NOTE: I remember that after the drama had gone on for a few days, this guy posted an update admitting that he had faked the whole thing. He's apparently deleted it, so you'll have to take me at my word.
But whatever: The real drama is in the comments he provoked.
Well. If we're talking about the grand scheme of things, removing all the blacks would make this country a much better place. Crime would plummet, our education ranking would jump and the economy wouldn't be strained by all of the gibs me dats. Are you willing to be the first to leave, for the grand scheme of things?
Well. If we're talking about the grand scheme of things, removing all the blacks would make this country a much better place. Crime would plummet, our education ranking would jump and the economy wouldn't be strained by all of the gibs me dats. Are you willing to be the first to leave, for the grand scheme of things?
god that thread is retarded. I'm willing to bet all the ones bitching are the ones too dumb to get into a school. They're acting like admission = passing the entire course. "BUT WHAT IF THEY'RE NOT SMART ENOUGH!!" they still have to pass the same tests as everyone else you dumb fucks
I'd say most of the black doctors/med students I know are from Africa(1st or 2nd gen) and those folks are easily comparable to the Asians in terms of qualifications.
how is that retarded? Do you even understand what equity is? And understand that the best thing for a population is to bring everyone up to as similar level as possible. Do you understand that often minority groups seek out providers who are also from their group preferably? No seats are being taken from alpha god tier whiteys, their seats are already allocated, extra seats are added for these minority groups. Come back to me when you actually know what you're talking about, because you factory working ass has never set foot inside a medical school nor has it actually taken the time to think these issues through outside of when you're spitting tobacco and fucking your sister and wondering why the blacks kept you from being a surgeon
Race or sex should never matter, I don't care what color my doctor is, but I do care if they were given a shortcut to their qualification for the sake of nice feelings and the luxury of being treated by a minority, and according are less good at their jobs than some other more academically competent individual.
it's not so much a shortcut though, it just means they're threshold for MCAT/GPA is lower. It doesn't mean they're given a free ride in medical school too (though depending on where you are they may have additional support structures). They still have to be up to at least the minimum standard to practice as a Dr, and generally speaking that is a very high standard with a lot of supervision on top of that.
It's a shortcut when an applicant is given a lower bar to entry to a limited field taking the place of a more suitable candidate simply because they identify as a minority. And then of course affirmative action does not end at selection, it's a feature throughout the academic path of a student.
the thing is though you shouldn't look at it as though they are taking the seat of a more suitable candidate. Medical schools will have x number of seats and then y extra seats which are for minority groups. these are completely separate and (at least in my country) funded via extra funding initiatives from the government, community & university itself. So if you took one minority out, generally speaking that wouldn't open another seat for a non-minority because the funding/resource allocation is separate.
Hopefully that makes sense, it's getting late here and reading over my earlier posts I haven't been as clear as I'd like to be (when i was serious posting at least)
Yes. It is a fundamentally unfair concept not worth pursuing.
And understand that the best thing for a population is to bring everyone up to as similar level as possible.
No. To understand that, it would have to be true. It is not true.
Do you understand that often minority groups seek out providers who are also from their group preferably?
Sure. So does everyone, including white people. This is, of course, racist. Regardless of who is doing it. People are kinda shitty like that. Tribalism abounds. It is a millenia-old survival instinct that really did keep people alive in the past. Unfortunately, we evolve much more slowly than we progress as a society.
No seats are being taken from alpha god tier whiteys, their seats are already allocated, extra seats are added for these minority groups.
So you're saying there are more seats available in total, even after adjusting for population increases?
And who is paying for this?
Come back to me when you actually know what you're talking about, because you factory working ass has never set foot inside a medical school nor has it actually taken the time to think these issues through outside of when you're spitting tobacco and fucking your sister and wondering why the blacks kept you from being a surgeon
Thanks for letting us know what caliber of argumentation to expect from /r/science mods.
Yeah this was an obvious fucking troll pretending to be a black guy. As a black man, the OBVIOUS tell was asking r/sneakers about fake jays and not even posting a pic, cmon son. Yeah "Jamal", the most stereotypical fucking black name ever. What next, Tyrone1488 going to r/law saying he got into Harvard without being able to read? Maybe ShaniquaDindu98 will come around and talk about how they ate a fried chicken eating contest.
That was absolutely retarded. But I think his other qualifications were good enough that he could have came on the letter and he'd still have gotten in.
That is some hilarious, quality trolling and it owns that it actually brought pro-affirmative-action defenders out of the woodwork to ACKSHUALLY the haters.
What anti AA ppl never understand is that if 100 people apply to Harvard, about 50 are qualified to do the coursework but only 5 can get in. So they need a rule to decide which of the 50 qualified people get in. Somehow the anti AA ppl assume without any critical reflection that the right rule is "highest test scores and gpa" when there's really no good reason to focus on that, especially when all the rich whites and asians are minmaxing that with a huge professional support network.
So picking some minorities that bring different perspectives, or at least didn't have access to all this extra help in maxing test scores and gpa and on the contrary faced a lot of difficulties and showed grit to get where they are seems like a pretty reasonable selection criterion.
And even if highest test scores highest gpa people are the "smartest" there's a huge missing logical leap to say these are the people who should get into Harvard.
if 100 people apply to Harvard, about 50 are qualified to do the coursework
So much this. Those who even bother to apply to Harvard are an incredibly self-selecting pool.
