the inside story on you young facists is a lot of you ended up in shock humour/lonely dude forums that nazi recruiters joined its not a fucking puzzle all the history is on the sites there you crossed ur nerdy hobbies with ur nerdy resentment Bunch fucking nerds with your dipshit teenage beefs probably started with a resentment of woman who won't speak to you and now you think you have become POl radicalized So how did it happen how did you become a fucking nazi? A bunch of real nazis whisper poison in your ears while becoming your only community - your only "friends" And they used multiples levels to make irony and bigotry more acceptable by drowning it in "oh were just joking" So you combine all this w/ capitalising on isolated nerd dude resentment & even deeper isolation bam nazi you can talk to any former "chan" boy & they can tell you how it went from "shitty shock humour" to "whites supremacist recruitment" The only "lol only norms care about hurting others attitude" + the general nerdy male resentment of these communities Its prime fertile ground for actual nazis to grow. People talk about pol, but you need to see the various communities converge R9k's "why won't woman fuck me" bs "anything goes & anyone who gets mad is just a normie" vs endless outbursts of anger at everything Pol here becomes less of an isolated phenomenon and more of a natural end point for all these circles crashing into one another & pol, also being its own thing menas it it rolled back into those communities amplifying your worst aspect then roll it back into pol So essentially you have an online pressure cooker to turn you typical teenage nerdy bullshit into honest to god facism
Pretty good, but not enough praise for Ali, you have to get on the level of these guys, who thought that Ali was supposed to be the last messenger, but Jibril (Gabriel), fucked it up and accidentally passed on the message to Muhammad.
Or even better, these guys who thought that Ali was literally God and Muhammad was the messenger of Ali, but Muhammad decided to preach his own message instead of calling the people to Ali.
The Ghurabiyya Shi‘a were a ghulāt sect of Shi‘a Islam. They were the best known of a few extremist Shi‘a sects from the Middle Ages who adopted the belief that the angel Jibra’il (Gabriel) was mistaken when passing on the prophecy to Muhammad instead of Ali.
Dhammiya
The Dhammiyya Shia was a Ghulat sect of Islam. The name “Dhammiyya” was derived from the Arabic word “dhamm” (i.e. “blame”). Therefore, the Arabic name “Dhammiyya” is translated as “blamers.” The name “blamers” was used for the Dhammiyya Shia because they believed that Ali was God and Muhammad was his prophet and messinger and that Muhammad was to be blamed because he was sent by Ali to call the people to Ali, but called them to himself instead.
aren't angels supposed to be perfect and free from error?
Yep, pretty much no one following Islam would consider these people Muslims.
I find it funny that the regular declaration of faith goes like "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad the messenger of Allah" when this sect would go "There is no God but Ali, and Muhammad is the messenger of Ali".
Coincidentally, it's not uncommon to find Sunnis calling Shia mushrikeen (people who associate partners to Allah, for example the polytheists during the time of the prophet Muhammad) due to the differences between the sects.
One more thing, so I've asked my muslim friends this that what was muhammad's religion before Islam? His father's name was "abdullah" so certainly the word for God didn't came with Islam and isn't exclusive to it. They said there was no other prophet between Jesus and muhammad but i highly doubt he was a Christian given his illiteracy and the area where he resided. I've heard from them that he used to pray even before being a prophet in a cave so is there any consensus about his religion? Was he a polytheist like Arabs back then?
Well, given that Prophets are protected from committing major sin, it couldn't have been something considered shirk like the pagan Arabs were doing (polytheism). Muslims also believe that the message of Jesus (Christianity) was corrupted, there's no way he was a Christian either. I don't think there's a definite answer to which religion he used to follow, there is a mention that he used to "worship Allah" though in a hadith (just quoting the relevant portion, because the whole thing is a bit long):
Narrated Aisha:
The commencement (of the Divine Inspiration) to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was in the form of true dreams in his sleep, for he never had a dream but it turned out to be true and clear as the bright daylight. Then he began to like seclusions, so he used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship Allah continuously for many nights before going back to his family to take the necessary provision (of food) for the stay. (Sahih Bukhari)
That's from one of the hadiths covering how the Qur'an was first revealed to him.
His father's name was "abdullah" so certainly the word for God didn't came with Islam and isn't exclusive to it.
Yeah, the polytheistic Arabs also believed in Allah, even before Islam. Even though Muslims believe that the message of Jesus was corrupted by the people, the prophet's dad is going to Hell:
Anas reported:
Verily, a person said: Messenger of Allah, where is my father? He said: (He) is in the Fire. When he turned away, he (the Holy Prophet) called him and said: Verily my father and your father are in the Fire. (Sahih Muslim)
Kind of weird, don't you think? There was no true, "uncorrupted" message for him to follow.
there was no other prophet between Jesus and muhammad
I'm not sure if this is true, if we order the prophets and messengers whose names we know from Islamic scripture in order, we'll have Jesus right before Muhammad, but according to Islam, there are others who we don't know about.
The last book revealed from Allah before the Qur'an that we know about is the Gospel from Jesus, but I don't think that necessarily means that no others were revealed between them.
Kind of weird, don't you think? There was no true, "uncorrupted" message for him to follow.
But isn't there a different rule that if you were stuck in such a shithole where you couldn't receive the true message of God (through a prophet or humans) then you're exempt from a lot of stuff that ordinary humans will have to answer for? Where mo' and his dad live was a backwards shithole soooo? Am was I misled about this exemption and that person was lying out of his ass lol?
Surely you don't hold the tribes in Amazon or the North Sentinel Islanders living on an island South of India in the Indian Ocean who are one of the last people to remain I contacted by modern day human (there were some attempts but it ended up with those islanders getting sick and dying from diseases which we modern day humans carry with us lmao)
So there's no exception to the rule? Like there's exception for uneducated deaf and dumb people, other mentally challenged humans?
The Sentinelese (also called the Sentineli or North Sentinel Islanders) are the indigenous people of North Sentinel Island in the Andaman Islands of India. One of the Andamanese peoples, they resist contact with the outside world, and are among the last people to remain virtually untouched and uncontacted by modern civilisation.
The Sentinelese maintain an essentially hunter-gatherer society subsisting through hunting, fishing, and collecting wild plants. There is no evidence of either agricultural practices or methods of producing fire.
But isn't there a different rule that if you were stuck in such a shithole where you couldn't receive the true message of God (through a prophet or humans) then you're exempt from a lot of stuff that ordinary humans will have to answer for? Where mo' and his dad lived was a backwards shithole soooo? Or was I misled about this exemption and that person was lying out of his ass lol?
It's true, if the message doesn't reach you for one reason or another, then you're supposed to be tested on the Day of Judgment, which is why I find it weird that Muhammad's dad is going to Hell. The way this is justified is the claim that the message of the past prophets was known to these people, but Islam also claims these messages were corrupted by its followers so they were no longer valid, and Islam became the one true religion.
So there's no exception to the rule? Like there's an exception for deaf and dumb people, other mentally challenged humans?
These are actually specifically mentioned:
The Prophet of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between the time of ‘Eesaa (Jesus, upon whom be peace) and the time of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)). The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.”
This is taken to mean that if the person in question obeys the command of Allah, they go to Paradise, and if they don't, then they go to Hell.
Thank you for all of this. I'm surely taking your time and if you don't want to reply it's completely fine by me. Please!
He will accept their promises of obedience,
Ok umm
then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.”
So what I'm getting from this is that God actually sends all 4 of them to Hell (Fire) but this part
By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.”
suggests to me that God already knows, in case they weren't handicapped/were at a disadvantage, which one of these people would have followed the message of God if their circumstances were different.
I'm it's "God" we're talking about so he is kinda like the master programmer than know what scenario will lead to what kind of results.
