I am not sure which is more cringey, the litany of erroneous assumptions you splayed out or the act of calling upon the student archetype with the intent of derision. Anti-intellectualism, check. src
Thanks for creating this new sub. Finally we can get away from that MRA-lite shithole that is menslib that pretends "men" have even 1
or 2 "problems" that are not just a reflection of the twisted misogyny that forms their essence.
I think that it takes a lot of privilege to understand the concept of privilege. It is a deep, complex idea, shrouded in academic language that really isn't intuitive.
Well it is "shrouded" in "academic" language. But no, it's not deep and not complex. It's just a shit model.
The biggest factor in all of this is the internet allowing people to get together much more easily.
How can you be so fucking dumb as to think the biggest factor in the rise of the alt-right is the internet??? That's like saying the biggest factor in the rise of paedophilia is the internet, or the biggest factor in the rise of bullying is the internet. Newsflash - political extremism has been around for a fuck of a lot longer than the web, and it should be no surprise to learn that socially or economically alienated people are drawn to it.
The average reddit is too young to understand that, economically speaking, virtually every decade before the current one was vastly better for most Americans.
They think it's always been this way, but that white people are mythologizing the past to make it seem like it was better. It's the ignorance of youth, and very little else. But if you accept that ignorance as truth, then there really is no other way to explain the marked rise of extremism on all sides beyond 'the internet made it easier to find these ideas'. But the KKK didn't need the internet, and skinheads have existed for decades before it came to prominence.
You're right. It's the fact that a lot of people know, for a fact, that the country is going downhill. And everyone is looking for someone to blame for that--the 'elite' most of all want us to fight along racial and gender lines, because they're obviously the ones who have been making the decisions during that timeframe, and don't want the blame that's rightly due them.
Murders are super rare anyway. How many average salaries does it take to support a family in 2017 vs 1977? How many average salaries does it take to buy a house in an area where you can find jobs with those salaries? How did the median net income adjusted for inflation change over the years?
Yeah but you could argue the level is indicative of a wider cultural breakdown. It could be viewed as a bit of a 'canary in the coal-mine' so to speak. All these other things you mention are economic, not cultural.
This is the source, FWIW. I think it makes for an interesting, if rather speculative, read. Personally I think it seems kind of obvious Western society has gone downhill since the '50s and '60s. Almost nobody regards the current era as a boom period, do they. Even the '80s was better than this, and that's not saying much.
How did the median net income adjusted for inflation change over the years?
It's done quite well when taking benefits into account.
Things cost more now because people want nicer stuff. Houses weren't as nice in 1977. If people had the same standards as they did in 1977, they'd have more buying power.
The average reddit is too young to understand that, economically speaking, virtually every decade before the current one was vastly better for most Americans.
I don't know about 'vastly' better, but there was a time when both parents having to work was extremely rare, for example.
The 1950s-60s were an outlier golden age, though, when some highschool educated factory worker could earn enough to afford a large family, a house and a car all by himself.
That's your problem right there. You immediately assume that anyone who thinks differently is a "shitty person". How can you not understand that shitty experiences mould normal people into shitty people?
You think the cause is them just deciding to be shitty for no reason? That's the exact same logic the right apply to black people. Blacks are shitty people. BLM is just a shitty idea. Let's keep blacks isolated from that shitty idea. You are not smart homeboy.
The point is that one man's shitty person is another man's activist bravely fighting for his rights and survival. If you dismiss someone as "shitty" for doing what they believe in without even reflecting on how they came to have that point of view there is no discussion or possibility to redeem anyone.
That's why we can't escape this boring alt-right shitlord vs. SJW cuck paradigm. You're the shitty one for letting your narrow mindedness and pride get in the way.
The biggest factor in all of this is the internet allowing people to get together much more easily.
You now have people with ideas that wouldn't see the light of day in a normal society that found a place where they can actually express their ideas with people who think the same, ...
ideas like 70+ genders, every famous person in medieval europe was actually black, and diagreeing with me is a form of raep
>mfw I'm a male feminist in 2017, so I have to defend 48 hours livestreamed torture of a white kid until one person in the whole hood decided to report it.
The primary motivations people voted Trump are the exact same as the primary motivations for voting Clinton. Americans are fat and dumb and most voters will always vote for the same party no matter who's running.
GOP could run a pair of rusty pliers and Alabama would vote for it, Dems could run with a used tissue and California would eat it up. You've got to look at the swing voters if you truly want to see what affected the outcome of the election, and it was workers in the rust belt that the Democrats explicitly abandoned in favour of divisive bullshit idpol, the same people that voted for Obama's hope and change last time.
What really boils my butt is when people pretend only Republicans do it, where has decades of Democrat rule gotten Detroit, for example?
