The school's investigation? Entire schools are pretending to be fucking Batman now?
This.
A school/University shouldn't be investigating anything that didn't happen on school grounds. Likewise, your behavior off of school grounds shouldn't affect your status at school/university unless/until you are found guilty of a crime.
Way too many schools these days are playing judge, jury, and executioner and ruining young people's lives over something the school shouldn't have had a say in to begin with.
Where are these schools investigating shit? Back when I was in high school there was another nearby high school that had a group of kids that would steal from students at the school and ransom the things back. They even jumped kids from other schools and no one did shit. Everyone knew who was doing it but the school did jack shit with all the reports until the kids got themselves ambushed and sent to the hospital.
No one snitched though, those fuckers deserved the busted kneecaps, broken fingers and missing teeth. Funny how they didn't ransom shit after that.
/u/Jonluw why are you claiming people are missing the commenter's point when the guy you're defending is being ignorant and inventing strawmen to argue his point?
Looks like that whole thread has spiralled out of control since I checked in last. I can't be bothered to read all of that, but I can imagine /u/PoopMandala lost their cool, as one may when people start piling on you with the lack of mutual understanding which was apparent in the start of that debate.
The reason I say people are missing the point is as follows:
The discussion started by someone posting the Simpsons quote, "please think of the children", typically employed as a comment on using moral hysteria to justify intrusion on privacy and personal liberties. A reasonably fitting comment considering the grotesque way the school handled the incident in question. But the comment's sarcasm also seems to imply the school should not have done anything. PoopMandala comments, and tries to make the point that although the comment is relevant, it is not correct in the literal sense: The school really should think of the children. It should take measures to figure out how and why it happened and to avoid this kind of thing happening in the future. Now, whether the school in question was going about this the right way (they were not), is irrelevant. The point is about what schools ought to do in a situation like this, and it is quite obvious the answer is not "report to the police and move on".
At this point, basically every reply PoopMandala receives is something to the tune of "the school should hand the investigation over to the police, dummy". Missing the point, exhibit A:
The school investigating events does not mean that the police are not going to do their own investigation, or that the school won't report the case to the police. These are two different kinds of investigation, with completely different goals. The police investigation is concerned with identifying any criminal acts which may have occurred, and apprehending the culprit(s). The school investigation should be concerned with uncovering any issues that are present in the school's social environment and system that have let such a thing happen. No one is saying the school should be trying to collect evidence to "bring the bully to justice" like some kind if island society police force. The school should be trying to collect evidence of what exactly went down, and use that evidence to improve their policies.
Misunderstanding, exhibit B:
Are you suggesting schools ignore all bullying and just forward it all to the police?
When it involves attempted suicide? Yes
You can't be seriously suggesting that.
Yes, I am seriously suggesting that if a school allows bullying to the point the victim wants to die the police should be involved.
See what happened there? I'm not sure if this is a misunderstanding or just moving the goal posts, but if you didn't catch it, I'll point it out. It's an example of what I stated above.
PoopMandala asks if the other poster really thinks the school should just drop the matter and leave it to the police. The other user says yes. Incredulous reply. Restatement from the other user: They believe that yes, indeed, when someone attempts suicide due to bullying, the police should get involved. Here you see either a classic moving of the goal posts, or just an inability to understand what PoopMandala is saying. The other user seems to genuinely think that PoopMandala is of the opinion that the school should handle the matter alone, and that the police should not get involved. PoopMandala tries to reiterate that the school needs to take measures to handle its problem with bullying, to which the reply is that the time to do that was before someone attempted suicide. Which is just so astoundingly retarded I can't believe it. If you're going to argue that the school's inability to pick up on the issue before the attempted suicide means there is no use in trying to improve the situation, then you need to argue for closing down the school. Using it as an argument that the school should not try to do anything about their bullying problem makes no sense. "Oh hey, one of my cups fell off my rickety shelf. Guess there's no point in trying to repair the shelf now". If anything the event highlights that it is more important than ever for the school to take a serious look at conditions in the student body and its approach to bullying.
Misunderstanding, exhibit C:
If it gets that serious, the correct response isn't to make the school the NSA and give them the power to control so much
Here's someone thinking PoopMandala is advocating the actions of the school in question, i.e., breaking into kids' social media accounts. As I mentioned above, saying that the school should do something when a student attempts suicide is not the same as saying what this particular school did was right. PoopMandala mentions quite explicitly that they do not approve of the school's actions, but that they also do not approve of this attitude that the school should just hand the case to the police and let them deal with it. The police is concerned with individual justice. A police investigation into an isolated case isn't a sufficient course of action to treat the problems of bullying at a school.
