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1: FUCKING KILL THE FUCKER!
Indeed. It is a complex and subtle issue, and many factors are in play. But lots of people seem to want to avoid figuring it out, and instead find a way to conclude that the only cause is the fact that the menz hate the womynz.
IMO the best way would be to segregate STEM classes, at least for younger students. Boys in the class are generally more confident and louder so girls don't do as well in the mixed class which has a knock-on effect making them less likely to take STEM degrees. 90% of the girls I've seen doing engineering stuff are from all girl's schools.
STEM classes are where you sit quietly and watch your ancient accomplished professor teach the class. Humanities are where students are encouraged to chat about their personal opinions. If girls can't do well in class because they aren't loud enough then they should be going toward STEM anyway.
Seriouspost: teachers are known to have a significant grading bias in favor of their own gender, and women dominate instruction non-STEM subjects in primary and secondary school. Gravitating towards subjects you do better in early on is both expected and reasonable.
I don't know... the tide has turned and boys are falling badly behind academically in most areas, and this is translating into women now receiving the majority of degrees, and this is starting to include some of the STEM fields as well. Healthcare is in particular become a girls club.
Who would have thought that when you increase the supply of workers without increasing the demand of workers, that the price of said labor decreases...
Or that some industries like intersectional basket-weaving are fucking worthless and there's no money in it. "How come I dont get paid much in myyyyyy field"
One of my exes came from money, majored in telecommunications and minored in women's studies. When she finally finished her masters (5 years too late because she spent too much time smoking weed, chomping adderal and klonopin like candy and fucking other women behind my back) she ended up becoming a merch table girl for some shitty Sublime wannabe band and caught a case of HIV after I broke up with her crazy ass.
KIDS: What passes for "Liberal Arts" - don't do it. Not even once.
u/Naven271 I had no idea when women got to college they put a gun to their head to take a course in beyonce studies. Not sure how You can blame anyone but women for their choice when they make up 60% of college students. I'm sure you'll tell me how the patriarchy makes them take feminist dance instead of stem.
Dude, calm down. I just stated my perspective; we can have a civil debate about this. I'm currently majoring in materials science and at my University 30% of the engineers are women. I assume that's how it is most places; I'm not blaming anyone, I'm just saying that's how it appears to be to me.
I wouldn't know cuz I haven't looked into that, and I'm a guy. Out of the women I do know at my school I don't think they got very much. It's more based on financial status as far as I can tell. A women's club at my school awards ~$9,000 a year to some lucky undergrad women (as in the 9k is split between them). It also looks like there's two scholarships and one grant awarded to accomplished women each year. This was all just a quick Google search.
That's strange because the women I knew at my engineering school were mostly given ~20k a year in scholarships for women in engineering. There are also a ton of national scholarships for women in engineering that they took advantage of, but you'd know that from a quick google search
I dunno if you've ever visited /r/Drama before, but in case you haven't let me summarize:
/r/Drama is one of the most malevolent, cruel, coldhearted online communities you'll ever find, and even as a supporter of free speech it appalls me that Reddit would allow such a vile, festering hub of bigotry and sadism to exist. You think [slur]town was bad? That subreddit, if you pick up on the dog-whistles (and many don't even bother with that-- say want you want about Stormfront, at least it bans "n[slur]"), will reveal itself to you as Reddit's number one hub for the web's most hardened Nazis, Klansmen, Fascists, and Gamergaters. You'll notice on the sidebar that it encourages members to be as dramatic as possible. That's intentional. They encourage arguments in the comments section. That's intentional. You know the Three Minute Hate (it's from this underrated book 1985, give it a read, it's scary how much it parallels our society)? It's like that, they want to stoke the flames of reactionary rage so they continue to dogpile every progressive and minority who enters the subreddit, normalizing these evil feelings. They brigade from subreddit to subreddit, having an entire cabal of mods spanning hundreds of communities, gaslighting lived experiences of the oppressed and unashamedly bolstering Reddit's homegrown white supremacy movement. They've kink-shamed hundreds of people too, some even... to death. I fear that /r/drama may be producing an entire army of Dylann Roofs and Elliot Rogers, and I highly suggest that nobody dares visit that horrible subreddit, lest you potentially fall victim to its corruptive aura.
/r/Drama is one of the most malevolent, cruel, coldhearted online communities you'll ever find, and even as a supporter of free speech it appalls me that Reddit would allow such a vile, festering hub of bigotry and sadism to exist. You think [slur]town was bad? That subreddit, if you pick up on the dog-whistles (and many don't even bother with that-- say want you want about Stormfront, at least it bans "n[slur]"), will reveal itself to you as Reddit's number one hub for the web's most hardened Nazis, Klansmen, Fascists, and Gamergaters. You'll notice on the sidebar that it encourages members to be as dramatic as possible. That's intentional. They encourage arguments in the comments section. That's intentional. You know the Three Minute Hate (it's from this underrated book 1985, give it a read, it's scary how much it parallels our society)? It's like that, they want to stoke the flames of reactionary rage so they continue to dogpile every progressive and minority who enters the subreddit, normalizing these evil feelings. They brigade from subreddit to subreddit, having an entire cabal of mods spanning hundreds of communities, gaslighting lived experiences of the oppressed and unashamedly bolstering Reddit's homegrown white supremacy movement. They've kink-shamed hundreds of people too, some even... to death. I fear that /r/drama may be producing an entire army of Dylann Roofs and Elliot Rogers, and I highly suggest that nobody dares visit that horrible subreddit, lest you potentially fall victim to its corruptive aurafilled with faggots.
I love when these people always talk about more women in engineering. The fact is that more often than not, the women who are intelligent enough to go into engineering go into medicine because that kind of work is more inline with their personalities and desires. I don't know about outside of New Zealand but over 50% of medical school years are female. Were those women told by the patriarchy that they're not allowed into engineering, computer science, etc where they would all clearly exceed if they wanted to?
It's absolute nonsense, it's been at least 25 years of women being told they could do anything. The schools are designed around teaching girls and most teachers are women. The women are kept back thing in the west has gotten to the point of absurdity, the government, education system, businesses bend over backwards to cater to women . It bottles my mind how the most coddled group of people in modern human history can claim they are opressed
My favourite is the "problem" of not enough women writing open source software. A voluntary pastime/hobby with very low barriers to entry, where you can remain entirely anonymous and have as much success as anyone regardless of gender.
Shit like that is everywhere, all trying to come up with any reason that women don't like it and don't stick around apart from the fact that to get anything done you need to put in a lot of hours, and all but the most trivial projects are varying degrees of very difficult. Oh and you don't get paid.
Basically it's a hobby for shutin nerds with no social skills, which always will be a heavily male niche no matter what pressure gets applied. They are all beta cucks though, so easy prey for gender warriors.
The normies who took a "coding bootcamp" and love JavaScript frameworks are cucks, and they're just contributing because Open Source is "trendy"; occasionally they'll piss off an actual shut-in nerd who lives and breathes a particular project, and they'll have the pull to ensure nothing ever comes of a crusade.
It's a mixed bag. Anyone remember the opal drama (also documented here)? A code of conduct was instated, but the SJW-friendly owner of the project also left right after (see how Adam hasn't committed anything since early 2015, Elia is still going strong).
What it also highlighted is that quite a few of the women in open source are trans. I guess chopping your dick off is one way of getting more women into engineering.
anyone who thinks wages are determined beyond "how much money will this position make us" and "is this position hard to fill" are out of their freaking minds
I'd say that's some of the most intense circlejerking I've ever seen, but only about a fourth of the sub actually has a penis so I can't. Circlejilling.
please do not reach for the Oil rig worker, he does NOT have a more dangerous job then the inner city ER nurse testing herself for HIV for the sixth time because some drug addict sprayed blood all over her face.
She objectively does not. Oil rig works die much more often on the job than ER nurses.
hi my name is h2s and im a gas that will kill you as soon as you cant smell me. oops the well just gassed have fun with immediate brain damage or death. also your opinion is useless because you don't know the difference between service and drilling rigs.
Did you make even a minimal attempt to read my comment? What part of "being a woman" led you to refer to me as "he"? Communication is a two way street and you're in the wrong lane.
Hmm, nah, that sounds like something a typical SJW would do, TBQH.
Really, it just amuses me and provides some relief from the dismal drudge that is my daily life to see the bullshit that people come out with. I've little interest in 'calling people out' where it doesn't directly concern me.
