Hillbots have difficulty differentiating reality from hate. Brockbots probably have less as they're being paid for their drivel, which should give even the densest of them at least a bit of a clue..
Oh, yes, it's all true. David Brick is paying me to post a /r/WayOfTheBern thread to /r/drama. After careful analysis, it became clear that WayOfTheBern is the single greatest threat to the Demilluminati and /r/drama is our only hope to fight back against the powerful block of Trump supporting roleplayers very real Sanders supporting republican voters. Now that you've outed me, it's all over.
Shit I like Sanders and a lot of the policies he proposed even if they definitely need some tweaking but out off all the subs I'm subscribed to that have to do with Sanders, this will never be one of them. They're not even pushing progressive or further left policies in there. Opening a dialogue with the Donald and what they talk about there is fucking retarded. Someone should send them to see the not self censored Trumpets on voat. /u/SpudDK/u/FTthumb/u/RuffianGhostHorse Any comments on why WayOfTheBurn has turned into a complete shithole that has nothing really to do with Bernie, democratic socialism, progressive policies, actual left primary candidates or discussing comrpromises with people who aren't praising a wanna be authoritarian judging by the front page of the sub?
[–]HangryHipppo 5 points 22 hours ago
So do you actually support what he's doing in office?
[–]FamburgerHelper 6 points 22 hours ago
Not all of it, but a lot of it, yes.
Wasn't meant to be nice. If you like a lot of what Trumps doing in office currently or his plans you may as well go join the Republicans and the Alt right. Attacking journalist, attacking courts, attacking the EPA, cutting regulations, trying to open up public land for more privatization, promoting theocracy, race/religion based immigration policies, completely unqualified appointees, using the office to enrich himself and his family, I could go on... none of those things are anywhere close to progressive or even centrist.
okay but I don't see how pinging someone's username to call them an idiot is doing literally anything besides being a child
They're free to come here and defend what the like about what trump is doing in office, he's literally against everything Bernie campaigned on, so I'd love to hear it. It's /r/drama btw pinging and starting more drama is what we do sometimes here tbqh.
then again internet activism is the only thing lazy plebs can do nowadays so I guess I'm not surprised
Lol. No need to project. I guess actually going to street protest/marches and doing volunteer work for multiple political campaigns of candidates including Bernie's campaign when I have free time and aren't caught up with other obligations is slacktivism now. TIL.
Well, butt-hurt establishment shill, while deep-sixing the TPP deserves honorable mention by far the thing I most like about Trump is that he threw a yuuuge monkey wrench into further solidifying the until now iron grip of the corrupt Democratic establishment on the only party with any hope of getting the country back on the track that establishment deserted a quarter century ago.
So now Bernie is flying high while the party establishment is lying low save when they attempt to catch a few rays of reflected popularity by attaching themselves to his appearances. His platform is still getting great exposure and support and as a result the American public is learning more about progressive positions than ever while really not appearing to give a damn that the party establishment is not happy with this.
Now that's progress of a sort we haven't seen since the '60s and certainly weren't seeing under any Democratic leadership since the '70s (which is why the party has been getting thrashed at all levels since Obama deliberately raised such grand expectations for 'change we can believe in' and 'an end to business as usual' and then dashed them nearly continuously during his 8 pathetic years in office).
If putting up with some significant temporary pain (as opposed to the creeping pain the party has been quietly visiting upon us that eventually leads to the same place) is what it takes to get decent representation again in government I'm all for it. Bernie can't support such tactics because of the environment in which he needs to operate to be effective, and people who still manage to find excuses for the party establishment despite what we've seen over the past year-plus may be completely lost causes, though given that they didn't seem to be overly bothered by the utter failure of the party establishment to mount any real opposition to the 2003 invasion of Iraq and turned a completely blind eye to the establishment's behind-the-scenes sabotaging of the Affordable Care Act - information here for those who just weren't paying attention - this may not be all that surprising: being a knee-jerk partisan is a lot more comfortable for many people than actually exercising their critical faculties (if indeed they have any).
How nice that you put on your cute little pink hat to protest/march and even do volunteer work for candidates (when you have free time, anyway). My own political activity began in 1968 when I first started protesting and risked serious jail time by refusing to be inducted at the height of the Vietnam War (I was a lot luckier than most: my draft board reclassified me as a conscientious objector and assigned me to alternative service as an orderly in a mental hospital), and while my activism was less intense until 2003 I supported Dean's candidacy with canvassing, 'phone banking, and donations and did all of those much more intensely for Bernie last year (plus some for the Berniecrats who supported him). And since I did take very seriously the failure of the Democratic establishment (save for a few vocal and honorable souls) to mount any serious opposition to the invasion of Iraq I haven't lifted a finger (or cast a vote) to support them since them, and sent the leadership letters shortly before they shoved their crapified version of the ACA down our throats that if they did not include a public option in it I'd be voting Republican against them in any national race where my vote might have a higher-than-normal probability of making a difference until they corrected that error (fortunately, I needed to make good on that promise only once until last November, since I far prefer voting Green).
If you weren't so keen on spewing incompetent drivel you might have noticed that a lot of us at Way of the Bern are similarly more concerned about evicting the crap leadership of the party so that the party can become useful once again than putting on pussy hats. So 'McFluff' seems like an appropriate username for you: you wouldn't recognize a serious progressive effort if it jumped up and bit off half your ass.
Well, butt-hurt establishment shill, while deep-sixing the TPP deserves honorable mention by far the thing I most like about Trump is that he threw a yuuuge monkey wrench into further solidifying the until now iron grip of the corrupt Democratic establishment on the only party with any hope of getting the country back on the track that establishment deserted a quarter century ago.
So now Bernie is flying high while the party establishment is lying low save when they attempt to catch a few rays of reflected popularity by attaching themselves to his appearances. His platform is still getting great exposure and support and as a result the American public is learning more about progressive positions than ever while really not appearing to give a damn that the party establishment is not happy with this.
Now that's progress of a sort we haven't seen since the '60s and certainly weren't seeing under any Democratic leadership since the '70s (which is why the party has been getting thrashed at all levels since Obama deliberately raised such grand expectations for 'change we can believe in' and 'an end to business as usual' and then dashed them nearly continuously during his 8 pathetic years in office).
If putting up with some significant temporary pain (as opposed to the creeping pain the party has been quietly visiting upon us that eventually leads to the same place) is what it takes to get decent representation again in government I'm all for it. Bernie can't support such tactics because of the environment in which he needs to operate to be effective, and people who still manage to find excuses for the party establishment despite what we've seen over the past year-plus may be completely lost causes, though given that they didn't seem to be overly bothered by the utter failure of the party establishment to mount any real opposition to the 2003 invasion of Iraq and turned a completely blind eye to the establishment's behind-the-scenes sabotaging of the Affordable Care Act - information here for those who just weren't paying attention - this may not be all that surprising: being a knee-jerk partisan is a lot more comfortable for many people than actually exercising their critical faculties (if indeed they have any).
How nice that you put on your cute little pink hat to protest/march and even do volunteer work for candidates (when you have free time, anyway). My own political activity began in 1968 when I first started protesting and risked serious jail time by refusing to be inducted at the height of the Vietnam War (I was a lot luckier than most: my draft board reclassified me as a conscientious objector and assigned me to alternative service as an orderly in a mental hospital), and while my activism was less intense until 2003 I supported Dean's candidacy with canvassing, 'phone banking, and donations and did all of those much more intensely for Bernie last year (plus some for the Berniecrats who supported him). And since I did take very seriously the failure of the Democratic establishment (save for a few vocal and honorable souls) to mount any serious opposition to the invasion of Iraq I haven't lifted a finger (or cast a vote) to support them since them, and sent the leadership letters shortly before they shoved their crapified version of the ACA down our throats that if they did not include a public option in it I'd be voting Republican against them in any national race where my vote might have a higher-than-normal probability of making a difference until they corrected that error (fortunately, I needed to make good on that promise only once until last November, since I far prefer voting Green).
If you weren't so keen on spewing incompetent drivel you might have noticed that a lot of us at Way of the Bern are similarly more concerned about evicting the crap leadership of the party so that the party can become useful once again than putting on pussy hats. So 'McFluff' seems like an appropriate username for you: you wouldn't recognize a serious progressive effort if it jumped up and bit off half your ass.