Full disclosure, I'm not a man, just a woman who cares about them, which definitely informs my thoughts -- I, like a lot of people, get a whole lot of responsibility heaped on me to save these poor lonely souls...
Do you want a cookie? You don't get a reward for being a decent human being... is what an SJW would say.
Imagine being a woman, spending your time shitting on men and telling them what worthless pieces of crud they are, but not getting paid $500 an hour for it, SMH
I mention my gender because I figure most men haven't had a ton of desperate, lonely sad dudes reach out to them for help, get more and more demanding of their time, and ultimately get to the 'if you don't fuck me it'll be your fault when I hurt some other girl' stage.
Those experiences do tend to give a person certain biases, which should be recognized, and so comments should be read through that lens. Explicitly outlining that lens seems like the fair thing to do.
I guess you must attract desperate, sad, lonely men. Perhaps you should go your own way. https://www.reddit.com/r/wgtow/ At least that way the men you associate with would learn not to waste your precious time.
Perhaps the best thing women can do for men is become feminists. That way men will quickly learn to avoid supporting or associating with women, and free themselves from gynocentrism.
Those experiences do tend to give a person certain biases...
Pff, what a cop-out. You remind me of someone rationalising their racism because they got mugged by black guys a few times, or whatever.
It's interesting that you believe me to be a feminist based on "it's not completely your fault if the person you're talking to becomes a flag-waving Nazi. You should absolutely do your best, but ultimately it's their decision."
Isn't that the opposite of leftist group think, respecting someone's agency in their own Nazification?
And you're not wrong about the rationalization. That's exactly why I try to make my biases clear, and indicate that 'hey, this perspective comes from a certain place, so keep that in mind.' Humans have biases, and I think it's really good practice to admit to yours when entering into a discussion, and then be open to changing them based on said discussion. Which might not be how you win an internet argument, but I think it's healthier than just doubling down and yelling about how feminism is cancer or the alt-right is cancer or whatever, without acknowledging that your personal experiences with it may be different than someone else's!
Apologies. I figured you wouldn't bring up something that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic unless you believed it applied to me or otherwise had some connection. I should not have assumed.
And again, agreed. Hence the full disclosure in my comment. Not saying "therefore these experiences are universal," saying, "here is where I am coming from, which is a subjective human experience and you should definitely keep that in mind when considering what I have to say." My perspective is definitely informed by many negative experiences.
That's not to say that I'm going to give up entirely, though. Rational, respectful discussion has resulted in some really good friendships and some really angry dudes (and chicks!) becoming happier, healthier, and not total douchenozzles. It's great when it happens. And I have no problems with being there for someone when they need me.
But, I also don't feel guilty, or like it's my fault, if the person goes full Nazi. They're an adult, and they made their decision. I feel this way based on the experiences that I have had, and indicated this in my comment.
I figured you wouldn't bring up something that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic
It had nothing to with the topic; it had to do with the context, because /r/MensLib is an explicitly feminist-oriented subreddit.
Rational, respectful discussion has resulted in some really good friendships and some really angry dudes (and chicks!) becoming happier, healthier, and not total douchenozzles.
Yeah, well, if you're so respectful of these 'desperate, lonely sad dudes', I think you should tell them that they are wasting their time and energy, and they should go their own way already.
Hah hah, we're just agreeing now. The whole context was 'it's not the Nazi's fault that he's a Nazi, people need to do more,' and the response was 'up to a point.' Beyond that point, yes, it's best to be clear, and not keep trying. Very much agreed.
Side note, there is no shame in being desperate, lonely or sad. Every single human being will go through periods of sadness, desperation, and loneliness. And shaming men for that is not an OK thing to do -- that's kind of a major tenant of Men's Lib.
But as soon as someone feels entitled to suck up all the time and resources they can, and then say 'look what you made me do, it's your fault that I support ethnic cleansing, because you didn't do enough for me'... Well, I still feel for them, but nah, I'm not going to accept that blame, and it's time to stop trying to help, because they've made their victim complex clear, and it is wise to focus on helping those who wish to be helped.
"I self-identify as a Nazi because you weren't nice enough to me" is unacceptable, incorrect, and frankly cowardly. Do you disagree with that? Because that was, and still is, my whole point.
I'm sorry that you've felt shamed. Truly, I am. A lot of people are shitty. Just look at most of the comments here!
But also, I do not accept that as a reason to become a Nazi, nor would I accept blame for that.
I'm not trying to convince you not to go your own way. Nobody has a responsibility to be in a particular kind of relationship. If going your own way works for you and makes you happy, that's awesome! ...Just as long as you're not actually hurting anyone. Which I figure you aren't, most people aren't and don't. (Or at least, are baseline shitty and don't go out of their way to be shitty.)