You'll have 10 knuckleheads whose advisor told them they needed a "reach" school (their advisor's idea of "reach" was probably in-state MD, but d'oh well).
Then you have a large number of driven and competent (if uninspired) workhorses who have solid grades and cookie-cutter C.V.s. And I'll just say it: a lot of the kids in this category are Asian-Americans whose parents have pushed them for this their entire lives, even though they might not necessarily be happy as doctors. I think this partly explains why AA appears to hurt Asians.
Then you get to the applicants--I'll call them the Chads--with 3.8+ GPAs and 520s on the MCAT who are first author on a publication or two and spent a summer researching the health problems affecting former child soldiers in Uganda or something, who will probably end up getting 15-20 interview invitations.
Ever wonder why interviews are so hard to land at the top schools? It's partly because the few Chads can charm every adcom in America. It's like the incel theory that Chad monopolizes les vaginas, except, unlike the incels, I'm right. And even if Harvard only looked at Chads, they'd have three applicants for every seat in the class.
So when interview season comes, Harvard wants to interview four people for every M1 they plan to enroll. So they invite every Chad, and then some of the better workhorses, and a few knuckleheads with interesting stories (the Iraq vet who went to college on the G.I. bill, the D-1 football star whose NFL dreams were ruined by a knee injury, Natalie Portman).
Let's say they offer half of the Chads seats. Then they wait to see how many of said Chads turn them down for Penn/Stanford/UCSF/JHU. Then some people in the lucky remaining slice get accepted--I actually think the knucklehead interviewees might have a slight advantage over the workhorses--and voila, Harvard has its entering class.
It's like the incel theory that Chad monopolizes les vaginas, except, unlike the incels, I'm right.
Just like incels the answer to why Chad monopolizes muh colleges is because you need to better yourself and stop being sucha shitty person. This is one case where the "incels" of society (incels in this case being knuckleheads as you call them) won.
What anti AA ppl never understand is that if 100 people apply to Harvard, about 50 are qualified to do the coursework but only 5 can get in. So they need a rule to decide which of the 50 qualified people get in.
Harvard isn't looking for people who can merely do the coursework. The same likely applies moreso to medical schools.
I don't know why you say they don't understand. I think they understand that that is your opinion. But many of them think that, your opinion is racist.
If having rich parents is the unfair factor, apply affirmative action on a socioeconomic basis instead of an ethnic one. Poor whites/asians bring about as much 'perspective' as blacks.
that's basically the same thing you realize? if you were to look at a SES scale or deprivation index you'd see that as a proportion of the population blacks are higher represented at the lower end of SES and higher end of dep and whats the inverse of that.
Okay, like. You understand the difference between actually measuring the thing you claim to care about, and measuring a proxy, yeah? Like, did you notice how you're saying "as a proportion", "higher represented", etc. and then equivocating with "basically the same thing"? I.e., you're observing a statistical trend and then making an essentialist claim based on that. I.e., being racist.
So you're telling me that the distribution of deprivation isn't higher in minorities and lower than whites? And the same for SES status? Not sure how that is racist when it's backed by statistical evidence, for example here's a NZ deprivation index score for NZ Maori from my med school lectures: http://i.imgur.com/en4fcKG.png
Is that racist? I don't have the one for SES handy but it's similar. So when you say 'you should do this based on SES!' what you're saying is that you should really just do the minority group because far, far more of them are distributed in lower SES environments. In an ideal world we'd have it so that high SES minorities might not get AA or something but clever accounting would just shut that down anyway, and then you move into stuff which you attributed to tribalism which shows that you're thinking about this on an incredibly shallow level not understanding that different ethnicities view healthcare in different ways and have different cultures which makes it easier for them to communicate with professionals from similar ethnicities, as well as the fact that it's show that a person from a certain ethnicity is more likely to return to a community of that ethnicity and thus bolster that community with evidence based medicine, which as one of it's core features, includes cultural and personal sensitivity.
But please, keep telling me how it's just racism and stuff because you're clearly on a whole different level here.
So you're telling me that the distribution of deprivation isn't higher in minorities and lower than whites? And the same for SES status?
No; I'm telling you that that is beside the point. You equivocated by saying that this therefore justifies discriminating on the basis of race when SES inequality is the thing you actually care about. You're arguing for using a proxy measure when the real measure is directly available. You are advocating for deliberately clouding an issue for political reasons - this, from an /r/science moderator.
So when you say 'you should do this based on SES!' what you're saying is that you should really just do the minority group
No; when you say "you should do this based on SES", what you're saying is you should do this based on SES, and if that happens to disproportionately benefit certain races depending on the country (as it presumably will), then so be it. This is fundamentally different from setting out to achieve "racial equity" or whatever you want to call it. It reflects a fundamentally different terminal value.
You don't get to claim that you want to help poor people, and then not actually "do this based on SES". That leads to excluding poor whites because you have dismissed their existence a priori. That is bad science and intellectually dishonest.
keep telling me how it's just racism and stuff because you're clearly on a whole different level here.
I'm on the level of not deliberately and willfully blinding myself with ideology. It's not that fucking hard.