So those who would have followed God in this world if they were "Normal" will not feel the pain of fire of hell (and they will ultimately enter heaven?)
But the problem is that, let's suppose, the old man if he had received the message in his youth, would turn out to be a non believer and since in this alternate reality (which still uses the same variables like his personality, thinking morality etc), he will be a non believer hence he will get punished for sin that would have if his circumstances were normal??
That's really fucked up. That's like punishing me for a genocide that I would have committed if I were ever elected as a head of state, then turning into a dictator just because of my genocidal tendencies.
It's like punishing people for sins they are likely to commit but haven't because of specific circumstances. HOLY SHIT LMAOOOOO
is this making any sense? or am i just rambling like a fucking retard?
Actually I misinterpreted that last paragraph you quoted i your comment. So I mean who would, in their right mind disobey God on Judgment day you know? Like of course these 4 guys are gonna obey him hence will enter heaven. Or am I still reading this wrong :D
Well, actually, I think your original comment was more accurate and kind of spot-on.
I'll try to complete what I remember from memory:
This makes complete sense, it's one of the things that makes me go "what the fuck" about the religion.
this part suggests to me that God already knows, in case they weren't handicapped/were at a disadvantage, which one of these people would have followed the message of God if their circumstances were different.
I'm it's "God" we're talking about so he is kinda like the master programmer than know what scenario will lead to what kind of results.
Yep, he already knows what they're going to choose.
God in Islam (I don't know about other religions, but I assume for the other Abrahamic religions, it's the same) is omnipotent and omniscient (that is, all-powerful and all-knowing). He knows every action you're going to take before you're even born—he always knew. Everything that was going to happen was written in something called "The Preserved Tablet." I always found this hard to reconcile with free will.
In addition to that, it's specifically mentioned that whether you're going to Hell or not is set:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), the truthful and truly-inspired, said, "Each one of you collected in the womb of his mother for forty days, and then turns into a clot for an equal period (of forty days) and turns into a piece of flesh for a similar period (of forty days) and then Allah sends an angel and orders him to write four things, i.e., his provision, his age, and whether he will be of the wretched or the blessed (in the Hereafter). Then the soul is breathed into him. And by Allah, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which Allah has ordered the angel to write) precedes, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing precedes and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it." (Sahih Bukhari)
Another one:
'A'isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar (people originally living in Medinah that helped out the refugees from Makkah). She said:
Allah's Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for he committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: 'A'isha, it may be otherwise, because God created the people for Paradise and he created them for it (Paradise) while they were yet in their father's loins, and created those who are to go to Hell, he created them for it (Hell) while they were yet in their father's loins. (Sahih Muslim)
This one I find pretty interesting, because Muslims also say that Muslim children (the children of kuffar are a different matter with differing opinions) go to Heaven by default. Just another contradiction, I guess.
So those who would have followed God in this world if they were "Normal" will not feel the pain of fire of hell (and they will ultimately enter heaven?)
Well, I guess so, the person's ultimate destiny is already written before they even existed, so yeah.
You mentioned something else which I don't remember exactly, but it reminded me strongly about the story of Khader, I'll just tell you his story:
Someone one day asks Moses "Who's the most knowledgeable from the people?" and he says that he (Moses) is. Allah wanted to teach him a lesson because he said that, so he sends him on a journey to meet this guy called al-Khader (a bunch of stuff happens during the journey, but it's not really relevant to this), someone who Allah has given knowledge.
So he finally meets al-Khader, and Moses asks him if he can follow him around to learn from him. Al-Khader tells him "You're not going to be able to handle me." Moses says "C'mon pls" and Al-Khader relents, but says "You can't ask me about anything until I tell you myself." Moses agrees, and they set out.
They start walking around and eventually come across a ship, and the sailors let them on the ship, so they hitchhike on it. After getting on, al-Khader makes a hole in the ship. Moses says "What the fuck, you want to drown everyone? That's fucked up." Al-Khader says "I thought you were going to shut up?" Moses says "My bad", they eventually reach land and get off. Moses has one strike so far.
(This is the related incident) After getting off, they start walking on the shore, and they come across a bunch of kids playing with each other. Al-Khader takes one of the kids and beheads him. Understandably, Moses goes "Dude, wtf?" again, Al-Khader reminds him that he said he was going to shut up (strike two). Moses apologizes, and says if I do it again, I'll stop following you.
They keep going and come to a tow, where they ask people for food, but the people of the town refuse. They walk around until they find a wall lying in disrepair, and Al-Khader fixes the wall. Moses asks him "Why'd you fix the wall, the people of the town didn't even want to feed us." Al-Khader says "That's strike three, but before I leave, I'll explain everything I did."
The reason he made a hole in the ship is because there was a king going around taking control of the ships, and the king wouldn't want a messed up ship.
The reason he killed the kid is because they didn't want the kid to be a problem for his parents through disbelief.
More explanation:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
that Ubayy bin Ka'b narrated that the Prophet (ﷺ) said: "The boy that Al-Khader killed was destined to be a disbeliever the day he was created." (Jami' At-Tirmidhi)
...So far as the boy is concerned, he has been, by very nature, an unbeliever, whereas his parents loved him very much. Had he grown up he would have involved them in wrongdoing and unbelief, so we wished that their Lord should give them in its place one better in purity and close to mercy. (Sahih Muslim)
Ubayy b. Ka'b reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said:
The young man whom Al-Khader killed was a non-believer by his very nature and had he survived he would have involved his parents in defiance and unbelief. (Sahih Muslim)
So pretty much, he was destined to be a kafir and his parents might've gotten involved in kufr (disbelief) so he killed him, and wanted their parents to try and have a better child (reroll).
The reason he fixed the wall is because it belonged to two orphan kids, and the wall had some treasure that belonged to them under it.
Sorry I deleted the original comment. I'll give you the TLDR. Also I haven't read this comment if yours. After typing this I'll read and reply.
So after reading that last quote it seemed to me that
God tells them to enter hell
Some will not feel the pain of that fire
That's because if these people weren't disadvantaged by their handicaps, they would've followed God and his message.
Some will feel pain because for them it's the opposite. If they were "normal" in an alternate life. They'd be non believers hence hell.
Also this means God is punishing people for sins they WOULD HAVE committed if they have different scenarios. Like me being punished for a genocide I never committed but I WOULD HAVE committed if I ever was elected Head of State turned dictator.
Basically punishing someone for possible sins? That's a slippery slope tbh and can't only apply to deaf/dumb etc people about their faith as a whole.
That's pretty absurd if you ask me. Like I've read the Quran too and I just don't feel that's what i felt and got from it.
Plus on a very seperate topic. A lot of Muslims talk about eternal hell but as far as i know, that's not a thing (I can be completely wrong though)
Plus even as GOD (unless you break the rule you made yourself) you can't justify eternally punishing someone for a sin that was committed for a limited amount of time.
Also this means God is punishing people for sins they WOULD HAVE committed if they have different scenarios. Like me being punished for a genocide I never committed but I WOULD HAVE committed if I ever was elected Head of State turned dictator.
Basically punishing someone for possible sins? That's a slippery slope tbh and can't only apply to deaf/dumb etc people about their faith as a whole.
Ah yeah, this was what reminded me about the story of Al-Khader.
That's pretty absurd if you ask me. Like I've read the Quran too and I just don't feel that's what i felt and got from it.
A lot of stuff isn't in the Qur'an, although the story of Al-Khader is actually mentioned in it, but the hadiths go more in depth about it. It's interesting that you've read the (whole?) Qur'an though, I feel like most Muslims haven't actually read it (in a language they understand).