Yeh,one of my best mates is a teacher. Dead peots society is a film, "Oh Captain, my captain" is one of the most powerful lines from the film. No spoilers, the scene I'm referring to with it is probably one of the most powerful moments I've seen in any film. It's why that film holds such a special place in my heart, and why it was the first Robin Williams film I watched when he passed.
The rest was basically just saying he is smart, and it's not just a "those who can do, those who can't teach" situation.
I'm also fully aware that basically calling him an idiot who's getting mugged off (pay wise) is quite harsh, we have a pretty fucked up sense of humor.
Besides, who the fuck wants to read page after page of political bullshit on here? Bit of weirdness spices it all up ;)
Nurses are convinced they have the most challenging, thankless jobs in the world, despite working 3 days a week and being one of the most celebrated professions in media.
It's absolutely insane that childcare workers are paid so poorly given that they are entrusted with the welfare of our children - basically temporary parents.
This is actually a good point. But it's much easier to be mad at hypothetical evil sexist corporations than about the free and rational human behavior creating an undesirable outcome.
Hi Billy, I know you have to study for your test tomorrow, but could you fill in for our brain surgeon tonight? Medical gloves are in the cupboard under the sink and scalpels are in the cutlery drawer. We'll be back at ten. You're a saint!
literal highschoolers have been entrusted to be childcare workers for decades. if you can dial 911 competently or put on a band-aid you can do it.
Yea but you can't do it well. There have been a more than a few of cases in my town of kids dying/getting all fucked up because the 15 year old making 5 dollars an hour to watch them was to busy getting high or doing home work
Parents are paid nothing. And most people can't afford daycare workers. In order for them to be paid what these people apparently think they should be paid it would only make sense for both parents to work if both of them made far more than what a daycare worker is paid. which results 9 times out of 10 in the mother not getting to pursue her career.
/u/cloudy2005 the salaries in nursing have gone up because the nursing union is one of the most terrifying unions on the planet not because a couple of dudes wanted into a profession that would let him bang his coworkers.
And please do not reach for the Oil rig worker, he does NOT have a more dangerous job then the inner city ER nurse testing herself for HIV for the sixth time because some drug addict sprayed blood all over her face.
can you tell me if you're being serious or not? Do you know how effective antiviral treatment if done within an appropriate timeframe after exposure?
or in the case that HIV is contracted, what would you prefer: crushing trauma injuries leaving you physically disabled/dead which is what happens on rigs, or an entirely manageable infection which is effectively a non-issue with modern medicine?
For starters the transmission rate for HIV is extremely low.
Secondly, with the appropriate contingency plans in place for needle stick injuries HIV/Hep etc is basically a non-issue.
All it takes is doing a serology work up on you for a baseline, and the patient to discover what infectious elements are present if any and then taking the appropriate course of medications to prevent infection taking place.
I'll take that over being stuck in the ocean with hundres of tons of material swinging around and causing fatal crush injuries/fatalities any day of the week.
And before you sperg out any more. I know this first hand because I cut myself while doing a post-mortem on a high risk case (IV drug user with Hep & suspected HIV) and it was really a non issue because I got the appropriate blood work done straight away, and took the right course of action to prevent anything happening.
No wait, let me start, in the hope of not being taken out of context any longer. Obviously I doubt there is any chance of genuine debate on whatever this sub is, but hey, I can be an optimist.
The fact that men on average make more then women is a multi layered concept.
There are few places that pay women less because they are women, or where the same job is systematically given a higher salary to men instead of women.
Obviously its not that easy. But it doesn't mean its an issue that should be looked at.
The top contributors to this statistic are jobs that rely on salary negotiation, where women typically do worse then men. Of course that does not apply to all women, nor does the opposite apply to all men. So its an issue with Salary Negotiation, and how it affects certain personality types. The fact that this happens to show itself a cross the genders allows us to spot the issue, though the solution might not be as evident.
And then you have the big one, career paths TYPICALLY chosen by women pay less on average then career paths women typically do not choose.
Lets first just admit that finding a proper solution to this topic is going to be very hard, obviously this goes beyond just culture (though that is part of it) and in some cases speak to fundamental issues with a Market Based economy, not to say it proves any alternative better.
But it is NOT because male jobs are more dangerous.
Unfortunately this argument pops up all the fucking time, and its annoying.
We are largely talking about Python programmers and Tax Lawyers vs Nurses and Teachers here. But wait... there is that one profession that keeps coming up.
This is a typical example of post hoc ergo propter hoc, or a correlation fallacy. The number is too small to actually have a proper correlation, yet its used all the time. Well its an extreme example, and we have those on the other side.
Hence the ER nurse. There are about 4 million Nurses in the US, 63% of them work in hospitals, which means there are far more working in Inner City ERs then there are rig workers. Which is a pretty stressful and dangerous job any way you draw it. Patching up gangbangers, getting threatened on a regular basis, and of course me example of being aggressively spit on the face by someone that might or might not be HIV positive.
This is the part where your Autism kicked in btw, trying to explain to me how its no big deal to contract HIV these days. Hey, not the frikkin point pal.
Anyway, these are pretty complex topics, you want to debate them go right ahead, I think I'm kinda done here.
Anyway, what does that massive wall of text have to do with
and please do not reach for the Oil rig worker, he does NOT have a more dangerous job then the inner city ER nurse
you literally said that the ER nurse is a more dangerous job when that's just not true.
This is the part where your Autism kicked in btw
ableist
trying to explain to me how its no big deal to contract HIV these days.
Well it's obviously not ideal, but it's far from life threatening and HIV patients live perfectly normal lives. That combined with the fact that it would be extremely difficult for a healthcare worker (especially one already in an ER) to contract HIV/hepatitis/whatever I don't know how you reached the conclusion you originally made.
So can you explain how you managed to come up with the statement that being an ER nurse is 100% more dangerous than being an oil rig worker? Or are you just going to keep deflecting from that or call me dumb or something
Never said that. I mean its not relevant to my argument one single bit, as I explained.
But I said a Rig worker does not have a more dangerous job then an ER nurse working in the inner city. Which is different from the horseshit strawman you have been pushing on me.
ok so explain to me how a rig worker doesn't have a more dangerous job than an inner city ER nurse? You've already shown you don't really understand viral transmission nor acute treatment for viral infection including HIV, so what is it?
What am I answering exactly? You said that an ER nurse job can be as dangerous as an oil rig workers job, I said that's not true. Your original basis for that claim was a poor and factually incorrect understanding of viral transmission vectors, and acute exposure treatment.
I guess I'll need you to lay out some further explanations for how an ER nurses job can ever be as dangerous as a rig worker.
So in short: my stance is that no, they cannot be equal.
I'm quite happy to be in the context. Let's try again: you're saying that an ER nurse job can be as dangerous as a oil rig workers job because of things like HIV, going by what you said. I'm saying that's not true and the job can never be as dangerous as a rig workers.
Oh come on, in your original post about inner city ER nurses having jobs as dangerous as oil rig workers you were talking about it being more dangerous, you even posted later on about how rig workers only have a slight risk of death, downplaying one of the worlds most dangerous jobs.
But even if you're saying they can be equal, the fact is they can't be, oil rig workers will always be at a higher risk of significant harm than ER nurses. Oil rigs don't have security and police on standby to help with their problems. They're also in extremely remote areas and access to advanced medicine is either a flight away or restricted by weather conditions.
workers you were talking about it being more dangerous
Nope. I was pretty obviously making an equivalency. I know because I was there.
And I have never presented another point of view to you, which you just lied about, your second lie. I have been consistently quoting my original post, and defending that EXACT line.
I like how you keep saying I'm the one rowing yet you can't mount a defensible argument for how being an ER nurse is even comparable to being an oil rig worker in terms of persistent danger... which you know... this was all about to begin with
a Rig worker does not have a more dangerous job then an ER nurse working in the inner city
...which is untrue. By the way, I notice the sexist way you gendered the role of nurse:
he does NOT have a more dangerous job then the inner city ER nurse testing herself for HIV for the sixth time because some drug addict sprayed blood all over her face [my emphasis]
Here in the UK, 11.4% of registered nurses in the UK are male, but I see you just wrote them out, presumably because you're a fucking sexist white knight prick. And as a former nurse (only an auxiliary mind you, but a nurse all the same), it's fucking annoying and demoralising to have people like you write what few men are managing to make their way in the profession out of the picture altogether. I honestly think it says a lot about your attitudes that you would do that.
