drama
regarding the numbers Beevor gives the following footnote:
p. 410 rape estimates, Dr Gerhard Reichling, and Charité and Kaiserin Auguste Victoria, quoted Sander and Johr, pp. 54, 59
In fact, it is a reference to a book by German feminists Helke Sander and Barbara Johr "Befreier und Befreite: Krieg, Vergewaltigung, Kinder". The Beevor's reference hints that the estimates are by the hospitals and only quoted by Johr and Sander, which is untrue.
In their book Sander and Johr define rape as any kind of sex with a person in power, including sex for food, prostitution, sex for getting job etc. This definition of rape is certainly not mainstream and does not reflect any country's criminal code. But Beevor does not warn the reader about the fact that Johr and Sander use a very specific definition of "rape".
The book includes an estimate of the rapes victims based on data from Berlin's clinic Kaiserin Auguste Victoria. From 01.09.1945 to 31.12.1946 this clinic registered 9 cases of rape by Russians (according the words of the women, as the clinic did not verify the validity of the claims):
In total there were 32 cases of kids born whose father was Russian. Sander and Johr assume that all children born to Russian fathers were a result of rape, excluding the possibility of voluntary relationships (how a German Aryan woman can voluntarily engage with those subhumans?).
Taking this data they postulate that of all 23124 kids born in Berlin 5% (1156) had Russian father (i.e. were result of rape).
Further they postulate that 90% raped (i.e. 90% of all women engaged with Russians) conducted abortion. This way they multiply 1156 by 10 to arrive at 11560 "raped".
By assuming that pregnancy followed a rape in 20% cases (based in the data from Charité) they miltiply the figure by 5 to arrive at 57800. They then assume that all women from 14 to 18 and older than 45 were raped in the same proportion (oh yes, Russians do not differ between a young woman and a 80-year-old hag) so to arrive at the figure of 110000 raped, derived from 9 reported rape cases.
Etc.
I mean, Soviets executed a few thousand soldiers for rape, so clearly the problem was widespread. But it's also clear that attempts at estimating the numbers were pretty wonky.
And this is because:
a) many of their grandparents or other older family members were born after WWII ( mine wasn't and saw and was tortured by both regimes) so they can't hear real live stories and horrors.
b) many Red army stayed of course and fucked us up beyond repair in many ways.
c) many forget history lessons and Hitlers plan for Eastern Europe.
Now about Usa and Western Europe:
a) During my time in Sweden, Norway and Belgium I heard educated (as they say) people glorifying Stalin's rule as a necessity and I was disgusted.
b) and it's not a suprise that all ,,red" subs and even the meme one banned me in my second day using reddit.
Sorry for being to serious r/drama, have a blast of a day you wankers, who knows you might even get laid or commit mayocide.
fascism is the name we apply to the results of authoritarian right-wing populism forming in coalition with conservatives
Fascism is the collapse of Capitalism and Capitalism's subsequent "correcting" of itself, the disciplining of labor and the liquidation of redundant bourgeoisie.
Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, high intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others
Ehrm, I'm sorry to tell you, but communism is at it's core a humanist idea (humans>nation). If you're a communist, chances are you're probably a nice enough guy.
48 comments
n/a SnapshillBot 2017-05-07
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n/a BrotherToaster 2017-05-07
Ah /r/europe, say one thing about how the Nazis were worse than the Soviets and you'll get swarmed by Eastern-Europeans claiming their grandmother was treated better by wehrmacht trooos than Red Army troops.
n/a cavides 2017-05-07
and then the Western Europeans and Northern Americans will start telling Eastern Euros how real Communism is a humanist economic system and has never been implemented on a macro level.
Nobody ever seems to point out that real Nazism has never been tried either. The theory/ideology behind it wasn't explicitly about genocide. Things just kinda sorta worked out that way. It gave all the good Nazis a bad name. ;_;
n/a BrotherToaster 2017-05-07
That too.
/r/europe is generally just a shithole, don't go there.
n/a SpectroSpecter 2017-05-07
I honestly think that if hitler hadn't ruined facism's reputation, many european countries would be fascist. Think about it. Everything belongs to the state. Their country is the best country. Suppression of harmful opinions. It's like sweden: the ideology.
n/a Kalamokavalaris 2017-05-07
Communism lucked out and Lenin died quickly after seizing power before he could fully implement his genocidal policies, so communist can handwave the blame away to Stalin despite Lenin implementing all the policies and Stalin simply continuing them.
If Hitler had been assassinated in 1937-8, we would have the exact same situation. He would be remembered as a good statesman who built roads, revived a dead economy etc. Even if everything went on to be like it was in real life, there would be the constant argument that "this wasn't REAL fascism, if Hitler was alive things would have been different."
It's the new "The king is not to blame but his kind nature allowed the evil ministers to exploit his good deeds for evil".
n/a Vendetta55 2017-05-07
I have seen people echo the not real National Socialism sentiment, but that is more because Hitler often manipulated party doctrine to suit his interest or for pragmatic reasons i.e honorary Aryans, and because he didn't abide by the 25 point plan of the NSDAP.
n/a cavides 2017-05-07
I imagine that those, who like Nazism, make this point to whitewash the ideology, but why is it so rarely used to counter the
argument? Am I missing something? Why do so few people see, that if they say that some obviously Communist country wasn't really Communist, they might as well say that Nazi Germany wasn't really an implementation of National Socialism?
n/a Stuntman119 2017-05-07
As far as I know, National Socialism has only been tried once, and by a non other than Hitler. While communism has been tried again and again, yet never really achieved.
