u/arunnair87 Jesus Christ you can't be this stupid, have you seen a wolf eat fucking grass, how about a coyote. Of course not, please for God sake give your dog to someone who's sane and Keep Youtself Safe
Yo, wolves actually do eat grass. They ingest it when they kill a grass eating animal and eat it's digestive tract, and do rely on some nutrients (as well as the fiber) found in it. They also sometimes just chew on grass blades if they haven't gotten enough from a kill recently. Still though, they are primarily herbivores.
And things like cattle, buffalo, and other grazers occasionally eat insects, small rodents or birds, and other things down in the grass. They are still primarily herbivores, though.
I see your overall point, that they are mostly carnivores, but wolves and coyotes actually do consume a small amount of plant matter, mostly grass.
How do vegans justify nature then, it's animal suffering and cruelty on a grand scale. A bolt gun to a cows head or slitting a sleeping chickens neck is a great mercy compared to how most of their counterparts in nature die. The only practical solution if you care about alleviating animal suffering is to completely destroy or domesticate all of them and humans' carnivorism is the greatest contributor to that cause. If you actually cared about animal suffering instead of just posing as if you do you would eat meat.
We don't "justify" nature. Nature is pretty harsh for a lot of animals and we get that.
A bolt gun to a cows head or slitting a stunned chickens neck is a great mercy compared to how most of their counterparts in nature die.
Sure, but its' not like we are taking a chicken out from the wild then killing it. We are breeding them for slaughter.
wild animal suffering is a real issue. But its very hard to fix, for obvious reasons. You know what is easy to fix? Human farming of animals, because we can just stop doing it
Well you’re vegan, so you don’t understand what good food tastes like, you needed to be reminded because you think that we could just stop farming delicious food like that.
Human farming of animals destroys nature which is where the vast majority of animal suffering is happening. If we stopped eating meat then our destruction of habitats would slow immensely. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Killing enemies in a war is regrettable but letting them kill you is much worse. In this case slaughter is regrettable but the near perpetual suffering of most wild species is much worse.
"Blood samples were collected at weeks 0, 3, 8 and 16, and veterinary health checks were conducted at weeks 0, 8 and 16. Haematology results for all dogs, irrespective of diet, were within normal range throughout the study and the consulting veterinarian assessed all dogs to be in excellent physical condition"
Linda P. Case, a dog trainer, canine nutritionist, and science writer who specializes in topics about canine nutrition (with degrees on animal sciences and nutrition from Cornell and The University of Cornell) states "When we look at the evidence, we see that both nutritionally and taxonomically, the dog is best classified as an omnivore." As far as her opinion on this discussion, she also disagrees with you and says "so dogs have a requirement for animal-based ingredients in their diets? No, they do not" as well as "the domestic dog is... capable of consuming and obtaining nutrition from a wide variety of food types".
As far as your body of evidence is concerned, there is admittedly an issue of lack of large amounts of work done in the area. However work done in the topic invariably points towards the fact that a plant based diet is perfectly healthy for dogs. You have the study I linked, as well as the comments from Case which I mentioned earlier. Beyond that there is Dr. Jennifer Coates, Senior Researcher at Feinstein International Center at Tufts University, who says "It is true that dogs belong to the order Carnivora, but they are actually omnivores. The canine body has the ability to transform certain amino acids, the building blocks or protein, into others, meaning dogs can get all the amino acids they need without eating meat" and "dogs can eat a vegetarian diet and thrive". Simply googling the question reports many more educated professionals agreeing with Coates and Case. As far as studies are concerned, you can look up many others, but Vegetarian Versus Meat Based Diets for Companion Animals in WDPI, by Andrew Knight and Madelaine Leitsberger is an example of a metareview of four separate studies which ends in the conclusion that dogs can most likely entertain vegan diets. It states "Dogs may thrive on vegetarian diets... [if they are] nutritionally complete and reasonably balanced."
Linda P. Case, a dog trainer, canine nutritionist, and science writer who specializes in topics about canine nutrition (with degrees on animal sciences and nutrition from Cornell and The University of Cornell) states "When we look at the evidence, we see that both nutritionally and taxonomically, the dog is best classified as an omnivore." As far as her opinion on this discussion, she also disagrees with you and says "so dogs have a requirement for animal-based ingredients in their diets? No, they do not" as well as "the domestic dog is... capable of consuming and obtaining nutrition from a wide variety of food types".
As far as your body of evidence is concerned, there is admittedly an issue of lack of large amounts of work done in the area. However work done in the topic invariably points towards the fact that a plant based diet is perfectly healthy for dogs. You have the study I linked, as well as the comments from Case which I mentioned earlier. Beyond that there is Dr. Jennifer Coates, Senior Researcher at Feinstein International Center at Tufts University, who says "It is true that dogs belong to the order Carnivora, but they are actually omnivores. The canine body has the ability to transform certain amino acids, the building blocks or protein, into others, meaning dogs can get all the amino acids they need without eating meat" and "dogs can eat a vegetarian diet and thrive". Simply googling the question reports many more educated professionals agreeing with Coates and Case. As far as studies are concerned, you can look up many others, but Vegetarian Versus Meat Based Diets for Companion Animals in WDPI, by Andrew Knight and Madelaine Leitsberger is an example of a metareview of four separate studies which ends in the conclusion that dogs can most likely entertain vegan diets. It states "Dogs may thrive on vegetarian diets... [if they are] nutritionally complete and reasonably balanced."
But, like, what's the point of that in the larger picture? Yeah, with some effort you can give your carnivore pet a less than miserable existence using vitamin supplements and careful diet, but why?
What's the end game? Teaching lions and wolves to eat grass? Exterminating all carnivores who can't be helped?
How does your brave new future look like globally? Because it's weird to go for much effort to implement some vision locally if you don't have an idea of how it should work if everyone does that and everything goes along with that.
Most dogs already eat brown pellets out of a bag, I'm sure they can't tell a huge different between processed brown pellets. They're scavengers, it's not like they have an incredibly refined pallet. Besides that, if the entirety of somebodies dogs happiness relies on mealtime, there are other issues. As for your other point, I'm not here to discuss broader animal and mora philosophy, just here to counter the idiots claiming the only healthy diet for a dog is 6 cows per day.
As for your other point, I'm not here to discuss broader animal and mora philosophy, just here to counter the idiots claiming the only healthy diet for a dog is 6 cows per day.
I don't think many people claim that it's literally impossible to feed a dog, or even a cat, in a vegan way, using them pellets with artificially produced aminoacids and whatever, if you can find such a pellet producer.
The question is, why bother, exactly?
Like, this is an edge case that points out a huge problem in the whole vegan philosophy: if you are committing a lot of effort to make sure that feeding your dog doesn't involve killing a cow, what do you think about a wild wolf's diet? If you don't think that we should exterminate wolves or get them on the vegan pellet diet, then why do you bother re: dogs and cats?
If you want to talk about this, fine. You're engaging in classic Nirvana Fallacy, or appea to futility style arguments. It's like saying "why should I vote, it's not like my vote will matter" or "why should I not steal things, other people will always steal things". If you can't end all wars between humans, why even bother stopping killings? Clearly that makes no sense, the goal is simply to strive to create as much benefit as possible, not personally create a utopian reality. The vegan's goal is to save the lives of animals they would have otherwise do harmed. They don't eat burgers for a year to prevent that one cow from being harmed. They don't go vegan as an attempt to end all suffering, caused by any being, everywhere, forever.
No, it's not a nirvana fallacy. There's a direct, natural category that encompasses wolves, dogs, tigers, and cats. If you're OK with wild cats eating birds, then you should be OK with domestic cats eating cows, because it's natural for them while you don't eat cows yourself.
If you're not OK with domestic cats eating cows then an explanation is in order for your plans re: wild cats. "Oh I just want to reduce animal suffering a little here" doesn't fly in my opinion, because, I'm not sure how to explain it, the whole and entire thrust of "reducing animal suffering" is nullified if you flat out refuse to consider wild animals which outnumber domestic cats and dogs.