I'm getting tired now, but basically I haven't read a single response that actually gets the point and replies to it with an insightful counterpoint. It's just wave after wave of morons raging at the mirage of what it is they believe PoopMandala is saying.
Listen man if you looked at that thread you would see the reason why people were saying the schools should drop the investigation all together. In these events people are worried the school will look to save their own butts first and not take proper care of the students. You can see this behavior when there is outcry over campuses' internal "investigation" of sexual assault. It's not that people want the schools to do nothing about these serious issues, it's that they feel the officials are out of their depth and likely to act to protect themselves over actually helping the students.
It is a very valid argument that in the American school system where many school districts are underfunded and understaffed such a comprehensive internal overhaul of policy will not be effective whatsoever. You and PoopMan have some really idealistic notions of what school districts are able to accomplish on their own when it comes to extremely serious matters like this. You see OP talking about the school demanding the student's private account info like a bunch of mall cops? That's gonna be the level of competence we see from such internal "improvement" campaigns across the board. If they want to improve their systems it should be done from a way higher level where experts can draw conclusions and then implement policy top down. Just arguing the school should be allowed to "take measures" is way too vague and open to abuse by individual districts who don't have experience dealing with these issues.
Again, no one is saying the school in question is going about this in the right way. As you say, the school is probably just trying to save its image or find a scapegoat.
There are, however, a lot of people saying the school should do nothing other than report incidents to the police. Now, your opinion that individual schools are not competent to tend to their own social environment, and that such changes should be handled by an entity higher up in the bureaucratic ladder is a reasonable one which is based on actually understanding the point of the original comment: i.e., it is an opinion which it is possible to discuss in a productive manner. Personally I disagree: I don't think larger state entities are fit to manage the social environments at individual schools. In any case, no one in that thread as far as I can see has made such a point. If they did, it would be possible to have a discussion of substance. However, they are all either accusing PoopMandala of not wanting the police involved at all, or of approving of the school's actions.
8 comments
1 SnapshillBot 2017-10-16
The people involved here probably don't even respect bussy all that much.
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1 botchlings 2017-10-16
This.
A school/University shouldn't be investigating anything that didn't happen on school grounds. Likewise, your behavior off of school grounds shouldn't affect your status at school/university unless/until you are found guilty of a crime.
Way too many schools these days are playing judge, jury, and executioner and ruining young people's lives over something the school shouldn't have had a say in to begin with.
1 MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-10-16
Where are these schools investigating shit? Back when I was in high school there was another nearby high school that had a group of kids that would steal from students at the school and ransom the things back. They even jumped kids from other schools and no one did shit. Everyone knew who was doing it but the school did jack shit with all the reports until the kids got themselves ambushed and sent to the hospital.
No one snitched though, those fuckers deserved the busted kneecaps, broken fingers and missing teeth. Funny how they didn't ransom shit after that.
1 Ennui2778 2017-10-16
GET A WARRANT, YOU FAT FUCK.
1 weniscommander 2017-10-16
/u/Jonluw why are you claiming people are missing the commenter's point when the guy you're defending is being ignorant and inventing strawmen to argue his point?
1 Jonluw 2017-10-16
Looks like that whole thread has spiralled out of control since I checked in last. I can't be bothered to read all of that, but I can imagine /u/PoopMandala lost their cool, as one may when people start piling on you with the lack of mutual understanding which was apparent in the start of that debate.
The reason I say people are missing the point is as follows:
The discussion started by someone posting the Simpsons quote, "please think of the children", typically employed as a comment on using moral hysteria to justify intrusion on privacy and personal liberties. A reasonably fitting comment considering the grotesque way the school handled the incident in question. But the comment's sarcasm also seems to imply the school should not have done anything. PoopMandala comments, and tries to make the point that although the comment is relevant, it is not correct in the literal sense: The school really should think of the children. It should take measures to figure out how and why it happened and to avoid this kind of thing happening in the future. Now, whether the school in question was going about this the right way (they were not), is irrelevant. The point is about what schools ought to do in a situation like this, and it is quite obvious the answer is not "report to the police and move on".