I'm not blinded with ideology as you put it, it's interesting that the people always arguing against this are the people who didn't get into a medical school or people who just see AA and think it must be racism not the actual medical students/doctors who learn about why it's important. Minorities have a much higher distribution in low SES and deprivation than whites, so it's good to make an initiative to bring them up to level to also support their communities with minority doctors. Whites don't need that because they are already highly represented in higher SES/lower deprivation.
Does it suck that it excludes poor whites? Absolutely, but this isn't a perfect world and the systems are just trying to target particularly downtrodden areas/populations to give assistance to them.
Also my being a science mod has nothing to do with it, I just have that because of my bachelors - anyone with a BSc can get mod there.
You can keep arguing that this 'disproportionately' favours other races when in reality what it is aiming to do is bring down the disproportionality and bring them as close together as possible through equity
You're welcome to disagree, but you're going against global public health models here, not blind ideology.
it's interesting that the people always arguing against this are the people who didn't get into a medical school
I mean, I did engineering and never had any interest in medicine, and I had no trouble getting into one of the best universities in Canada, so whatever.
people who just see AA and think it must be racism
Because it is. By definition. It is institutional racism, even. It is discrimination on the basis of race, perpetrated by an institution. This is not up for debate.
Whites don't need that because they are already highly represented in higher SES/lower deprivation.
This is nonsense. People in low SES/high deprivation need representation. Simply having people of your own race be high SES does absolutely nothing to improve your own situation.
Race is beside the point and the only reason it's even being discussed is because people like you deliberately cloud the discussion by bringing it up for political, racist reasons.
Does it suck that it excludes poor whites? Absolutely, but this isn't a perfect world
Holy shit. You're the one deliberately arguing not to just "do this by SES", and then when it's pointed out to you that this has the consequence of neglecting people that you claim you agree should be helped, you shrug your shoulders even though you know exactly how to fix it.
That is actually, literally evil.
my being a science mod has nothing to do with it, I just have that because of my bachelors - anyone with a BSc can get mod there.
My point is that as a university-educated person with a science degree, you ought to hold yourself to a higher intellectual standard.
You can keep arguing that this 'disproportionately' favours other races when in reality what it is aiming to do
I like your phrasing here. Like, you understand that the aims of an initiative and its actual effects can differ, right? So you're not actually refuting me like this.
bring down the disproportionality
Disproportional to what? Your position is based on the premise that the demographics of, in this case, accepted med school candidates ought to match general population demographics WRT race and/or ethnicity (but curiously not WRT, for example, height, eye colour, hair colour, handedness...). The question is, why? Meanwhile, you claim that this is justified on the basis of lessening economic inequality. But if you actually wanted to lessen economic inequality, why not target it directly?
this is becoming way too much text for me to care about reading at 11pm. I'm just happy we live in a world where we can all have opinions. Take care friendo
So what you're saying is that like fully a quarter of Maori are above average on that metric. Do you really want to use a metric like "this person has a Maori name, and must therefore be low SES" when it has that high of an error rate and you also have the ability to just determine SES?
Do you really think universities/governments would be stupid enough to just rely on a persons name? SES and Deprivation indexes are much more complicated than their name alone.
Except you go on to admit that it's not the basically same, as it does unfairly exclude many of people your agenda claims to want to help solely on the basis of race.
You're the one deliberately arguing not to just "do this by SES", and then when it's pointed out to you that this has the consequence of neglecting people that you claim you agree should be helped, you shrug your shoulders even though you know exactly how to fix it.
If the real aim is to reduce the unfair nature of SES in med apps, target SES directly. It's intellectually dishonest to purposefully choose a less reliable metric and then act like the resulting damage was unavoidable.
(I'm a second year medical student; so that assumption about everyone disagreeing with you here being disgruntled rejects just isn't true. )
SES is also targetted btw, so people from low SES backgrounds do get a boost too. I forgot to mention that. AA basically aims to maintain a cross sectional representation that reflects the normal distribution of race/ethnicity as is seen within the population as a whole, not to over represent minorities.
about 50 are qualified to do the coursework but only 5 can get in.
I strongly doubt this, given that when I was in one of Canada's best universities I frequently felt like many of my colleagues who did get in weren't qualified to do the coursework.
But let's suppose it's true, the rule is not actually "highest test scores and GPA", the admissions staff are just looking for students to cross some minimum threshold that advertises "probably qualified to do the coursework" and judging on other criteria beyond that point, including using race as a "tie-breaker".
In that case, you need to explain why within each racial category, students still get accepted at higher rates the better their test scores and GPA are, without any apparent threshold, at places where affirmative action is implemented.
especially when all the rich whites and asians are minmaxing that stuff with a huge professional support network.
Yes, "professional support networks" enable you to "minmax" (what? what would the "dump stats" even be in your metaphor?) your "test scores and GPA". Sure. That makes sense. Are you for fucking real?
extra help
None of it works any better than actually just taking practice exams. At least, if you have the potential for a high score anyway.
are the "smartest" there's a huge missing logical leap to say these are the people who should get in
No, it's fucking self-evident. Like, the entire point of the system is to be that exclusive so that those who are nevertheless still included can get the best, most intellectually stimulating experience possible.
There are scores less black people applying to medical school than white people, and we need black physicians, so we get AA.
Context: white, Jewish female.