The idea is to reduce animal suffering that oneself causes. You don't use your purchasing power to purchase your dog meat because that would create increased demand on meat, resulting in increased production, resulting in more harmed cows. You do this because it is something you can do with absolutely minimal discomfort to yourself. What you're saying is like "What kind of idiot would decide not to steal from their neighbors, and then be perfectly ok with other people stealing across the country. Those assholes should either care about all stealing or no stealing at all. Either you become a thief yourself or you dedicate your entire life to stoping everyone from stealing anything ever." Reduce suffering that yourself would cause. You are faced with a decision, to harm an animal or not, and you choose not to. Another way to look at it is that there is incredibly minimal suffering in not eating meat, or not buying leather, or not buying your dog meat. It is not necessary for any of those animals to be harmed, so it doesn't need to happen. However, a lion or tiger or hawk has to eat meat to survive. It makes sense then that they have the right to eat other animals, it's the only way they can live. Eating animals is not the only way humans can live. So by avoiding it, we avoid unnecessary suffering. If I absolutely had to eat an animal to live, like an eagle, then I would. But as it stands, I don't, so I won't. Wild animals that have to kill to survive are different than modern humans which can easily survive without killing.
I understand that logic, what I'm having some trouble with is deciding to inflict some discomfort on your dog instead of yourself. I mean, if a wolf has the right to eat meat, then why not the dog?
there's no substantial ethical difference between harming dogs and farm animals
Uhh, yes of course there is. If we didn't consider there to be, they wouldn't be farm animals, they'd be pets. The entire concept of "farm animals" is built around treating them differently. The fact that most of us (no, you don't get to make prescriptive ethical statements for the rest of us; or at least, you can try, but we'll just laugh) consider it acceptable to kill farm animals for meat (n.b. a horse is not meaningfully a "farm animal", it's simply a sort of pet that's kept on farms), is a defining characteristic of the category.
If you want to argue that there isn't an ethical difference depending on the species, then that's a bit different. Like, I'd even be willing to spot you a couple Rhetoric Points for noting that rabbits are considered in either category depending on the culture.
Well fuck me, that's some grade A scientific proof right there. You can't dectermine whether completely overhauling a carnivore's diet doesn't affect his biochemistry if you don't do biochemical tests. A vet can't determine that with basic tests, you'll need lab tests for that, especially if you want to publish.
And the fact that they only reported red blood cell counts sounds very suspicious about it.
You're just spewing random sciency sounding terms to make a point. Dogs aren't carnivores. A hematology test is a biochemical test, and while they didn't report every aspect of the test, it wasn't directly related to the hypothesis so it was necessary. Whether or not it was related to the hypothesis, the information that a physical exam and complete bloodwork turned up no issues would indicate there is nothing wrong with the dogs. Conditions don't just magically develop, asymptomatically , without evidence in blood or upon physical examination. Theoretically something could have slipped through but there if all current scientific evidence, besides just this paper, indicates that it is perfectly healthy, you'll need to provide some proof that is isn't in order to refute that large body of evidence.
You're just spewing random sciency sounding terms to make a point. Dogs aren't carnivores.
Dogs are fucking carnivores, as are the wolves they descend from. They're pretty good at it too, and assume the role of apex predator in most of their habitat.
A hematology test is a biochemical test, and while they didn't report every aspect of the test, it wasn't directly related to the hypothesis so it was necessary.
That's true, but in that case, you can only conclude that feeding a dog plant-based diet will not affect his red blood cell count. That's nice and all, but it doesn't say much about the over-all health or other long-term effects. If you want to conclude anything about the over-all health of the dog, then you need to do better tests than "a vet said they look healthy". Platelet count won't save a dog when his kidneys start to shutdown or his guts start to atrophy.
Theoretically something could have slipped through but there if all current scientific evidence, besides just this paper, indicates that it is perfectly healthy, you'll need to provide some proof that is isn't in order to refute that large body of evidence.
In fact, if you look up the first author of your publication, you'll see that they followed this paper up with another paper, which shows that plant-based supplements do affect the biochemistry of dogs.
And the original paper is by no definition a "large body of evidence". You know what's a large body of evidence? All the evidence that shows that dogs have evolved to be fantastic meat-eaters.
You're just stating, over and over, that dogs are carnivores, despite the fact you haven't backed this with any evidence whatsoever. Linda P. Case, a dog trainer, canine nutritionist, and science writer who specializes in topics about canine nutrition (with degrees on animal sciences and nutrition from Cornell and The University of Cornell) disagrees with your uneducated statement. She states "When we look at the evidence, we see that both nutritionally and taxonomically, the dog is best classified as an omnivore." As far as her opinion on this discussion, she also disagrees with you and says "so dogs have a requirement for animal-based ingredients in their diets? No, they do not" as well as "the domestic dog is... capable of consuming and obtaining nutrition from a wide variety of food types".
You also seem to be confused as to what exactly a blood test can check for, because it is much less than just saying "dog has healthy blood". Through a heamatological test, many things can be shown. Abnormalities would occur if the dog has improper nutrient or vitamin intake, if they have any sort of autoimmune disease, bacterial infection, or virus, if they have issues in any of their organs such as liver damage, over-hydration, bone disorders, or anemia. Coupled with physical examination, it is safe to assume that these particular dogs are going just fine. I'm not sure why you think a dogs, which are natural scavengers and have highly adaptive diets "guts will atrophy" from not eating meat.
That other study you linked isn't really related to whether or not dogs can or can't eat plant based diets, but rather whether or not long-chain n3 fatty acids can be replaced with short-chain n3 fatty acids present in particular foods. What they found is that, it is possible these things have different effects on different breeds of dog, and the dogs in the study weren't even negatively impacted, they just reacted differently from each other. It wouldn't even make sense that dogs would need that particular nutrient from animals because the only animal it is present in is some fish and fish oils, which wouldn't be present in large amounts for many dogs contemporarily and historically anyway.
As far as your body of evidence is concerned, there is admittedly an issue of lack of large amounts of work done in the area. However work done in the topic invariably points towards the fact that a plant based diet is perfectly healthy for dogs. You have the study I linked, as well as the comments from Case which I mentioned earlier. Beyond that there is Dr. Jennifer Coates, Senior Researcher at Feinstein International Center at Tufts University, who says "It is true that dogs belong to the order Carnivora, but they are actually omnivores. The canine body has the ability to transform certain amino acids, the building blocks or protein, into others, meaning dogs can get all the amino acids they need without eating meat" and "dogs can eat a vegetarian diet and thrive". Simply googling the question reports many more educated professionals agreeing with Coates and Case. As far as studies are concerned, you can look up many others, but Vegetarian Versus Meat Based Diets for Companion Animals in WDPI, by Andrew Knight and Madelaine Leitsberger is an example of a metareview of four separate studies which ends in the conclusion that dogs can most likely entertain vegan diets. It states "Dogs may thrive on vegetarian diets... [if they are] nutritionally complete and reasonably balanced."
But are you for real? You realize that wolves are practically at the top of the food chain in every ecological habitat, only ever challenged by the Siberian tiger. They do so because they fucking eat meat, which is the only way you can get on top of the food chain.
He's making good points about the meaningful applicability of the study and you're either blinded by what you want to be true or so poorly educated scientifically that you can't see it.
Since you're talking about "scientific proof" I'm gonna say it's at least partially the latter.
Linda P. Case, a dog trainer, canine nutritionist, and science writer who specializes in topics about canine nutrition (with degrees on animal sciences and nutrition from Cornell and The University of Cornell) disagrees with your uneducated statement. She states "When we look at the evidence, we see that both nutritionally and taxonomically, the dog is best classified as an omnivore." As far as her opinion on this discussion, she also disagrees with the vibe around here and says "so dogs have a requirement for animal-based ingredients in their diets? No, they do not" as well as "the domestic dog is... capable of consuming and obtaining nutrition from a wide variety of food types"
Linda P. Case, a dog trainer, canine nutritionist, and science writer who specializes in topics about canine nutrition (with degrees on animal sciences and nutrition from Cornell and The University of Cornell) states "When we look at the evidence, we see that both nutritionally and taxonomically, the dog is best classified as an omnivore." As far as her opinion on this discussion, she also disagrees with you and says "so dogs have a requirement for animal-based ingredients in their diets? No, they do not" as well as "the domestic dog is... capable of consuming and obtaining nutrition from a wide variety of food types".
As far as your body of evidence is concerned, there is admittedly an issue of lack of large amounts of work done in the area. However work done in the topic invariably points towards the fact that a plant based diet is perfectly healthy for dogs. You have the study I linked, as well as the comments from Case which I mentioned earlier. Beyond that there is Dr. Jennifer Coates, Senior Researcher at Feinstein International Center at Tufts University, who says "It is true that dogs belong to the order Carnivora, but they are actually omnivores. The canine body has the ability to transform certain amino acids, the building blocks or protein, into others, meaning dogs can get all the amino acids they need without eating meat" and "dogs can eat a vegetarian diet and thrive". Simply googling the question reports many more educated professionals agreeing with Coates and Case. As far as studies are concerned, you can look up many others, but Vegetarian Versus Meat Based Diets for Companion Animals in WDPI, by Andrew Knight and Madelaine Leitsberger is an example of a metareview of four separate studies which ends in the conclusion that dogs can most likely entertain vegan diets. It states "Dogs may thrive on vegetarian diets... [if they are] nutritionally complete and reasonably balanced."
dogs are generally considered omnivores. (For more discussion on that, this is a good source). The domestic dog has evolved alongside humans and adapted their diets accordingly.