Plus on a very seperate topic. A lot of Muslims talk about eternal hell but as far as i know, that's not a thing (I can be completely wrong though)
I've come across a few people who believe that Hell isn't eternal (I don't know their arguments for it), but the majority of Muslims believe that hell is eternal for non-Muslims (Muslims who go to hell for their sins will be taken out of it and put in Paradise after being punished for however long Allah thinks is appropriate). These are a couple of related verses that I can recall:
Indeed, Allah has cursed the disbelievers and prepared for them a Blaze. Abiding therein forever, they will not find a protector or a helper. (33:64-65)
But [I have for you] only notification from Allah, and His messages." And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger - then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; they will abide therein forever. (72:23)
On this:
Plus even as GOD (unless you break the rule you made yourself) you can't justify eternally punishing someone for a sin that was committed for a limited amount of time.
I'm not sure what you mean, God is held to be inherently always right and just, it might not make sense to us, but God is the most just, knows what's right, etc.
Life in this world is considered a test, those who pass get Paradise forever, and those who disbelieve get Hell forever.
Thanks! Religion is a difficult thing and certainly not something that you can be passive about without misleading yourself. These things can be absolutely crazy lol.
Oh and yes that story (except for the names) did sound familiar (I even remember somebody telling it to me too) so when you started telling me about the poking a hole, I was like "hey wait a minute. This shit sounds very fucking familar" 😂
IslamThe Muslim world is a steaming pile of mess for what? 1000+ years? Especially since they banned topics like philosophy and "logic" mainly in the mainstream academic sphere.
(I believe) The whole there's no free will stuff is bullshit
The reason I'm talking about part 1 is I don't simply trust narrations (especially when I would ask people about it when reading the Quran which was a while back) these narrations REEK of bias, agenda, hyperbole, bad memory (old ass narrators) and just plain stupidity. All these narrators weren't Rick and Morty fans so you can know they weren't exactly HIGH IQ™ lol
The reason for part 2 is that why would predicting something with 100% accuracy ruin the "randomness" of the action in question? Think about it. God supposedly made this universe from scratch. Like even the 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimension we can experience. Surely the dude knows way more than we can understand (just because of the nature of his existence)
This Elon Musk circlejerk gets on my fucking nerves when he talks about us living in a simulation. Like fuck off dude. That and the AI overthrowing of humanity paranoia is bullshit. AIs are nothing like the (not animals) human brain. We don't even know where consciousness comes from. We don't even know why cells are "alive" in the first place and why can't we revive organisms after death if the damage is reversible. Ugh. And here comes musky with his fucking AI bullshit. Jesus!
Ok so the Islam thing. Beheading a child because he was to be a Kafir and will be a trouble to his parents? don't you see how fucking bullshit this is? Right? Unless the rules were waaaay different back then.
Last time I remember, "Shirk" is the biggest unforgivable sin in Islam and it isn't punishable by man. Like many sins that humans can't punish you for. The only sins that can be are the ones that are crimes against humanity and not exclusively crimes by disobeying God.
Plus you're killing someone for a sin that never happened. Alternate universes don't count as far as I know. Because that way you'll be punished for every sin conceivable.
These are just lazy narrations circlejerked around tbh. Because they don't make sense with that the Quran says tbh. Speaking by faith works, God knowing what you'll do doesn't mean he makes you do stuff. Because otherwise, free will is a lie and humans aren't "ashraful makhlokaat" (?) (Even better than Angels) because a free willed human CAN choose to not sin unlike angels that cannot sin in the first place.
Also on the topic of "unforgivable sin". A lot of Muslims say non Muslims will be in hell for all eternity.
But think about this. You're either forgiven and be clean or you have to be punished and come out clean. There are sins only humans can forgive you for so for those, if you're not forgiven, God won't forgive you so you'll have to be punished. Now that doesn't mean you rot for it for all eternity. It means you serve your time.
Lol shit's crazy tbh. But what I do find interesting about the Quran is that somewhere God mentions that this very book will be the reason for the rise and the fall of Muslims. The text won't change or be corrupted (lol). It depends on how they use it. We can see 21st century hasn't been kind to Muslims. True religion or not, it's a powerful book that, in the wrong hands can fuck people up.
The reason I'm talking about part 1 is I don't simply trust narrations (especially when I would ask people about it when reading the Quran which was a while back) these narrations REEK of bias, agenda, hyperbole, bad memory (old ass narrators) and just plain stupidity.
Well, yeah, that's true. When I talk about Islam, I'm just talking from a Sunni (80% of Muslims) perspective, who accept these narrations despite the problems in it.
The reason for part 2 is that why would predicting something with 100% accuracy ruin the "randomness" of the action in question? Think about it. God supposedly made this universe from scratch. Like even the 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimension we can experience.
I guess so. I was thinking of this more like you create a machine that you know isn't going to work, and after you create it, it doesn't work. It'll never work, and it was never going to work, it never had a chance of working. I don't know if randomness/chance comes into the equation because of everything being pre-written, the fact that you can't do anything without Allah's will, and that "Allah has made every person who does something and what he does".
There's actually a narration of a guy asking the prophet "what's the point of doing all this?" and I don't really get the given response:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
Muslim ibn Yasar al-Juhani said: When Umar ibn al-Khattab was asked about the verse "When your Lord took their offspring from the backs of the children of Adam" - al-Qa'nabi recited the verse--he said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say when he was questioned about it: Allah created Adam, then passed His right hand over his back, and brought forth from it his offspring, saying: I have these for Paradise and these will do the deeds of those who go to Paradise. He then passed His hand over his back and brought forth from it his offspring, saying: I have created these for Hell, and they will do the deeds of those who go to Hell.
A man asked: What is the good of doing anything, Messenger of Allah? The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: When Allah creates a servant for Paradise, He employs him in doing the deeds of those who will go to Paradise, so that his final action before death is one of the deeds of those who go to Paradise, for which He will bring him into Paradise. But when He creates a servant for Hell, He employs him in doing the deeds of those who will go to Hell, so that his final action before death is one of the deeds of those who go to Hell, for which He will bring him into Hell. (Sunan Abi Dawud 4703)
Surely the dude knows way more than we can understand (just because of the nature of his existence)
Yeah, this also comes into play, I've read about scholars saying this is just a test of faith. Logic doesn't really apply to God, I guess.
Ok so the Islam thing. Beheading a child because he was to be a Kafir and will be a trouble to his parents? don't you see how fucking bullshit this is? Right? Unless the rules were waaaay different back then.
Last time I remember, "Shirk" is the biggest unforgivable sin in Islam and it isn't punishable by man. Like many sins that humans can't punish you for. The only sins that can be are the ones that are crimes against humanity and not exclusively crimes by disobeying God.
Depends on your definition of "crimes against humanity", since stuff like stealing, apostasy, adultery, etc. are punishable.
Plus you're killing someone for a sin that never happened. Alternate universes don't count as far as I know. Because that way you'll be punished for every sin conceivable.
These are just lazy narrations circlejerked around tbh. Because they don't make sense with that the Quran says tbh. Speaking by faith works, God knowing what you'll do doesn't mean he makes you do stuff. Because otherwise, free will is a lie and humans aren't "ashraful makhlokaat" (?) (Even better than Angels) because a free willed human CAN choose to not sin unlike angels that cannot sin in the first place.
If you mean the story of Al-Khadr, it actually is something in the Qur'an for once, it's told in the verses 18:60-82.
Also on the topic of "unforgivable sin". A lot of Muslims say non Muslims will be in hell for all eternity.
But think about this. You're either forgiven and be clean or you have to be punished and come out clean. There are sins only humans can forgive you for so for those, if you're not forgiven, God won't forgive you so you'll have to be punished. Now that doesn't mean you rot for it for all eternity. It means you serve your time.