Only if you're too dense to understand that force is the only thing the Democratic establishment understands, and that if we can't change them or kick them out we'll wind up in the same place the Republicans are taking us along with that establishment.
Otherwise, it makes perfect sense. But since it's far too uncomfortable for knee-jerk partisans to contemplate the establishment still has a pretty strong lock on their support even though that hasn't been sufficient to regain any lost ground against Republicans at any level of government since Obama won in 2008 and then turned out to be such a disappointment.
It's amusing how the establishment kept asserting so insistently last fall that they didn't need no stinkin' progressives and would make up any losses with newly attracted Republicans. Turns out they were wrong, but they're still acting as if they'd been proven right so we'll just have to keep beating their brains out until we prevail.
In contrast, I've held since 2004 that it wouldn't take many defecting progressives to tip the balance in a great many elections, and while it took a while for enough progressives to get sufficiently disgusted to defect I turn out to have been right.
By voting Republican you'll just shift the Dems more to the right. You don't have to be a partisan to see that. Or American, for that matter. I'm neither
Then you have more excuse for your political ignorance than a lot of people here have.
Republican wins are what the Democratic establishment uses as their excuse for moving to the right, regardless of whether the win is due to actual support for Republicans (rare in anything but clear 'red state'-style situations) or to Democratic voters just staying home due to increasing distaste for the corporatists the Democratic establishment insists upon foisting on us.
But I have no interest in trying to 'reform' that Democratic establishment because, especially after seeing them in such overt action last year, I don't believe that such reform is possible. Rather, I want to destroy them by kicking them out of office even if it takes voting Republican to do it (though I'd joyfully do so instead by defeating them with progressives in the corrupt Democratic nominating process where that was possible).
Consider that virtually the entire Democratic establishment backed Hillary (a household name for the past quarter century) in last year's Democratic primary contest yet an obscure self-proclaimed democratic socialist from a small state came close to winning the nomination. The Democratic grassroots responded remarkably to him despite the overt opposition of their party's establishment, and without that opposition far more would have supported him. Polling has consistently indicated that the majority of Americans support most of his policy positions. It's not 'the Dems', or the American public, or those nasty Republicans, or the Russians (gasp!) who are preventing our country from putting its house in order: it's the Democratic establishment which dances so well with its Republican counterpart in our political duopoly that we've been locked into this downward spiral since the neoliberals took it over, and the only obvious way out is to break that establishment and thereby break the logjam which it cooperates in creating.
So you hate the Democrats for being too close to the republicans, and as punishment you vote Republican... How can you think that's a good solution. If you voted Green I could understand, but this is just idiocy.
As I said, your ignorance about our politics is more understandable than that of many here. I voted for Nader in 2004 and 2008 and for Stein in 2012 because (as I described previously) my presidential vote was pretty clearly not going to affect the outcome in my state (hence not in the country either), but did not kid myself that this was anything more than symbolic because here in the U.S. the Green party is monumentally ineffective even though their hearts are in the right place (and the fact that they still did poorly last November despite running against two utterly awful major-party candidates demonstrates the depth of their ineptitude and/or the effectiveness of the major parties in having completely marginalized their influence).
I don't "hate the Democrats for being too close to the Republicans", I hate the Democratic establishment for surreptitiously cooperating with the Republican establishment in sustaining our transition to an oligarchical and increasingly fascist nation. And I don't want to 'punish' that establishment, I want to destroy it because it is the primary obstacle to reversing that trend.
If you've got a better suggestion I'll happily listen to it. But don't kid yourself that the Democratic establishment is going to solve it in any way: they had their chance with control of the presidency and substantial majorities in both Houses of Congress in 2009 - 2011 and all we got out of it was Republican-inspired 'health-care reform', continuation and in some cases accentuation of Bush's policies of aggression and encroachment on civil liberties, the offer of a 'grand bargain' that included significant destruction of our social safety net to Republicans which, thankfully, they rejected, and a lot of silver-tongued rhetoric to make us feel better.
You'll really do a lot better wrapping your mind around all this if you begin by entertaining the possibility that a great deal of what you think you know is simply not true. That's very difficult for knee-jerk party members (of any party) to do here in the U.S., but as a foreigner you might be less inflexible.
You still haven't explained how voting for the republicans is supposed to make a difference. So you destroy the Democrats and the gop now rules everything. Congratulations?
You seem have real difficulty differentiating between 'the Democrats' and 'the Democratic establishment' despite my consistent distinctions between the two. Destroying the Democratic establishment does not entail destroying the Democratic party let alone the grassroots which adhere to it: it simply entails kicking them out of office to destroy their ability to use those offices to obtain support from the special interests which own them, making it far more possible to replace them first as candidates and then as office-holders with people worthy of support.
We've tried doing that piece-meal for a generation now and found that the establishment quickly co-opts any progressive Democrat whom we manage to sneak into national office: the establishment uses them in a 'rotating villains' strategy which makes sure they have their support when they actually need it but leaves them free to look good to their progressive supporters the rest of the time (while other progressives get their turn at playing the villains).
So we need to break the back of the establishment much more thoroughly to make any headway. It may be possible to elevate enough real progressives at once to buck the establishment effectively before it has been destroyed, in which case possibilities for some kind of negotiated settlement may open up, but I'm not optimistic about that.
As for the GOP, right now it pretty much already rules everything and the country doesn't seem to like that very much. So believing that if we can reform the Democratic party then it will get the support it needs to win does not seem to me to be represent much of a stretch of the imagination.
Pretty much nothing more than already has. Sorry to have found you to be ineducable, but that's a common affliction - especially when it comes to politics - so you can find solace in having a great deal of company.
Hey, shithead: I came to these conclusions on my own based on my own observations of Democratic establishment corruption. LONG before the past political season. And after 36 years as a registered Democrat (it was 48 years before I reregistered as an independent in disgust last September) Just because you've got your eyes far too tightly shut to see any of it yourself is no basis for claiming that people with their eyes open are experiencing delusions.
You're presumably against Republican policies, but you're keeping them in power with your vote. No matter how you rationalize it, that makes you a useful idiot
You really do seem to be not only ineducable but completely calcified in your thinking (i.e., nothing new gets in, and nothing useful comes out). If I were more charitable I'd pity you, but since you're an active impediment to progress I really don't have the time to - I rather pity those who your intransigence condemns to pain and suffering.
Here I've been bemoaning the decline in the quality of U.S. education for decades and assuming that the rest of the world was doing better. Oh, well - so much for that comforting illusion.
You just can't wrap what passes for your brain around strategic voting, can you. Hint: the strategy is one which trades off temporary pain for eventual gain because no other option (and you certainly didn't come up with an alternative, even an idiotic one, when invited to do so) offers that eventual gain.
The main difficulty in writing a bot with more intelligence than you've been demonstrating would be not in its logic routines but in its ability to mimic a sentient being in a discussion.
Complex thinking is clearly not your forte. I guess you're a lot more comfortable that way, but trying to score childish points in an effort to make up for that deficit really isn't particularly effective but if anything the opposite.
Thanks for putting the largest army on the planet in the hands of a moronic narcissistic reality TV star because your preferred Democrat didn't get enough votes in the primaries.
Are you actually autistic? You just can't get beyond "Republicans BAD!!!" to understand that sometimes the only way to get to making things better (since you didn't see fit to offer up any alternative) is to tolerate a bit of BAD!!! on the way there.
(Not, of course, that Hillary was necessarily better: she was dead-set on stirring up shit with Russia, which is close to as BAD!!! as things get given their nuclear capabilities.)
You also appear to be functionally illiterate, as I did make it clear that I started voting Republican in the circumstances which obtained last November a full 7 years ago, so it really couldn't have had anything to do with last year's primaries.
Perhaps you really are a bot programmed to regurgitate establishment talking points regardless of their applicability. That would explain a lot.
So you've been voting Republican for 7 years. Seems to have worked out splendidly. They now control all three branches of government. Congratulations! You've been an agent of change
It's a work in progress, and so far progress, though slow, is satisfactory - with a very encouraging up-tick last November resulting in great continuing exposure for Bernie's positions (especially when compared to the basement closet he'd have been relegated to had Hillary won) and serious attention being paid by the American public for the first time since Obama's inspiring campaign 9 years ago (you know: the campaign which left supporters so disillusioned by his abysmal failure even to try to follow through on his great rhetoric that the Republicans took control in the very next election and have been increasing it ever since).