Are you a teenager? It's very unhealthy to be a vegan during your teenage years; it has a high chance of turning you into a homosexual.
but i don't think its bad to be homesexual unlike you, so its all good
In relation to the dog's nutrition and/or nutrient requirements, the dog generally has the same essential nutrients as do other domestic animals including man. Therefore, it is entirely possible to formulate a diet or feed for a dog of primarily or exclusively vegetable origin feedstuffs that could satisfy all the known essential nutrient requirements for the dog as defined by the National Research Council.
Because the nutrient requirements of dogs are not as stringent as those of cats, there are a number of commercially available vegetarian and even vegan canine diets available, including some that have demonstrated nutritional adequacy through an AAFCO feeding trial
The science is by no means conclusive. I've yet to see any kind of long-term study done on the health of vegetarian/vegan diets for dogs. But the evidence we have at the moment seems to suggest that they can live healthy lives on vegan diets. And they are able to get all their nutritional needs from plant foods alone, however counter-intuitive that feels. Interestingly, many dogs are put on vegetarian diets when they have various food allergies.
With this evidence in front of me, I have a hard time justifying not at least trying to feed dogs a vegan diet. We know that feeding them vegan causes less overall harm to animals, and we have good reason to believe there is little risk to a dog's health when fed nutritionally complete vegan food.
That of course doesn't mean you can throw some beans and veggies in a bowl and call it a healthy diet. I'd generally advise against the bulk of the diet coming from homemade food, but instead find a commercially available food that meets AAFCO nutritional standards (V-Dog, Natural Balance Vegetarian). Be sure to transition your dog to a new food gradually. And of course, monitor your dog's health with regular vet visits, which you should be doing anyway.
Are you a sockpoppet of the other retard that spammed this thread? We already debunked that sled-dog article and i've got a hunch that this is just a copy paste response without much thought. And an increase in amylase doesn't make one a herbivore.
I don't blame you for that; typing costs a lot of energy and veganism doesn't offer much in terms of calories.
He's doing very well, he's walking and going outside again. If you didn't know what happened, you wouldn't be able to tell that he had an accident in the first place.
Awesome. Seeing him with his little sling lying in a cage was so sad, I used to have a cat who got a broken leg from an accident and he kinda looks like your cat which made me even more sad. I'm glad to hear he's fine now.
For reals. Cats need creatine. I used to work at a fancy pet food store in the SF bay area. The kind of place that sold vegetarian dog food. If a cat owner came in and asked about vegetarian cat food we'd tell them no way and that they're a horrible person.
thats why i said its tougher lol. Mainstream thinks its impossible, but it is possible albeit risky and tough. I don't think a vegan cat owner should feel a moral obligation to get vegan cat food, but there are cats that thrive on it.
Are you really sure you want to argue that it's unethical to feed an animal the sort of things it would naturally eat on its own, but perfectly fine to satisfy its biological needs by supplementing with synthesized amino acids that you think will do the job?
Like, you know how vitamin B12 supplementation is kinda inefficient and you end up having to take a lot more of it than would actually be in the diet you're replacing? You're not worried about that sort of issue, for example?
You think it's okay to experiment on your pet, in the name of preventing cruelty to farm animals?
I've owned a lot of cats over the years and they're all murdering little shits. You can love your cat, keep its food and water topped up but it'll still murder a baby bunny for shits and giggles. Saying cats can be vegan is like saying fish can live without water.
The dogs came back with perfectly normal bloodwork and physical examination. I fail to see how my use of the paper in this situation indicates that I "failed to read" the paper. The commenter I replied to says he's never seen an OK dog on a vegan diet, the paper says dogs did ok on a vegan diet.
I fail to see how my use of the paper in this situation indicates that I "failed to read" the paper.
In case you genuinely didn't understand: you were actually being told that the other person did not read the paper, and has no interest in reading the paper, and is instead just dismissing you out of hand.
Dogs and cats are not at all similar in dietary equipments. One is an obligate carnivore and one is an omnivore. Feeding a cat a vegan diet is literally going to kill it
This comprehensive analysis of a wide breadth of different studies, testimonial from the pet food industry, and consideration of nutritional sciences indicates that cats sustained on a vegetarian or vegan diet may be not only possible, but potentially beneficial.
1) they surveyed pet food companies to make up a fundamental basis for their claims, which is like asking /r/vegan for an unbiased view of eating meat.
2) they claim it requires regular urinary monitoring of cats due to the complete incompatibility with their regular diet, which is completely unfeasible and 100% will end in deaths and illnesses for cats.
How fucking sadistic are you to inflict that on a cat?
There is no way you could have read that entire paper in the past couple minutes, so your arguments are null. If you actually read the paper you would know that they did not survey pet food companies as a fundamental aspect of your discoveries, they analyzed the results of 4 main and a large number of supplementary experiment as the fundamental basis for their argument. The pet food companies were mostly used as auxiliary information to come to conclusions about consumer habits involving pet food, not as evidence for or against veganism in pets either way. If you believe their is bias within the paper, it would be significantly more productive if you provided exact selections that you believe to be untrue, as well as your own evidence as to why those selections are untrue. As to your second point, it is a useless unrelated attack. I'm not saying that every consumer wants to feed their cats non-meat options, I'm saying that it is simply possible for a majority of consumers.
Their synopsis provides exactly what is in the paper, I am paraphrasing their own words. They surveyed pet food companies, which is a completely garbage tool for making a study on suitability.
"Majority of pet owners"? That's the most bullshit statement yet. The majority of pet owners are not capable of daily urine analysis to make sure their unnatural and idiotic diet isn't killing their pet.
If you want to be a fucking disgusting vegan evangelical go for it, but leave cats and dogs out of it. They can't object to your categorical stupidity and if you kill a cat because of your ideology, you're a sadist.
Unsurprisingly it seems that you didn't read my previous comment. The pet food company surveys have little to do with their end conclusion's controversial claims. They surveyed pet food companies for things like "what are the typical procedures your company goes through to ensure nutritional completeness of your brands" not for things like "does your company support veganism in pets". I certainly hope that got through to you this time, because it was in the study I sent you, it was in my previous comment, and now it is in this one. If you're not going to bother to read the paper, at least read what I'm saying to you. The surveys of pet food companies did not contribute a significant impact upon any aspect of the vegan vs nonvegan discussion.
If you'd read the paper, you would also know that the urinary analysis is not daily, as you said it was (even though you didn't read the study). It is monthly, and can be done on a regular veterinary check up if you ask them. If they refuse to, or you don't take your dog or cat to the vet, the test can be done at home using a simple pH strip, the ones that are incredibly inexpensive and easy to use, that most people probably used in elementary science class. Truly no greater trials and tribulations present themselves to a pet owner, asking your vet to check your pets pee, or dipping a 6 cent strip of paper into their pee once a month.
And again you finish in absurd claims that I am a rambling idiot, while you insist upon the presence of nonexistent moronic statements within a paper you failed to even read.
u/thearlonian Jesus your a piece of shit aren't you /follow_the_protocol I had no idea wolves fed on vegetables.. Kill yourself if you can't feed your dog meat don't get a dog
I can offer an opinion here, but keep in mind that there is no generalised vegan perspective or opinion. The vegan movement is made up of thousands of individuals, all with their own views on various issues.
I personally am against the pet trade, because I feel like non-human animals are deserving of personhood, and as such I think they should be afforded the right to not be the property of another animal. I think the status of one animal owning another is not okay.
I can offer an opinion here, but keep in mind that there is no generalised vegan perspective or opinion. The vegan movement is made up of thousands of individuals, all with their own views on various issues,
I second that, took the words right out of my mouth. I personally don't think it's wrong to have pets as long as the owner (and I use this term because under the law pets are 'owned') realise that the animal has needs physical and emotional and will see that animal is kept well, I also believe that animals have personhood and someone responsible for one should be aware of that (hence why I disagree with the whole vegan cats thing). I don't think it is right to breed and sell animals for pets, I detest the whole idea of puppy mills and am against taking wild animals as pets also. I advocate adopting rescued animals from shelters as those are animals that actually need to be taken care of, and frankly don't think adopting a pet is any different than adopting a child.