Well, you can only come out clean if you were Muslim in the first place. Dying upon disbelief damns you for eternity. It logically makes sense to punish someone's finite sin with a finite amount of punishment, but again: "Surely the dude knows way more than we can understand (just because of the nature of his existence)".
True religion or not, it's a powerful book that, in the wrong hands can fuck people up.
Yep, something notable about Islam is how many texts and rulings there are, people literally spend decades/their whole lives studying this stuff, it's pretty in-depth. I guess a lot of other religions are just "personal" things, but Islam pretty much dictates how the world should be run according to it.
Interesting, the person that made the original post there was the same person that this post was about.
They're right that women are not generally "property", but you would be lying if you said that women aren't subservient to their husbands (to tie in point 3 of his about marriage, a woman cannot get married without permission of a male guardian). As for the just generally not property part, this is definitely wrong:
Women (and men) are not property of anyone.
They forgot about the institution of slavery in Islam (cue pasta about how we were supposed to treat our slaves very nicely).
Islam endorses killing for Allah. All murder in the name of Allah is seen as justified.
"The US government and all its citizens endorses murdering the wives and children of 'terrorists' who are just random villagers doing villager things." That statement is closer to accurate than what this person said in class. Murder in Islam generally carries the death penalty.
That analogy is horrible. Sure, the statement "All murder in the name of Allah is seen as justified" is wrong, but a lot of murder in the name of Allah is seen as justified and isn't even considered "murder".
To start off, let's remember that killing a non-Muslim is not punished with the death penalty:
It was narrated from 'Ali, may Allah be please with him that the Prophet said:
"The lives of the believers are equal in value, and they are one against others, and they hasten to support the asylum granted by the least of them. But no believer may be killed in return for a disbeliever, nor one with a covenant while his covenant is in effect." (Sunan an-Nasa'i 4735)
Let's not forget that killing an apostate is not considered murder (and before you screech about that being treason, that's the problem with Islam, it considers that treason, and it's a terrible analogy. Giving up your citizenship is not treason in the US, and treason is not comparable to personal beliefs anyway).
`Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn `Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet (ﷺ) said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet (ﷺ) said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu`adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu`adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu`adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.""
It has been reported on the authority of Abu Musa who said:
I went to the Prophet (ﷺ) and with me were two men from the Ash'ari tribe. One of them was on my right hand and the other on my left. Both of them made a request for a position (of authority) while the Prophet (ﷺ) was brushing his teeth with a tooth-stick. He said (to me): Abu Musa (or 'Abdullah b. Qais), what do you say (about the request they have made)? I said: By God Who sent thee on thy mission with truth, they did not disclose to me what they had in their minds, and I did not know that they would ask for a position. The narrator says (while recalling this hadith): I visualise as if I were looking at the miswak of the Prophet (ﷺ) between his lips. He (the Holy Prophet) said: We shall not or shall never appoint to the public offices (in our State) those who with to have them, but you may go, Abu Musa (or Abdullah b. Qais) (to take up your assignment). He sent him to Yemen as governor. then he sent Mu'adh b. jabal in his wake (to help him in the discharge of duties). When Mu'adh reached the camp of Abu Musa, the latter (received him and) said: Please get yourself down; and he spread for him a mattress, while there was a man bound hand and foot as a prisoner. Mu'adh said: Who is this? Abu Musa said: He was a Jew. He embraced Islam. Then he reverted to his false religion and became a Jew. Mu'adh said: I won't sit until he is killed according to the decree of Allah and His Apostle (ﷺ) (in this case). Abu Musa said: Be seated. It will be done. He said: I won't sit unless he is killed in accordance with the decree of Allah and His Apostle (ﷺ). He repeated these words thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered him (to be killed) and he was killed. Then the two talked of standing in prayer at night. One of them, i. e. Mu'adh, said: I sleep (for a part of the night) and stand in prayer (for a part) and I hope that I shall get the same reward for steeping as I shall get for standing (in prayer).
Killing someone who insults the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him)
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a female slave who had borne him a child, and who used to abuse the Prophet (ﷺ) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (ﷺ) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (ﷺ) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (ﷺ) and said: Messenger of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (ﷺ) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.Sunan Abi Dawud 4361
Side note: That was his slave, who he had sex with and got pregnant. Islam invented true feminism though, it's too bad that "this is different from our modern society, where people are enslaved by their carnal desires."
Marriage is a social contract rather than an expression of a couple's lasting love for each other. Marriage is usually set up by the parents, with little input from the bride/groom.
Marriage is a contract, but it is also an expression of love. What country doesn't have marriage as a contract? The US, Canada, Australia, the UK all see marriage as a contract. Why does that preclude love? And in Islam it is invalid to marry without the permission of the two marrying, so again they made things up.
Actually, it's not "permission of the two", it's permission of the three—the man, the woman, and the woman's guardian.
Sure, marriage is a social contract, but it sure isn't "an expression of a couple's lasting love for each other", you can't have a "couple" before marriage, that's haram. That's why the way it's usually set up by parents, it prevents haram contact. Haven't you ever been to one of those cringy "Love in Islam" or "Marriage in Islam" lectures? They always mention that love comes after you get married. Lurk the masjid more often.
Denouncing your belief in Allah/Muhammad/Quran is grounds for execution.
Every society punishes treason. If a person wants to live in the US and disrespect the flag, the anthem, and join a terrorist organization how do you treat them? No nation accepts disloyalty to it. In Islam caliphate if you follow the Islamic laws, no one will bother you.
"How do you treat them?" If you follow events in the US, you'll see that many, many people have been protesting the anthem recently. Flag burning is not illegal and many people do it. The fact that you equate leaving a religion and denouncing aspects of it with joining a terrorist organization is very telling (I'm glad that you at least didn't deny that they're supposed to be executed though).
Well I did went snooping in his post history so it's hardly a coincidence. 😂
As for the just generally not property part, this is definitely wrong:
Oh I completely agree. It's just that he talked about the religion's stand on it but it doesn't seem to be moral to not talk about the bigger culture.
Most men in Muslim countries don't care what Islam as it is evident from their actions and culture. Women barely have a clear cut say in marriage and then there's guilt tripping and emotional coercion. Sure change is coming but still you know. They don't seem them as equals. And even if they do, they don't act like it. (but they love to jerk off to 4:3 but intentionally leave out the latter part of the verse)
As for points 2 and 3, I don't remember what they were :p
Point 4? And you can't criticize the book? Wtf? If you think it is pure and perfect then its criticism will just prove that. Why be so defensive about it? Criticism as in an intellectually honest one and not just taking points.
Most men in Muslim countries don't really care what Islam says (when it doesn't benefit them) it is evident from their actions and culture. Women barely have a clear cut say in marriage and then there's guilt tripping and emotional coercion. Sure change is coming but still you know. They don't see them as equals. And even if they do, they don't act like it. (but they love to jerk off to 4:3 but intentionally leave out the latter part of the verse)
What ends up happening at the end is people just use the religion the way they see it fit. I think polygamy is decreasing though in many Muslim countries because people realize how hard it is to support that for the average person.
As for points 2 and 3, I don't remember what they were :p
I quoted them, but I left out the numbers. Here they are in their glory:
1 - Women (and men) are not property of anyone. They are are free of all enslavement to any material thing, and only submit themselves in front of God. This is different from our modern society, where people are enslaved by their carnal desires. Hence why Muslim women will tell you they would not trade their relationship with God for any man, woman, or thing.
2 - "The US government and all its citizens endorses murdering the wives and children of 'terrorists' who are just random villagers doing villager things." That statement is closer to accurate than what this person said in class. Murder in Islam generally carries the death penalty.
3 - Marriage is a contract, but it is also an expression of love. What country doesn't have marriage as a contract? The US, Canada, Australia, the UK all see marriage as a contract. Why does that preclude love? And in Islam it is invalid to marry without the permission of the two marrying, so again they made things up.