/u/neur_onymous do you also think it's an issue that Jews are 2% of America and yet ~25% of most Ivy league universities and overwhelmingly overrepresented in investment banks and top law firms?
If you've ever wondered why that whole Germany 1930s thing happened, this sort of behavior from your people is why. One rule for the Jews, another for the goyim.
See I know the guy well enough to know the sounds good girlfriend made getting laid. You are just some idiot who doesn't know how the diversity game is played. We took the mcat the say day. He didn't finish an entire section. He had a 7 on the old system.
THATS what you are trying to argue? You fucking idiot he had to prove his ancestry via a fucking birth certificate and his mothers home origin. Please stay away from med school.
I'm on the admissions committee at a US MD school and have never heard of any school ask for proof of minority status. It's so time prohibitive that I can't imagine any school doing so.
This is why you don't go to minority doctors unless they are NE Asian.
they still have to pass licensing exams you know. And if you can do that then you are fit to practice as a Dr. That's how the real world works, not just "well muh feelings tell me"
This isn't the difficult game you think this is. The only hard part is getting in. At the school in question they had a special program to help minorities pass thier exams.
My school also has programs to support minorities. But everyone has to pass to the same standard to graduate, they don't get given some magic ticket and come out as executioners on the other side as a result.
source please. Also I'm white and have had papers where they show the exams beforehand. Statistically on the particular paper I'm thinking of there was no dramatic increase in the marks obtained in that paper over other papers being taken at the same time because of the level of difficulty of that particular paper.
Holy shit, the responses in this thread are appalling. I've been working full time at a state psychiatric hospital for 9 months and WE NEED physicians that aren't white. Yeah, OP's circumstances would be much more "inspiring" if he were white, but who the fuck is so narrow-minded and self-righteous that they think it's justifiable to completely belittle someone's acceptance because of this. Furthermore, research has shown that MCAT scores of 28 have led to success on Step exams, so not sure why we're assuming OP is headed for failure. There are scores less black people applying to medical school than white people, and we need black physicians, so we get AA.
Context: white, Jewish female.
I'm not sure why anyone cares so much about physician GPA when the entirety of Kaiser Permanente's staff graduated from the Myanmar Revolutionary College of Health and Welding.
Affirmative Action is the reason why I only see Asian/White doctors. I'm not rolling the dice on De'Marcus being a good doctor over a diversity hire when my life is what's at stake.
111 comments
1 SnapshillBot 2017-08-27
Providing a Community Safe from TITrCJ's Sexual Advances Since October 2015.
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1 -not_a_mimic- 2017-08-27
NOTE: I remember that after the drama had gone on for a few days, this guy posted an update admitting that he had faked the whole thing. He's apparently deleted it, so you'll have to take me at my word.
But whatever: The real drama is in the comments he provoked.
1 BuffaloSobbers1 2017-08-27
Obvious bullshit. I know it's easier for some minority candidates, but not that easy.
1 MajorPrick 2017-08-27
Looks like he rage quit reddit over a year ago. I was really hoping to ping him and resuscitate the life back into this stale drama :(
1 -not_a_mimic- 2017-08-27
Don't worry, /r/PreMed is a reliable, underexplored drama well. There will come others.
1 MajorPrick 2017-08-27
I'll take your word and subscribe just to see for myself.
1 agareo 2017-08-27
I believe you. He claimed he majored in philosophy
1 nmx179 2017-08-27
This is why we need mayocide.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
wew lad. how is medical school working out for you /u/Adolphin_Hitler21
1 zahlman 2017-08-27
You're not Snappy, you can't fool me.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
Well. If we're talking about the grand scheme of things, removing all the blacks would make this country a much better place. Crime would plummet, our education ranking would jump and the economy wouldn't be strained by all of the gibs me dats. Are you willing to be the first to leave, for the grand scheme of things?
wew lad. how is medical school working out for you /u/Adolphin_Hitler21
1 -not_a_mimic- 2017-08-27
Someday you may be treated by a guy who posts lolicon pr0n to /r/yuri
1 HodorTheDoorHolder 2017-08-27
We both know that will never happen
1 -not_a_mimic- 2017-08-27
Insha'Allah
1 DannyLee90 2017-08-27
Oh ye of little faith...
1 Doomblaze 2017-08-27
>using reddit for pr0n
are you that normie?
1 holy_black_on_a_popo 2017-08-27
I mean, he's not wrong.
1 kane4life4ever 2017-08-27
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mJmxKCkxIU
1 SirTossAside 2017-08-27
He makes a fair point
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
god that thread is retarded. I'm willing to bet all the ones bitching are the ones too dumb to get into a school. They're acting like admission = passing the entire course. "BUT WHAT IF THEY'RE NOT SMART ENOUGH!!" they still have to pass the same tests as everyone else you dumb fucks
1 bleasehalb 2017-08-27
I'd say most of the black doctors/med students I know are from Africa(1st or 2nd gen) and those folks are easily comparable to the Asians in terms of qualifications.
1 deere442 2017-08-27
you understand there're a limited number of seats in a program, yes?
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
yes with a % of those being allocated for minorities.