Also, my bad on the tenant/tenet thing, auto-correct occasionally slips one past me despite my best efforts. Or I just fat-fingered it, totally possible.
"I self-identify as a Nazi because you weren't nice enough to me" is unacceptable, incorrect, and frankly cowardly.
So what are you going to do about it?
I'm not trying to convince you not to go your own way. Nobody has a responsibility to be in a particular kind of relationship. If going your own way works for you and makes you happy, that's awesome! ...Just as long as you're not actually hurting anyone. Which I figure you aren't, most people aren't and don't.
I wasn't talking about what I personally should or shouldn't do, I was talking about the lonely guys you know that mentioned.
Well, I mean, I'm going to do exactly what I did about it, I think.
When someone says "it's really not the Nazi's fault they're a Nazi," I'm going to say "Look there are factors involved, but ultimately the buck stops with them." And I'm going to be prepared to discuss that. And so here we are.
The whole lonely dudes going their own way thing goes for any hypothetical or non-hypothetical guy. It's a terrible and ineffective thing to pin all one's happiness to a relationship, and if someone swearing off relationships entirely helps them to find self-fulfilled happiness (and, you know, not become Nazis...), I think that can only be a good thing for them and for the world.
And people are shitty sometimes, what can I say. Shitty feminists shame men for being inadequate. Shitty alt-righters demand sex from women and then blame them women for not being in to them, or throw huge tantrums and then blame everyone but themselves for becoming Nazis. Shitty people gonna be shitty, and I was expressing sympathy that you (although I now see you were being hypothetical) had bad experiences with shitty people.
That kind of repetition (where every single adjective is the same) is a really common rhetorical device, hah hah.
It's usually used to underscore a point and link concepts together in a way that "shitty feminists" and "abhorrent alt-righters" just wouldn't. No worries, though, I see that there's a way in which that could have been subtle.
And the entire point of the first post was how we can't be upset with men who are rejected by people for whatever reason, and turn to the alt-right to comfort them. The alt-right that contains the red pill and incels.
That aside, I was trying to express sympathy for you (sorry, hypothetical Lonelyman) having had bad experiences with feminists and clarifying, since you apparently had no idea what I could mean by 'a lot of people are shitty.'
So, let me be even more clear: "Stereotypically awful examples of leftist behavior include women shaming men for their feelings. This is probably not indicative of the vast majority, but it is a handy shorthand for the purposes of my expressing sympathy for you in this moment. Likewise, in the broader context of our earlier discussion, stereotypically terrible alt-right behavior includes advocating for ethnic cleansing and demanding that women sleep with them, then blaming women who won't for their radicalization. This is also probably not indicative of the vast majority, but it is a handy shorthand for the purposes of my expressing sympathy for you in this moment."
We've also gotten so far from the original point that you're brushing up against the 'time to quit and not feel guilty about it' boundary, hah hah.
It's interesting how 4chan and /b/ have affected the political landscape, because pretty much all of this shit can be traced back to there, plus a few other internet shit holes.
Of course you want to reach out to young men of the alt right, but there are obstacles in the way. The solution is then to reach around instead. We can only stop the rise of the alt right if we reach around with vigor and hold on tight to our goals of a better tomorrow.
/u/FJyKsgqDsn I'm not sure how a woman in a western country can talk about other groups privilege, particularly if they're a white woman. Literally the most privileged group in history living in the most privileged place. Please check your privilege
/u/Fat_Fred if you're a man who's having trouble in life, especially a white man, you're a pathetic fucking loser who should be mocked to suicide. Being a white dude in society is life on ez mode, it's pretty great and things go my way easily.
I figure you probably didn't read much of the thread, but hey, reaching out and practicing empathy is indeed a great thing to do. So, hello there.
My reply was in response to the trend (as expressed in the comment I replied to) of demanding loads of empathy, attention, and energy, and then saying "you didn't do enough, and this is why I did X." Which is especially fun because the left is supposed to be the party that hates to take personal responsibility!
There are many people who do not do this, of course. (#notallal-righters?) However, it didn't seem necessary to completely qualify and individually name every single person I wasn't talking about, in a comment responding specifically to the idea that others are completely responsible for your actions.
Every time this discussion comes up with my liberal friends, I tell them the same thing - the day identity politics is wiped out from the left is the day I defect from the conservative movement and rejoin progressives.
So it's amazing to see progressives constantly denying that people like me exist. "If they vote Trump, they might be helplessly racist. Identity politics has nothing to do with it," they say. Apparently I must be a unicorn, a mythical creature like a griffin or anthropomorphic frog.
sigh I"m sorry for seriousposting either. Normally I find this stuff funny, but sometimes it's just so depressing, you know? I mean, I used to be liberal, and I still would be, if they hadn't lost their way so badly. And judging from the stupidity evident in the linked thread, it'll take them decades to change course.