4 - Every society punishes treason. If a person wants to live in the US and disrespect the flag, the anthem, and join a terrorist organization how do you treat them? No nation accepts disloyalty to it. In Islam caliphate if you follow the Islamic laws, no one will bother you.
Point 4? And you can't criticize the book? Wtf? If you think it is pure and perfect then its criticism will just prove that. Why be so defensive about it? Criticism as in an intellectually honest one and not just taking points.
When you accept Islam, you're accepting that the Qur'an is the divine word of Allah as a premise. There's no need to criticize it (the Qur'an does provide the "produce a surah like it" challenge for nonbelievers, but that's pretty much it). If you're a Muslim, criticizing the Qur'an is literally criticizing the word of God, you're calling him into question when it should be unquestionable.
The iOS English dictionary (Apple) provides this definition for criticism:
1. the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes: "he received a lot of criticism | he ignored the criticisms of his friends."
*2. The analysis and judgment of the merits and faults of a
literary or artistic work: alternative methods of criticism supported by ell-developed literary theories.*
3. The scholarly investigation of literary or historical texts to determine their origin or intended form.
I mean it doesn't have to be negative without any basis. You can criticize it, analyze it but come the same conclusion as the book itself about that matter. With that you get a better understanding.
Sure there's not point in arguing about stuff that's based solely in blind faith like God being one and the existence of angels and an after life etc. As a believer, you'll have to take it for it is.
The real question is, does Islam approve of free speech? (Barring things like death threats etc)
I've seen arguments for and against it. Neither side seems convincing tbh 😂 (mostly because the stuff I read or people that i listened to weren't very knowledgeable ¯\_(ツ) _/¯ )
I mean it doesn't have to be negative without any basis. You can criticize it, analyze it but come the same conclusion as the book itself about that matter. With that you get a better understanding.
It dependes on how you go about it I guess. If you're just analyzing it to understand it better, that's fine, but that's not really what comes to mind from the word "criticism". Going out to look for faults in a book that's supposed to be perfect is different, though.
The real question is, does Islam approve of free speech?
I guess most free speech has its limits, but to say Islam allows free speech really devalues the term.
Some things that come to mind: you're not allowed to criticize the religion in a way that would be considered spreading disbelief. You can't criticize or make fun of the Prophet (see the hadith about the man stabbing his slave for an example). Under an Islamic state, non-Muslims can't proselytize, because it's spreading disbelief.
41 comments
1 SnapshillBot 2017-11-04
Don't even try to kinkshame me. My kinks are my business.
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1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
/u/shallowm ya habibi /u/TheShiaPill is blasphemy :D
1 TheShiaPill 2017-11-04
the inside story on you young facists is a lot of you ended up in shock humour/lonely dude forums that nazi recruiters joined its not a fucking puzzle all the history is on the sites there you crossed ur nerdy hobbies with ur nerdy resentment Bunch fucking nerds with your dipshit teenage beefs probably started with a resentment of woman who won't speak to you and now you think you have become POl radicalized So how did it happen how did you become a fucking nazi? A bunch of real nazis whisper poison in your ears while becoming your only community - your only "friends" And they used multiples levels to make irony and bigotry more acceptable by drowning it in "oh were just joking" So you combine all this w/ capitalising on isolated nerd dude resentment & even deeper isolation bam nazi you can talk to any former "chan" boy & they can tell you how it went from "shitty shock humour" to "whites supremacist recruitment" The only "lol only norms care about hurting others attitude" + the general nerdy male resentment of these communities Its prime fertile ground for actual nazis to grow. People talk about pol, but you need to see the various communities converge R9k's "why won't woman fuck me" bs "anything goes & anyone who gets mad is just a normie" vs endless outbursts of anger at everything Pol here becomes less of an isolated phenomenon and more of a natural end point for all these circles crashing into one another & pol, also being its own thing menas it it rolled back into those communities amplifying your worst aspect then roll it back into pol So essentially you have an online pressure cooker to turn you typical teenage nerdy bullshit into honest to god facism
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
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║░▒║with this blade
║░▒║i cut those who
║░▒║disrespect
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Rick And Morty║░▒║Imam Hussein and Ali SAW !!!
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1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
/u/shallowm edgy ain't it? :D
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
Pretty good, but not enough praise for Ali, you have to get on the level of these guys, who thought that Ali was supposed to be the last messenger, but Jibril (Gabriel), fucked it up and accidentally passed on the message to Muhammad.
Or even better, these guys who thought that Ali was literally God and Muhammad was the messenger of Ali, but Muhammad decided to preach his own message instead of calling the people to Ali.
1 WikiTextBot 2017-11-04
Ghurabiya
The Ghurabiyya Shi‘a were a ghulāt sect of Shi‘a Islam. They were the best known of a few extremist Shi‘a sects from the Middle Ages who adopted the belief that the angel Jibra’il (Gabriel) was mistaken when passing on the prophecy to Muhammad instead of Ali.
Dhammiya
The Dhammiyya Shia was a Ghulat sect of Islam. The name “Dhammiyya” was derived from the Arabic word “dhamm” (i.e. “blame”). Therefore, the Arabic name “Dhammiyya” is translated as “blamers.” The name “blamers” was used for the Dhammiyya Shia because they believed that Ali was God and Muhammad was his prophet and messinger and that Muhammad was to be blamed because he was sent by Ali to call the people to Ali, but called them to himself instead.
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1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
Oof! Plus aren't angels supposed to be perfect and free from error? "Fucked it up" hahaha that's hilarious!
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
Yep, pretty much no one following Islam would consider these people Muslims.
I find it funny that the regular declaration of faith goes like "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad the messenger of Allah" when this sect would go "There is no God but Ali, and Muhammad is the messenger of Ali".
Coincidentally, it's not uncommon to find Sunnis calling Shia mushrikeen (people who associate partners to Allah, for example the polytheists during the time of the prophet Muhammad) due to the differences between the sects.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
One more thing, so I've asked my muslim friends this that what was muhammad's religion before Islam? His father's name was "abdullah" so certainly the word for God didn't came with Islam and isn't exclusive to it. They said there was no other prophet between Jesus and muhammad but i highly doubt he was a Christian given his illiteracy and the area where he resided. I've heard from them that he used to pray even before being a prophet in a cave so is there any consensus about his religion? Was he a polytheist like Arabs back then?
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
Well, given that Prophets are protected from committing major sin, it couldn't have been something considered shirk like the pagan Arabs were doing (polytheism). Muslims also believe that the message of Jesus (Christianity) was corrupted, there's no way he was a Christian either. I don't think there's a definite answer to which religion he used to follow, there is a mention that he used to "worship Allah" though in a hadith (just quoting the relevant portion, because the whole thing is a bit long):
That's from one of the hadiths covering how the Qur'an was first revealed to him.
Yeah, the polytheistic Arabs also believed in Allah, even before Islam. Even though Muslims believe that the message of Jesus was corrupted by the people, the prophet's dad is going to Hell:
Kind of weird, don't you think? There was no true, "uncorrupted" message for him to follow.
I'm not sure if this is true, if we order the prophets and messengers whose names we know from Islamic scripture in order, we'll have Jesus right before Muhammad, but according to Islam, there are others who we don't know about.
The last book revealed from Allah before the Qur'an that we know about is the Gospel from Jesus, but I don't think that necessarily means that no others were revealed between them.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
Neat! Thanks!
But isn't there a different rule that if you were stuck in such a shithole where you couldn't receive the true message of God (through a prophet or humans) then you're exempt from a lot of stuff that ordinary humans will have to answer for? Where mo' and his dad live was a backwards shithole soooo? Am was I misled about this exemption and that person was lying out of his ass lol?