1 deere442 2017-08-27
Bravo, now you've figured out why it's retarded
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
how is that retarded? Do you even understand what equity is? And understand that the best thing for a population is to bring everyone up to as similar level as possible. Do you understand that often minority groups seek out providers who are also from their group preferably? No seats are being taken from alpha god tier whiteys, their seats are already allocated, extra seats are added for these minority groups. Come back to me when you actually know what you're talking about, because you factory working ass has never set foot inside a medical school nor has it actually taken the time to think these issues through outside of when you're spitting tobacco and fucking your sister and wondering why the blacks kept you from being a surgeon
1 deere442 2017-08-27
wew good pasta. great effort, keep it up
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-08-27
Hey it's me, your retard.
1 Chavril 2017-08-27
Yeah? You think med schools added 68% extra spots for the womenz who are largely going to fuck off and become part-time gp's?
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
I have no idea what you're talking about, and I'm going to go out on a limb here and presume you don't know what you're talking about either
1 meatpuppet79 2017-08-27
Do you understand what merit is?
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
go on, explain what point you're going to try make about how those pesky minorities are stealing seats from all those extraordinary students
1 meatpuppet79 2017-08-27
Race or sex should never matter, I don't care what color my doctor is, but I do care if they were given a shortcut to their qualification for the sake of nice feelings and the luxury of being treated by a minority, and according are less good at their jobs than some other more academically competent individual.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
it's not so much a shortcut though, it just means they're threshold for MCAT/GPA is lower. It doesn't mean they're given a free ride in medical school too (though depending on where you are they may have additional support structures). They still have to be up to at least the minimum standard to practice as a Dr, and generally speaking that is a very high standard with a lot of supervision on top of that.
1 meatpuppet79 2017-08-27
It's a shortcut when an applicant is given a lower bar to entry to a limited field taking the place of a more suitable candidate simply because they identify as a minority. And then of course affirmative action does not end at selection, it's a feature throughout the academic path of a student.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
the thing is though you shouldn't look at it as though they are taking the seat of a more suitable candidate. Medical schools will have x number of seats and then y extra seats which are for minority groups. these are completely separate and (at least in my country) funded via extra funding initiatives from the government, community & university itself. So if you took one minority out, generally speaking that wouldn't open another seat for a non-minority because the funding/resource allocation is separate.
Hopefully that makes sense, it's getting late here and reading over my earlier posts I haven't been as clear as I'd like to be (when i was serious posting at least)
1 heavenlytoaster 2017-08-27
They have x+y seats
1 zahlman 2017-08-27
Yes. It is a fundamentally unfair concept not worth pursuing.
No. To understand that, it would have to be true. It is not true.
Sure. So does everyone, including white people. This is, of course, racist. Regardless of who is doing it. People are kinda shitty like that. Tribalism abounds. It is a millenia-old survival instinct that really did keep people alive in the past. Unfortunately, we evolve much more slowly than we progress as a society.
So you're saying there are more seats available in total, even after adjusting for population increases?
And who is paying for this?
Thanks for letting us know what caliber of argumentation to expect from /r/science mods.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
you're welcome fam
1 heavenlytoaster 2017-08-27
As a white guy, I seek out Asian medical professionals, they actually have to be the best by a lot.
1 heavenlytoaster 2017-08-27
As a white guy, I seek out Asian medical professionals, they actually have to be the best by a lot.
1 HATES_LEFTIST_FUCKS 2017-08-27
Yeah this was an obvious fucking troll pretending to be a black guy. As a black man, the OBVIOUS tell was asking r/sneakers about fake jays and not even posting a pic, cmon son. Yeah "Jamal", the most stereotypical fucking black name ever. What next, Tyrone1488 going to r/law saying he got into Harvard without being able to read? Maybe ShaniquaDindu98 will come around and talk about how they ate a fried chicken eating contest.
1 -not_a_mimic- 2017-08-27
Also, obscure reference, but the 417 in his name is the area code serving southwestern Missouri. That area is so fucking white, it's like the giant blob of mayo in a mayo-and-whitebread sandwich. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6a/4a/0f/6a4a0fb81f080cb78e6ddac02acd734f.png
1 CirqueDuFuder 2017-08-27
I never quite realize how fucking white America is when I spend all my time living in the black section.
1 wwyzzerdd 2017-08-27
Why are you poor?
1 IvankaTrumpIsMyWaifu 2017-08-27
you should really not do that
1 IvankaTrumpIsMyWaifu 2017-08-27
Ooh are we playing spot the prisons?
FOUND EM! http://imgur.com/MT89nBu
1 ironicshitpostr 2017-08-27
Hahaha, I bet the next thing is somebody getting into Stanford by typing "Black lives matter" over and over again for their essay lol
1 OnePercentOfMonster 2017-08-27
nah, you gotta keep it at least somewhat believable
1 backltrack 2017-08-27
That was absolutely retarded. But I think his other qualifications were good enough that he could have came on the letter and he'd still have gotten in.
1 ironicshitpostr 2017-08-27
Holy shit someone actually did that? I was joking
1 backltrack 2017-08-27
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/teen-accepted-stanford-after-writing-blacklivesmatter-100-times-application-n742586
1 skeetsurfing1984 2017-08-27
Yeah, the "anesthesiology, here I come!" kicker pretty much resolves all doubt. Isn't that supposed to be one of the most competitive specialties?