So, dogs are generally considered omnivores. (For more discussion on that, this is a good source). The domestic dog has evolved alongside humans and adapted their diets accordingly. A few links of interest:
In relation to the dog's nutrition and/or nutrient requirements, the dog generally has the same essential nutrients as do other domestic animals including man. Therefore, it is entirely possible to formulate a diet or feed for a dog of primarily or exclusively vegetable origin feedstuffs that could satisfy all the known essential nutrient requirements for the dog as defined by the National Research Council.
Because the nutrient requirements of dogs are not as stringent as those of cats, there are a number of commercially available vegetarian and even vegan canine diets available, including some that have demonstrated nutritional adequacy through an AAFCO feeding trial
The science is by no means conclusive. I've yet to see any kind of long-term study done on the health of vegetarian/vegan diets for dogs. But the evidence we have at the moment seems to suggest that they can live healthy lives on vegan diets. And they are able to get all their nutritional needs from plant foods alone, however counter-intuitive that feels. Interestingly, many dogs are put on vegetarian diets when they have various food allergies.
With this evidence in front of me, I have a hard time justifying not at least trying to feed dogs a vegan diet. We know that feeding them vegan causes less overall harm to animals, and we have good reason to believe there is little risk to a dog's health when fed nutritionally complete vegan food.
That of course doesn't mean you can throw some beans and veggies in a bowl and call it a healthy diet. I'd generally advise against the bulk of the diet coming from homemade food, but instead find a commercially available food that meets AAFCO nutritional standards (V-Dog, Natural Balance Vegetarian). Be sure to transition your dog to a new food gradually. And of course, monitor your dog's health with regular vet visits, which you should be doing anyway.
I have a cat with severe allergies who can only eat raw ground meat and I've really struggled with my personal beliefs and his needs. Thankfully, I work with wildlife and we get animals donated to us that we humanely euthanize that I can feed to him, but I am still bothered by the fact that we take life for him.
/u/gibbonjiggle, if your kitteh's biological needs bother you so much why don't you just "humanely euthanize" him? You'd be killing a beloved pet, sure, but you'd save far more lives in the long run, you fool.
who am I to impose my beliefs on another living thing?
It's a fucking dog lmao, holy shit, they literally exist because we imposed our will on them.
Does he not house train his dog? I mean, what kind of human-supremacist scumbag expects his dog to conform to our societal standards of not peeing on the floor?
161 comments
n/a SnapshillBot 2017-07-09
Your condescending, contradictory bullshit isn't attractive to anyone except your frothing, basement-dwelling, virgin army.
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n/a boyoyoyoyong 2017-07-09
u/arunnair87 Jesus Christ you can't be this stupid, have you seen a wolf eat fucking grass, how about a coyote. Of course not, please for God sake give your dog to someone who's sane and Keep Youtself Safe
n/a lsord 2017-07-09
I seen a deer eat a bird once.
n/a boyoyoyoyong 2017-07-09
Sure calorie density is a thing, have you seen a tiger eat a bush
n/a lsord 2017-07-09
Yeah I have on /r/furry
n/a TrailerParkBride 2017-07-09
Got 'em
n/a komradekommunism 2017-07-09
Fucking degenerate.
n/a arunnair87 2017-07-09
Well I don't have a dog, if you read my original comment you would see that.
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19480731
n/a glmox 2017-07-09
why are you so upset about people objecting to torturing dogs?
n/a OccasionallyClueless 2017-07-09
I'm pretty sure dogs eat grass and other plants. Not really for food, but it's something they do.
n/a e-guy 2017-07-09
Yo, wolves actually do eat grass. They ingest it when they kill a grass eating animal and eat it's digestive tract, and do rely on some nutrients (as well as the fiber) found in it. They also sometimes just chew on grass blades if they haven't gotten enough from a kill recently. Still though, they are primarily herbivores.
And things like cattle, buffalo, and other grazers occasionally eat insects, small rodents or birds, and other things down in the grass. They are still primarily herbivores, though.
I see your overall point, that they are mostly carnivores, but wolves and coyotes actually do consume a small amount of plant matter, mostly grass.
n/a bareballzthebitch 2017-07-09
Wait. They have a dog that talks? Even if he says stupid shit that in itself is amazing.
n/a mehforeverybody 2017-07-09
[[[they]]]] watch Disney too much.
n/a BizarrelyRussophilic 2017-07-09
I fucking LOVE eating animals. Burgers, steak, chicken, pork, lamb, all kinds of fish, its all the best shit
n/a boyoyoyoyong 2017-07-09
God morning damn meat is delicious
n/a NoRealsOnlyFeels 2017-07-09
You know what I could go for right now? A nice, big meat.
n/a scatmunchies 2017-07-09
In your bussy
n/a phedre 2017-07-09
Couldn't we all.
n/a phedre 2017-07-09
Foie gras is fucking delicious.
n/a Elite_AI 2017-07-09
Know what my favourite kinda beef is? Arena beef. Feels so much better knowing the bull it's made from died in pure agony.
Best part is I'm not even memeing.
n/a SpotNL 2017-07-09
Doesn't stress hormones ruin meat?
n/a lokichilde 2017-07-09
Nah, fear is delicious.
n/a SpotNL 2017-07-09
If you like meat that chews like gum, sure.
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
im glad you are telling all your friends in /r/drama
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
gr8 story
n/a satanismyhomeboy 2017-07-09
>go vegan because you hate animal cruelty
>torture your dog
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-07-09
Animals are never cruel in nature! It's all one big Disney movie complete with the shitty musicals.
n/a OccasionallyClueless 2017-07-09
Zootopia shows us what would happen if humans were gone.
Source: Biologist
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
cos every vegan thinks this
n/a cannedmule 2017-07-09
How do vegans justify nature then, it's animal suffering and cruelty on a grand scale. A bolt gun to a cows head or slitting a sleeping chickens neck is a great mercy compared to how most of their counterparts in nature die. The only practical solution if you care about alleviating animal suffering is to completely destroy or domesticate all of them and humans' carnivorism is the greatest contributor to that cause. If you actually cared about animal suffering instead of just posing as if you do you would eat meat.
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
We don't "justify" nature. Nature is pretty harsh for a lot of animals and we get that.
Sure, but its' not like we are taking a chicken out from the wild then killing it. We are breeding them for slaughter.
wild animal suffering is a real issue. But its very hard to fix, for obvious reasons. You know what is easy to fix? Human farming of animals, because we can just stop doing it
n/a LeFabulousFaggot 2017-07-09
No thanks, I’d rather eat meat. There isn’t a single vegan dish on earth that can even come close to being as delicious as meat especially duck.
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
ok cool i really wanted your opinion
n/a LeFabulousFaggot 2017-07-09
Well you’re vegan, so you don’t understand what good food tastes like, you needed to be reminded because you think that we could just stop farming delicious food like that.
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
i wasnt born vegan you meatcuck.
n/a LeFabulousFaggot 2017-07-09
But you became one, so you were just surrounded by bad food.
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
oh yea thats how it works. im done replying i have a life i need to live, unlike you /r/drama people
n/a LeFabulousFaggot 2017-07-09
Try some foi gras or caviar and you’ll understand why people will always eat meat.
n/a taterbizkit 2017-07-09
Promise?
n/a cannedmule 2017-07-09
Human farming of animals destroys nature which is where the vast majority of animal suffering is happening. If we stopped eating meat then our destruction of habitats would slow immensely. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Killing enemies in a war is regrettable but letting them kill you is much worse. In this case slaughter is regrettable but the near perpetual suffering of most wild species is much worse.
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
lmao is this serious
n/a cannedmule 2017-07-09
Whether I'm serious or not doesn't change the fact that you're too stupid to have an actual counter-argument to this.
n/a headasplodes 2017-07-09
This needs to be a snapshill quote
n/a TheJum 2017-07-09
Seconded as fuck.
n/a HuckleberryFN2187 2017-07-09
Meet my new friend, Larry the Leopard Seal!
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19480731
n/a TSA_Precheck 2017-07-09
http://i.imgur.com/A4g8O.gif
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
"Blood samples were collected at weeks 0, 3, 8 and 16, and veterinary health checks were conducted at weeks 0, 8 and 16. Haematology results for all dogs, irrespective of diet, were within normal range throughout the study and the consulting veterinarian assessed all dogs to be in excellent physical condition"
n/a TSA_Precheck 2017-07-09
http://i.imgur.com/A4g8O.gif
n/a tathrowaway666 2017-07-09
"Post bussy or your dog get ass cancer"
n/a ProfessedBug 2017-07-09
So if smoking doesn't give you cancer in 16 weeks, then smoking doesn't give you cancer!!!
n/a MargotRobbieRotten 2017-07-09
Yeah but it's like 112 dog weeks
n/a strathmeyer 2017-07-09
The whole reason they did that study is because vegan diets are unhealthy for dogs. Otherwise they wouldn't need to do it.