The only issue I personally have with this is that for a lot of people saying what you say, "identity politics" means bringing up any social issues whatsoever regardless of their validity. Like, the concern that black people recieve harsher sentences for the same crimes is a valid one. Would you call that identity politics?
A large part of what makes identity politics so toxic is the deeply flawed idea that your gender, orientation, or race are more important than your actions. For example, when a white man says something hateful about blacks, that's racism, but when a black man says something hateful about whites, liberals support it because "that's punching up rather than punching down." The idea that bigotry is somehow more tolerable when it comes from a position of weakness rather than a position of strength is frankly insane.
So I'm totally fine with social justice movements that try to establish fair treatment for minorities, as long as they police their extremists well and punish them for saying horrible stuff. When a woman or minority (for instance) posts something on Twitter such as "Fuck White Men" I expect them to be called out as racist/sexist, humilated, and fired - just as a white guy would be if the roles were reversed. Racism and sexism in all shapes needs to be exterminated wherever it rears its ugly head - and lately, it's the left that is more guilty of bigotry and hate. Notice how they always close ranks to defend or excuse their bigots under the guise of "punching up."
Does that seem reasonable to you? I fought for equality back when I was liberal so that racism and sexism would be eliminated from society entirely - not so that the bigotry could continue but with the roles reversed. Either we agree to punish all racists and sexists regardless of their background, or we should make all speech 100% consequence-free and let both the Nazis and Antifa say whatever they want without consequences. I'm fine either way, I just don't like the double standard.
What about the large number of white people who are immigrants? It's neither retributive nor restorative justice to expect them to make amends for a system that they had no hand in and never benefitted from. It's completely unjust by any metric. We walked into a country where race relations were already deeply fucked up long before we ever got here, and the "Social Justice" left seems to expect us to cheerfully accept the role of "bad guy who needs to atone" in this bizarre drama. Then they wonder why we would prefer the alt-right?
It's like they're actively saying "Hey, you can either vote for me or the neo-nazi... but before you decide, let me spit on you a few times so that you're totally familiar with my platform."
The large number of white people who are immigrants also still to this day receive a major systemic advantage over non-whites, this is made clear every single time any sort of study on economic opportunity or policing or upward mobility is done and there are thousands of them that all reach that same conclusion.
Now you'll notice that I didn't excuse anyone on the left of this behavior, remember that when thinking of your response.
I agree with you - what you are describing is basically the justification for affirmative action. But prejudice goes down over time, and the structures in place to counterbalance it need to be reevaluated to prevent "reverse racism." For example, if a person receives the equivalent of $100k in advantages from affirmative action, that might be equitable in a time period where there is a substantial bigotry against hiring such people. Giving them the same advantages in a time period where there is substantially less bigotry is not equity - it is reverse discrimination, because it compensates them more than the structural damage inflicted by racism.
So if progressives were willing to work with conservatives to create metrics that quantify systemic disadvantage and gradually reduce AA when certain goalposts are reached, we would be in complete agreement. I have seen no indication of any willingness from progressives to do that. All the studies appear to be run by flaming liberals who cut corners in their research to reach a politically motivated conclusion. This is unsurprising, since literally 98% of sociologists (not exaggerating) are liberal and conservatives report prejudice and discrimation which tends to drive them from the field.
AA was always intended to be a temporary measure, gradually reduced over time. The fact that no research from any credible non-partisan sources has been done to quantify it, implies a certain lack of honesty regarding progressive motives in this matter.
Personally I feel like Affirmative Action is still needed to combat structural prejudice, but if the left isn't willing to compromise and give a specific timetable for winding it down, then you should not be surprised or angry when people get upset about it and want to wind it down prematurely.
I'm not sure if I adequately addressed your point. Did I?
ironic coming from someone who believes white people are at risk of being on the worse end of racial discrimination. Sjws dont matter, they barely effect anything, and you’ll barely see them if you cut back on your internet usage, nerd
All I believe is that society should be totally colorblind. The fact that you're opposed to that is pretty concerning, to be honest. Tell me more about this "progressiveness," preferably in a way that doesn't make you sound like a giant racist. I mean, any more than you already are.
I'm in the same boat, and I think there's more like us than many people suspect. I'm completely on board with eliminating discrimination by race/gender, and treating everyone equally. What I'm not on board with is perpetuating discrimination by race/gender in the name of equity, and moving white men to the bottom of the discrimination stack until adequate reparations have been made for the faults of our ancestors. Over the last decade or so I've watched the left rapidly shift from supporting the former to supporting the latter, and I don't see myself supporting left wing candidates until that trend reverses. You could point out, quite correctly, that the modern right is equally mired in identity politics, but if all my choices are playing the identity politics game, I might as well support the side that's going to bat for my identity categories.