Stop being disingenuous. This is not twoX. Everyone could see you're making claim for ER nurses having it worse and nobody here will accept your plausible deniability . Whether he was hyperbolic or meant 100% as certainly does not matter. He is not trying to steer the conversation away. You are doing that by trying to catch him on words instead of arguing the actual argment and everyone can see it.
Your disingenuous/obtuse attempts at defense of your position make me lose some respect for nurses whos job I consider undervalued.
Everyone could see you're making claim for ER nurses having it worse
Nope never said that, already been through that one btw.
The claim that I was making is that the wage disparity is worth looking into, I have no opinion on what job is "worse".
You are doing that by trying to catch him on words instead of arguing the actual argment
AHAHAHA! You are hilarious sir. Because NOBODY has tried that against me here AT ALL.
Yep yep, its all been me. This subreddit is so cute. It's not often I get to interact with such a deep and well insulated echo chamber, I find it fascinating.
LOL! I was dragged in here, not the other way around. I HAD a debate going in the other sureddit, here I'm doing nothing but clearing up misconceptions about my opinion. I have no interest in actually debating any of you.
No wait, let me start, in the hope of not being taken out of context any longer
No one is taking you out of context, we're pointing out stupid things you say.
Obviously I doubt there is any chance of genuine debate on whatever this sub is, but hey, I can be an optimist.
This sub is for drama and memes. There is little hope of the faggotry of seriousposting
You ramble about the wage gap
But it is NOT because male jobs are more dangerous.
Men literally are 10 times more likely to die on the job than women. Danger pay adds up, as does "don't tell X board about our illegal working conductions" pay
We are largely talking about Python programmers and Tax Lawyers vs Nurses and Teachers here. But wait... there is that one profession that keeps coming up.
The Oil Rig worker. All 12500 of them in the Gulf Coast. (Yep, that's the actual number.)
This is a typical example of post hoc ergo propter hoc, or a correlation fallacy. The number is too small to actually have a proper correlation, yet its used all the time. Well its an extreme example, and we have those on the other side.
Hence the ER nurse. There are about 4 million Nurses in the US, 63% of them work in hospitals, which means there are far more working in Inner City ERs then there are rig workers. Which is a pretty stressful and dangerous job any way you draw it. Patching up gangbangers, getting threatened on a regular basis, and of course my example of being aggressively spit on the face by someone that might or might not be HIV positive.
You're retarded. Oil rig workers are an example. Men die 10 times more often on the job compared to men. That's a fact. Reeeeeing about examples of it changes nothing.
This is the part where your Autism kicked in btw, trying to explain to me how its no big deal to contract HIV these days. Hey, not the frikkin point pal.
Then what was the fucking point?! If HIV is hard to contract then exposure to it isn't dangerous and your entire "ER nurses are totes in more danger" line falls the fuck apart.
No one is taking you out of context, we're pointing out stupid things you say.
By taking them out of context.
This sub is for drama and memes. There is little hope of the faggotry of seriousposting
Just Trolls and Shitposters. Got it. Never been here before, I genuinely did not know.
Men literally are 10 times more likely to die on the jobanywhere than women.
This stat has nothing to do with career choices. Most well paying jobs with an overweight of men are in programming or finance, not the tiny tiny percentage of jobs like il Rigging. Again, you are trying to take my point out of context.
Then what was the fucking point?!
See above, and TRY, JUST TRY to think for ONE second.
Men literally are 10 times more likely to die on the job anywhere than women.
This stat has nothing to do with career choices. Most well paying jobs with an overweight of men are in programming or finance, not the tiny tiny percentage of jobs like il Rigging. Again, you are trying to take my point out of context.
Again you're a retard. Men are more likely to die on the job because of the job. IE they get crushed to death by a falling engine in a mechanics shop, not a programmer has a heart act.
And that's not what out of context means. Did you fail english in high school?
You're clearly completely ignorant on this topic and I'm done with you
The top contributors to this statistic are jobs that rely on salary negotiation
I'm calling bullshit unless you offer proof.
where women typically do worse then men
This is a hard thing to actually prove, but let's assume this is true, would it be something that society has to address? If I buy a shirt for $200 and I could have brought the same shirt for $10, am I now entitled to $190 from the government?
And then you have the big one, career paths TYPICALLY chosen by women pay less on average then career paths women typically do not choose.
Must be nice to be able to pick what you love to do no matter how much it pays. There are 18 year old kids today, that will start university in the fall to become elementary school teachers. Those kids know that they're signing up for at best a middle class life. They are picking that career regardless of the consequences and do not get to bitch about their salaries five years from now.
Lets first just admit that finding a proper solution to this topic is going to be very hard
Good news. A solution has been found! Harvard economist Claudia Goldin found the root cause for the residual pay gap to be caused by the fact that men typically work longer hours and have a better chance of being in the office at key moments. Being at the office at those key moments help them further their careers. In other words, there is a non-linear increase in your salary when you work 50 hours vs. 40 per week. Being able to work from home seems like a great benefit, but it actually comes with a big price tag of lost promotions.
Her suggestion is to turn workers into more of a commodity and make them interchangeable. You can read her paper, just the conclusion if you'd prefer, for details.
But it is NOT because male jobs are more dangerous.
It's all supply and demand. Most people do not want to live on an oil rig, dangerous or not.
The Oil Rig worker ... its used all the time
By you. You brought it up, not us.
far more working in Inner City ERs then there are rig workers
When the supply of something goes up, the price of it goes down. When it is easy to hire an ER nurse, and nurse Sally is as good as nurse Mary, why should an hospital pay Mary extra to keep her? The oil rig is different because there are time constraints ("got the get the oil out of the ground now while the price is high"), so you pay Jack more to keep him on the job so that you can meet your deadline.
Patching up gangbangers, getting threatened on a regular basis, and of course my example of being aggressively spit on the face by someone that might or might not be HIV positive.
Evidence suggests that you're overstating the dangers of nursing. If nursing was dangerous, there would be less people becoming nurses, and the salaries would go up because hospitals would be competing for a sparse resource.
This is a hard thing to actually prove, but let's assume this is true, would it be something that society has to address? If I buy a shirt for $200 and I could have brought the same shirt for $10, am I now entitled to $190 from the government?
Nope. Nor did I ever make any such claim.
Must be nice to be able to pick what you love to do no matter how much it pays. There are 18 year old kids today, that will start university in the fall to become elementary school teachers. Those kids know that they're signing up for at best a middle class life. They are picking that career regardless of the consequences and do not get to bitch about their salaries five years from now.
...and?
Good news. A solution has been found! Harvard economist Claudia Goldin found the root cause for the residual pay gap to be caused by the fact that men typically work longer hours and have a better chance of being in the office at key moments. Being at the office at those key moments help them further their careers. In other words, there is a non-linear increase in your salary when you work 50 hours vs. 40 per week. Being able to work from home seems like a great benefit, but it actually comes with a big price tag of lost promotions.
Her suggestion is to turn workers into more of a commodity and make them interchangeable. You can read her paper, just the conclusion if you'd prefer, for details.
Which was my point. The issue is not black and white, and no one is saying there is some simple statebased solution here. These are cultural issues, and they matter because it allows us to look at our culture as a whole.
It's all supply and demand. Most people do not want to live on an oil rig, dangerous or not.
When the supply of something goes up, the price of it goes down. When it is easy to hire an ER nurse, and nurse Sally is as good as nurse Mary, why should an hospital pay Mary extra to keep her? The oil rig is different because there are time constraints ("got the get the oil out of the ground now while the price is high"), so you pay Jack more to keep him on the job so that you can meet your deadline.
Nope. Registered Nurse is one of the top IN DEMAND careers in the US currently, so your Market Based analogy falls flat.
No, I was having an argument on another board, and had it dragged, taken out of context to THIS place. My point was perfectly within context with the person I was originally debating.
Evidence suggests that you're overstating the dangers of nursing.
Sure, but the POINT is that there are 12500 Oil Rig workers in the Gulf coast, while the US has 4 million+ Nurses. In other words we are comparing only the 1% of the nurses in the absolute WORST work environments.
Whether one or the other is more stressful is equally relevant.