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
"Vegan diets are unhealthy for dogs"
Linda P. Case, a dog trainer, canine nutritionist, and science writer who specializes in topics about canine nutrition (with degrees on animal sciences and nutrition from Cornell and The University of Cornell) states "When we look at the evidence, we see that both nutritionally and taxonomically, the dog is best classified as an omnivore." As far as her opinion on this discussion, she also disagrees with you and says "so dogs have a requirement for animal-based ingredients in their diets? No, they do not" as well as "the domestic dog is... capable of consuming and obtaining nutrition from a wide variety of food types".
As far as your body of evidence is concerned, there is admittedly an issue of lack of large amounts of work done in the area. However work done in the topic invariably points towards the fact that a plant based diet is perfectly healthy for dogs. You have the study I linked, as well as the comments from Case which I mentioned earlier. Beyond that there is Dr. Jennifer Coates, Senior Researcher at Feinstein International Center at Tufts University, who says "It is true that dogs belong to the order Carnivora, but they are actually omnivores. The canine body has the ability to transform certain amino acids, the building blocks or protein, into others, meaning dogs can get all the amino acids they need without eating meat" and "dogs can eat a vegetarian diet and thrive". Simply googling the question reports many more educated professionals agreeing with Coates and Case. As far as studies are concerned, you can look up many others, but Vegetarian Versus Meat Based Diets for Companion Animals in WDPI, by Andrew Knight and Madelaine Leitsberger is an example of a metareview of four separate studies which ends in the conclusion that dogs can most likely entertain vegan diets. It states "Dogs may thrive on vegetarian diets... [if they are] nutritionally complete and reasonably balanced."
n/a ProgressiveFragility 2017-07-09
I met with Brenda Fitzgerald, the director of the CDC, to ask her about vegan dog diets, this is what she had to say:
n/a lokichilde 2017-07-09
lol
n/a PrinceKameltoe 2017-07-09
MRW
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
Linda P. Case, a dog trainer, canine nutritionist, and science writer who specializes in topics about canine nutrition (with degrees on animal sciences and nutrition from Cornell and The University of Cornell) states "When we look at the evidence, we see that both nutritionally and taxonomically, the dog is best classified as an omnivore." As far as her opinion on this discussion, she also disagrees with you and says "so dogs have a requirement for animal-based ingredients in their diets? No, they do not" as well as "the domestic dog is... capable of consuming and obtaining nutrition from a wide variety of food types".
As far as your body of evidence is concerned, there is admittedly an issue of lack of large amounts of work done in the area. However work done in the topic invariably points towards the fact that a plant based diet is perfectly healthy for dogs. You have the study I linked, as well as the comments from Case which I mentioned earlier. Beyond that there is Dr. Jennifer Coates, Senior Researcher at Feinstein International Center at Tufts University, who says "It is true that dogs belong to the order Carnivora, but they are actually omnivores. The canine body has the ability to transform certain amino acids, the building blocks or protein, into others, meaning dogs can get all the amino acids they need without eating meat" and "dogs can eat a vegetarian diet and thrive". Simply googling the question reports many more educated professionals agreeing with Coates and Case. As far as studies are concerned, you can look up many others, but Vegetarian Versus Meat Based Diets for Companion Animals in WDPI, by Andrew Knight and Madelaine Leitsberger is an example of a metareview of four separate studies which ends in the conclusion that dogs can most likely entertain vegan diets. It states "Dogs may thrive on vegetarian diets... [if they are] nutritionally complete and reasonably balanced."
n/a Works_of_memercy 2017-07-09
But, like, what's the point of that in the larger picture? Yeah, with some effort you can give your carnivore pet a less than miserable existence using vitamin supplements and careful diet, but why?
What's the end game? Teaching lions and wolves to eat grass? Exterminating all carnivores who can't be helped?
How does your brave new future look like globally? Because it's weird to go for much effort to implement some vision locally if you don't have an idea of how it should work if everyone does that and everything goes along with that.
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
Most dogs already eat brown pellets out of a bag, I'm sure they can't tell a huge different between processed brown pellets. They're scavengers, it's not like they have an incredibly refined pallet. Besides that, if the entirety of somebodies dogs happiness relies on mealtime, there are other issues. As for your other point, I'm not here to discuss broader animal and mora philosophy, just here to counter the idiots claiming the only healthy diet for a dog is 6 cows per day.
n/a Works_of_memercy 2017-07-09
I don't think many people claim that it's literally impossible to feed a dog, or even a cat, in a vegan way, using them pellets with artificially produced aminoacids and whatever, if you can find such a pellet producer.
The question is, why bother, exactly?
Like, this is an edge case that points out a huge problem in the whole vegan philosophy: if you are committing a lot of effort to make sure that feeding your dog doesn't involve killing a cow, what do you think about a wild wolf's diet? If you don't think that we should exterminate wolves or get them on the vegan pellet diet, then why do you bother re: dogs and cats?
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
If you want to talk about this, fine. You're engaging in classic Nirvana Fallacy, or appea to futility style arguments. It's like saying "why should I vote, it's not like my vote will matter" or "why should I not steal things, other people will always steal things". If you can't end all wars between humans, why even bother stopping killings? Clearly that makes no sense, the goal is simply to strive to create as much benefit as possible, not personally create a utopian reality. The vegan's goal is to save the lives of animals they would have otherwise do harmed. They don't eat burgers for a year to prevent that one cow from being harmed. They don't go vegan as an attempt to end all suffering, caused by any being, everywhere, forever.
n/a Works_of_memercy 2017-07-09
No, it's not a nirvana fallacy. There's a direct, natural category that encompasses wolves, dogs, tigers, and cats. If you're OK with wild cats eating birds, then you should be OK with domestic cats eating cows, because it's natural for them while you don't eat cows yourself.
If you're not OK with domestic cats eating cows then an explanation is in order for your plans re: wild cats. "Oh I just want to reduce animal suffering a little here" doesn't fly in my opinion, because, I'm not sure how to explain it, the whole and entire thrust of "reducing animal suffering" is nullified if you flat out refuse to consider wild animals which outnumber domestic cats and dogs.
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
The idea is to reduce animal suffering that oneself causes. You don't use your purchasing power to purchase your dog meat because that would create increased demand on meat, resulting in increased production, resulting in more harmed cows. You do this because it is something you can do with absolutely minimal discomfort to yourself. What you're saying is like "What kind of idiot would decide not to steal from their neighbors, and then be perfectly ok with other people stealing across the country. Those assholes should either care about all stealing or no stealing at all. Either you become a thief yourself or you dedicate your entire life to stoping everyone from stealing anything ever." Reduce suffering that yourself would cause. You are faced with a decision, to harm an animal or not, and you choose not to. Another way to look at it is that there is incredibly minimal suffering in not eating meat, or not buying leather, or not buying your dog meat. It is not necessary for any of those animals to be harmed, so it doesn't need to happen. However, a lion or tiger or hawk has to eat meat to survive. It makes sense then that they have the right to eat other animals, it's the only way they can live. Eating animals is not the only way humans can live. So by avoiding it, we avoid unnecessary suffering. If I absolutely had to eat an animal to live, like an eagle, then I would. But as it stands, I don't, so I won't. Wild animals that have to kill to survive are different than modern humans which can easily survive without killing.
n/a Works_of_memercy 2017-07-09
I understand that logic, what I'm having some trouble with is deciding to inflict some discomfort on your dog instead of yourself. I mean, if a wolf has the right to eat meat, then why not the dog?
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
A wild wolf dies without meat. A pet dog doesn't.
n/a [deleted] 2017-07-09
[removed]
n/a bytewake 2017-07-09
lol you created an alt just to fucking post here
n/a AntiLuke 2017-07-09
That's just like, your opinion, man.
n/a zahlman 2017-07-09
Uhh, yes of course there is. If we didn't consider there to be, they wouldn't be farm animals, they'd be pets. The entire concept of "farm animals" is built around treating them differently. The fact that most of us (no, you don't get to make prescriptive ethical statements for the rest of us; or at least, you can try, but we'll just laugh) consider it acceptable to kill farm animals for meat (n.b. a horse is not meaningfully a "farm animal", it's simply a sort of pet that's kept on farms), is a defining characteristic of the category.