Well said, I agree 100%. It's funny because modern progressives like to frame themselves as "being on the right side of history," but I suspect that history will actually remember them as a bunch of nasty bigots (similar to the Christian Right that used to censor people in the name of decency). That Antifa or BLM protestor shutting down conservative speakers in the name of "no platforming" is one day going to be seen as that crazy racist uncle whom nobody wants to talk to at family gatherings.
What exactly is your exact problem? What about "identity politics" bothers You? All you really say is "I don't like it and I do exist".
What are liberals saying that you're upset about to the degree that you could go against apparently ALL your other politcal ideas to support someone else?
My proilem is that liberals are basically saying that it's OK for people to be bigoted against me, because of my gender and race. In fact they actively support the racists and sexists who say horrible things about white men.
How hard is that to understand? My platform when I was a liberal was "people who say horribly racist shit need to be destroyed with extreme prejudice." My platform as a conservative is exactly the same, it's just that the racism started coming from the other side of the political spectrum. I do not believe in the toxic philosophy of "punching up vs. punching down" and I simply want to maximize the number of bigots getting hurt. I switch sides as necessary to make that happen.
Are you hurting yet, bigot? I sincerely hope so. I'd hate to vote for another four years of Trump, but if that's what it takes to make people like you into the scum of society, then them's the breaks I guess.
Google "White Men Suck." Read the links, then ask yourself why the people saying this horribly racist and bigoted stuff have not been fired yet.
It's hard to understand because I don't see anyone actualky saying this stuff.
That's because you're either too stupid to do a basic Google search or you simply don't want to look, so that you have plausible deniability. Than way when people point out this bigoted stuff, you can take on a stupid look and act utterly shocked, much as you are doing now.
Who is bigoted agaisnt you?
I just gave you an easy way to find out. Either use it or STFU.
To be more precise even...you actually you called me a bigot, it seems...what have I said that was bigoted?
The fact that you are denying the existence of the numerous and easily verifiable examples of racism and bigotry from the Left indicate that either you are the stupidest person alive, or you are an apologist for this unacceptably racist and sexist behavior. I'm assuming that it's the latter option, since the idea that millennials are too dumb to use Google is so frighteningly realistic that it makes my eyes twitch.
So "google white men suck" is your answer? You would google "x sucks" for anything and get a ton of answers of people that haven't been fired for it? That's the internet...
Lolol...i googled it.
Most of the links are white men, it seems saying "white men have done some bad things" and listing them in small stories that no one has read or cares about.
Seems to be more some blogs that no one pays attention to.
And they seem to have nothing really to do with the democrat party...lol
And if these are "racist" then trump is a huge racist peice of shit...right? He's said WAY worse than these folks do about mexicans.
Let me guess, you don't see that? Lol
Yeah, you pay more attention to microblogbers with 5 hits than the ptesident you vote for. We get it.
And yeah, since I'm not obsessed with people that no one listens to or knows about...that means I'm Racist...lol...great job.
Look...there are always going to be some racist out there somewhere...if you look hard enough on the internet.
But how can "liberals" stop them? Lol...we cant.
Too bad you don't have a real reason to vote and you think this is one and you LIE...FLAT OUT LIE...about liberals supporting this shit.
Let me be clear - I have neither the time nor the inclination to educate you about your own prejudice. I gave you a very simple way to educate yourself and instead of doing so, you're coming up with a million No True Scotsman reasons why none of these examples of racism/sexism "count."
It isn't my goal to educate bigots like you, simply to eliminate them. If you would prefer to be in a state of perpetual surprise as to why so many voters loathe people like you and are willing to vote for any politician willing to hurt you (regardless of said politician's flaws) then that is your prerogative. The outcome will ultimately be the same either way.
Hopefully they respond how cute and naive you are, purposefully belonging to the original identity politics group that had fucking purity tests and ran constantly on "identity politics" platforms like "my opponent says he's a Christian, but you and I both know he's not a true Christian like us.".. Were you just not born yet in the 70's and 80's and too lazy to learn about recent political history?
It's ok, I'm sure the problem is some people calling you racist, not the actual right wing voters that again and again for the last 50+ years have consistently voted for people that readily admit they're going to fuck them over.. Seriously these people used identity politics in the 80's to make righties literally vote against their own basic self interest, because you wouldn't want your kids to turn into "ivory tower liberal elites" or anything, so you shouldn't send them to college.. That was literally an "argument" used by the right in the 80's, you and other right wing voters are merely a product of the demonization of dissent and education.