"The top contributors to this statistic are jobs that rely on salary negotiation, where women typically do worse then men."
Broken down this claim has two sub claims:
1) Negotiation is a "top contributor" to one's salary and therefore the wage gap, if it is proven that men are better negotiators
2) women are worse at negotiating compared to men
The article you linked does nothing to address #1. For two, it says women are less likely to apply for jobs that explicitly state that the salary is negotiable (keep in mind all salaries are negotiable), not that they are bad at negotiating compared to men. In fact the article states:
"However, when the job description explicitly mentioned that wages were negotiable, this difference disappeared and seemed to reverse. In this scenario, both genders were equally likely to initiate negotiations (women at 21.2% and men at 21.4%) and equally hesitant to offer working for lower wages (women at 6.2% and men at 6.0%)".
The overall findings indicate that explicitly stating that salaries are negotiable closes the gender gap in job applications, as men prefer jobs where the possibility of negotiating wage is ambiguous.
So, if you honestly believe negotiation is a "top contributor" to the "wage gap", then the solution is to tell women all job positions have negotiable salaries, whether they are explicitly stated or not. Done.
...and?
The point is women knowingly go into careers that pay less. You cannot do this and expect society to fix your financial situation down the line.
These are cultural issues, and they matter because it allows us to look at our culture as a whole.
Well, the typical feminist approach is the explain away the wage gap as sexism. Feminists do black and white, we don't. You in your now infamous post didn't say, 'men are becoming oil rig workers, and women are becoming nurses. Women who want more money should become oil rig workers!', you stated that both jobs are equivalent danger wise (clearly false) and therefore should be paid the same. The economy doesn't work that way, salaries and prices, etc. are determined by supply and demand. I'm sure you can find an online course that explains it. It is a vital thing to know and once you know it, you'll never asked the question "why are those fields payed (sic) less?" ever again.
Note: it isn't clear that an oil rig worker makes more money just because it is dangerous. There are many factors involved.
so your Market Based analogy falls flat.
That would be true if the salaries of nurses weren't going up as demand increased. Since nursing salaries are up, my "analogy" holds. Listen, the US is a free market economy, supply and demand is the cornerstone of economics. We wouldn't be able to manage the economy if certain basic truths did not hold. Who knows, maybe 10 years from now nurses will be making more money then oil rig workers.
Again, salaries are determined by supply and demand. Nursing might be in demand, but oil rig workers might be in more demand, the supplies of candidates are different. When you factor all of those variables in, you get the salary situation that we're in at.
Sure, but the POINT is
So you're saying the average nurse isn't paid less since we're comparing cushy nurses vs. oil rig workers. I fail to see how this helps your claim that female dominated jobs are being singled out.
It certainly is stressful and I'd assume ER nurses did get paid more, but it is not dangerous. If it was dangerous, that would indicate that hospital doesn't have a decent safety protocol in place.
Well the same can be said for oil rigs. The fact is most of them are pretty safe. The issue is really that's it's an industry notorious for not keeping safety standards.
Regardless it's a mostly moot point, CAN an ER nurse, working the late shift in the inner city, have a more stressful job then a person working on an Oil rig. Of course, it depends on the situation and the individual.
Salaries are determined by supply and demand. If ER nurses are paid less, it's because there are either less demand, or more supply of people willing to work at the ER relative to an oil rig.
CAN an ER nurse, working the late shift in the inner city, have a more stressful job then a person working on an Oil rig.
If that's your point it's a stupid point. A massage therapist can have a more stressful job than an oil rig worker, but that's a pointless argument to make.
Nurses would kill for a 12 hour shift where they don't have people's lives in the balance every second.
In what sort of hospital does a nurse have a patients life in the balance every second? Nurses are directed by Doctors on the course of treatment and if a patient undergoes an event that requires resus for example that process is lead by a team of doctors.
Nurses are important but don't twist it to make it sound like they're the ones who are making the decisions which ultimately determine the outcome of a patient, that's disingenuous and disrespective to the hard work nurses actually do and what doctors do.
A nurse practitioner is a physician extender, not an RN. It is a masters level degree as an RN has a bachelors level degree. I believe they are pushing to have NP's get their doctorate in the future.
Eh, someone mentioned ER nurses so that's what I looked up. Anyway, the medical field in H-town is huge and there are a ton of well paying jobs in the medical field there and a very low cost of living.
My comment was regarding nurses making 6 figure salaries. Your post demonstrates that even with a masters level degree and added responsibility the salary for a nurse practitioner in your city is far from 6 figures.
The 75k salary that you linked is still for a Nurse Practitioner, which is not a nurse. They have experience as a nurse, but are required to obtain more education (get a masters) and experience (clinical rotations) to become a Nurse Practitioner.... Anecdotally your aunt makes 6 figures as a nurse. That's pretty great for her.
Honestly, I'd rather have a limb ripped off than contract HIV.
/u/lick_the_wrapper that's a dumb thing to say. Currently, if you contract HIV, you're almost certainly not going to die from it, and we're 5 years away from curing it with CRISPR.
162 comments
1 SnapshillBot 2017-08-02
You're oversimplifying a complex situation to the point of adding nothing to the discussion.
Snapshots:
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1 apescaper 2017-08-02
kys snappy
1 mehforeverybody 2017-08-02
Fuck off, how dare you insult Snappy.
1 ProphetRith 2017-08-02
Shut your mouth you dumb, faggot, whore
1 TSwizzlesNipples 2017-08-02
/r/botsrights
1 MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-08-02
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All the nuggies and BBQ sauce in the world can't forgive this transgression.
1 StezzerLolz 2017-08-02
maintain ur safety
1 darth_stroyer 2017-08-02
MODS
1 TotesMessenger 2017-08-02
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1 Tobans 2017-08-02
Death to those who insult snappy!
1 ComedicSans 2017-08-02
You dun goofed.
1 aqouta 2017-08-02
bad bot
1 tomato_man123 2017-08-02
Wage gap is a subtle issue but the rediculous "wages go down because field becomes more feminized" meme has to die.
1 JakeDC 2017-08-02
Indeed. It is a complex and subtle issue, and many factors are in play. But lots of people seem to want to avoid figuring it out, and instead find a way to conclude that the only cause is the fact that the menz hate the womynz.
1 NationalDenbt 2017-08-02
IMO the best way would be to segregate STEM classes, at least for younger students. Boys in the class are generally more confident and louder so girls don't do as well in the mixed class which has a knock-on effect making them less likely to take STEM degrees. 90% of the girls I've seen doing engineering stuff are from all girl's schools.
1 JakeDC 2017-08-02
When will the coddling stop, though?
1 menvaren 2017-08-02
The plan is never.
1 JakeDC 2017-08-02
All evidence suggests this is the case.
1 _white_lives_matter_ 2017-08-02
When women evolve into men.
1 Kekistanian9000 2017-08-02
We got a nobel prize winner fired for the shit you just said.
1 UmmahSultan 2017-08-02
STEM classes are where you sit quietly and watch your ancient accomplished professor teach the class. Humanities are where students are encouraged to chat about their personal opinions. If girls can't do well in class because they aren't loud enough then they should be going toward STEM anyway.
1 die_rattin 2017-08-02
Seriouspost: teachers are known to have a significant grading bias in favor of their own gender, and women dominate instruction non-STEM subjects in primary and secondary school. Gravitating towards subjects you do better in early on is both expected and reasonable.
1 Tell_them_to_shrug 2017-08-02
I've been operating off the assumption that the significant male presence in STEM is just boys fleeing feminist bias in academics for years.
1 aqouta 2017-08-02
Yeah so you want the one girl to get 1 on 1 tutoring or are other schools not like the one I went to? Maybe CS was just particularly bad.
1 meatpuppet79 2017-08-02
I don't know... the tide has turned and boys are falling badly behind academically in most areas, and this is translating into women now receiving the majority of degrees, and this is starting to include some of the STEM fields as well. Healthcare is in particular become a girls club.
1 die_rattin 2017-08-02
FTFY
1 bufedad 2017-08-02
Who would have thought that when you increase the supply of workers without increasing the demand of workers, that the price of said labor decreases...