The bottom line is that some progressives and a lot of just common people get fed up waiting for the rest of the Democratic party to decide that their party establishment was no longer an acceptable 'lesser evil' and demand real change. The rest of the Democrats (like you, but actual voters) responded with outrage at having their divine right to be the ones to decide exactly when and how to move usurped.
Well, tough shit: you snooze, you lose. Change is starting and the one sure thing is that we're not going back to the status quo ante. So hop on the train or get left behind.
(And I had to vote Republican only once before last November, so the personal cost was really minimal. Couldn't be happier, given the alternative.)
Seriously though, I understand that the US electoral system is a tragic disaster and that you would get sick of it after decades of this nonsense. I know it's not your fault and I would probably get really frustrated about it too. I'm glad I live in a democracy with proportional representation where my membership of a small green party actually makes a tangible difference. Hopefully things change fundamentally in the US before things fall apart. Until then, I think it's a serious mistake to reward a sexist, racist, destructive party of legit sociopaths led by one of the most incompetent leaders the world has ever seen for the failings of their only serious, albeit seriously flawed and corrupt opposition, but I can see that I'm not going to change your mind on that. I wish you would just consider it instead of calling me an idiot about it.
I had wondered whether you might be blinded by having access to a system which allowed better solutions than ours does. But you still don't understand why the solution I'm pursuing makes sense in the system we've got.
It's not a matter of frustration but of simple reality. We've only got two options to work with, neither is remotely acceptable, and both cooperate to ensure that no other option can arise (the only exception in living memory having been Ross Perot's on-again/off-again campaign 25 years ago, a self-funded fluke in an unusually up-for-grabs situation). But the two options we have are quite different - not in their mutual support of an oppressive and dangerous oligarchy (dangerous to you as well, and that bothers me more than the danger to us because we're ultimately responsible for the government we've got while you don't get any say in it but can still suffer serious consequences if we don't fix it), but in what actions we have available to us to get out of the mess we're in.
Option 1, which you advocate, is to support the short-term 'lesser evil'. Prior to the rise of the Democratic Leadership Conference/Third Way/New Democrat style of neoliberalism (and/or prior to the demise of the Soviet Union as a counter-weight to the U.S., as the two are not entirely unrelated) that option did not work all that badly for us and for (much of) the rest of the world, but after the 'Reagan Revolution' that began the systematic destruction of the reforms put in place during the Roosevelt 'New Deal' Option 1 went increasingly off the rails and brought us to where we are today.
Option 2, which is what the country marginally voted for last November out of desperation because it had become clear that Option 1 was taking us somewhere completely unacceptable (albeit in a superficially 'kinder, gentler' way than Option 2 promised to), is clearly a short-term disaster but offers the possibility of shaking up the system enough to allow Option 1 to be reformed (reforming Option 2 was never a possibility and destroying it would have accomplished nothing, because Option 1 was taking us in the same direction while at the same time preventing any Option 3 from developing on its left).
So for those of us on the left who failed to support Option 1 last year or even voted for Option 2 it was never a desire to 'reward' Option 2 but a Hail Mary! effort to destabilize Option 1 sufficiently to reform it. We've seen all too clearly what choosing Option 1 has led to for the past 25 years and know where that route leads. We saw last year (those us who hadn't seen it earlier) exactly how strongly entrenched and implacable the leadership of Option 1 was. And those of us who had glimpsed enough of that earlier had also seen just how reluctant the rest of the public was to recognize the situation (because recognizing that your government is your enemy is extremely uncomfortable for anyone who is able to tolerate the existing level of oppression) and understood that last year represented an unusual opportunity to shake up the situation with something short of a potentially violent revolution of a sort that our country has never experienced - not even at its inception and not during our 'Civil War', which was something quite different - but which observation of those which have appears to be something we should try to avoid if at all possible.
So when you say that you wish I would just consider the situation my response is that I've been considering this specific situation very seriously indeed for the past 14 years and the more general situation with increasing concern for the past 36 (i.e., since the Reagan Revolution turned our country hard to the right and made me wonder just what the hell was going on). And when you parrot establishment talking-points and dismiss us as 'frustrated by' and 'sick of' the situation it makes it pretty clear that you simply don't have a clue what we're facing, though your last comment suggests that your intentions may be better and your mind less closed than seemed to be the case earlier.
Well this sub usually doesn't really permit serious conversation, so that's why I didn't bother getting into an actual discussion. I appreciate the detailed explanation, but I still do not agree. I'm not American, but I'm pretty familiar with the political situation, and I think we're both on the same side when it comes to the diagnosis - sick and frustrated are surely euphemisms.
However, while you might not see your vote as a reward, that's exactly how it is counted. Afaik you're still not allowed to staple an essay explaining your motivations to the ballot, so your gop vote gets counted exactly the same as all the others.
It seems like your strategy is accelerationism, which is not the obvious or logical choice you put it as. Even Noam Chomsky, who shares many of the same concerns about neoliberalism and everything else you just wrote advocated voting blue wherever your vote makes a difference. Accelerationism is a dangerous gamble which isn't likely to pay off in my estimation.
You still clearly don't get it. It certainly matters that my vote gets counted but I don't give a shit how it is perceived because it's being used as a weapon, not a symbol.
And a strategy of using one's vote as a weapon against a party establishment which is implacably getting in the way is not at all the same thing as accelerationism even though some immediate consequences may be similar.
Chomsky is almost always right on the issues but is nowhere nearly as dependable when it comes to strategy (which is a nearly inevitable consequence of being an ideologue, valuable though he may be in that role).
I will ask you once again, what's your proposed alternative that will get us somewhere that we actually want to go rather than just slightly reduce the speed with which we're going in the wrong direction?
Why increase the speed of going in the wrong direction instead of decrease if not for accelerationist purposes? Or do you really believe that the Democrats are worse and more corrupt than the Republicans? Because one could make the inverse argument - to vote Democrat to ensure the reform of the GOP. If your 'weapon' is casting a vote for an ultra conservative party, it doesn't seem to be a very effective weapon.
There is no perfect solution, but mounting a better primary challenge to corrupt Dems is surely a start? Bernie got very close this time, and while your might believe it was all rigged, it was definitely a wake-up call. Next time you might succeed. Contest local elections, get elected yourself, wage a propaganda war to convince that large proportion of Americans who are more susceptible to racist demagogues that there are better solutions - class awareness can be enacted in many ways.
Why increase the speed of going in the wrong direction instead of decrease if not for accelerationist purposes?
Keep re-reading my previous reply until you understand it.
Or do you really believe that the Democrats are worse and more corrupt than the Republicans?
Keep re-reading my earlier replies until you understand them.
Because one could make the inverse argument - to vote Democrat to ensure the reform of the GOP.
See above.
If your 'weapon' is casting a vote for an ultra conservative party, it doesn't seem to be a very effective weapon.
And your better one is...?
mounting a better primary challenge to corrupt Dems is surely a start?
Well, at least that's (finally) a concrete suggestion.
it was definitely a wake-up call
Yes, it was - but, unfortunately, at least as much for the Democratic establishment as it was for the public, and they are quickly moving to answer it with more of the same.
Next time you might succeed.
Not if they have anything to say about it, and as we saw last year once they actually woke up to the challenge they had a great deal to say (and do) about it.
Contest local elections, get elected yourself
That effort is already under way, but it's a parallel one rather than a substitute because that route takes a long time to work its way upward if it can do so at all given the resistance from above - which why that resistance must be weakened top-down.
large proportion of Americans who are more susceptible to racist demagogues
You're back to parroting establishment talking-points again.
class awareness can be enacted in many ways
Indeed it can, and the combination of Bernie's campaign and Hillary's defeat last year are two of the best that we've found in a long time.
I'm not those people, but that sub has always been open for discussions. Anyone is welcome to go argue their opinion their and anyone is welcome to refute it.
Then why isn't just called political discussion or something, it pretty obviously has grown to have nothing to do with Bern, politicians similar to him, or any of the other things I listed in my other comment.
I guess simpletons would think so. Some people prefer to think for themselves rather than regurgitate what they're told by people who, admittedly, are probably smarter than they are even though more likely to be pursuing an agenda rather than the truth.