Oh and the right has been using every slur in the book on liberals as long as this shit has been recorded, so if you're so turned off because people call you racist for voting for obviously racist candidates you're probably also a conservatard dickfuck nazi loving cock gobbler too.
Hope I didn't hurt your feelings, we all know how much conservatives have cared about the feelings of others over the past 50 years!
You seem to be in the wrong sub, friend. I can't help you coalesce your hateful and disjointed ramblings about things that happened 50 years ago into anything even vaguely resembling a coherent narrative about problems of our modern era. If you're looking for help (and I don't blame you!) please try r/toastmasters.
this seriousposting is lame and you are weak. You shouldn’t come to r/drama to laugh, you should come to be disgusted. Also, if I had to guess, youre extremely casual towards politics and don’t have strong ideals, you just like articles with pretty pictures and snappy headlines. My review of you as a person: GAY
There is a lot of discussion on the left about how the Trump's support and the alt-right is a form of white identity politics, with the implication that white identity politics is bad. They always dance around admitting that they don't really have a problem with identity politics, just with white people engaging in it.
Honestly, if your response to identity politics is to become an honest to God NeoNazi sympathizer, I almost wonder how much the average Joe could've done to "save" you from that.
The menslibbers over there are performing the old Motte and Bailey trick:
on one hand: the "alt-right" are literal nazis who would totally genocide everyone if they had any power. (maybe 0.3% of the US)
on the other hand: pretty much every gamer, every trump supporter, and everyone who thinks SJWs are pieces of shit is supposed to also be "alt-right" (~50% of the US)
/u/fala1 Just admit that incels, legbeards and male feminists are full of hate and resentment entirely because they are bad at being their gender and want to bring everyone else down to their level.
Look, I just explained all gender politics. kthxbye
153 comments
1 SnapshillBot 2017-11-16
I am not sure which is more cringey, the litany of erroneous assumptions you splayed out or the act of calling upon the student archetype with the intent of derision. Anti-intellectualism, check. src
Snapshots:
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1 Ultrashitpost 2017-11-16
Is /r/menslib worth saving?
1 Stuntman119 2017-11-16
Disgusting, sexist pigs. Where is /r/womenslib?
1 Stuntman119 2017-11-16
/u/bostonbob1987 you disgust me with your anti-womyn speech and toxic masculinity. Kys.
1 Randydandy69 2017-11-16
For drama purposes, yes.
1 bishlasagna 2017-11-16
Nah. They're pro-feminist, so we should probably drown them before they rape someone.
1 a_normal_human 2017-11-16
Where else can bulls find guys to cuck?
1 Diogenes2XLantern 2017-11-16
They're the feminist take on the "crisis pregnancy center" concept. Offer help, deliver propaganda.
No, no they aren't.
1 aonome 2017-11-16
Reminder to use /r/menslib2, the superior version
1 Randydandy69 2017-11-16
There is no such subreddit
1 aonome 2017-11-16
There is, I'm the mod
1 Randydandy69 2017-11-16
Are you like u/CicerosAssassin ?
1 aonome 2017-11-16
No, I have more respect for myself than that.
1 Randydandy69 2017-11-16
You say this as you reply to me on r/Drama
1 aonome 2017-11-16
It's not a high bar though
1 S994 2017-11-16
Thanks for creating this new sub. Finally we can get away from that MRA-lite shithole that is menslib that pretends "men" have even 1 or 2 "problems" that are not just a reflection of the twisted misogyny that forms their essence.
1 umar4812 2017-11-16
Heard of r/mensrights
1 S994 2017-11-16
You mean the headquarters of the patriarchy within the western hemisphere? Yes, I'm aware.
1 Nathan-Pocket 2017-11-16
If the vast majority of MRAs and Rad-Fems could just go away that'd be great.
1 Randydandy69 2017-11-16
They never will, gender wars are he season that never ends, then the victorious shall ascend to gender Valhalla
1 MakeAmericaSageAgain 2017-11-16
Gynocide when?
1 Randydandy69 2017-11-16
No no, genocide is never the answer
1 Nathan-Pocket 2017-11-16
Gendercide?
1 Randydandy69 2017-11-16
How about mayocide. It's well known the mayo is extremely unhealthy, we must destroy it completely
1 Nathan-Pocket 2017-11-16
Mayocide is always the best solution to any problem
1 heavenlytoaster 2017-11-16
Of course, genocide is targeted, a real answer kills any and all things indiscriminately
1 menvaren 2017-11-16
Do they think that a menslib poster reaching out & providing an example won't just turn more people away?
1 DickingBimbos247 2017-11-16
/u/FJyKsgqDsn
Well it is "shrouded" in "academic" language. But no, it's not deep and not complex. It's just a shit model.