Surely you don't hold the tribes in Amazon or the North Sentinel Islanders living on an island South of India in the Indian Ocean who are one of the last people to remain I contacted by modern day human (there were some attempts but it ended up with those islanders getting sick and dying from diseases which we modern day humans carry with us lmao)
So there's no exception to the rule? Like there's exception for uneducated deaf and dumb people, other mentally challenged humans?
1 WikiTextBot 2017-11-04
Sentinelese
The Sentinelese (also called the Sentineli or North Sentinel Islanders) are the indigenous people of North Sentinel Island in the Andaman Islands of India. One of the Andamanese peoples, they resist contact with the outside world, and are among the last people to remain virtually untouched and uncontacted by modern civilisation.
The Sentinelese maintain an essentially hunter-gatherer society subsisting through hunting, fishing, and collecting wild plants. There is no evidence of either agricultural practices or methods of producing fire.
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1 shallowm 2017-11-04
It's true, if the message doesn't reach you for one reason or another, then you're supposed to be tested on the Day of Judgment, which is why I find it weird that Muhammad's dad is going to Hell. The way this is justified is the claim that the message of the past prophets was known to these people, but Islam also claims these messages were corrupted by its followers so they were no longer valid, and Islam became the one true religion.
These are actually specifically mentioned:
This is taken to mean that if the person in question obeys the command of Allah, they go to Paradise, and if they don't, then they go to Hell.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
Thank you for all of this. I'm surely taking your time and if you don't want to reply it's completely fine by me. Please!
Ok umm
So what I'm getting from this is that God actually sends all 4 of them to Hell (Fire) but this part
suggests to me that God already knows, in case they weren't handicapped/were at a disadvantage, which one of these people would have followed the message of God if their circumstances were different.
I'm it's "God" we're talking about so he is kinda like the master programmer than know what scenario will lead to what kind of results.
So those who would have followed God in this world if they were "Normal" will not feel the pain of fire of hell (and they will ultimately enter heaven?)
But the problem is that, let's suppose, the old man if he had received the message in his youth, would turn out to be a non believer and since in this alternate reality (which still uses the same variables like his personality, thinking morality etc), he will be a non believer hence he will get punished for sin that would have if his circumstances were normal??
That's really fucked up. That's like punishing me for a genocide that I would have committed if I were ever elected as a head of state, then turning into a dictator just because of my genocidal tendencies.
It's like punishing people for sins they are likely to commit but haven't because of specific circumstances. HOLY SHIT LMAOOOOO
is this making any sense? or am i just rambling like a fucking retard?
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
Did you delete the latest reply of yours? I typed like half a response but fell asleep, if you post it again, I don't mind answering it.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
Actually I misinterpreted that last paragraph you quoted i your comment. So I mean who would, in their right mind disobey God on Judgment day you know? Like of course these 4 guys are gonna obey him hence will enter heaven. Or am I still reading this wrong :D
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
Well, actually, I think your original comment was more accurate and kind of spot-on.
I'll try to complete what I remember from memory:
This makes complete sense, it's one of the things that makes me go "what the fuck" about the religion.
Yep, he already knows what they're going to choose.
God in Islam (I don't know about other religions, but I assume for the other Abrahamic religions, it's the same) is omnipotent and omniscient (that is, all-powerful and all-knowing). He knows every action you're going to take before you're even born—he always knew. Everything that was going to happen was written in something called "The Preserved Tablet." I always found this hard to reconcile with free will.
In addition to that, it's specifically mentioned that whether you're going to Hell or not is set:
Another one:
This one I find pretty interesting, because Muslims also say that Muslim children (the children of kuffar are a different matter with differing opinions) go to Heaven by default. Just another contradiction, I guess.
Well, I guess so, the person's ultimate destiny is already written before they even existed, so yeah.
You mentioned something else which I don't remember exactly, but it reminded me strongly about the story of Khader, I'll just tell you his story:
Someone one day asks Moses "Who's the most knowledgeable from the people?" and he says that he (Moses) is. Allah wanted to teach him a lesson because he said that, so he sends him on a journey to meet this guy called al-Khader (a bunch of stuff happens during the journey, but it's not really relevant to this), someone who Allah has given knowledge.
So he finally meets al-Khader, and Moses asks him if he can follow him around to learn from him. Al-Khader tells him "You're not going to be able to handle me." Moses says "C'mon pls" and Al-Khader relents, but says "You can't ask me about anything until I tell you myself." Moses agrees, and they set out.
They start walking around and eventually come across a ship, and the sailors let them on the ship, so they hitchhike on it. After getting on, al-Khader makes a hole in the ship. Moses says "What the fuck, you want to drown everyone? That's fucked up." Al-Khader says "I thought you were going to shut up?" Moses says "My bad", they eventually reach land and get off. Moses has one strike so far.
(This is the related incident) After getting off, they start walking on the shore, and they come across a bunch of kids playing with each other. Al-Khader takes one of the kids and beheads him. Understandably, Moses goes "Dude, wtf?" again, Al-Khader reminds him that he said he was going to shut up (strike two). Moses apologizes, and says if I do it again, I'll stop following you.
They keep going and come to a tow, where they ask people for food, but the people of the town refuse. They walk around until they find a wall lying in disrepair, and Al-Khader fixes the wall. Moses asks him "Why'd you fix the wall, the people of the town didn't even want to feed us." Al-Khader says "That's strike three, but before I leave, I'll explain everything I did."
The reason he made a hole in the ship is because there was a king going around taking control of the ships, and the king wouldn't want a messed up ship.
The reason he killed the kid is because they didn't want the kid to be a problem for his parents through disbelief.
More explanation:
So pretty much, he was destined to be a kafir and his parents might've gotten involved in kufr (disbelief) so he killed him, and wanted their parents to try and have a better child (reroll).
The reason he fixed the wall is because it belonged to two orphan kids, and the wall had some treasure that belonged to them under it.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
Sorry I deleted the original comment. I'll give you the TLDR. Also I haven't read this comment if yours. After typing this I'll read and reply.
So after reading that last quote it seemed to me that
God tells them to enter hell
Some will not feel the pain of that fire
That's because if these people weren't disadvantaged by their handicaps, they would've followed God and his message.
Some will feel pain because for them it's the opposite. If they were "normal" in an alternate life. They'd be non believers hence hell.
Also this means God is punishing people for sins they WOULD HAVE committed if they have different scenarios. Like me being punished for a genocide I never committed but I WOULD HAVE committed if I ever was elected Head of State turned dictator.
Basically punishing someone for possible sins? That's a slippery slope tbh and can't only apply to deaf/dumb etc people about their faith as a whole.
That's pretty absurd if you ask me. Like I've read the Quran too and I just don't feel that's what i felt and got from it.
Plus on a very seperate topic. A lot of Muslims talk about eternal hell but as far as i know, that's not a thing (I can be completely wrong though)
Plus even as GOD (unless you break the rule you made yourself) you can't justify eternally punishing someone for a sin that was committed for a limited amount of time.
Ok so now I'll read your response.
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
Ah yeah, this was what reminded me about the story of Al-Khader.
A lot of stuff isn't in the Qur'an, although the story of Al-Khader is actually mentioned in it, but the hadiths go more in depth about it. It's interesting that you've read the (whole?) Qur'an though, I feel like most Muslims haven't actually read it (in a language they understand).
I've come across a few people who believe that Hell isn't eternal (I don't know their arguments for it), but the majority of Muslims believe that hell is eternal for non-Muslims (Muslims who go to hell for their sins will be taken out of it and put in Paradise after being punished for however long Allah thinks is appropriate). These are a couple of related verses that I can recall:
On this:
I'm not sure what you mean, God is held to be inherently always right and just, it might not make sense to us, but God is the most just, knows what's right, etc.