n/a grungebot5000 2017-05-07
because nobody gives enough of a shit about national socialism to save it from being defined by Hitler's reign
n/a I_DRINK_TO_FORGET 2017-05-07
Probably true though. Commies loved rape 2x as much.
n/a BrotherToaster 2017-05-07
k
n/a DistortedLines 2017-05-07
Wtf i love commie rapists now
n/a eskachig 2017-05-07
How up in the air are those numbers anyway? I know that Berlin numbers are arrived at through some fairly silly feminist statistics, and somehow I doubt anything even approaching real numbers exist for the eastern front. Who the fuck even knows.
n/a BrotherToaster 2017-05-07
I don't know what you mean by "feminist" statistics, but yeah, both numbers have been calculated through kind of inaccurate means, so both numbers are greatly exaggerated which is why I put "approximately" in front of it. However, there really is no way to accurately estimate both numbers because of the sheer scale.
also, fuck you for making me seriouspost on /r/drama
n/a eskachig 2017-05-07
Stuff like this basically:
Etc.
I mean, Soviets executed a few thousand soldiers for rape, so clearly the problem was widespread. But it's also clear that attempts at estimating the numbers were pretty wonky.
n/a BrotherToaster 2017-05-07
Pretty much, yeah. It's pretty much impossible to get the precise number, or even somewhere close to it.
n/a mehforeverybody 2017-05-07
And this is because: a) many of their grandparents or other older family members were born after WWII ( mine wasn't and saw and was tortured by both regimes) so they can't hear real live stories and horrors. b) many Red army stayed of course and fucked us up beyond repair in many ways. c) many forget history lessons and Hitlers plan for Eastern Europe. Now about Usa and Western Europe: a) During my time in Sweden, Norway and Belgium I heard educated (as they say) people glorifying Stalin's rule as a necessity and I was disgusted. b) and it's not a suprise that all ,,red" subs and even the meme one banned me in my second day using reddit. Sorry for being to serious r/drama, have a blast of a day you wankers, who knows you might even get laid or commit mayocide.
n/a high_side 2017-05-07
Maybe I should have sorted by controversial. Looked like a bunch of canadians arguing.
n/a YourLocalMonarchist 2017-05-07
I think they're confused. It sounds like they're talking about National Socialism instead of fascism.
n/a WearyTunes 2017-05-07
i wouldn't characterize fascism as elitist, either.
they were pretty explicitly anti-rationalist, and spawned a huge esoteric revival.
one of the major theories is that fascism was the result of authoritarian right-wing populism forming in coalition with conservatives
n/a EloeOmoe 2017-05-07
Fascism is the collapse of Capitalism and Capitalism's subsequent "correcting" of itself, the disciplining of labor and the liquidation of redundant bourgeoisie.
n/a WearyTunes 2017-05-07
the second period called,
n/a Pablopubes 2017-05-07
Oh shit, /u/EloeOmoe BTFO
n/a EloeOmoe 2017-05-07
I AM HUMAN AND I NEED TO BE LOVED
n/a grungebot5000 2017-05-07
"the strong" are a kind of elite. it's elitist, just a very right-wing elitist
n/a WearyTunes 2017-05-07
that's not how we define elitism in politics
n/a grungebot5000 2017-05-07
sounds like the pure native strong to me
n/a WearyTunes 2017-05-07
That's not what the nazis believed though. The explicitly considered themselves to be against the elite.
Think about the stabbed in the back myth, and the word "elite" with (((echos))) around it.
n/a grungebot5000 2017-05-07
they were against the GREEDY elite, which they wanted to supplant with a new, strong, PURE elite.
they were elitists, they just thought the elite in charge was the wrong one
n/a WearyTunes 2017-05-07
again, you're misunderstanding how elitism is used in politics.
n/a grungebot5000 2017-05-07
I think you're treating the kind of elitism that's currently in vogue in American politics as the only kind of elitism in politics
n/a grungebot5000 2017-05-07
sure but the prompt says nazism so
n/a theherps 2017-05-07
Problem solved
n/a DistortedLines 2017-05-07
Fuck i was literally about to post this again
n/a I_AMA_UNIDAN 2017-05-07
this tbh
n/a UmmahSultan 2017-05-07
You just know the executioner owns stock in the company that makes the gas, though. That's why he's so happy.
n/a LemonScore 2017-05-07
Topkek
n/a jPaolo 2017-05-07
that's not how you spell "moronic"
n/a unstable_asteroid 2017-05-07
If Pol Pot was being nice then what is not being nice like?
n/a freet0 2017-05-07
It's always
n/a LiberatorFalcon 2017-05-07
Nazis want to kill people only of certain ethnicities. Communists are against such discrimination!
n/a grungebot5000 2017-05-07
n/a freet0 2017-05-07
You can tell it's a good system of government when it breaks down in populations greater than 100 people.
n/a grungebot5000 2017-05-07
maybe the perfect elemental unit of government is 100 people, don't judge fgt
n/a StingAuer 2017-05-07
In these conversations when they say Communist, they mean Soviets.
I'd prefer soviets over nazis tbh. Soviets would kill you for being "counterrevolutionary". Nazis would kill you for... idk wrong kind of white?
n/a Stuntman119 2017-05-07
Well I'm the right kind of white, so I'd probably find a Nazi Europe quite comfy.
n/a StingAuer 2017-05-07
bitch please if you're posting on /r/drama you're definitely the kind of mentally unfit that would get you put in a death camp.
n/a Gothmog26 2017-05-07
Soviet's would also kill you for being disabled.
n/a grungebot5000 2017-05-07
well they both would, that ain't much of a tiebreaker
n/a -Princeps- 2017-05-07
https://i.redd.it/dvyq1ledrusx.jpg