1 cuteman 2017-11-16
Nothing like needing a degree to understand how you should feel guilty.
The clergy doesn't have anything and these people pushing neo original sin.
1 Cephaliarch 2017-11-16
why does that statement remind me of this article
https://www.theonion.com/man-finally-put-in-charge-of-struggling-feminist-moveme-1819569515
1 Trapsarntgay1 2017-11-16
1 PM_ME_FREE_FOOD 2017-11-16
Privilege is the Rick and Morty of societal interpretations
1 [deleted] 2017-11-16
[deleted]
1 DickingBimbos247 2017-11-16
/u/Fala1
imagine being this retarded.
1 double-happiness 2017-11-16
How can you be so fucking dumb as to think the biggest factor in the rise of the alt-right is the internet??? That's like saying the biggest factor in the rise of paedophilia is the internet, or the biggest factor in the rise of bullying is the internet. Newsflash - political extremism has been around for a fuck of a lot longer than the web, and it should be no surprise to learn that socially or economically alienated people are drawn to it.
1 TherapyFortheRapy 2017-11-16
The average reddit is too young to understand that, economically speaking, virtually every decade before the current one was vastly better for most Americans.
They think it's always been this way, but that white people are mythologizing the past to make it seem like it was better. It's the ignorance of youth, and very little else. But if you accept that ignorance as truth, then there really is no other way to explain the marked rise of extremism on all sides beyond 'the internet made it easier to find these ideas'. But the KKK didn't need the internet, and skinheads have existed for decades before it came to prominence.
You're right. It's the fact that a lot of people know, for a fact, that the country is going downhill. And everyone is looking for someone to blame for that--the 'elite' most of all want us to fight along racial and gender lines, because they're obviously the ones who have been making the decisions during that timeframe, and don't want the blame that's rightly due them.
1 double-happiness 2017-11-16
Yeah, the US has been fucked since the '60s, IMHO. https://quod.lib.umich.edu/h/humfig/images/11217607.0002.206-00000002.jpg
1 73696D756C6174696F6E 2017-11-16
Short ELI5 link?
1 gez_muss_weg 2017-11-16
Murders are super rare anyway. How many average salaries does it take to support a family in 2017 vs 1977? How many average salaries does it take to buy a house in an area where you can find jobs with those salaries? How did the median net income adjusted for inflation change over the years?
1 double-happiness 2017-11-16
Yeah but you could argue the level is indicative of a wider cultural breakdown. It could be viewed as a bit of a 'canary in the coal-mine' so to speak. All these other things you mention are economic, not cultural.
This is the source, FWIW. I think it makes for an interesting, if rather speculative, read. Personally I think it seems kind of obvious Western society has gone downhill since the '50s and '60s. Almost nobody regards the current era as a boom period, do they. Even the '80s was better than this, and that's not saying much.
1 Mort_DeRire 2017-11-16
It's done quite well when taking benefits into account.
Things cost more now because people want nicer stuff. Houses weren't as nice in 1977. If people had the same standards as they did in 1977, they'd have more buying power.
1 kane4life4ever 2017-11-16
george bush and his diasterous military plans and actions; barack obama and his divisive identiy politics; and lastely trump. Yeah america is fucked.
1 Chicup 2017-11-16
1 FuckingWrites 2017-11-16
tbh I think I feel safer around Male Feminists than Trump Supporters
1 DisposableDoc 2017-11-16
You should move to Europe then.
1 FuckingWrites 2017-11-16
I don't live in America?
1 DisposableDoc 2017-11-16
good
1 FuckingWrites 2017-11-16
lol sick burn, and four days late too. nice form. why don't you go back to the ship yard and unload shit, you GED having neanderthal.
1 DisposableDoc 2017-11-16
nuh uh
1 BigLordShiggot 2017-11-16
That depends on whether you are a woman or an illegal alien.
1 Mort_DeRire 2017-11-16
lmao this is horse shit
1 Thulean-Dragon 2017-11-16
I don't know about 'vastly' better, but there was a time when both parents having to work was extremely rare, for example.
The 1950s-60s were an outlier golden age, though, when some highschool educated factory worker could earn enough to afford a large family, a house and a car all by himself.
1 Fala1 2017-11-16
It's a catalyst, not a cause.
Shitty people with shitty ideas have always existed. But isolation keeps terrible ideas from shitty people at bay.
Things like groupthink and group polarization were already problematic before the internet, but have since gotten many times worse.
1 double-happiness 2017-11-16
Exactly, 'catalyst' is just the word I would use; I was thinking that actually.