1 -not_a_mimic- 2017-08-27
Touche
1 EvanHarper 2017-08-27
That is some hilarious, quality trolling and it owns that it actually brought pro-affirmative-action defenders out of the woodwork to ACKSHUALLY the haters.
1 tomato_man123 2017-08-27
What anti AA ppl never understand is that if 100 people apply to Harvard, about 50 are qualified to do the coursework but only 5 can get in. So they need a rule to decide which of the 50 qualified people get in. Somehow the anti AA ppl assume without any critical reflection that the right rule is "highest test scores and gpa" when there's really no good reason to focus on that, especially when all the rich whites and asians are minmaxing that with a huge professional support network.
So picking some minorities that bring different perspectives, or at least didn't have access to all this extra help in maxing test scores and gpa and on the contrary faced a lot of difficulties and showed grit to get where they are seems like a pretty reasonable selection criterion.
And even if highest test scores highest gpa people are the "smartest" there's a huge missing logical leap to say these are the people who should get into Harvard.
1 -not_a_mimic- 2017-08-27
So much this. Those who even bother to apply to Harvard are an incredibly self-selecting pool.
You'll have 10 knuckleheads whose advisor told them they needed a "reach" school (their advisor's idea of "reach" was probably in-state MD, but d'oh well).
Then you have a large number of driven and competent (if uninspired) workhorses who have solid grades and cookie-cutter C.V.s. And I'll just say it: a lot of the kids in this category are Asian-Americans whose parents have pushed them for this their entire lives, even though they might not necessarily be happy as doctors. I think this partly explains why AA appears to hurt Asians.
Then you get to the applicants--I'll call them the Chads--with 3.8+ GPAs and 520s on the MCAT who are first author on a publication or two and spent a summer researching the health problems affecting former child soldiers in Uganda or something, who will probably end up getting 15-20 interview invitations.
Ever wonder why interviews are so hard to land at the top schools? It's partly because the few Chads can charm every adcom in America. It's like the incel theory that Chad monopolizes les vaginas, except, unlike the incels, I'm right. And even if Harvard only looked at Chads, they'd have three applicants for every seat in the class.
So when interview season comes, Harvard wants to interview four people for every M1 they plan to enroll. So they invite every Chad, and then some of the better workhorses, and a few knuckleheads with interesting stories (the Iraq vet who went to college on the G.I. bill, the D-1 football star whose NFL dreams were ruined by a knee injury, Natalie Portman).
Let's say they offer half of the Chads seats. Then they wait to see how many of said Chads turn them down for Penn/Stanford/UCSF/JHU. Then some people in the lucky remaining slice get accepted--I actually think the knucklehead interviewees might have a slight advantage over the workhorses--and voila, Harvard has its entering class.
Tl;Dr: This process is hard. Sack up.
1 BigOldWhiteDick 2017-08-27
Just like incels the answer to why Chad monopolizes muh colleges is because you need to better yourself and stop being sucha shitty person. This is one case where the "incels" of society (incels in this case being knuckleheads as you call them) won.
1 -not_a_mimic- 2017-08-27
You're assuming that when I described "Chad," I wasn't describing myself.
1 ManhattanTransFur 2017-08-27
This, but about monopolizing vaginas.
1 mtg_liebestod 2017-08-27
Harvard isn't looking for people who can merely do the coursework. The same likely applies moreso to medical schools.
1 elwombat 2017-08-27
I don't know why you say they don't understand. I think they understand that that is your opinion. But many of them think that, your opinion is racist.
1 thurdthrowaway 2017-08-27
If having rich parents is the unfair factor, apply affirmative action on a socioeconomic basis instead of an ethnic one. Poor whites/asians bring about as much 'perspective' as blacks.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
that's basically the same thing you realize? if you were to look at a SES scale or deprivation index you'd see that as a proportion of the population blacks are higher represented at the lower end of SES and higher end of dep and whats the inverse of that.
1 zahlman 2017-08-27
Okay, like. You understand the difference between actually measuring the thing you claim to care about, and measuring a proxy, yeah? Like, did you notice how you're saying "as a proportion", "higher represented", etc. and then equivocating with "basically the same thing"? I.e., you're observing a statistical trend and then making an essentialist claim based on that. I.e., being racist.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
Are you really going to try and lecture me on epidemiology now? Oh please do
1 zahlman 2017-08-27
No, I'm lecturing you on intellectual honesty. Because you lack it.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
oh. well if you said so then it must be true!
1 zahlman 2017-08-27
No; it's true because you made an equivocation, which I demonstrated.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
So you're telling me that the distribution of deprivation isn't higher in minorities and lower than whites? And the same for SES status? Not sure how that is racist when it's backed by statistical evidence, for example here's a NZ deprivation index score for NZ Maori from my med school lectures: http://i.imgur.com/en4fcKG.png
Is that racist? I don't have the one for SES handy but it's similar. So when you say 'you should do this based on SES!' what you're saying is that you should really just do the minority group because far, far more of them are distributed in lower SES environments. In an ideal world we'd have it so that high SES minorities might not get AA or something but clever accounting would just shut that down anyway, and then you move into stuff which you attributed to tribalism which shows that you're thinking about this on an incredibly shallow level not understanding that different ethnicities view healthcare in different ways and have different cultures which makes it easier for them to communicate with professionals from similar ethnicities, as well as the fact that it's show that a person from a certain ethnicity is more likely to return to a community of that ethnicity and thus bolster that community with evidence based medicine, which as one of it's core features, includes cultural and personal sensitivity.