1 deere442 2017-08-02
Or that some industries like intersectional basket-weaving are fucking worthless and there's no money in it. "How come I dont get paid much in myyyyyy field"
1 RevLoki 2017-08-02
One of my exes came from money, majored in telecommunications and minored in women's studies. When she finally finished her masters (5 years too late because she spent too much time smoking weed, chomping adderal and klonopin like candy and fucking other women behind my back) she ended up becoming a merch table girl for some shitty Sublime wannabe band and caught a case of HIV after I broke up with her crazy ass.
KIDS: What passes for "Liberal Arts" - don't do it. Not even once.
1 boyoyoyoyong 2017-08-02
u/Naven271 I had no idea when women got to college they put a gun to their head to take a course in beyonce studies. Not sure how You can blame anyone but women for their choice when they make up 60% of college students. I'm sure you'll tell me how the patriarchy makes them take feminist dance instead of stem.
1 menvaren 2017-08-02
I swear, no group has more contempt for women than TwoX/TrollX/SRD feminists.
1 die_rattin 2017-08-02
Well they're mostly men so it's not a huge surprise
1 menvaren 2017-08-02
Ahem, I believe the term is nu-males.
1 Chicup 2017-08-02
We used to call them pussies when I was growing up.
1 Works_of_memercy 2017-08-02
And encouraging virile young men to fuck them in the bussy, hell yeah!
1 MessyEnema 2017-08-02
cyber eunuchs
1 _white_lives_matter_ 2017-08-02
🤣
1 aqouta 2017-08-02
pussies is offensive to women, they don't want to be associated with those faux men.
1 caffienatedjedi 2017-08-02
I love the bigotry of low expectations. It is rampant in these groups that claim to be representative of 'disadvantaged groups'
1 Naven271 2017-08-02
Dude, calm down. I just stated my perspective; we can have a civil debate about this. I'm currently majoring in materials science and at my University 30% of the engineers are women. I assume that's how it is most places; I'm not blaming anyone, I'm just saying that's how it appears to be to me.
1 Thestateyest 2017-08-02
Does your school offer massive financial incentives to women, or is it different than literally every other engineering school on earth?
1 Naven271 2017-08-02
I wouldn't know cuz I haven't looked into that, and I'm a guy. Out of the women I do know at my school I don't think they got very much. It's more based on financial status as far as I can tell. A women's club at my school awards ~$9,000 a year to some lucky undergrad women (as in the 9k is split between them). It also looks like there's two scholarships and one grant awarded to accomplished women each year. This was all just a quick Google search.
1 CIRCLONT6 2017-08-02
lol okay, doubt that
1 Thestateyest 2017-08-02
That's strange because the women I knew at my engineering school were mostly given ~20k a year in scholarships for women in engineering. There are also a ton of national scholarships for women in engineering that they took advantage of, but you'd know that from a quick google search
1 youcanteatbullets 2017-08-02
I dunno if you've ever visited /r/Drama before, but in case you haven't let me summarize:
/r/Drama is one of the most malevolent, cruel, coldhearted online communities you'll ever find, and even as a supporter of free speech it appalls me that Reddit would allow such a vile, festering hub of bigotry and sadism to exist. You think [slur]town was bad? That subreddit, if you pick up on the dog-whistles (and many don't even bother with that-- say want you want about Stormfront, at least it bans "n[slur]"), will reveal itself to you as Reddit's number one hub for the web's most hardened Nazis, Klansmen, Fascists, and Gamergaters. You'll notice on the sidebar that it encourages members to be as dramatic as possible. That's intentional. They encourage arguments in the comments section. That's intentional. You know the Three Minute Hate (it's from this underrated book 1985, give it a read, it's scary how much it parallels our society)? It's like that, they want to stoke the flames of reactionary rage so they continue to dogpile every progressive and minority who enters the subreddit, normalizing these evil feelings. They brigade from subreddit to subreddit, having an entire cabal of mods spanning hundreds of communities, gaslighting lived experiences of the oppressed and unashamedly bolstering Reddit's homegrown white supremacy movement. They've kink-shamed hundreds of people too, some even... to death. I fear that /r/drama may be producing an entire army of Dylann Roofs and Elliot Rogers, and I highly suggest that nobody dares visit that horrible subreddit, lest you potentially fall victim to its corruptive aura.
1 NotAllMenAreLikeThat 2017-08-02
FTFY
1 MooseHeckler 2017-08-02
You say that like its a bad thing.
1 NotAllMenAreLikeThat 2017-08-02
I never said it was a bad thing.
1 MooseHeckler 2017-08-02
¯_(ツ)_/¯
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
I love when these people always talk about more women in engineering. The fact is that more often than not, the women who are intelligent enough to go into engineering go into medicine because that kind of work is more inline with their personalities and desires. I don't know about outside of New Zealand but over 50% of medical school years are female. Were those women told by the patriarchy that they're not allowed into engineering, computer science, etc where they would all clearly exceed if they wanted to?
1 boyoyoyoyong 2017-08-02
It's absolute nonsense, it's been at least 25 years of women being told they could do anything. The schools are designed around teaching girls and most teachers are women. The women are kept back thing in the west has gotten to the point of absurdity, the government, education system, businesses bend over backwards to cater to women . It bottles my mind how the most coddled group of people in modern human history can claim they are opressed
1 nanonan 2017-08-02
My favourite is the "problem" of not enough women writing open source software. A voluntary pastime/hobby with very low barriers to entry, where you can remain entirely anonymous and have as much success as anyone regardless of gender.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
lol is this for real? I've never heard that one, that's truly stupid
1 nanonan 2017-08-02
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/more-evidence-of-sexism-on-github-2016-2?r=US&IR=T
http://www.ibtimes.com/diversity-tech-open-source-networks-have-sexism-problem-2547192
Shit like that is everywhere, all trying to come up with any reason that women don't like it and don't stick around apart from the fact that to get anything done you need to put in a lot of hours, and all but the most trivial projects are varying degrees of very difficult. Oh and you don't get paid.
1 die_rattin 2017-08-02
You'd think women with the skills to do that stuff not wanting to do it would be a point in their favor, but...
1 nanonan 2017-08-02
Basically it's a hobby for shutin nerds with no social skills, which always will be a heavily male niche no matter what pressure gets applied. They are all beta cucks though, so easy prey for gender warriors.
1 TheCodexx 2017-08-02
The normies who took a "coding bootcamp" and love JavaScript frameworks are cucks, and they're just contributing because Open Source is "trendy"; occasionally they'll piss off an actual shut-in nerd who lives and breathes a particular project, and they'll have the pull to ensure nothing ever comes of a crusade.
1 DudeCat 2017-08-02
It's a mixed bag. Anyone remember the opal drama (also documented here)? A code of conduct was instated, but the SJW-friendly owner of the project also left right after (see how Adam hasn't committed anything since early 2015, Elia is still going strong).
What it also highlighted is that quite a few of the women in open source are trans. I guess chopping your dick off is one way of getting more women into engineering.
1 80BAIT08 2017-08-02
That's what everyone's always been telling them. Dolts.
1 XhotwheelsloverX 2017-08-02
At least there was a moment of clarity before the legbeards came in and DAEWOMENAREOPPRESSED.
1 nomad1c 2017-08-02
anyone who thinks wages are determined beyond "how much money will this position make us" and "is this position hard to fill" are out of their freaking minds
1 Tony_AbbottPBUH 2017-08-02
"what is the least amount of money we can pay to attract someone competent"
1 nomad1c 2017-08-02
"also lets try and start a nationwide trend of hiring women, then lower their wages, muhahaha"
1 ManhattanTransFur 2017-08-02
"Hmm, this invoice says $2400 but I am going to pay less because girl." - how libtards think money works
1 myalias1 2017-08-02
I'd say that's some of the most intense circlejerking I've ever seen, but only about a fourth of the sub actually has a penis so I can't. Circlejilling.
1 [deleted] 2017-08-02
[deleted]
1 dogbref 2017-08-02
how did they let that get to the front page? shut it down
1 double-happiness 2017-08-02
WTF
---
1 Ardvarkeating101 2017-08-02
At least ping her you pussy. Yo! /u/Throwaway65161! /u/double-happiness is calling you out!
1 keepittropical 2017-08-02
It was /u/exodus111 causing all the drama with the retarded oil rig vs. Inner city nurse question.
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Huh... another Subreddit. That's interesting.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
be honest... that old rig vs nurse shit was a joke right? Please say yes
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
LOL!! Bring it bitch! What you got for me?
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
replied to your other comment. You sure seem friendly..