If you want to argue that there isn't an ethical difference depending on the species, then that's a bit different. Like, I'd even be willing to spot you a couple Rhetoric Points for noting that rabbits are considered in either category depending on the culture.
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
but vegan diets aren't cruel for dogs you fucking nerds
n/a proghjkl 2017-07-09
God damn, bringing out the big guns early.
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
i bring out the best for the /r/drama crowd
n/a lokichilde 2017-07-09
If this is your best...
n/a bytewake 2017-07-09
and our banter is pretty poor to begin with
n/a 80BAIT08 2017-07-09
Yeah they are. Don't abuse your dog you degen.
n/a RueysSoulDiegosFight 2017-07-09
I am a vegan, but my dog isn't. That said, he seems pretty happy to eat my food, when I step out of the room, that shithead.
n/a 80BAIT08 2017-07-09
Animals are dicks. They'll eat anything they see us eat. Even if it makes them spew all over the rug!
n/a Wait____________What 2017-07-09
But what if my dog isn't a faggot?
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
Dogs can survive on a vegan diet. It'll be pure torment, but they can sort of survive.
Cats are hypercarnivores, they can only eat meat.
n/a niczar 2017-07-09
Well they can also become diabetic, like their obese owners.
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
Even without owners
n/a phedre 2017-07-09
Interestingly, they can also recover from diabetes, which humans cannot.
n/a niczar 2017-07-09
You can recover from type 2 diabetes with a low-carb, high fat diet ... which is incidentally what a cat would eay.
n/a phedre 2017-07-09
TIL. I don't know a ton about diabetes in humans. I did have a diabetic cat a few years ago though, who recovered!
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-07-09
People can survive on all sorts of deprivation diets. Just ask the folks in my basement.
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19480731
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
That's cool fam, but there's a lot more going in a dog's body than just aenemia.
Too bad they didn't check amino acid content, gut flora, muscle mass, heart rate, muscle-associated waste products, bile salts, etc.
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
"And the consulting veterinarian assessed all dogs were in excellent physical condition"
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
Well fuck me, that's some grade A scientific proof right there. You can't dectermine whether completely overhauling a carnivore's diet doesn't affect his biochemistry if you don't do biochemical tests. A vet can't determine that with basic tests, you'll need lab tests for that, especially if you want to publish.
And the fact that they only reported red blood cell counts sounds very suspicious about it.
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
You're just spewing random sciency sounding terms to make a point. Dogs aren't carnivores. A hematology test is a biochemical test, and while they didn't report every aspect of the test, it wasn't directly related to the hypothesis so it was necessary. Whether or not it was related to the hypothesis, the information that a physical exam and complete bloodwork turned up no issues would indicate there is nothing wrong with the dogs. Conditions don't just magically develop, asymptomatically , without evidence in blood or upon physical examination. Theoretically something could have slipped through but there if all current scientific evidence, besides just this paper, indicates that it is perfectly healthy, you'll need to provide some proof that is isn't in order to refute that large body of evidence.
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
Dogs are fucking carnivores, as are the wolves they descend from. They're pretty good at it too, and assume the role of apex predator in most of their habitat.
That's true, but in that case, you can only conclude that feeding a dog plant-based diet will not affect his red blood cell count. That's nice and all, but it doesn't say much about the over-all health or other long-term effects. If you want to conclude anything about the over-all health of the dog, then you need to do better tests than "a vet said they look healthy". Platelet count won't save a dog when his kidneys start to shutdown or his guts start to atrophy.
In fact, if you look up the first author of your publication, you'll see that they followed this paper up with another paper, which shows that plant-based supplements do affect the biochemistry of dogs. And the original paper is by no definition a "large body of evidence". You know what's a large body of evidence? All the evidence that shows that dogs have evolved to be fantastic meat-eaters.
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
You're just stating, over and over, that dogs are carnivores, despite the fact you haven't backed this with any evidence whatsoever. Linda P. Case, a dog trainer, canine nutritionist, and science writer who specializes in topics about canine nutrition (with degrees on animal sciences and nutrition from Cornell and The University of Cornell) disagrees with your uneducated statement. She states "When we look at the evidence, we see that both nutritionally and taxonomically, the dog is best classified as an omnivore." As far as her opinion on this discussion, she also disagrees with you and says "so dogs have a requirement for animal-based ingredients in their diets? No, they do not" as well as "the domestic dog is... capable of consuming and obtaining nutrition from a wide variety of food types".
You also seem to be confused as to what exactly a blood test can check for, because it is much less than just saying "dog has healthy blood". Through a heamatological test, many things can be shown. Abnormalities would occur if the dog has improper nutrient or vitamin intake, if they have any sort of autoimmune disease, bacterial infection, or virus, if they have issues in any of their organs such as liver damage, over-hydration, bone disorders, or anemia. Coupled with physical examination, it is safe to assume that these particular dogs are going just fine. I'm not sure why you think a dogs, which are natural scavengers and have highly adaptive diets "guts will atrophy" from not eating meat.
That other study you linked isn't really related to whether or not dogs can or can't eat plant based diets, but rather whether or not long-chain n3 fatty acids can be replaced with short-chain n3 fatty acids present in particular foods. What they found is that, it is possible these things have different effects on different breeds of dog, and the dogs in the study weren't even negatively impacted, they just reacted differently from each other. It wouldn't even make sense that dogs would need that particular nutrient from animals because the only animal it is present in is some fish and fish oils, which wouldn't be present in large amounts for many dogs contemporarily and historically anyway.
As far as your body of evidence is concerned, there is admittedly an issue of lack of large amounts of work done in the area. However work done in the topic invariably points towards the fact that a plant based diet is perfectly healthy for dogs. You have the study I linked, as well as the comments from Case which I mentioned earlier. Beyond that there is Dr. Jennifer Coates, Senior Researcher at Feinstein International Center at Tufts University, who says "It is true that dogs belong to the order Carnivora, but they are actually omnivores. The canine body has the ability to transform certain amino acids, the building blocks or protein, into others, meaning dogs can get all the amino acids they need without eating meat" and "dogs can eat a vegetarian diet and thrive". Simply googling the question reports many more educated professionals agreeing with Coates and Case. As far as studies are concerned, you can look up many others, but Vegetarian Versus Meat Based Diets for Companion Animals in WDPI, by Andrew Knight and Madelaine Leitsberger is an example of a metareview of four separate studies which ends in the conclusion that dogs can most likely entertain vegan diets. It states "Dogs may thrive on vegetarian diets... [if they are] nutritionally complete and reasonably balanced."
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
Alright i'm not going to address that entire wall of text, but one thing stands out as being completely baffling.
Alright, here you go:
http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/are-dogs-carnivores-heres-what-new-research-says
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/is-your-loving-kind-fluffy-dog-friend-a-carnivore-or-an-omnivore/
https://www.healthydogtreats.com.au/dog-nutrition/59-wolf-diet-dog-diet
But are you for real? You realize that wolves are practically at the top of the food chain in every ecological habitat, only ever challenged by the Siberian tiger. They do so because they fucking eat meat, which is the only way you can get on top of the food chain.
n/a Namenamenamenamena 2017-07-09
Omnivores eat meat.
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
And scavenging carnivores are still carnivores.
n/a ahbslldud 2017-07-09
He's making good points about the meaningful applicability of the study and you're either blinded by what you want to be true or so poorly educated scientifically that you can't see it.
Since you're talking about "scientific proof" I'm gonna say it's at least partially the latter.
n/a delethotheads 2017-07-09
i read a lot of retarded shit on /r/drama. but this really takes the fucking cake
kill yourself you retarded vegan
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
Linda P. Case, a dog trainer, canine nutritionist, and science writer who specializes in topics about canine nutrition (with degrees on animal sciences and nutrition from Cornell and The University of Cornell) disagrees with your uneducated statement. She states "When we look at the evidence, we see that both nutritionally and taxonomically, the dog is best classified as an omnivore." As far as her opinion on this discussion, she also disagrees with the vibe around here and says "so dogs have a requirement for animal-based ingredients in their diets? No, they do not" as well as "the domestic dog is... capable of consuming and obtaining nutrition from a wide variety of food types"
n/a nomad1c 2017-07-09
what is it about veganism that turns you into mindless zombies? it's weird to watch
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
Linda P. Case, a dog trainer, canine nutritionist, and science writer who specializes in topics about canine nutrition (with degrees on animal sciences and nutrition from Cornell and The University of Cornell) states "When we look at the evidence, we see that both nutritionally and taxonomically, the dog is best classified as an omnivore." As far as her opinion on this discussion, she also disagrees with you and says "so dogs have a requirement for animal-based ingredients in their diets? No, they do not" as well as "the domestic dog is... capable of consuming and obtaining nutrition from a wide variety of food types".