Life in this world is considered a test, those who pass get Paradise forever, and those who disbelieve get Hell forever.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
Thanks! Religion is a difficult thing and certainly not something that you can be passive about without misleading yourself. These things can be absolutely crazy lol.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
Oh and yes that story (except for the names) did sound familiar (I even remember somebody telling it to me too) so when you started telling me about the poking a hole, I was like "hey wait a minute. This shit sounds very fucking familar" 😂
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
Ok so 2 points I'll talk about briefly.
IslamThe Muslim world is a steaming pile of mess for what? 1000+ years? Especially since they banned topics like philosophy and "logic" mainly in the mainstream academic sphere.(I believe) The whole there's no free will stuff is bullshit
The reason I'm talking about part 1 is I don't simply trust narrations (especially when I would ask people about it when reading the Quran which was a while back) these narrations REEK of bias, agenda, hyperbole, bad memory (old ass narrators) and just plain stupidity. All these narrators weren't Rick and Morty fans so you can know they weren't exactly HIGH IQ™ lol
The reason for part 2 is that why would predicting something with 100% accuracy ruin the "randomness" of the action in question? Think about it. God supposedly made this universe from scratch. Like even the 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimension we can experience. Surely the dude knows way more than we can understand (just because of the nature of his existence)
This Elon Musk circlejerk gets on my fucking nerves when he talks about us living in a simulation. Like fuck off dude. That and the AI overthrowing of humanity paranoia is bullshit. AIs are nothing like the (not animals) human brain. We don't even know where consciousness comes from. We don't even know why cells are "alive" in the first place and why can't we revive organisms after death if the damage is reversible. Ugh. And here comes musky with his fucking AI bullshit. Jesus!
Ok so the Islam thing. Beheading a child because he was to be a Kafir and will be a trouble to his parents? don't you see how fucking bullshit this is? Right? Unless the rules were waaaay different back then.
Last time I remember, "Shirk" is the biggest unforgivable sin in Islam and it isn't punishable by man. Like many sins that humans can't punish you for. The only sins that can be are the ones that are crimes against humanity and not exclusively crimes by disobeying God.
Plus you're killing someone for a sin that never happened. Alternate universes don't count as far as I know. Because that way you'll be punished for every sin conceivable.
These are just lazy narrations circlejerked around tbh. Because they don't make sense with that the Quran says tbh. Speaking by faith works, God knowing what you'll do doesn't mean he makes you do stuff. Because otherwise, free will is a lie and humans aren't "ashraful makhlokaat" (?) (Even better than Angels) because a free willed human CAN choose to not sin unlike angels that cannot sin in the first place.
Also on the topic of "unforgivable sin". A lot of Muslims say non Muslims will be in hell for all eternity.
But think about this. You're either forgiven and be clean or you have to be punished and come out clean. There are sins only humans can forgive you for so for those, if you're not forgiven, God won't forgive you so you'll have to be punished. Now that doesn't mean you rot for it for all eternity. It means you serve your time.
Lol shit's crazy tbh. But what I do find interesting about the Quran is that somewhere God mentions that this very book will be the reason for the rise and the fall of Muslims. The text won't change or be corrupted (lol). It depends on how they use it. We can see 21st century hasn't been kind to Muslims. True religion or not, it's a powerful book that, in the wrong hands can fuck people up.
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
Well, yeah, that's true. When I talk about Islam, I'm just talking from a Sunni (80% of Muslims) perspective, who accept these narrations despite the problems in it.
I guess so. I was thinking of this more like you create a machine that you know isn't going to work, and after you create it, it doesn't work. It'll never work, and it was never going to work, it never had a chance of working. I don't know if randomness/chance comes into the equation because of everything being pre-written, the fact that you can't do anything without Allah's will, and that "Allah has made every person who does something and what he does".
There's actually a narration of a guy asking the prophet "what's the point of doing all this?" and I don't really get the given response:
Yeah, this also comes into play, I've read about scholars saying this is just a test of faith. Logic doesn't really apply to God, I guess.
Depends on your definition of "crimes against humanity", since stuff like stealing, apostasy, adultery, etc. are punishable.
If you mean the story of Al-Khadr, it actually is something in the Qur'an for once, it's told in the verses 18:60-82.
Well, you can only come out clean if you were Muslim in the first place. Dying upon disbelief damns you for eternity. It logically makes sense to punish someone's finite sin with a finite amount of punishment, but again: "Surely the dude knows way more than we can understand (just because of the nature of his existence)".
Yep, something notable about Islam is how many texts and rulings there are, people literally spend decades/their whole lives studying this stuff, it's pretty in-depth. I guess a lot of other religions are just "personal" things, but Islam pretty much dictates how the world should be run according to it.
1 TheShiaPill 2017-11-04
The Knife of Peace
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
/u/TheShiaPill I literally just did this test, يا ابن المتعة
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
Hey /u/Shallowm get a load of this guy
https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/7bush3/comment/dpkybsj/
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
Interesting, the person that made the original post there was the same person that this post was about.
They're right that women are not generally "property", but you would be lying if you said that women aren't subservient to their husbands (to tie in point 3 of his about marriage, a woman cannot get married without permission of a male guardian). As for the just generally not property part, this is definitely wrong:
They forgot about the institution of slavery in Islam (cue pasta about how we were supposed to treat our slaves very nicely).
/u/IntellectualHT
That analogy is horrible. Sure, the statement "All murder in the name of Allah is seen as justified" is wrong, but a lot of murder in the name of Allah is seen as justified and isn't even considered "murder".
To start off, let's remember that killing a non-Muslim is not punished with the death penalty:
Let's not forget that killing an apostate is not considered murder (and before you screech about that being treason, that's the problem with Islam, it considers that treason, and it's a terrible analogy. Giving up your citizenship is not treason in the US, and treason is not comparable to personal beliefs anyway).
Hadith 1
Hadith 2
Hadith 3
Killing someone who insults the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him)
Side note: That was his slave, who he had sex with and got pregnant. Islam invented true feminism though, it's too bad that "this is different from our modern society, where people are enslaved by their carnal desires."
Actually, it's not "permission of the two", it's permission of the three—the man, the woman, and the woman's guardian.
Sure, marriage is a social contract, but it sure isn't "an expression of a couple's lasting love for each other", you can't have a "couple" before marriage, that's haram. That's why the way it's usually set up by parents, it prevents haram contact. Haven't you ever been to one of those cringy "Love in Islam" or "Marriage in Islam" lectures? They always mention that love comes after you get married. Lurk the masjid more often.
"How do you treat them?" If you follow events in the US, you'll see that many, many people have been protesting the anthem recently. Flag burning is not illegal and many people do it. The fact that you equate leaving a religion and denouncing aspects of it with joining a terrorist organization is very telling (I'm glad that you at least didn't deny that they're supposed to be executed though).
/u/darthxaim
Check the above referenced ahadith if you want to see "Islam" instead of just "Muslims".
I'll just tag /u/KraggMan for good measure, since he was the one that asked the original question.
I'd tag dxbomar and Papercurtain too for this exchange they had, but I've run out of pings.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
Well I did went snooping in his post history so it's hardly a coincidence. 😂
Oh I completely agree. It's just that he talked about the religion's stand on it but it doesn't seem to be moral to not talk about the bigger culture.
Most men in Muslim countries don't care what Islam as it is evident from their actions and culture. Women barely have a clear cut say in marriage and then there's guilt tripping and emotional coercion. Sure change is coming but still you know. They don't seem them as equals. And even if they do, they don't act like it. (but they love to jerk off to 4:3 but intentionally leave out the latter part of the verse)
As for points 2 and 3, I don't remember what they were :p
Point 4? And you can't criticize the book? Wtf? If you think it is pure and perfect then its criticism will just prove that. Why be so defensive about it? Criticism as in an intellectually honest one and not just taking points.