I think that's what it was from the beginning. Either they're dumb as rocks and they don't realize they're being manipulatd by T_D, or they're all just Trumpshills pretending together
Any of the other progressive or Bernie sub? r/OurPresident /r/SandersForPresident/r/Progressive ? There's more out there but Wayofthebern has gone way way downhill. Here's a question since Wayofthebern seems to want to "open a dialogue" with trump supporters have you seen what non heavy moderated trump supporters say when they don't have a self imposed filter? Where do you think your going to get talking to people who refer to "non whites" as "kikes, niggers, spiks, race traitors, cucks, the list goes on" and promote things like "physical removal" aka genocide/concentration camps? We've got plenty of links if you need proof.
Nothinf to feel bad about, maybe you should though since your sub seems to have abandoning anything meaningful. Are you going to answer my question?
Any comments on why WayOfTheBurn has turned into a complete shithole that has nothing really to do with Bernie, democratic socialism, progressive policies, actual left primary candidates or discussing comrpromises with people who aren't praising a wanna be authoritarian judging by the front page of the sub?
I posed the question you and the other top mods, so I'm guessing you don't have an answer or see attacking the DNC (which deserves some critism) as a priority above promoting the actual "Wayofthebern" (I.e. The things I listed above which are things Bernie actual publicly says he supports). How about a different question, are you happy with the current state of the sub?
Is your non substance circle jerky rally rambling in that sticky over there supposed to be an actual answer to how you feel the subs going? Still not seeing any answers to my other questions on your front page or on your side bar, even though with that sidebar you may as well have named the sub political discussion, the only thing related to actual progressivism is a few links to other places.
Lol. "Loaded questions", my questions were pretty simple. Answering or directly pointing to the answers to the questions I pointing to where I can find the answers isn't spoonfeeding, pointing to a sub and saying find it is like throwing a stack of papers all over the table and saying hey idk it's somewhere in there maybe. But whatever, enjoy your Anti progressive, anti bern, Seth rich memeing sub. Your doing more to hurt us people who actually want to move some to the left than helping.
So you need your little army to defend your positions, or elaborate on them or you just hold no real ones? You should be able to defend your stances without your subscribers to back up your personal views.
Step Aside.
😂 Please, with your non answers you should step down as a mod your a horrible representative for Wotb.
The only person responding like they have some kind of entitlement is you with your condescending attitude. If you want to alienate people who supposedly have similar views as you by not even attempting to answer basic questions or guide them to where they can find them, guess who you sound like? Primaries Hillary.
They weren't loaded to begin with just because you didn't like your sub being critized doesn't mean the questions are automatically loaded 🙄. I asked YOU for your personal opinion, you didn't want to give it and then continue to respond combatively and condescendingly, which would be fine in /r/drama tbh but I was actually looking for your opinion and still with not a even attempt to answer. All that effort you could have answered 5 to 6 questions but whatever, there's no need for you to respond to me here anymore. Have a nice day.
Let me contemplate it
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Oh and btw I took your advice and tried posing my questions to your sub with full disclosure since I figured they'd check my post history and the only response so far is downvotes for even asking and telling me "don't let the door hit me on the way out" so yeah... very welcoming for discussion.
i mean they spent the entire general election cycle buying into right wing / russian / fake news stories spinning mundane HRC and Podesta emails into epic scandals, this is nothing new
The whole Seth Rich thing is the new pizzagate. The only actual source behind it, a man formerly famous for claiming that lesbian gangs roamed the country turning children gay, has retracted his comments. The family has pleaded with people to stop defaming their son's name. Instead, Trumpers (and now Berniecrats?) are cyber stalking his reddit accounts in order and compiling a list of his likes and interests, in the hopes that this will somehow lead them to actual evidence for their case.
"On Monday night, Rod Wheeler, a private investigator and Fox News contributor, put things in motion during an interview with WTTG-TV, a Fox affiliate in Washington... But Tuesday afternoon, Wheeler told CNN he had no evidence to suggest Rich had contacted Wikileaks before his death."
It was a thing right when Rich was murdered, but this recent fake story was what put it back in the limelight again.
Wait, so CNN is trying to bury Wheeler for making a claim without presenting any evidence?
Meanwhile, CNN, WaPo, and the NYT have been printing every water cooler rumor in Washington as verified gospel for the last few weeks and calling it journalism.
Not having a source and having an anonymous sourc le are very different thing. Usually the anonymous sources are either high placed intelligence officers or staffers for Trump himself who are leaking with the explicit goal of influencing the media narrative. And when someone wants something leaked, they'll always find at lease one media outfit that will cover them.
I mean, feel free to not listen to stories that have anonymous sources, sure, but most of the more controversial claims we're confirmed by Trump on Twitter within the day.
121 comments
n/a SnapshillBot 2017-05-21
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Snapshots:
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n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
Nice quote, nerd
n/a Plexipus 2017-05-21
Snapshill does it again!
n/a working_class_shill 2017-05-21
this is ironic right?
I don't see how anyone could seriously believe this.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
Are you from that hate sub?
n/a working_class_shill 2017-05-21
its a hate sub?
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
Please stop harassing me
n/a working_class_shill 2017-05-21
... what?
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Hillbots have difficulty differentiating reality from hate. Brockbots probably have less as they're being paid for their drivel, which should give even the densest of them at least a bit of a clue..
n/a OldOrder 2017-05-21
Yeah, but post bussy tho
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
Oh, yes, it's all true. David Brick is paying me to post a /r/WayOfTheBern thread to /r/drama. After careful analysis, it became clear that WayOfTheBern is the single greatest threat to the Demilluminati and /r/drama is our only hope to fight back against the powerful block of
Trump supporting roleplayersvery real Sanders supporting republican voters. Now that you've outed me, it's all over.n/a GladysCravesRitz 2017-05-21
It's a thing they are trying. Because they are desperate.
n/a ahbslldud 2017-05-21
Where the fuck do you think you are?
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Brock Utopia seems like a reasonable guess.
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
Shit I like Sanders and a lot of the policies he proposed even if they definitely need some tweaking but out off all the subs I'm subscribed to that have to do with Sanders, this will never be one of them. They're not even pushing progressive or further left policies in there. Opening a dialogue with the Donald and what they talk about there is fucking retarded. Someone should send them to see the not self censored Trumpets on voat. /u/SpudDK /u/FTthumb /u/RuffianGhostHorse Any comments on why WayOfTheBurn has turned into a complete shithole that has nothing really to do with Bernie, democratic socialism, progressive policies, actual left primary candidates or discussing comrpromises with people who aren't praising a wanna be authoritarian judging by the front page of the sub?
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
Oh and /u/Famburgerhelper you're an idiot.
n/a working_class_shill 2017-05-21
that wasn't very nice
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
Wasn't meant to be nice. If you like a lot of what Trumps doing in office currently or his plans you may as well go join the Republicans and the Alt right. Attacking journalist, attacking courts, attacking the EPA, cutting regulations, trying to open up public land for more privatization, promoting theocracy, race/religion based immigration policies, completely unqualified appointees, using the office to enrich himself and his family, I could go on... none of those things are anywhere close to progressive or even centrist.
n/a working_class_shill 2017-05-21
okay but I don't see how pinging someone's username to call them an idiot is doing literally anything besides being a child
then again internet activism is the only thing lazy plebs can do nowadays so I guess I'm not surprised
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
They're free to come here and defend what the like about what trump is doing in office, he's literally against everything Bernie campaigned on, so I'd love to hear it. It's /r/drama btw pinging and starting more drama is what we do sometimes here tbqh.
Lol. No need to project. I guess actually going to street protest/marches and doing volunteer work for multiple political campaigns of candidates including Bernie's campaign when I have free time and aren't caught up with other obligations is slacktivism now. TIL.
n/a working_class_shill 2017-05-21
I guess if you define pinging usernames to insult them is 'starting more drama' we can defend acting like children
Progress!
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
Well if they'd follow the ping and tell me what they like about Trump, I'd gladly start drama with them. Maybe you should read our sidebar.
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Well, butt-hurt establishment shill, while deep-sixing the TPP deserves honorable mention by far the thing I most like about Trump is that he threw a yuuuge monkey wrench into further solidifying the until now iron grip of the corrupt Democratic establishment on the only party with any hope of getting the country back on the track that establishment deserted a quarter century ago.