1 Tell_them_to_shrug 2017-08-02
Any job requiring more than 4 work days a week, for one.
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Are you... I don't... are you trying to hire me for something...?
Hey, I'm not saying no.
1 Ardvarkeating101 2017-08-02
He's saying your comparison was retarded in the extreme
1 ineedmorealts 2017-08-02
She objectively does not. Oil rig works die much more often on the job than ER nurses.
1 metameanderer 2017-08-02
hi my name is h2s and im a gas that will kill you as soon as you cant smell me. oops the well just gassed have fun with immediate brain damage or death. also your opinion is useless because you don't know the difference between service and drilling rigs.
1 ElsatheIceKhaleesi 2017-08-02
I know it'd crazy. Your echo chamber isn't the only sub on this site!
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
There are other, WAY MORE DENSE, Echo chambers? Got it.
1 ElsatheIceKhaleesi 2017-08-02
I'm really sorry you have to lead such a bitter life. Being a woman and not having to feel oppressed every second of every day is fantastic.
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Huh? Are you talking to me?
1 Ardvarkeating101 2017-08-02
He's trying, sweetey, but most of us can't fit our heads that far up our own asses
1 ElsatheIceKhaleesi 2017-08-02
Did you make even a minimal attempt to read my comment? What part of "being a woman" led you to refer to me as "he"? Communication is a two way street and you're in the wrong lane.
1 Ardvarkeating101 2017-08-02
I was just trying not to assume xir gender
1 ElsatheIceKhaleesi 2017-08-02
You clearly assumed it was a typo because holy shit a real womyn doesn't agree with me impossible
1 Ardvarkeating101 2017-08-02
I can't tell if you're serious right now.
1 double-happiness 2017-08-02
Hmm, nah, that sounds like something a typical SJW would do, TBQH.
Really, it just amuses me and provides some relief from the dismal drudge that is my daily life to see the bullshit that people come out with. I've little interest in 'calling people out' where it doesn't directly concern me.
1 Throwaway65161 2017-08-02
Yeh,one of my best mates is a teacher. Dead peots society is a film, "Oh Captain, my captain" is one of the most powerful lines from the film. No spoilers, the scene I'm referring to with it is probably one of the most powerful moments I've seen in any film. It's why that film holds such a special place in my heart, and why it was the first Robin Williams film I watched when he passed.
The rest was basically just saying he is smart, and it's not just a "those who can do, those who can't teach" situation.
I'm also fully aware that basically calling him an idiot who's getting mugged off (pay wise) is quite harsh, we have a pretty fucked up sense of humor.
Besides, who the fuck wants to read page after page of political bullshit on here? Bit of weirdness spices it all up ;)
1 Tell_them_to_shrug 2017-08-02
Nurses are convinced they have the most challenging, thankless jobs in the world, despite working 3 days a week and being one of the most celebrated professions in media.
1 freet0 2017-08-02
This is actually a good point. But it's much easier to be mad at hypothetical evil sexist corporations than about the free and rational human behavior creating an undesirable outcome.
1 dogbref 2017-08-02
literal highschoolers have been entrusted to be childcare workers for decades. if you can dial 911 competently or put on a band-aid you can do it.
it absolutely should not be paid anymore than the market allows just cus it's "noble" or something.
1 ashent2 2017-08-02
these people believe motherhood is the hardest job on the planet despite everyone everywhere doing it successfully with no training
1 satanismyhomeboy 2017-08-02
Hi Billy, I know you have to study for your test tomorrow, but could you fill in for our brain surgeon tonight? Medical gloves are in the cupboard under the sink and scalpels are in the cutlery drawer. We'll be back at ten. You're a saint!
1 Flying_Momo 2017-08-02
Even monkeys can easily do this motherhood job. Hell their kids become independent adults much sooner than these millennial selfie vlogging moms
1 aqouta 2017-08-02
to be fair they come out of the womb way more developed because the mother won the cranium size vs vaginal canal bet.
1 Flying_Momo 2017-08-02
With the amount of Darwin award winners and social media posts, I am doubting whether the larger cranium was of any use
1 Works_of_memercy 2017-08-02
Actually you are living proof that no, not everyone, lol.
1 freet0 2017-08-02
I assumed we were talking about teachers, not babysitters
1 Tell_them_to_shrug 2017-08-02
Same thing
1 Tell_them_to_shrug 2017-08-02
Fucking thank you.
I'm sick of the bitching and moaning about how pay should be based on arbitrary measures of what the mob considers "respectable."
1 ineedmorealts 2017-08-02
Yea but you can't do it well. There have been a more than a few of cases in my town of kids dying/getting all fucked up because the 15 year old making 5 dollars an hour to watch them was to busy getting high or doing home work
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
I'd take being paid less in childcare as a women than walking on eggshells to avoid being accused as a sex offender doing the same job as a man tbh
1 CIRCLONT6 2017-08-02
every women I've ever known that's taken early childhood education has been a fucking basket case
1 aqouta 2017-08-02
Parents are paid nothing. And most people can't afford daycare workers. In order for them to be paid what these people apparently think they should be paid it would only make sense for both parents to work if both of them made far more than what a daycare worker is paid. which results 9 times out of 10 in the mother not getting to pursue her career.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
/u/cloudy2005 the salaries in nursing have gone up because the nursing union is one of the most terrifying unions on the planet not because a couple of dudes wanted into a profession that would let him bang his coworkers.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
/u/exodus111
can you tell me if you're being serious or not? Do you know how effective antiviral treatment if done within an appropriate timeframe after exposure?
or in the case that HIV is contracted, what would you prefer: crushing trauma injuries leaving you physically disabled/dead which is what happens on rigs, or an entirely manageable infection which is effectively a non-issue with modern medicine?
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
WOW!! What a fucking comment.
Hey kids, mommy contracted HIV again... God I love this job. No stressful work environment here....
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
For starters the transmission rate for HIV is extremely low.
Secondly, with the appropriate contingency plans in place for needle stick injuries HIV/Hep etc is basically a non-issue.
All it takes is doing a serology work up on you for a baseline, and the patient to discover what infectious elements are present if any and then taking the appropriate course of medications to prevent infection taking place.
I'll take that over being stuck in the ocean with hundres of tons of material swinging around and causing fatal crush injuries/fatalities any day of the week.
And before you sperg out any more. I know this first hand because I cut myself while doing a post-mortem on a high risk case (IV drug user with Hep & suspected HIV) and it was really a non issue because I got the appropriate blood work done straight away, and took the right course of action to prevent anything happening.
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
/sigh and why is this relevant?
No wait, let me start, in the hope of not being taken out of context any longer. Obviously I doubt there is any chance of genuine debate on whatever this sub is, but hey, I can be an optimist.
The fact that men on average make more then women is a multi layered concept.
There are few places that pay women less because they are women, or where the same job is systematically given a higher salary to men instead of women.
Obviously its not that easy. But it doesn't mean its an issue that should be looked at.
The top contributors to this statistic are jobs that rely on salary negotiation, where women typically do worse then men. Of course that does not apply to all women, nor does the opposite apply to all men. So its an issue with Salary Negotiation, and how it affects certain personality types. The fact that this happens to show itself a cross the genders allows us to spot the issue, though the solution might not be as evident.
And then you have the big one, career paths TYPICALLY chosen by women pay less on average then career paths women typically do not choose.
Lets first just admit that finding a proper solution to this topic is going to be very hard, obviously this goes beyond just culture (though that is part of it) and in some cases speak to fundamental issues with a Market Based economy, not to say it proves any alternative better.
But it is NOT because male jobs are more dangerous.
Unfortunately this argument pops up all the fucking time, and its annoying.
We are largely talking about Python programmers and Tax Lawyers vs Nurses and Teachers here. But wait... there is that one profession that keeps coming up.
The Oil Rig worker. All 12500 of them in the Gulf Coast. (Yep, that's the actual number.)
This is a typical example of post hoc ergo propter hoc, or a correlation fallacy. The number is too small to actually have a proper correlation, yet its used all the time. Well its an extreme example, and we have those on the other side.
Hence the ER nurse. There are about 4 million Nurses in the US, 63% of them work in hospitals, which means there are far more working in Inner City ERs then there are rig workers. Which is a pretty stressful and dangerous job any way you draw it. Patching up gangbangers, getting threatened on a regular basis, and of course me example of being aggressively spit on the face by someone that might or might not be HIV positive.