As far as your body of evidence is concerned, there is admittedly an issue of lack of large amounts of work done in the area. However work done in the topic invariably points towards the fact that a plant based diet is perfectly healthy for dogs. You have the study I linked, as well as the comments from Case which I mentioned earlier. Beyond that there is Dr. Jennifer Coates, Senior Researcher at Feinstein International Center at Tufts University, who says "It is true that dogs belong to the order Carnivora, but they are actually omnivores. The canine body has the ability to transform certain amino acids, the building blocks or protein, into others, meaning dogs can get all the amino acids they need without eating meat" and "dogs can eat a vegetarian diet and thrive". Simply googling the question reports many more educated professionals agreeing with Coates and Case. As far as studies are concerned, you can look up many others, but Vegetarian Versus Meat Based Diets for Companion Animals in WDPI, by Andrew Knight and Madelaine Leitsberger is an example of a metareview of four separate studies which ends in the conclusion that dogs can most likely entertain vegan diets. It states "Dogs may thrive on vegetarian diets... [if they are] nutritionally complete and reasonably balanced."
n/a nomad1c 2017-07-09
oh well if someone who trains dogs thinks they're omnivores, then i guess that settles it
n/a ahbslldud 2017-07-09
b12 deficiency
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA what the fuck are you on about
what makes you think this
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
Dunno, really
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
dogs are more omnivorous tho lmao
learn before u start typing stupid shit on the net hahahaha
anecdotally the longest living dog ate vegetarian
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
https://www.healthydogtreats.com.au/dog-nutrition/59-wolf-diet-dog-diet
Are you a teenager? It's very unhealthy to be a vegan during your teenage years; it has a high chance of turning you into a homosexual.
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
yea dude wolves
but they've adapted since being domesticated
dogs are generally considered omnivores. (For more discussion on that, this is a good source). The domestic dog has evolved alongside humans and adapted their diets accordingly.
but i don't think its bad to be homesexual unlike you, so its all good
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
The title explicitly states that the domestic dog eats the same as the wolf, you illiterate moron.
By whom? Because this article states directly the opposite.. Dogs may have evolved alongside humans, but as i already said, it's still a carnivore at heart.
In your case it might be good, because you're not getting enough protein otherwise.
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
Can Dogs Stay Healthy On A Vegetarian Diet?
An experimental meat-free diet maintained haematological characteristics in sprint-racing sled dogs (British Journal of Nutrition)
The genomic signature of dog domestication reveals adaptation to a starch-rich diet
Vegetarian Dog Food (Canadian Veterinary Journal):
Unconventional Diets for Dogs and Cats (Veterinary Clinics)
Also, fun fact: Bramble, one of the world's oldest living dogs, was vegetarian.
The science is by no means conclusive. I've yet to see any kind of long-term study done on the health of vegetarian/vegan diets for dogs. But the evidence we have at the moment seems to suggest that they can live healthy lives on vegan diets. And they are able to get all their nutritional needs from plant foods alone, however counter-intuitive that feels. Interestingly, many dogs are put on vegetarian diets when they have various food allergies.
With this evidence in front of me, I have a hard time justifying not at least trying to feed dogs a vegan diet. We know that feeding them vegan causes less overall harm to animals, and we have good reason to believe there is little risk to a dog's health when fed nutritionally complete vegan food.
That of course doesn't mean you can throw some beans and veggies in a bowl and call it a healthy diet. I'd generally advise against the bulk of the diet coming from homemade food, but instead find a commercially available food that meets AAFCO nutritional standards (V-Dog, Natural Balance Vegetarian). Be sure to transition your dog to a new food gradually. And of course, monitor your dog's health with regular vet visits, which you should be doing anyway.
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
Are you a sockpoppet of the other retard that spammed this thread? We already debunked that sled-dog article and i've got a hunch that this is just a copy paste response without much thought. And an increase in amylase doesn't make one a herbivore.
I don't blame you for that; typing costs a lot of energy and veganism doesn't offer much in terms of calories.
n/a twinksteverogers 2017-07-09
Speaking of which, how is your cat?
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
He's doing very well, he's walking and going outside again. If you didn't know what happened, you wouldn't be able to tell that he had an accident in the first place.
n/a twinksteverogers 2017-07-09
Awesome. Seeing him with his little sling lying in a cage was so sad, I used to have a cat who got a broken leg from an accident and he kinda looks like your cat which made me even more sad. I'm glad to hear he's fine now.
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
Yeah, he only had that sling on for a couple of days. He still had to be in that cage for a week, but not with that sling on.
Here is what he normally looks like
n/a satanismyhomeboy 2017-07-09
That's a good looking cat
Glad he's on the mend
n/a istealroadsigns 2017-07-09
I would gently scratch those fluffy cheeks for hours.
n/a phedre 2017-07-09
Fuck off, no you fucking don't. This makes me RAGE.
n/a Hitlery_Clinton 2017-07-09
He means dog-kin and cat-kin, shitlord
n/a skivian 2017-07-09
Cats are obligate carnivores. The only thing a vegan cat is doing, is slowly dying of malnutrition.
If I ever meet someone with with a vegan cat, I'll steal the damned thing.
n/a phedre 2017-07-09
Same tbh.
n/a lokichilde 2017-07-09
For reals. Cats need creatine. I used to work at a fancy pet food store in the SF bay area. The kind of place that sold vegetarian dog food. If a cat owner came in and asked about vegetarian cat food we'd tell them no way and that they're a horrible person.
n/a scatmunchies 2017-07-09
Taurine. Cats can synthesize creatine endogenously, but not taurine.
n/a lokichilde 2017-07-09
Ah, you're right. It's been about 15 years since I was a pet shop boy.
n/a blackrussianroulette 2017-07-09
You guys had your best hits in the 80s though
n/a lokichilde 2017-07-09
Go West!
n/a ProgressiveFragility 2017-07-09
the west is the best
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-07-09
Cats are so adapt at eating meat that they actually can derive most of their water need from meat as well, and get the rest from licking dew.
n/a Chicup 2017-07-09
Subscribe
n/a flipkt 2017-07-09
Cats are crappy pets and all of those disgusting pests should be culled.
n/a Forgotten_Son 2017-07-09
Delete this.
n/a grungebot5000 2017-07-09
vegan cat diets are just expensive as hell
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
u kno we synthetically create taurine rite
u dummy
theres still other issues that make it harder to make a healthy vegan cat food but its possible, albeit much tougher
n/a lokichilde 2017-07-09
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thedodo.com/amphtml/can-my-cat-go-vegetarian-or-ve-404421962.html
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
thats why i said its tougher lol. Mainstream thinks its impossible, but it is possible albeit risky and tough. I don't think a vegan cat owner should feel a moral obligation to get vegan cat food, but there are cats that thrive on it.
I do think its more than easy for dogs to do it.
n/a lokichilde 2017-07-09
I think waiting for more conclusive studies would be the right thing to do rather than force one's pet to eat a vegan diet without proper research.
n/a zahlman 2017-07-09
Are you really sure you want to argue that it's unethical to feed an animal the sort of things it would naturally eat on its own, but perfectly fine to satisfy its biological needs by supplementing with synthesized amino acids that you think will do the job?
Like, you know how vitamin B12 supplementation is kinda inefficient and you end up having to take a lot more of it than would actually be in the diet you're replacing? You're not worried about that sort of issue, for example?
You think it's okay to experiment on your pet, in the name of preventing cruelty to farm animals?
Just what.
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-07-09
I've owned a lot of cats over the years and they're all murdering little shits. You can love your cat, keep its food and water topped up but it'll still murder a baby bunny for shits and giggles. Saying cats can be vegan is like saying fish can live without water.
n/a OccasionallyClueless 2017-07-09
Because of water pollution, I keep my fish on a plate, hooked up to a g-tube containing vegan fish food, and another tube oxygenating it's blood.
n/a EarnestNoMeta 2017-07-09
How kind of you
n/a OccasionallyClueless 2017-07-09
I do my best to stop this fish from polluting the water.
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-07-09
Weird, I thought I was the only one.