So now Bernie is flying high while the party establishment is lying low save when they attempt to catch a few rays of reflected popularity by attaching themselves to his appearances. His platform is still getting great exposure and support and as a result the American public is learning more about progressive positions than ever while really not appearing to give a damn that the party establishment is not happy with this.
Now that's progress of a sort we haven't seen since the '60s and certainly weren't seeing under any Democratic leadership since the '70s (which is why the party has been getting thrashed at all levels since Obama deliberately raised such grand expectations for 'change we can believe in' and 'an end to business as usual' and then dashed them nearly continuously during his 8 pathetic years in office).
If putting up with some significant temporary pain (as opposed to the creeping pain the party has been quietly visiting upon us that eventually leads to the same place) is what it takes to get decent representation again in government I'm all for it. Bernie can't support such tactics because of the environment in which he needs to operate to be effective, and people who still manage to find excuses for the party establishment despite what we've seen over the past year-plus may be completely lost causes, though given that they didn't seem to be overly bothered by the utter failure of the party establishment to mount any real opposition to the 2003 invasion of Iraq and turned a completely blind eye to the establishment's behind-the-scenes sabotaging of the Affordable Care Act - information here for those who just weren't paying attention - this may not be all that surprising: being a knee-jerk partisan is a lot more comfortable for many people than actually exercising their critical faculties (if indeed they have any).
How nice that you put on your cute little pink hat to protest/march and even do volunteer work for candidates (when you have free time, anyway). My own political activity began in 1968 when I first started protesting and risked serious jail time by refusing to be inducted at the height of the Vietnam War (I was a lot luckier than most: my draft board reclassified me as a conscientious objector and assigned me to alternative service as an orderly in a mental hospital), and while my activism was less intense until 2003 I supported Dean's candidacy with canvassing, 'phone banking, and donations and did all of those much more intensely for Bernie last year (plus some for the Berniecrats who supported him). And since I did take very seriously the failure of the Democratic establishment (save for a few vocal and honorable souls) to mount any serious opposition to the invasion of Iraq I haven't lifted a finger (or cast a vote) to support them since them, and sent the leadership letters shortly before they shoved their crapified version of the ACA down our throats that if they did not include a public option in it I'd be voting Republican against them in any national race where my vote might have a higher-than-normal probability of making a difference until they corrected that error (fortunately, I needed to make good on that promise only once until last November, since I far prefer voting Green).
If you weren't so keen on spewing incompetent drivel you might have noticed that a lot of us at Way of the Bern are similarly more concerned about evicting the crap leadership of the party so that the party can become useful once again than putting on pussy hats. So 'McFluff' seems like an appropriate username for you: you wouldn't recognize a serious progressive effort if it jumped up and bit off half your ass.
n/a ahbslldud 2017-05-21
Well, butt-hurt establishment shill, while deep-sixing the TPP deserves honorable mention by far the thing I most like about Trump is that he threw a yuuuge monkey wrench into further solidifying the until now iron grip of the corrupt Democratic establishment on the only party with any hope of getting the country back on the track that establishment deserted a quarter century ago.
So now Bernie is flying high while the party establishment is lying low save when they attempt to catch a few rays of reflected popularity by attaching themselves to his appearances. His platform is still getting great exposure and support and as a result the American public is learning more about progressive positions than ever while really not appearing to give a damn that the party establishment is not happy with this.
Now that's progress of a sort we haven't seen since the '60s and certainly weren't seeing under any Democratic leadership since the '70s (which is why the party has been getting thrashed at all levels since Obama deliberately raised such grand expectations for 'change we can believe in' and 'an end to business as usual' and then dashed them nearly continuously during his 8 pathetic years in office).
If putting up with some significant temporary pain (as opposed to the creeping pain the party has been quietly visiting upon us that eventually leads to the same place) is what it takes to get decent representation again in government I'm all for it. Bernie can't support such tactics because of the environment in which he needs to operate to be effective, and people who still manage to find excuses for the party establishment despite what we've seen over the past year-plus may be completely lost causes, though given that they didn't seem to be overly bothered by the utter failure of the party establishment to mount any real opposition to the 2003 invasion of Iraq and turned a completely blind eye to the establishment's behind-the-scenes sabotaging of the Affordable Care Act - information here for those who just weren't paying attention - this may not be all that surprising: being a knee-jerk partisan is a lot more comfortable for many people than actually exercising their critical faculties (if indeed they have any). How nice that you put on your cute little pink hat to protest/march and even do volunteer work for candidates (when you have free time, anyway). My own political activity began in 1968 when I first started protesting and risked serious jail time by refusing to be inducted at the height of the Vietnam War (I was a lot luckier than most: my draft board reclassified me as a conscientious objector and assigned me to alternative service as an orderly in a mental hospital), and while my activism was less intense until 2003 I supported Dean's candidacy with canvassing, 'phone banking, and donations and did all of those much more intensely for Bernie last year (plus some for the Berniecrats who supported him). And since I did take very seriously the failure of the Democratic establishment (save for a few vocal and honorable souls) to mount any serious opposition to the invasion of Iraq I haven't lifted a finger (or cast a vote) to support them since them, and sent the leadership letters shortly before they shoved their crapified version of the ACA down our throats that if they did not include a public option in it I'd be voting Republican against them in any national race where my vote might have a higher-than-normal probability of making a difference until they corrected that error (fortunately, I needed to make good on that promise only once until last November, since I far prefer voting Green).
If you weren't so keen on spewing incompetent drivel you might have noticed that a lot of us at Way of the Bern are similarly more concerned about evicting the crap leadership of the party so that the party can become useful once again than putting on pussy hats. So 'McFluff' seems like an appropriate username for you: you wouldn't recognize a serious progressive effort if it jumped up and bit off half your ass.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
That's a terrible argument for voting Republican
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Only if you're too dense to understand that force is the only thing the Democratic establishment understands, and that if we can't change them or kick them out we'll wind up in the same place the Republicans are taking us along with that establishment.
Otherwise, it makes perfect sense. But since it's far too uncomfortable for knee-jerk partisans to contemplate the establishment still has a pretty strong lock on their support even though that hasn't been sufficient to regain any lost ground against Republicans at any level of government since Obama won in 2008 and then turned out to be such a disappointment.
It's amusing how the establishment kept asserting so insistently last fall that they didn't need no stinkin' progressives and would make up any losses with newly attracted Republicans. Turns out they were wrong, but they're still acting as if they'd been proven right so we'll just have to keep beating their brains out until we prevail.
In contrast, I've held since 2004 that it wouldn't take many defecting progressives to tip the balance in a great many elections, and while it took a while for enough progressives to get sufficiently disgusted to defect I turn out to have been right.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
By voting Republican you'll just shift the Dems more to the right. You don't have to be a partisan to see that. Or American, for that matter. I'm neither
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Then you have more excuse for your political ignorance than a lot of people here have.
Republican wins are what the Democratic establishment uses as their excuse for moving to the right, regardless of whether the win is due to actual support for Republicans (rare in anything but clear 'red state'-style situations) or to Democratic voters just staying home due to increasing distaste for the corporatists the Democratic establishment insists upon foisting on us.
But I have no interest in trying to 'reform' that Democratic establishment because, especially after seeing them in such overt action last year, I don't believe that such reform is possible. Rather, I want to destroy them by kicking them out of office even if it takes voting Republican to do it (though I'd joyfully do so instead by defeating them with progressives in the corrupt Democratic nominating process where that was possible).
Consider that virtually the entire Democratic establishment backed Hillary (a household name for the past quarter century) in last year's Democratic primary contest yet an obscure self-proclaimed democratic socialist from a small state came close to winning the nomination. The Democratic grassroots responded remarkably to him despite the overt opposition of their party's establishment, and without that opposition far more would have supported him. Polling has consistently indicated that the majority of Americans support most of his policy positions. It's not 'the Dems', or the American public, or those nasty Republicans, or the Russians (gasp!) who are preventing our country from putting its house in order: it's the Democratic establishment which dances so well with its Republican counterpart in our political duopoly that we've been locked into this downward spiral since the neoliberals took it over, and the only obvious way out is to break that establishment and thereby break the logjam which it cooperates in creating.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
So you hate the Democrats for being too close to the republicans, and as punishment you vote Republican... How can you think that's a good solution. If you voted Green I could understand, but this is just idiocy.