This is the part where your Autism kicked in btw, trying to explain to me how its no big deal to contract HIV these days. Hey, not the frikkin point pal.
Anyway, these are pretty complex topics, you want to debate them go right ahead, I think I'm kinda done here.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
You don't catch HIV from being spat on.
Anyway, what does that massive wall of text have to do with
you literally said that the ER nurse is a more dangerous job when that's just not true.
ableist
Well it's obviously not ideal, but it's far from life threatening and HIV patients live perfectly normal lives. That combined with the fact that it would be extremely difficult for a healthcare worker (especially one already in an ER) to contract HIV/hepatitis/whatever I don't know how you reached the conclusion you originally made.
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Wow, back to arguing this. Ok, I tried.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
????
Of course I'm back to arguing that, that's why I pinged you to begin with lol
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Good for you pal.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
So can you explain how you managed to come up with the statement that being an ER nurse is 100% more dangerous than being an oil rig worker? Or are you just going to keep deflecting from that or call me dumb or something
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Never said that. I mean its not relevant to my argument one single bit, as I explained.
But I said a Rig worker does not have a more dangerous job then an ER nurse working in the inner city. Which is different from the horseshit strawman you have been pushing on me.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
ok so explain to me how a rig worker doesn't have a more dangerous job than an inner city ER nurse? You've already shown you don't really understand viral transmission nor acute treatment for viral infection including HIV, so what is it?
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Stop, wait. don't change the subject.
Yes or no answer. You DO realize the difference between what I said:
Which implies they can be equal, or in some way equivalent.
And what you pretended I said:
Which opens for no such possibilty.
You DO realize those two are NOT the same right? Don't try to weasel your way out, Yes or No.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
tbh when I said 100% you can replace that with unquestionably, not actually on some sort of scaling.
It sounds like you're the one trying to weasel out of this one here, friendo
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Yes or No pal. Is it, or is it not that same?
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
What am I answering exactly? You said that an ER nurse job can be as dangerous as an oil rig workers job, I said that's not true. Your original basis for that claim was a poor and factually incorrect understanding of viral transmission vectors, and acute exposure treatment.
I guess I'll need you to lay out some further explanations for how an ER nurses job can ever be as dangerous as a rig worker.
So in short: my stance is that no, they cannot be equal.
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Since you did not remotely answer the question Ill repeat myself:
Yes?
or...
No?
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
Yes. But I also said you're wrong because being a nurse will never be as dangerous as being a rig worker
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
In Norwegian this is called Rowing.
As in, you are desperately attempting to Row your way out of the that actual context.
I love how you are pretending you didn't understand the Question.
Which remains, unanswered.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
I'm quite happy to be in the context. Let's try again: you're saying that an ER nurse job can be as dangerous as a oil rig workers job because of things like HIV, going by what you said. I'm saying that's not true and the job can never be as dangerous as a rig workers.
What am I dodging here?
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
So you NOW admit this is what I said. which is different from whatyou claimed I said:
So you are now admitting that was a Strawman attempt?
I'm ready for your apology.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
I'm saying that's what you're saying now. It's pretty clear that's not what you meant in the twox thread
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
LOL! When did I say anything different?
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
Oh come on, in your original post about inner city ER nurses having jobs as dangerous as oil rig workers you were talking about it being more dangerous, you even posted later on about how rig workers only have a slight risk of death, downplaying one of the worlds most dangerous jobs.
But even if you're saying they can be equal, the fact is they can't be, oil rig workers will always be at a higher risk of significant harm than ER nurses. Oil rigs don't have security and police on standby to help with their problems. They're also in extremely remote areas and access to advanced medicine is either a flight away or restricted by weather conditions.
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Nope. I was pretty obviously making an equivalency. I know because I was there.
And I have never presented another point of view to you, which you just lied about, your second lie. I have been consistently quoting my original post, and defending that EXACT line.
You keep on rowing.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
I like how you keep saying I'm the one rowing yet you can't mount a defensible argument for how being an ER nurse is even comparable to being an oil rig worker in terms of persistent danger... which you know... this was all about to begin with
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
And here we keep on rowing! Yes, change that subject!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95JRk1q8msA
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
smh
1 Tell_them_to_shrug 2017-08-02
Stop trying, cunt. He already nailed you to the wall.
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
AHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
1 heavenlytoaster 2017-08-02
Oh cmmon nobody's nailing that cunt.
1 heavenlytoaster 2017-08-02
Emotional work shitlord!
1 mybloodcansing 2017-08-02
Oh the irony.
1 double-happiness 2017-08-02
...which is untrue. By the way, I notice the sexist way you gendered the role of nurse:
Here in the UK, 11.4% of registered nurses in the UK are male, but I see you just wrote them out, presumably because you're a fucking sexist white knight prick. And as a former nurse (only an auxiliary mind you, but a nurse all the same), it's fucking annoying and demoralising to have people like you write what few men are managing to make their way in the profession out of the picture altogether. I honestly think it says a lot about your attitudes that you would do that.
1 Matthew1J 2017-08-02
Stop being disingenuous. This is not twoX. Everyone could see you're making claim for ER nurses having it worse and nobody here will accept your plausible deniability . Whether he was hyperbolic or meant 100% as certainly does not matter. He is not trying to steer the conversation away. You are doing that by trying to catch him on words instead of arguing the actual argment and everyone can see it.
Your disingenuous/obtuse attempts at defense of your position make me lose some respect for nurses whos job I consider undervalued.
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Nope never said that, already been through that one btw.
The claim that I was making is that the wage disparity is worth looking into, I have no opinion on what job is "worse".
AHAHAHA! You are hilarious sir. Because NOBODY has tried that against me here AT ALL.
Yep yep, its all been me. This subreddit is so cute. It's not often I get to interact with such a deep and well insulated echo chamber, I find it fascinating.
1 ineedmorealts 2017-08-02
God damn you deflect harder than T_D posters
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
LOL! I was dragged in here, not the other way around. I HAD a debate going in the other sureddit, here I'm doing nothing but clearing up misconceptions about my opinion. I have no interest in actually debating any of you.
1 ElsatheIceKhaleesi 2017-08-02
Debatable
1 ineedmorealts 2017-08-02
No one is taking you out of context, we're pointing out stupid things you say.
This sub is for drama and memes. There is little hope of the faggotry of seriousposting
Men literally are 10 times more likely to die on the job than women. Danger pay adds up, as does "don't tell X board about our illegal working conductions" pay
You're retarded. Oil rig workers are an example. Men die 10 times more often on the job compared to men. That's a fact. Reeeeeing about examples of it changes nothing.
Then what was the fucking point?! If HIV is hard to contract then exposure to it isn't dangerous and your entire "ER nurses are totes in more danger" line falls the fuck apart.
Which you clearly don't understand
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
By taking them out of context.
Just Trolls and Shitposters. Got it. Never been here before, I genuinely did not know.
This stat has nothing to do with career choices. Most well paying jobs with an overweight of men are in programming or finance, not the tiny tiny percentage of jobs like il Rigging. Again, you are trying to take my point out of context.
See above, and TRY, JUST TRY to think for ONE second.
1 mybloodcansing 2017-08-02
93% of fatal work injuries happen to men. Fatal work injury is not a fat computer programmer having a heart attack on the job.
1 ineedmorealts 2017-08-02
Again you're a retard. Men are more likely to die on the job because of the job. IE they get crushed to death by a falling engine in a mechanics shop, not a programmer has a heart act.
And that's not what out of context means. Did you fail english in high school?
You're clearly completely ignorant on this topic and I'm done with you
1 mybloodcansing 2017-08-02
I'm calling bullshit unless you offer proof.
This is a hard thing to actually prove, but let's assume this is true, would it be something that society has to address? If I buy a shirt for $200 and I could have brought the same shirt for $10, am I now entitled to $190 from the government?
Must be nice to be able to pick what you love to do no matter how much it pays. There are 18 year old kids today, that will start university in the fall to become elementary school teachers. Those kids know that they're signing up for at best a middle class life. They are picking that career regardless of the consequences and do not get to bitch about their salaries five years from now.
Good news. A solution has been found! Harvard economist Claudia Goldin found the root cause for the residual pay gap to be caused by the fact that men typically work longer hours and have a better chance of being in the office at key moments. Being at the office at those key moments help them further their careers. In other words, there is a non-linear increase in your salary when you work 50 hours vs. 40 per week. Being able to work from home seems like a great benefit, but it actually comes with a big price tag of lost promotions.