At this point, basically every reply PoopMandala receives is something to the tune of "the school should hand the investigation over to the police, dummy". Missing the point, exhibit A:
The school investigating events does not mean that the police are not going to do their own investigation, or that the school won't report the case to the police. These are two different kinds of investigation, with completely different goals. The police investigation is concerned with identifying any criminal acts which may have occurred, and apprehending the culprit(s). The school investigation should be concerned with uncovering any issues that are present in the school's social environment and system that have let such a thing happen. No one is saying the school should be trying to collect evidence to "bring the bully to justice" like some kind if island society police force. The school should be trying to collect evidence of what exactly went down, and use that evidence to improve their policies.
Misunderstanding, exhibit B:
See what happened there? I'm not sure if this is a misunderstanding or just moving the goal posts, but if you didn't catch it, I'll point it out. It's an example of what I stated above.
PoopMandala asks if the other poster really thinks the school should just drop the matter and leave it to the police. The other user says yes. Incredulous reply. Restatement from the other user: They believe that yes, indeed, when someone attempts suicide due to bullying, the police should get involved. Here you see either a classic moving of the goal posts, or just an inability to understand what PoopMandala is saying. The other user seems to genuinely think that PoopMandala is of the opinion that the school should handle the matter alone, and that the police should not get involved. PoopMandala tries to reiterate that the school needs to take measures to handle its problem with bullying, to which the reply is that the time to do that was before someone attempted suicide. Which is just so astoundingly retarded I can't believe it. If you're going to argue that the school's inability to pick up on the issue before the attempted suicide means there is no use in trying to improve the situation, then you need to argue for closing down the school. Using it as an argument that the school should not try to do anything about their bullying problem makes no sense. "Oh hey, one of my cups fell off my rickety shelf. Guess there's no point in trying to repair the shelf now". If anything the event highlights that it is more important than ever for the school to take a serious look at conditions in the student body and its approach to bullying.
Misunderstanding, exhibit C:
Here's someone thinking PoopMandala is advocating the actions of the school in question, i.e., breaking into kids' social media accounts. As I mentioned above, saying that the school should do something when a student attempts suicide is not the same as saying what this particular school did was right. PoopMandala mentions quite explicitly that they do not approve of the school's actions, but that they also do not approve of this attitude that the school should just hand the case to the police and let them deal with it. The police is concerned with individual justice. A police investigation into an isolated case isn't a sufficient course of action to treat the problems of bullying at a school.
I'm getting tired now, but basically I haven't read a single response that actually gets the point and replies to it with an insightful counterpoint. It's just wave after wave of morons raging at the mirage of what it is they believe PoopMandala is saying.
1 weniscommander 2017-10-16
Listen man if you looked at that thread you would see the reason why people were saying the schools should drop the investigation all together. In these events people are worried the school will look to save their own butts first and not take proper care of the students. You can see this behavior when there is outcry over campuses' internal "investigation" of sexual assault. It's not that people want the schools to do nothing about these serious issues, it's that they feel the officials are out of their depth and likely to act to protect themselves over actually helping the students.
It is a very valid argument that in the American school system where many school districts are underfunded and understaffed such a comprehensive internal overhaul of policy will not be effective whatsoever. You and PoopMan have some really idealistic notions of what school districts are able to accomplish on their own when it comes to extremely serious matters like this. You see OP talking about the school demanding the student's private account info like a bunch of mall cops? That's gonna be the level of competence we see from such internal "improvement" campaigns across the board. If they want to improve their systems it should be done from a way higher level where experts can draw conclusions and then implement policy top down. Just arguing the school should be allowed to "take measures" is way too vague and open to abuse by individual districts who don't have experience dealing with these issues.
1 Jonluw 2017-10-16
Again, no one is saying the school in question is going about this in the right way. As you say, the school is probably just trying to save its image or find a scapegoat.
There are, however, a lot of people saying the school should do nothing other than report incidents to the police. Now, your opinion that individual schools are not competent to tend to their own social environment, and that such changes should be handled by an entity higher up in the bureaucratic ladder is a reasonable one which is based on actually understanding the point of the original comment: i.e., it is an opinion which it is possible to discuss in a productive manner. Personally I disagree: I don't think larger state entities are fit to manage the social environments at individual schools. In any case, no one in that thread as far as I can see has made such a point. If they did, it would be possible to have a discussion of substance. However, they are all either accusing PoopMandala of not wanting the police involved at all, or of approving of the school's actions.