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
As I said, your ignorance about our politics is more understandable than that of many here. I voted for Nader in 2004 and 2008 and for Stein in 2012 because (as I described previously) my presidential vote was pretty clearly not going to affect the outcome in my state (hence not in the country either), but did not kid myself that this was anything more than symbolic because here in the U.S. the Green party is monumentally ineffective even though their hearts are in the right place (and the fact that they still did poorly last November despite running against two utterly awful major-party candidates demonstrates the depth of their ineptitude and/or the effectiveness of the major parties in having completely marginalized their influence).
I don't "hate the Democrats for being too close to the Republicans", I hate the Democratic establishment for surreptitiously cooperating with the Republican establishment in sustaining our transition to an oligarchical and increasingly fascist nation. And I don't want to 'punish' that establishment, I want to destroy it because it is the primary obstacle to reversing that trend.
If you've got a better suggestion I'll happily listen to it. But don't kid yourself that the Democratic establishment is going to solve it in any way: they had their chance with control of the presidency and substantial majorities in both Houses of Congress in 2009 - 2011 and all we got out of it was Republican-inspired 'health-care reform', continuation and in some cases accentuation of Bush's policies of aggression and encroachment on civil liberties, the offer of a 'grand bargain' that included significant destruction of our social safety net to Republicans which, thankfully, they rejected, and a lot of silver-tongued rhetoric to make us feel better.
You'll really do a lot better wrapping your mind around all this if you begin by entertaining the possibility that a great deal of what you think you know is simply not true. That's very difficult for knee-jerk party members (of any party) to do here in the U.S., but as a foreigner you might be less inflexible.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
You still haven't explained how voting for the republicans is supposed to make a difference. So you destroy the Democrats and the gop now rules everything. Congratulations?
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
You seem have real difficulty differentiating between 'the Democrats' and 'the Democratic establishment' despite my consistent distinctions between the two. Destroying the Democratic establishment does not entail destroying the Democratic party let alone the grassroots which adhere to it: it simply entails kicking them out of office to destroy their ability to use those offices to obtain support from the special interests which own them, making it far more possible to replace them first as candidates and then as office-holders with people worthy of support.
We've tried doing that piece-meal for a generation now and found that the establishment quickly co-opts any progressive Democrat whom we manage to sneak into national office: the establishment uses them in a 'rotating villains' strategy which makes sure they have their support when they actually need it but leaves them free to look good to their progressive supporters the rest of the time (while other progressives get their turn at playing the villains).
So we need to break the back of the establishment much more thoroughly to make any headway. It may be possible to elevate enough real progressives at once to buck the establishment effectively before it has been destroyed, in which case possibilities for some kind of negotiated settlement may open up, but I'm not optimistic about that.
As for the GOP, right now it pretty much already rules everything and the country doesn't seem to like that very much. So believing that if we can reform the Democratic party then it will get the support it needs to win does not seem to me to be represent much of a stretch of the imagination.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
Alright, well good luck. I'm sure voting for the republicans will be a great strategy. What could go wrong?
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Pretty much nothing more than already has. Sorry to have found you to be ineducable, but that's a common affliction - especially when it comes to politics - so you can find solace in having a great deal of company.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
I hope one day you'll realize you're the textbook definition of a useful idiot
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Hey, shithead: I came to these conclusions on my own based on my own observations of Democratic establishment corruption. LONG before the past political season. And after 36 years as a registered Democrat (it was 48 years before I reregistered as an independent in disgust last September) Just because you've got your eyes far too tightly shut to see any of it yourself is no basis for claiming that people with their eyes open are experiencing delusions.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
You're presumably against Republican policies, but you're keeping them in power with your vote. No matter how you rationalize it, that makes you a useful idiot
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
You really do seem to be not only ineducable but completely calcified in your thinking (i.e., nothing new gets in, and nothing useful comes out). If I were more charitable I'd pity you, but since you're an active impediment to progress I really don't have the time to - I rather pity those who your intransigence condemns to pain and suffering.
Here I've been bemoaning the decline in the quality of U.S. education for decades and assuming that the rest of the world was doing better. Oh, well - so much for that comforting illusion.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
Guy who votes Republican
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
You just can't wrap what passes for your brain around strategic voting, can you. Hint: the strategy is one which trades off temporary pain for eventual gain because no other option (and you certainly didn't come up with an alternative, even an idiotic one, when invited to do so) offers that eventual gain.
The main difficulty in writing a bot with more intelligence than you've been demonstrating would be not in its logic routines but in its ability to mimic a sentient being in a discussion.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
"you just don't get it, cutting off my nose to spite my face is a tried and true method"
OK buddy, you're a genius
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Complex thinking is clearly not your forte. I guess you're a lot more comfortable that way, but trying to score childish points in an effort to make up for that deficit really isn't particularly effective but if anything the opposite.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
Thanks for putting the largest army on the planet in the hands of a moronic narcissistic reality TV star because your preferred Democrat didn't get enough votes in the primaries.
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Are you actually autistic? You just can't get beyond "Republicans BAD!!!" to understand that sometimes the only way to get to making things better (since you didn't see fit to offer up any alternative) is to tolerate a bit of BAD!!! on the way there.
(Not, of course, that Hillary was necessarily better: she was dead-set on stirring up shit with Russia, which is close to as BAD!!! as things get given their nuclear capabilities.)
You also appear to be functionally illiterate, as I did make it clear that I started voting Republican in the circumstances which obtained last November a full 7 years ago, so it really couldn't have had anything to do with last year's primaries.
Perhaps you really are a bot programmed to regurgitate establishment talking points regardless of their applicability. That would explain a lot.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
So you've been voting Republican for 7 years. Seems to have worked out splendidly. They now control all three branches of government. Congratulations! You've been an agent of change
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
It's a work in progress, and so far progress, though slow, is satisfactory - with a very encouraging up-tick last November resulting in great continuing exposure for Bernie's positions (especially when compared to the basement closet he'd have been relegated to had Hillary won) and serious attention being paid by the American public for the first time since Obama's inspiring campaign 9 years ago (you know: the campaign which left supporters so disillusioned by his abysmal failure even to try to follow through on his great rhetoric that the Republicans took control in the very next election and have been increasing it ever since).
The bottom line is that some progressives and a lot of just common people get fed up waiting for the rest of the Democratic party to decide that their party establishment was no longer an acceptable 'lesser evil' and demand real change. The rest of the Democrats (like you, but actual voters) responded with outrage at having their divine right to be the ones to decide exactly when and how to move usurped.
Well, tough shit: you snooze, you lose. Change is starting and the one sure thing is that we're not going back to the status quo ante. So hop on the train or get left behind.
(And I had to vote Republican only once before last November, so the personal cost was really minimal. Couldn't be happier, given the alternative.)
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
If you call this progress, I'd hate to see what you consider a disaster
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
What you hate is really of no interest to me, given my assessment of your competence.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
Yeah yeah I'm a dumb poopiehead. When that's all you have to say it says more about yourself
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
No: it simply says that I'm intolerant of persistent incompetents who have to depend upon canned rebuttals rather than actual debate.
But yes, you are a dumb poopiehead too: you appear to be more versatile in that respect than you seem to be in most others.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
Seriously though, I understand that the US electoral system is a tragic disaster and that you would get sick of it after decades of this nonsense. I know it's not your fault and I would probably get really frustrated about it too. I'm glad I live in a democracy with proportional representation where my membership of a small green party actually makes a tangible difference. Hopefully things change fundamentally in the US before things fall apart. Until then, I think it's a serious mistake to reward a sexist, racist, destructive party of legit sociopaths led by one of the most incompetent leaders the world has ever seen for the failings of their only serious, albeit seriously flawed and corrupt opposition, but I can see that I'm not going to change your mind on that. I wish you would just consider it instead of calling me an idiot about it.
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
I had wondered whether you might be blinded by having access to a system which allowed better solutions than ours does. But you still don't understand why the solution I'm pursuing makes sense in the system we've got.
It's not a matter of frustration but of simple reality. We've only got two options to work with, neither is remotely acceptable, and both cooperate to ensure that no other option can arise (the only exception in living memory having been Ross Perot's on-again/off-again campaign 25 years ago, a self-funded fluke in an unusually up-for-grabs situation). But the two options we have are quite different - not in their mutual support of an oppressive and dangerous oligarchy (dangerous to you as well, and that bothers me more than the danger to us because we're ultimately responsible for the government we've got while you don't get any say in it but can still suffer serious consequences if we don't fix it), but in what actions we have available to us to get out of the mess we're in.