Her suggestion is to turn workers into more of a commodity and make them interchangeable. You can read her paper, just the conclusion if you'd prefer, for details.
It's all supply and demand. Most people do not want to live on an oil rig, dangerous or not.
By you. You brought it up, not us.
When the supply of something goes up, the price of it goes down. When it is easy to hire an ER nurse, and nurse Sally is as good as nurse Mary, why should an hospital pay Mary extra to keep her? The oil rig is different because there are time constraints ("got the get the oil out of the ground now while the price is high"), so you pay Jack more to keep him on the job so that you can meet your deadline.
Evidence suggests that you're overstating the dangers of nursing. If nursing was dangerous, there would be less people becoming nurses, and the salaries would go up because hospitals would be competing for a sparse resource.
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/do-women-avoid-salary-negotiations-evidence-large-scale-natural-field-experiment
Nope. Nor did I ever make any such claim.
...and?
Which was my point. The issue is not black and white, and no one is saying there is some simple statebased solution here. These are cultural issues, and they matter because it allows us to look at our culture as a whole.
Nope. Registered Nurse is one of the top IN DEMAND careers in the US currently, so your Market Based analogy falls flat.
https://www.villanovau.com/resources/nursing/qualified-nurses-shortage/#.WYNDZXWGNhE
No, I was having an argument on another board, and had it dragged, taken out of context to THIS place. My point was perfectly within context with the person I was originally debating.
Sure, but the POINT is that there are 12500 Oil Rig workers in the Gulf coast, while the US has 4 million+ Nurses. In other words we are comparing only the 1% of the nurses in the absolute WORST work environments.
Whether one or the other is more stressful is equally relevant.
1 mybloodcansing 2017-08-02
This is what you claimed and asked proof for:
"The top contributors to this statistic are jobs that rely on salary negotiation, where women typically do worse then men."
Broken down this claim has two sub claims:
1) Negotiation is a "top contributor" to one's salary and therefore the wage gap, if it is proven that men are better negotiators
2) women are worse at negotiating compared to men
The article you linked does nothing to address #1. For two, it says women are less likely to apply for jobs that explicitly state that the salary is negotiable (keep in mind all salaries are negotiable), not that they are bad at negotiating compared to men. In fact the article states:
So, if you honestly believe negotiation is a "top contributor" to the "wage gap", then the solution is to tell women all job positions have negotiable salaries, whether they are explicitly stated or not. Done.
The point is women knowingly go into careers that pay less. You cannot do this and expect society to fix your financial situation down the line.
Well, the typical feminist approach is the explain away the wage gap as sexism. Feminists do black and white, we don't. You in your now infamous post didn't say, 'men are becoming oil rig workers, and women are becoming nurses. Women who want more money should become oil rig workers!', you stated that both jobs are equivalent danger wise (clearly false) and therefore should be paid the same. The economy doesn't work that way, salaries and prices, etc. are determined by supply and demand. I'm sure you can find an online course that explains it. It is a vital thing to know and once you know it, you'll never asked the question "why are those fields payed (sic) less?" ever again.
Note: it isn't clear that an oil rig worker makes more money just because it is dangerous. There are many factors involved.
That would be true if the salaries of nurses weren't going up as demand increased. Since nursing salaries are up, my "analogy" holds. Listen, the US is a free market economy, supply and demand is the cornerstone of economics. We wouldn't be able to manage the economy if certain basic truths did not hold. Who knows, maybe 10 years from now nurses will be making more money then oil rig workers.
Again, salaries are determined by supply and demand. Nursing might be in demand, but oil rig workers might be in more demand, the supplies of candidates are different. When you factor all of those variables in, you get the salary situation that we're in at.
So you're saying the average nurse isn't paid less since we're comparing cushy nurses vs. oil rig workers. I fail to see how this helps your claim that female dominated jobs are being singled out.
1 Doomblaze 2017-08-02
ya everyone knows the number 1 way people get aids is from having blood on your face
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Hey, that's not a strawman at all.
1 ineedmorealts 2017-08-02
No it's not.
Saying you are a racist because you think people in the inner city have HIV would be a straw man, pointing out a shitty example is not
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Nope. Implying I said getting spit on was the number 1 way to get AIDS, is a perfect example of a strawman argument.
1 mybloodcansing 2017-08-02
It certainly is stressful and I'd assume ER nurses did get paid more, but it is not dangerous. If it was dangerous, that would indicate that hospital doesn't have a decent safety protocol in place.
1 Exodus111 2017-08-02
Well the same can be said for oil rigs. The fact is most of them are pretty safe. The issue is really that's it's an industry notorious for not keeping safety standards.
Regardless it's a mostly moot point, CAN an ER nurse, working the late shift in the inner city, have a more stressful job then a person working on an Oil rig. Of course, it depends on the situation and the individual.
1 mybloodcansing 2017-08-02
Salaries are determined by supply and demand. If ER nurses are paid less, it's because there are either less demand, or more supply of people willing to work at the ER relative to an oil rig.
1 TheMauveHand 2017-08-02
If that's your point it's a stupid point. A massage therapist can have a more stressful job than an oil rig worker, but that's a pointless argument to make.
1 ineedmorealts 2017-08-02
Wow what a fucking dodge. Tell us would you rather suffer an HIV infection or be crushed in an oil rig accident?
1 lifesbrink 2017-08-02
Luckily we have u/lauraam to tell us the real reasons women are taking different jobs....patriarchy
1 ghostchamber 2017-08-02
So, when are we going to close the workplace fatality gap?
1 Ardvarkeating101 2017-08-02
Well are you accounting for white people not being people? Because the Mayocide (praise be) is sending those numbers sky high.
1 ElsatheIceKhaleesi 2017-08-02
We won't. No one cares if the men are being affected. You'd have to convince feminists that they're in danger.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-02
/u/AadeeMoien
In what sort of hospital does a nurse have a patients life in the balance every second? Nurses are directed by Doctors on the course of treatment and if a patient undergoes an event that requires resus for example that process is lead by a team of doctors.
Nurses are important but don't twist it to make it sound like they're the ones who are making the decisions which ultimately determine the outcome of a patient, that's disingenuous and disrespective to the hard work nurses actually do and what doctors do.
1 DivinePrince2 2017-08-02
Women don't work as long on average, and aren't as physically or emotionally capable. Deal.
1 TSwizzlesNipples 2017-08-02
/u/speedylenny /u/Yuri-Girl...
https://www.indeed.com/q-er-nurse-practitioner-$75,000-l-Houston,-TX-jobs.html
1 speedylenny 2017-08-02
A nurse practitioner is a physician extender, not an RN. It is a masters level degree as an RN has a bachelors level degree. I believe they are pushing to have NP's get their doctorate in the future.
1 TSwizzlesNipples 2017-08-02
Eh, someone mentioned ER nurses so that's what I looked up. Anyway, the medical field in H-town is huge and there are a ton of well paying jobs in the medical field there and a very low cost of living.
1 speedylenny 2017-08-02
My comment was regarding nurses making 6 figure salaries. Your post demonstrates that even with a masters level degree and added responsibility the salary for a nurse practitioner in your city is far from 6 figures.
1 TSwizzlesNipples 2017-08-02
75k base before OT and bonuses. It's real easy for nurses to make 6 figures there.
Source: My aunt is a nurse.
1 speedylenny 2017-08-02
The 75k salary that you linked is still for a Nurse Practitioner, which is not a nurse. They have experience as a nurse, but are required to obtain more education (get a masters) and experience (clinical rotations) to become a Nurse Practitioner.... Anecdotally your aunt makes 6 figures as a nurse. That's pretty great for her.
1 TSwizzlesNipples 2017-08-02
Fine - here you go. 700+ jobs for just a nurse at 75k+.
https://www.indeed.com/q-nurse-$75,000-l-Houston,-TX-jobs.html
1 speedylenny 2017-08-02
Thank you so much
1 Yuri-Girl 2017-08-02
I've already gotten a few PMs regarding the matter but thanks for trying!
1 TSwizzlesNipples 2017-08-02
/u/lick_the_wrapper that's a dumb thing to say. Currently, if you contract HIV, you're almost certainly not going to die from it, and we're 5 years away from curing it with CRISPR.