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19480731
n/a EarnestNoMeta 2017-07-09
http://i.imgur.com/9oDfpzt.gif
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
The dogs came back with perfectly normal bloodwork and physical examination. I fail to see how my use of the paper in this situation indicates that I "failed to read" the paper. The commenter I replied to says he's never seen an OK dog on a vegan diet, the paper says dogs did ok on a vegan diet.
n/a EarnestNoMeta 2017-07-09
http://i.imgur.com/3o2pdZB.gif
n/a zahlman 2017-07-09
In case you genuinely didn't understand: you were actually being told that the other person did not read the paper, and has no interest in reading the paper, and is instead just dismissing you out of hand.
n/a Mathrex88 2017-07-09
Dogs and cats are not at all similar in dietary equipments. One is an obligate carnivore and one is an omnivore. Feeding a cat a vegan diet is literally going to kill it
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
This comprehensive analysis of a wide breadth of different studies, testimonial from the pet food industry, and consideration of nutritional sciences indicates that cats sustained on a vegetarian or vegan diet may be not only possible, but potentially beneficial.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035952/
n/a Mathrex88 2017-07-09
1) they surveyed pet food companies to make up a fundamental basis for their claims, which is like asking /r/vegan for an unbiased view of eating meat.
2) they claim it requires regular urinary monitoring of cats due to the complete incompatibility with their regular diet, which is completely unfeasible and 100% will end in deaths and illnesses for cats.
How fucking sadistic are you to inflict that on a cat?
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
There is no way you could have read that entire paper in the past couple minutes, so your arguments are null. If you actually read the paper you would know that they did not survey pet food companies as a fundamental aspect of your discoveries, they analyzed the results of 4 main and a large number of supplementary experiment as the fundamental basis for their argument. The pet food companies were mostly used as auxiliary information to come to conclusions about consumer habits involving pet food, not as evidence for or against veganism in pets either way. If you believe their is bias within the paper, it would be significantly more productive if you provided exact selections that you believe to be untrue, as well as your own evidence as to why those selections are untrue. As to your second point, it is a useless unrelated attack. I'm not saying that every consumer wants to feed their cats non-meat options, I'm saying that it is simply possible for a majority of consumers.
n/a Mathrex88 2017-07-09
Their synopsis provides exactly what is in the paper, I am paraphrasing their own words. They surveyed pet food companies, which is a completely garbage tool for making a study on suitability.
"Majority of pet owners"? That's the most bullshit statement yet. The majority of pet owners are not capable of daily urine analysis to make sure their unnatural and idiotic diet isn't killing their pet.
If you want to be a fucking disgusting vegan evangelical go for it, but leave cats and dogs out of it. They can't object to your categorical stupidity and if you kill a cat because of your ideology, you're a sadist.
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
Unsurprisingly it seems that you didn't read my previous comment. The pet food company surveys have little to do with their end conclusion's controversial claims. They surveyed pet food companies for things like "what are the typical procedures your company goes through to ensure nutritional completeness of your brands" not for things like "does your company support veganism in pets". I certainly hope that got through to you this time, because it was in the study I sent you, it was in my previous comment, and now it is in this one. If you're not going to bother to read the paper, at least read what I'm saying to you. The surveys of pet food companies did not contribute a significant impact upon any aspect of the vegan vs nonvegan discussion.
If you'd read the paper, you would also know that the urinary analysis is not daily, as you said it was (even though you didn't read the study). It is monthly, and can be done on a regular veterinary check up if you ask them. If they refuse to, or you don't take your dog or cat to the vet, the test can be done at home using a simple pH strip, the ones that are incredibly inexpensive and easy to use, that most people probably used in elementary science class. Truly no greater trials and tribulations present themselves to a pet owner, asking your vet to check your pets pee, or dipping a 6 cent strip of paper into their pee once a month.
And again you finish in absurd claims that I am a rambling idiot, while you insist upon the presence of nonexistent moronic statements within a paper you failed to even read.
n/a grungebot5000 2017-07-09
they figured out how to synthesize taurine like forever ago dude
n/a ExtreemWeenie 2017-07-09
https://i.imgur.com/Y88pgKp_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thu
n/a boyoyoyoyong 2017-07-09
u/thearlonian Jesus your a piece of shit aren't you /follow_the_protocol I had no idea wolves fed on vegetables.. Kill yourself if you can't feed your dog meat don't get a dog
n/a Kyoopy11 2017-07-09
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19480731
n/a PrinceKameltoe 2017-07-09
Stop spamming this shit its one article and it doesn't prove shit.
n/a Illiux 2017-07-09
You have zero, which proves even less.
n/a PrinceKameltoe 2017-07-09
Here's my proof.
n/a nickimiraj 2017-07-09
why dont these morons just cut out the middle man and get a rabbit, it makes 0 sense for a vegan to get a meat eating animal
n/a hakkzpets 2017-07-09
Then they would have to sacrifice something they actually care about, unlike sacrificing meat to become a vegan.
n/a 0kwhatever 2017-07-09
as a vegan it boils my blood i'm associated with people that think it's okay to have vegan cats
n/a OccasionallyClueless 2017-07-09
Since you are vegan, what is your stance on the pet trade in general? Is that something vegans are for/against?
n/a spoderdan 2017-07-09
I can offer an opinion here, but keep in mind that there is no generalised vegan perspective or opinion. The vegan movement is made up of thousands of individuals, all with their own views on various issues.
I personally am against the pet trade, because I feel like non-human animals are deserving of personhood, and as such I think they should be afforded the right to not be the property of another animal. I think the status of one animal owning another is not okay.
n/a 0kwhatever 2017-07-09
I second that, took the words right out of my mouth. I personally don't think it's wrong to have pets as long as the owner (and I use this term because under the law pets are 'owned') realise that the animal has needs physical and emotional and will see that animal is kept well, I also believe that animals have personhood and someone responsible for one should be aware of that (hence why I disagree with the whole vegan cats thing). I don't think it is right to breed and sell animals for pets, I detest the whole idea of puppy mills and am against taking wild animals as pets also. I advocate adopting rescued animals from shelters as those are animals that actually need to be taken care of, and frankly don't think adopting a pet is any different than adopting a child.
n/a grungebot5000 2017-07-09
2017
still thinking dogs are obligate carnivores
if you want an ethical dilemma, get a fucking cat
n/a ProfessedBug 2017-07-09
Hey there u/rome_apple!! Whose alt are you? u/-6-6-'s??
n/a sudden_potato 2017-07-09
imma copy paste this great comment by /u/sydbobyd
So, dogs are generally considered omnivores. (For more discussion on that, this is a good source). The domestic dog has evolved alongside humans and adapted their diets accordingly. A few links of interest:
Can Dogs Stay Healthy On A Vegetarian Diet?
An experimental meat-free diet maintained haematological characteristics in sprint-racing sled dogs (British Journal of Nutrition)
The genomic signature of dog domestication reveals adaptation to a starch-rich diet
Vegetarian Dog Food (Canadian Veterinary Journal):
Unconventional Diets for Dogs and Cats (Veterinary Clinics)
Also, fun fact: Bramble, one of the world's oldest living dogs, was vegetarian.
The science is by no means conclusive. I've yet to see any kind of long-term study done on the health of vegetarian/vegan diets for dogs. But the evidence we have at the moment seems to suggest that they can live healthy lives on vegan diets. And they are able to get all their nutritional needs from plant foods alone, however counter-intuitive that feels. Interestingly, many dogs are put on vegetarian diets when they have various food allergies.
With this evidence in front of me, I have a hard time justifying not at least trying to feed dogs a vegan diet. We know that feeding them vegan causes less overall harm to animals, and we have good reason to believe there is little risk to a dog's health when fed nutritionally complete vegan food.
That of course doesn't mean you can throw some beans and veggies in a bowl and call it a healthy diet. I'd generally advise against the bulk of the diet coming from homemade food, but instead find a commercially available food that meets AAFCO nutritional standards (V-Dog, Natural Balance Vegetarian). Be sure to transition your dog to a new food gradually. And of course, monitor your dog's health with regular vet visits, which you should be doing anyway.
n/a Pepperglue 2017-07-09
This is why I don't keep pet. I don't want my pet to get my mental illness.
n/a Lorenzo_Canyon 2017-07-09
Imposing veganism on children or animals is something that makes me really angry.
n/a justThroMeAwayFam 2017-07-09
Veganism is a mental disorder.
n/a HuckleberryFN2187 2017-07-09
/u/gibbonjiggle, if your kitteh's biological needs bother you so much why don't you just "humanely euthanize" him? You'd be killing a beloved pet, sure, but you'd save far more lives in the long run, you fool.
n/a gibbonjiggle 2017-07-09
Did you read the whole post you quoted? The animals are going to be euthanized either way, they're being fed to wildlife.
n/a Raven0520 2017-07-09
It's a fucking dog lmao, holy shit, they literally exist because we imposed our will on them.
Does he not house train his dog? I mean, what kind of human-supremacist scumbag expects his dog to conform to our societal standards of not peeing on the floor?