Option 1, which you advocate, is to support the short-term 'lesser evil'. Prior to the rise of the Democratic Leadership Conference/Third Way/New Democrat style of neoliberalism (and/or prior to the demise of the Soviet Union as a counter-weight to the U.S., as the two are not entirely unrelated) that option did not work all that badly for us and for (much of) the rest of the world, but after the 'Reagan Revolution' that began the systematic destruction of the reforms put in place during the Roosevelt 'New Deal' Option 1 went increasingly off the rails and brought us to where we are today.
Option 2, which is what the country marginally voted for last November out of desperation because it had become clear that Option 1 was taking us somewhere completely unacceptable (albeit in a superficially 'kinder, gentler' way than Option 2 promised to), is clearly a short-term disaster but offers the possibility of shaking up the system enough to allow Option 1 to be reformed (reforming Option 2 was never a possibility and destroying it would have accomplished nothing, because Option 1 was taking us in the same direction while at the same time preventing any Option 3 from developing on its left).
So for those of us on the left who failed to support Option 1 last year or even voted for Option 2 it was never a desire to 'reward' Option 2 but a Hail Mary! effort to destabilize Option 1 sufficiently to reform it. We've seen all too clearly what choosing Option 1 has led to for the past 25 years and know where that route leads. We saw last year (those us who hadn't seen it earlier) exactly how strongly entrenched and implacable the leadership of Option 1 was. And those of us who had glimpsed enough of that earlier had also seen just how reluctant the rest of the public was to recognize the situation (because recognizing that your government is your enemy is extremely uncomfortable for anyone who is able to tolerate the existing level of oppression) and understood that last year represented an unusual opportunity to shake up the situation with something short of a potentially violent revolution of a sort that our country has never experienced - not even at its inception and not during our 'Civil War', which was something quite different - but which observation of those which have appears to be something we should try to avoid if at all possible.
So when you say that you wish I would just consider the situation my response is that I've been considering this specific situation very seriously indeed for the past 14 years and the more general situation with increasing concern for the past 36 (i.e., since the Reagan Revolution turned our country hard to the right and made me wonder just what the hell was going on). And when you parrot establishment talking-points and dismiss us as 'frustrated by' and 'sick of' the situation it makes it pretty clear that you simply don't have a clue what we're facing, though your last comment suggests that your intentions may be better and your mind less closed than seemed to be the case earlier.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
Well this sub usually doesn't really permit serious conversation, so that's why I didn't bother getting into an actual discussion. I appreciate the detailed explanation, but I still do not agree. I'm not American, but I'm pretty familiar with the political situation, and I think we're both on the same side when it comes to the diagnosis - sick and frustrated are surely euphemisms.
However, while you might not see your vote as a reward, that's exactly how it is counted. Afaik you're still not allowed to staple an essay explaining your motivations to the ballot, so your gop vote gets counted exactly the same as all the others.
It seems like your strategy is accelerationism, which is not the obvious or logical choice you put it as. Even Noam Chomsky, who shares many of the same concerns about neoliberalism and everything else you just wrote advocated voting blue wherever your vote makes a difference. Accelerationism is a dangerous gamble which isn't likely to pay off in my estimation.
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
You still clearly don't get it. It certainly matters that my vote gets counted but I don't give a shit how it is perceived because it's being used as a weapon, not a symbol.
And a strategy of using one's vote as a weapon against a party establishment which is implacably getting in the way is not at all the same thing as accelerationism even though some immediate consequences may be similar.
Chomsky is almost always right on the issues but is nowhere nearly as dependable when it comes to strategy (which is a nearly inevitable consequence of being an ideologue, valuable though he may be in that role).
I will ask you once again, what's your proposed alternative that will get us somewhere that we actually want to go rather than just slightly reduce the speed with which we're going in the wrong direction?
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
Why increase the speed of going in the wrong direction instead of decrease if not for accelerationist purposes? Or do you really believe that the Democrats are worse and more corrupt than the Republicans? Because one could make the inverse argument - to vote Democrat to ensure the reform of the GOP. If your 'weapon' is casting a vote for an ultra conservative party, it doesn't seem to be a very effective weapon.
There is no perfect solution, but mounting a better primary challenge to corrupt Dems is surely a start? Bernie got very close this time, and while your might believe it was all rigged, it was definitely a wake-up call. Next time you might succeed. Contest local elections, get elected yourself, wage a propaganda war to convince that large proportion of Americans who are more susceptible to racist demagogues that there are better solutions - class awareness can be enacted in many ways.
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Keep re-reading my previous reply until you understand it.
Keep re-reading my earlier replies until you understand them.
See above.
And your better one is...?
Well, at least that's (finally) a concrete suggestion.
Yes, it was - but, unfortunately, at least as much for the Democratic establishment as it was for the public, and they are quickly moving to answer it with more of the same.
Not if they have anything to say about it, and as we saw last year once they actually woke up to the challenge they had a great deal to say (and do) about it.
That effort is already under way, but it's a parallel one rather than a substitute because that route takes a long time to work its way upward if it can do so at all given the resistance from above - which why that resistance must be weakened top-down.
You're back to parroting establishment talking-points again.
Indeed it can, and the combination of Bernie's campaign and Hillary's defeat last year are two of the best that we've found in a long time.
n/a ahbslldud 2017-05-21
mfw it thinks we're internet activists
n/a GladysCravesRitz 2017-05-21
They aren't nice. They are pretending to be nice and see if that works any better. Still the same shills.
n/a ahbslldud 2017-05-21
he is tho
n/a working_class_shill 2017-05-21
I'm not those people, but that sub has always been open for discussions. Anyone is welcome to go argue their opinion their and anyone is welcome to refute it.
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
Then why isn't just called political discussion or something, it pretty obviously has grown to have nothing to do with Bern, politicians similar to him, or any of the other things I listed in my other comment.
n/a working_class_shill 2017-05-21
only admins can change the name of a subreddit
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
I'm aware the mods don't hold that power but why name it after something it's obviously not and never seemed to intend to be.
n/a SpudDK 2017-05-21
You are making a big assumption there.
Bernie is not your personal Jesus.
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Because what seems obvious to you is purely subjective, idiot.
n/a HeresCyonnah 2017-05-21
But it is obvious, dumb dumb.
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
I guess simpletons would think so. Some people prefer to think for themselves rather than regurgitate what they're told by people who, admittedly, are probably smarter than they are even though more likely to be pursuing an agenda rather than the truth.
n/a HeresCyonnah 2017-05-21
Damn son, you've got quite the inferiority complex.
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Not at all: I just don't suffer fools gladly.
n/a HeresCyonnah 2017-05-21
You don't have to hide it here, it's a safe space. Just don't be a mayo.
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
I haven't needed a safe space since likely long before your parents met each other, junior.
n/a StingAuer 2017-05-21
teenager confirmed
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Ah, denial is such a comfort for shitheads who can't deal with reality. Warms the heart, it does.
n/a HeresCyonnah 2017-05-21
It's ok lil' guy, it's safe to open up here.
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
I've been open already: you apparently just don't like what you've heard.
Tough shit.
n/a HeresCyonnah 2017-05-21
Don't worry bud, you can open up to us.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
I think that's what it was from the beginning. Either they're dumb as rocks and they don't realize they're being manipulatd by T_D, or they're all just Trumpshills pretending together
n/a working_class_shill 2017-05-21
Where do you and /u/Mcfluffthecrimecat think we should be commenting on reddit instead?
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
/r/cumtown
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
Any of the other progressive or Bernie sub? r/OurPresident /r/SandersForPresident /r/Progressive ? There's more out there but Wayofthebern has gone way way downhill. Here's a question since Wayofthebern seems to want to "open a dialogue" with trump supporters have you seen what non heavy moderated trump supporters say when they don't have a self imposed filter? Where do you think your going to get talking to people who refer to "non whites" as "kikes, niggers, spiks, race traitors, cucks, the list goes on" and promote things like "physical removal" aka genocide/concentration camps? We've got plenty of links if you need proof.
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Or you could just be full of shit (my money's on that explanation, for what it's worth).
n/a SpudDK 2017-05-21
Feel better?