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
What ends up happening at the end is people just use the religion the way they see it fit. I think polygamy is decreasing though in many Muslim countries because people realize how hard it is to support that for the average person.
I quoted them, but I left out the numbers. Here they are in their glory:
When you accept Islam, you're accepting that the Qur'an is the divine word of Allah as a premise. There's no need to criticize it (the Qur'an does provide the "produce a surah like it" challenge for nonbelievers, but that's pretty much it). If you're a Muslim, criticizing the Qur'an is literally criticizing the word of God, you're calling him into question when it should be unquestionable.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
The iOS English dictionary (Apple) provides this definition for criticism:
literary or artistic work: alternative methods of criticism supported by ell-developed literary theories.*
I mean it doesn't have to be negative without any basis. You can criticize it, analyze it but come the same conclusion as the book itself about that matter. With that you get a better understanding.
Sure there's not point in arguing about stuff that's based solely in blind faith like God being one and the existence of angels and an after life etc. As a believer, you'll have to take it for it is.
The real question is, does Islam approve of free speech? (Barring things like death threats etc)
I've seen arguments for and against it. Neither side seems convincing tbh 😂 (mostly because the stuff I read or people that i listened to weren't very knowledgeable ¯\_(ツ) _/¯ )
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
It dependes on how you go about it I guess. If you're just analyzing it to understand it better, that's fine, but that's not really what comes to mind from the word "criticism". Going out to look for faults in a book that's supposed to be perfect is different, though.
I guess most free speech has its limits, but to say Islam allows free speech really devalues the term.
Some things that come to mind: you're not allowed to criticize the religion in a way that would be considered spreading disbelief. You can't criticize or make fun of the Prophet (see the hadith about the man stabbing his slave for an example). Under an Islamic state, non-Muslims can't proselytize, because it's spreading disbelief.
There are a lot of restrictions on speech.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
Tough luck because stifling speech fucks poor and weak people over i.e sizable of the population.
Poor and weak people always get fucked over. Religion or not :(
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
Yeah, the law often doesn't apply to the rich, regardless of the legal system.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
/u/shallowm hey man remove the source pls lol and NEVER tag him in drama.
He's probably not a troll (from what I know) and I don't want to scare him off. He's a really good source for weird ass pasta :D
1 pwpas 2017-11-04
This is proof that you're wetbrained.
1 shallowm 2017-11-04
Oops, I didn't think about the possible repercussions.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-11-04
Yeah we don't want him to become the butt of every joke on drama for the next week or so 😅
Thanks :p
1 [deleted] 2017-11-04
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1 [deleted] 2017-11-04
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1 theHelperdroid 2017-11-04
Helperdroid and its creator love you, here's some people that can help:
United States:
1 (866)-488-7366 - Trevor Project
1 (866) 488 7386 - Addiction Hotline
844 228 2962- Eating Disorder Hotline
888 640 5174 - Depression Hotline
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255 (TALK) Veterans press 1 to reach specialised support.
(The older number, 1-800-SUICIDE, is no longer published by the lifeline agency and will probably stop working in the near future.)
Online Chat: http://chat.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/GetHelp/LifelineChat.aspx
Crisis Text Line: Text START to 741-741
Youth-Specific services (voice/text/chat/email) from the Boys' Town National Hotline: http://www.yourlifeyourvoice.org/Pages/ways-to-get-help.aspx
Spanish: 1-800-SUICIDA
EU Standard Emotional Support Number 116 123 - Free and available in much of Europe
Australia:
13 11 14
https://www.lifeline.org.au/Get-Help/Online-Services/crisis-chat
Austria:
142, Youth 147 Online: http://www.onlineberatung-telefonseelsorge.at
Belgium:
Dutch: 1813 https://www.zelfmoord1813.be/
French: 0800 32 123 http://www.preventionsuicide.be/fr/lesuicide.html
Brasil:
141
Canada:
Canada-wide adult hotlines list Alternatively, 211 works in most of Canada, and they can advise regarding local resources.
Nationwide Kids Help Line (Up to age 18): 1-800-668-6868
Deutschland:
http://www.telefonseelsorge.de/
Tel: 0800-1110111 oder 0800-1110222
Chat: https://chat.telefonseelsorge.org/index.php
Denmark:
70 20 12 01
www.livslinien.dk
www.Skrivdet.dk
Fiji:
Lifeline Fiji:
132454
France:
01 45 39 40 00
Suicide Écoute - http://www.suicide-ecoute.fr/
Greece:
1018 or 801 801 99 99
Greece - http://www.suicide-help.gr/
Iceland:
1717
India:
91-44-2464005 0
022-27546669
Iran:
1480 6am to 9pm everyday
Ireland:
ROI - local rate: 1850 60 90 90
ROI - minicom: 1850 60 90 91
Israel:
1201
Italia:
800 86 00 22
Malta:
179
Japan:
Tokyo - Japanese: 3 5286 9090 befrienders-jap.org
Tokyo - English: 03-5774-0992 telljp.com
Osaka - Japanese: 06-6260-4343 spc-osaka.org
The above sites maintain links to related resources in other cities and other formats like chat and text.
Korea:
LifeLine 1588-9191 Suicide Prevention Hotline 1577-0199
http://www.lifeline.or.kr/
Mexico:
(55) 5259-8121 (Daily, 0900-2100h) saptel.org.mx
Netherlands:
0900 0113
https://www.113.nl
New Zealand:
0800 543 354 Outside Auckland
09 5222 999 Inside Auckland
Norway:
Kirkens SOS offers phone support and chat: 22 40 00 40 and http://www.kirkens-sos.no/
Osterreich/Austria:
116 123
Portugal:
SOS VOZ AMIGA: 21 354 45 45 or 91 280 26 69 or 96 352 46 60 (Daily, 1600-2400h) http://www.sosvozamiga.org/
Telefone da Amizade: 22 832 35 35 or 808 22 33 53 (Daily, 1600-2300h) http://www.telefone-amizade.pt/
Romania:
0800 801 200
Serbia:
0800 300 303 or 021 6623 393
Online chat:http://www.centarsrce.org/index.php/kontakt[2]
South Africa:
LifeLine 0861 322 322
Suicide Crisis Line 0800 567 567
Spain:
http://www.telefonodelaesperanza.org/
Suomi/Finland:
010 195 202 available 9am-7am weekdays and 3pm-7am weekends
112, the regular emergency line, may be used at other times
Sverige/Sweden:
020 22 00 60
Switzerland:
143
UK:
Samaritans (www.samaritans.org)
Voice: 116 123 (24/7 Free to call, will not appear on phone bills, formerly 08457 90 90 90)
Text: 07725909090
Email: [email protected]
Helplines for Men from thecalmzone.net:
Voice: 0800 58 58 58 (5pm to midnight nationwide, also 0808 802 58 58 London and 0800 58 58 58 Merseyside)
Text 07537 404717 (5pm to midnight, start your text with CALM2)
Online Chat: https://www.thecalmzone.net/help/get-help/
ChildLine (childline.org.uk), for those 19 and under:
Voice: 0800-11-11 (Free to call, does not appear on phone bills)
Online Chat: http://www.childline.org.uk/Talk/Chat/Pages/OnlineChat.aspx
Email: http://www.childline.org.uk/Talk/Pages/Email.aspx
Directory of suicide-related services: http://www.supportline.org.uk/problems/suicide.php
Uruguay:
Landlines 0800 84 83 (7pm to 11 pm)
(FREE) 2400 84 83 (24/7)
Cell phone lines 095 738 483 *8483
1 [deleted] 2017-11-04
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