But please, keep telling me how it's just racism and stuff because you're clearly on a whole different level here.
1 zahlman 2017-08-27
No; I'm telling you that that is beside the point. You equivocated by saying that this therefore justifies discriminating on the basis of race when SES inequality is the thing you actually care about. You're arguing for using a proxy measure when the real measure is directly available. You are advocating for deliberately clouding an issue for political reasons - this, from an /r/science moderator.
No; when you say "you should do this based on SES", what you're saying is you should do this based on SES, and if that happens to disproportionately benefit certain races depending on the country (as it presumably will), then so be it. This is fundamentally different from setting out to achieve "racial equity" or whatever you want to call it. It reflects a fundamentally different terminal value.
You don't get to claim that you want to help poor people, and then not actually "do this based on SES". That leads to excluding poor whites because you have dismissed their existence a priori. That is bad science and intellectually dishonest.
I'm on the level of not deliberately and willfully blinding myself with ideology. It's not that fucking hard.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
I'm not blinded with ideology as you put it, it's interesting that the people always arguing against this are the people who didn't get into a medical school or people who just see AA and think it must be racism not the actual medical students/doctors who learn about why it's important. Minorities have a much higher distribution in low SES and deprivation than whites, so it's good to make an initiative to bring them up to level to also support their communities with minority doctors. Whites don't need that because they are already highly represented in higher SES/lower deprivation.
Does it suck that it excludes poor whites? Absolutely, but this isn't a perfect world and the systems are just trying to target particularly downtrodden areas/populations to give assistance to them.
Also my being a science mod has nothing to do with it, I just have that because of my bachelors - anyone with a BSc can get mod there.
You can keep arguing that this 'disproportionately' favours other races when in reality what it is aiming to do is bring down the disproportionality and bring them as close together as possible through equity
You're welcome to disagree, but you're going against global public health models here, not blind ideology.
1 zahlman 2017-08-27
I mean, I did engineering and never had any interest in medicine, and I had no trouble getting into one of the best universities in Canada, so whatever.
Because it is. By definition. It is institutional racism, even. It is discrimination on the basis of race, perpetrated by an institution. This is not up for debate.
This is nonsense. People in low SES/high deprivation need representation. Simply having people of your own race be high SES does absolutely nothing to improve your own situation.
Race is beside the point and the only reason it's even being discussed is because people like you deliberately cloud the discussion by bringing it up for political, racist reasons.
Holy shit. You're the one deliberately arguing not to just "do this by SES", and then when it's pointed out to you that this has the consequence of neglecting people that you claim you agree should be helped, you shrug your shoulders even though you know exactly how to fix it.
That is actually, literally evil.
My point is that as a university-educated person with a science degree, you ought to hold yourself to a higher intellectual standard.
I like your phrasing here. Like, you understand that the aims of an initiative and its actual effects can differ, right? So you're not actually refuting me like this.
Disproportional to what? Your position is based on the premise that the demographics of, in this case, accepted med school candidates ought to match general population demographics WRT race and/or ethnicity (but curiously not WRT, for example, height, eye colour, hair colour, handedness...). The question is, why? Meanwhile, you claim that this is justified on the basis of lessening economic inequality. But if you actually wanted to lessen economic inequality, why not target it directly?
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
this is becoming way too much text for me to care about reading at 11pm. I'm just happy we live in a world where we can all have opinions. Take care friendo
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
Do you really think universities/governments would be stupid enough to just rely on a persons name? SES and Deprivation indexes are much more complicated than their name alone.
1 zahlman 2017-08-27
Wow, do you ever lack reading comprehension.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
yes
1 thurdthrowaway 2017-08-27
Except you go on to admit that it's not the basically same, as it does unfairly exclude many of people your agenda claims to want to help solely on the basis of race.
If the real aim is to reduce the unfair nature of SES in med apps, target SES directly. It's intellectually dishonest to purposefully choose a less reliable metric and then act like the resulting damage was unavoidable.
(I'm a second year medical student; so that assumption about everyone disagreeing with you here being disgruntled rejects just isn't true. )
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
SES is also targetted btw, so people from low SES backgrounds do get a boost too. I forgot to mention that. AA basically aims to maintain a cross sectional representation that reflects the normal distribution of race/ethnicity as is seen within the population as a whole, not to over represent minorities.
1 ca2co3 2017-08-27
That's a lie. Black students have significantly lower graduation rates at every single ivy league school. You can check the others too.
1 zahlman 2017-08-27
I strongly doubt this, given that when I was in one of Canada's best universities I frequently felt like many of my colleagues who did get in weren't qualified to do the coursework.
But let's suppose it's true, the rule is not actually "highest test scores and GPA", the admissions staff are just looking for students to cross some minimum threshold that advertises "probably qualified to do the coursework" and judging on other criteria beyond that point, including using race as a "tie-breaker".
In that case, you need to explain why within each racial category, students still get accepted at higher rates the better their test scores and GPA are, without any apparent threshold, at places where affirmative action is implemented.