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
Nothinf to feel bad about, maybe you should though since your sub seems to have abandoning anything meaningful. Are you going to answer my question?
n/a SpudDK 2017-05-21
No. I'm not. Feel free to pose it to the community.
n/a working_class_shill 2017-05-21
they'd rather just try to start drama here because their sunday is boring
n/a SpudDK 2017-05-21
B players thinking I would validate hot bullshit too.
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
I posed the question you and the other top mods, so I'm guessing you don't have an answer or see attacking the DNC (which deserves some critism) as a priority above promoting the actual "Wayofthebern" (I.e. The things I listed above which are things Bernie actual publicly says he supports). How about a different question, are you happy with the current state of the sub?
n/a SpudDK 2017-05-21
You guessed entirely wrong.
Again, feel free to address the community. It's right there.
As to your new question? Asked and answered. You will find that information, along with potential answers to your earlier attempt on /r/WayOfTheBern
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
Is your non substance circle jerky rally rambling in that sticky over there supposed to be an actual answer to how you feel the subs going? Still not seeing any answers to my other questions on your front page or on your side bar, even though with that sidebar you may as well have named the sub political discussion, the only thing related to actual progressivism is a few links to other places.
n/a SpudDK 2017-05-21
Seek and 'ye shall find. I really don't have a need to spoonfeed you, nor validate your loaded questions.
This is on you. Get after it, or not. Don't care either way myself.
Cheers!
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
Lol. "Loaded questions", my questions were pretty simple. Answering or directly pointing to the answers to the questions I pointing to where I can find the answers isn't spoonfeeding, pointing to a sub and saying find it is like throwing a stack of papers all over the table and saying hey idk it's somewhere in there maybe. But whatever, enjoy your Anti progressive, anti bern, Seth rich memeing sub. Your doing more to hurt us people who actually want to move some to the left than helping.
n/a SpudDK 2017-05-21
You will have to make that case, and you will have to do it at WotB.
Or, step aside.
Don't care which.
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
So you need your little army to defend your positions, or elaborate on them or you just hold no real ones? You should be able to defend your stances without your subscribers to back up your personal views.
😂 Please, with your non answers you should step down as a mod your a horrible representative for Wotb.
n/a SpudDK 2017-05-21
Hugs and kisses :D
You seem to think you have some standing or basis for entitlement here. You don't, and you got the consideration you gave too.
Should you play this differently in the future, you may find you prefer that possible outcome.
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
The only person responding like they have some kind of entitlement is you with your condescending attitude. If you want to alienate people who supposedly have similar views as you by not even attempting to answer basic questions or guide them to where they can find them, guess who you sound like? Primaries Hillary.
n/a SpudDK 2017-05-21
Those loaded questions were not condescending?
If your intent were entirely benign and your concern sincere, we would be having a different discussion.
Like I said, should you play it differently in the future, it will likely go differently.
I've no beef with you. I'm also not going to validate a lot of crap by treating crap wrapped in questions as sincere either.
You've got lots of options here. If you really want that conversation, you can get it. It's on you to do that however.
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
They weren't loaded to begin with just because you didn't like your sub being critized doesn't mean the questions are automatically loaded 🙄. I asked YOU for your personal opinion, you didn't want to give it and then continue to respond combatively and condescendingly, which would be fine in /r/drama tbh but I was actually looking for your opinion and still with not a even attempt to answer. All that effort you could have answered 5 to 6 questions but whatever, there's no need for you to respond to me here anymore. Have a nice day.
n/a SpudDK 2017-05-21
My personal opinion is public. There is no need to supply more. You've asked nothing to warrant doing that.
The other question was mixed with a number of negative statements.
Ahem, loaded.
Remember, you control your side of the conversation, I control mine.
There is no need to dictate a response or not. See how that works?
n/a ahbslldud 2017-05-21
You should really consider the virtues of suicide.
n/a SpudDK 2017-05-21
Let me contemplate it ..........................hmmm........................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm...............indeed........................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm............... ...........................hmmm........................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm...............indeed........................hmmm.......................................hmmm.....................hmmm........................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm...............indeed........................hmmm.......................................hmmm............................................................hmmm............... ...........................hmmm........................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm...............indeed........................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm............... ...........hmmm........................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm...............indeed........................hmmm.......................................hmmm...........................................hmmm........................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm...............indeed........................hmmm.......................................hmmm...........................................hmmm........................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm...............indeed........................hmmm.......................................hmmm...........................................hmmm........................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm...............indeed........................hmmm.......................................hmmm...........................................hmmm........................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm...............indeed........................hmmm.......................................hmmm...........................................hmmm........................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm...............indeed........................hmmm.......................................hmmm...........................................hmmm........................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm.......................................hmmm...............indeed........................hmmm.......................................hmmm.................................ahi!
Nope. Not a serious consideration at this time.
:D
n/a ahbslldud 2017-05-21
Consider it harder.
Alternatively post bussy
n/a SpudDK 2017-05-21
No thanks. I appreciate the encouragement though. I'm sure you have helped many who need it.
n/a ahbslldud 2017-05-21
does she know
hmmmm
n/a McFluffTheCrimeCat 2017-05-21
Oh and btw I took your advice and tried posing my questions to your sub with full disclosure since I figured they'd check my post history and the only response so far is downvotes for even asking and telling me "don't let the door hit me on the way out" so yeah... very welcoming for discussion.
n/a TheSonofLiberty 2017-05-21
This isn't my experience with that subreddit at all, lol, and I've been in the democratic party for about 20 years now ...
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
The shills are out in full force, I see
n/a TheSonofLiberty 2017-05-21
yup
n/a BillToddToo 2017-05-21
Well, yuh, but you could decrease their number by one by butting out.
n/a LuigiVargasLlosa 2017-05-21
no, u
n/a respaaaaaj 2017-05-21
lamo bernie bots buying into the seth rich memes. Top fucking kek
n/a EvanHarper 2017-05-21
i mean they spent the entire general election cycle buying into right wing / russian / fake news stories spinning mundane HRC and Podesta emails into epic scandals, this is nothing new
n/a forlackofabetterword 2017-05-21
The whole Seth Rich thing is the new pizzagate. The only actual source behind it, a man formerly famous for claiming that lesbian gangs roamed the country turning children gay, has retracted his comments. The family has pleaded with people to stop defaming their son's name. Instead, Trumpers (and now Berniecrats?) are cyber stalking his reddit accounts in order and compiling a list of his likes and interests, in the hopes that this will somehow lead them to actual evidence for their case.
n/a grungebot5000 2017-05-21
it's the even older pizzagate. it came back because someone decided "shit, we haven't completely exhausted this one yet"
n/a forlackofabetterword 2017-05-21
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/16/media/seth-rich-family-response-claims-of-wikileaks-contact/
"On Monday night, Rod Wheeler, a private investigator and Fox News contributor, put things in motion during an interview with WTTG-TV, a Fox affiliate in Washington... But Tuesday afternoon, Wheeler told CNN he had no evidence to suggest Rich had contacted Wikileaks before his death."
It was a thing right when Rich was murdered, but this recent fake story was what put it back in the limelight again.
n/a FTFallen 2017-05-21
Wait, so CNN is trying to bury Wheeler for making a claim without presenting any evidence?
Meanwhile, CNN, WaPo, and the NYT have been printing every water cooler rumor in Washington as verified gospel for the last few weeks and calling it journalism.
That's (Seth) Rich.
n/a forlackofabetterword 2017-05-21
Not having a source and having an anonymous sourc le are very different thing. Usually the anonymous sources are either high placed intelligence officers or staffers for Trump himself who are leaking with the explicit goal of influencing the media narrative. And when someone wants something leaked, they'll always find at lease one media outfit that will cover them.
I mean, feel free to not listen to stories that have anonymous sources, sure, but most of the more controversial claims we're confirmed by Trump on Twitter within the day.
n/a ProgressiveFragility 2017-05-21
an anonymous source told me it's the same thing
n/a ahbslldud 2017-05-21
I certainly hope so. Post gang meetup address thx
n/a SocialJusticeYamcha 2017-05-21
Said by a The_Donald user in WayOfTheBern lol
n/a TheSonofLiberty 2017-05-21
which user?
n/a CaLiKiNG805 2017-05-21
Seth "Unironically used the Navy Seal meme on Reddit 'therefore is a valor stealer'" Rich
n/a ProgressiveFragility 2017-05-21
20 surveillance cameras along Seth Rich's path home, no recording.