Yes, "professional support networks" enable you to "minmax" (what? what would the "dump stats" even be in your metaphor?) your "test scores and GPA". Sure. That makes sense. Are you for fucking real?
None of it works any better than actually just taking practice exams. At least, if you have the potential for a high score anyway.
No, it's fucking self-evident. Like, the entire point of the system is to be that exclusive so that those who are nevertheless still included can get the best, most intellectually stimulating experience possible.
1 WeWuzKANG5 2017-08-27
What the fuck, two pre-med drama posts in one day, we need a trending section, hop on that shit /u/AnnArchist
1 newcomer_ts 2017-08-27
Hmmmm…..
1 kane4life4ever 2017-08-27
Why? It's not like blacks speak a different language? We definitely need physicians that deal with he good immigrants like Asians and South Asians.
1 SirTossAside 2017-08-27
/u/neur_onymous do you also think it's an issue that Jews are 2% of America and yet ~25% of most Ivy league universities and overwhelmingly overrepresented in investment banks and top law firms?
If you've ever wondered why that whole Germany 1930s thing happened, this sort of behavior from your people is why. One rule for the Jews, another for the goyim.
1 ikitomi 2017-08-27
I mean if his in major GPA was high, I think that'd be fine.
1 -not_a_mimic- 2017-08-27
He claimed to be a philosophy major.
1 jokes_on_you 2017-08-27
That doesn't factor in to med school admissions.
1 Chicup 2017-08-27
This is why you don't go to minority doctors unless they are NE Asian.
1 jokes_on_you 2017-08-27
this is 100% bs
1 Chicup 2017-08-27
See I know the guy well enough to know the sounds good girlfriend made getting laid. You are just some idiot who doesn't know how the diversity game is played. We took the mcat the say day. He didn't finish an entire section. He had a 7 on the old system.
1 jokes_on_you 2017-08-27
You are the one who thinks there is a fucking genealogy or DNA test on the application
1 Chicup 2017-08-27
THATS what you are trying to argue? You fucking idiot he had to prove his ancestry via a fucking birth certificate and his mothers home origin. Please stay away from med school.
1 jokes_on_you 2017-08-27
I'm on the admissions committee at a US MD school and have never heard of any school ask for proof of minority status. It's so time prohibitive that I can't imagine any school doing so.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
they still have to pass licensing exams you know. And if you can do that then you are fit to practice as a Dr. That's how the real world works, not just "well muh feelings tell me"
1 Chicup 2017-08-27
Lol my buddy got the lowest passing board score.
This isn't the difficult game you think this is. The only hard part is getting in. At the school in question they had a special program to help minorities pass thier exams.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
My school also has programs to support minorities. But everyone has to pass to the same standard to graduate, they don't get given some magic ticket and come out as executioners on the other side as a result.
1 Chicup 2017-08-27
My favorite "program" they had was one that let them see the exams prior to taking them. I want that to sink in.
1 clavulanate 2017-08-27
source please. Also I'm white and have had papers where they show the exams beforehand. Statistically on the particular paper I'm thinking of there was no dramatic increase in the marks obtained in that paper over other papers being taken at the same time because of the level of difficulty of that particular paper.
1 Somenakedguy 2017-08-27
Why would that sink in when the source is some retard on reddit and no one believes it
1 444455555666666 2017-08-27
when u know its a troll but you're so autistic you seriouspost anyway
1 frozenflameinthewind 2017-08-27
Damn! If this how people got about race two years ago with Obama still in power, I can just imagine how they would be today
1 IntellectualEuphoria 2017-08-27
I love this new type of drama.
1 zahlman 2017-08-27
The thread is also 2 years old.
1 IntellectualEuphoria 2017-08-27
Oh I didn't notice that lol.
1 MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-08-27
That post makes bait shops jealous.
1 Peetrius 2017-08-27
Holy shit, the responses in this thread are appalling. I've been working full time at a state psychiatric hospital for 9 months and WE NEED physicians that aren't white. Yeah, OP's circumstances would be much more "inspiring" if he were white, but who the fuck is so narrow-minded and self-righteous that they think it's justifiable to completely belittle someone's acceptance because of this. Furthermore, research has shown that MCAT scores of 28 have led to success on Step exams, so not sure why we're assuming OP is headed for failure. There are scores less black people applying to medical school than white people, and we need black physicians, so we get AA. Context: white, Jewish female.
1 -not_a_mimic- 2017-08-27
Rabbi, is this pasta kosher?
1 ManhattanTransFur 2017-08-27
I'm not sure why anyone cares so much about physician GPA when the entirety of Kaiser Permanente's staff graduated from the Myanmar Revolutionary College of Health and Welding.
1 JohnGalt316 2017-08-27
you should have seen the med school acceptance letters my friend had. every program wants to be seen as diverse.
1 zahlman 2017-08-27
... With a fetish.
1 WillTrigger4Upvotes 2017-08-27
Affirmative Action is the reason why I only see Asian/White doctors. I'm not rolling the dice on De'Marcus being a good doctor over a diversity hire when my life is what's at stake.
1 -not_a_mimic- 2017-08-27
Statistically, Nigerians are the highest achievers of them all though.
1 ManhattanTransFur 2017-08-27
Your life isn't at stake when you are going in for a flu shot and a re-up on your Valium which is like 90% of medicine.