They're like the fucking Christian right in the '80s... "Violent vidya games r causing the breakdown of society, beep boop"
1 Thulean-Dragon 2017-11-16
'Video games turn you into a violent criminal!' - religious conservative soccer mum, circa 1990s
'Video games turn you into a sexist rapist!' - some neon-hair of dubious gender, circa current year
1 ChateauJack 2017-11-16
You do know that in 2 clicks, there's your entire r/circlebroke2 history displaying, right?
1 Fala1 2017-11-16
I thought going through post histories was something only cb2-ers did?
1 ChateauJack 2017-11-16
I do it with lolcows generally.
Also to confirm my bias against CBrokes.
1 BigLordShiggot 2017-11-16
Why would you even have an opinion about what internet posters do?
1 MakeAmericaSageAgain 2017-11-16
That's your problem right there. You immediately assume that anyone who thinks differently is a "shitty person". How can you not understand that shitty experiences mould normal people into shitty people?
You think the cause is them just deciding to be shitty for no reason? That's the exact same logic the right apply to black people. Blacks are shitty people. BLM is just a shitty idea. Let's keep blacks isolated from that shitty idea. You are not smart homeboy.
1 Fala1 2017-11-16
If you act like a shitty person, then you are a shitty person. Doesn't mean you're irredeemable or anything.
1 MakeAmericaSageAgain 2017-11-16
The point is that one man's shitty person is another man's activist bravely fighting for his rights and survival. If you dismiss someone as "shitty" for doing what they believe in without even reflecting on how they came to have that point of view there is no discussion or possibility to redeem anyone.
That's why we can't escape this boring alt-right shitlord vs. SJW cuck paradigm. You're the shitty one for letting your narrow mindedness and pride get in the way.
1 StrawRedditor 2017-11-16
And I suppose you think that you aren't a shitty person, and no one could possibly think of you as a shitty person?
1 Fala1 2017-11-16
Oh no, there definitely are people that won't like me and think I'm shitty.
But they will most likely post on /drama so who the fuck cares lol
1 elwombat 2017-11-16
What kind of brain damage do you have that this makes sense to you?
1 Fala1 2017-11-16
I can spell it out for you it that helps?
1 elwombat 2017-11-16
Like, do you not see that you're saying the exact thing they are but with a different perspective?
1 Fala1 2017-11-16
Oh sorry, I was under the impression that this subreddit was for shitposting
1 BigLordShiggot 2017-11-16
1 PM_ME_FREE_FOOD 2017-11-16
I would be okay with banning you from the internet
1 -Drama_Llama- 2017-11-16
1 BigLordShiggot 2017-11-16
But you are the shitty person.
1 Fala1 2017-11-16
I don't think you have to imagine :)
1 DickingBimbos247 2017-11-16
ideas like 70+ genders, every famous person in medieval europe was actually black, and diagreeing with me is a form of raep
1 Fala1 2017-11-16
Try not to get too upset okay?
1 DickingBimbos247 2017-11-16
why would i be mad?
1 TraurigAberWahr 2017-11-16
unironically posting in CB2, pretending to not be upset 24/7
1 GhostFaceShiller 2017-11-16
REEEEEEEEEE BLACK PEOPLE!
1 DickingBimbos247 2017-11-16
>mfw I'm a male feminist in 2017, so I have to defend 48 hours livestreamed torture of a white kid until one person in the whole hood decided to report it.
1 ay_what_up 2017-11-16
restrain yourself mayo, if your tantrum gets too annoying I’ll have to bring out the whip
1 Thulean-Dragon 2017-11-16
Nice feac friendo :)
1 Bronafide 2017-11-16
At the same time thinking that the primary motivations for anyone who voted Daddy are racism and sexism.
1 Thulean-Dragon 2017-11-16
The primary motivations people voted Trump are the exact same as the primary motivations for voting Clinton. Americans are fat and dumb and most voters will always vote for the same party no matter who's running.
GOP could run a pair of rusty pliers and Alabama would vote for it, Dems could run with a used tissue and California would eat it up. You've got to look at the swing voters if you truly want to see what affected the outcome of the election, and it was workers in the rust belt that the Democrats explicitly abandoned in favour of divisive bullshit idpol, the same people that voted for Obama's hope and change last time.
What really boils my butt is when people pretend only Republicans do it, where has decades of Democrat rule gotten Detroit, for example?
1 pitterpatterwater 2017-11-16
1 [deleted] 2017-11-16
[deleted]
1 DickingBimbos247 2017-11-16
/u/mach-2
imagine being this retarded
1 AnnoyingSeaAnt 2017-11-16
It's mach-2 , what did you expect?
1 Deutschbag_ 2017-11-16
If you're expecting anything from /u/mach-2 except abject retardation with the occasional bullshit word salad thrown in, you're in for disappointment.
1 double-happiness 2017-11-16
Do you want a cookie? You don't get a reward for being a decent human being... is what an SJW would say.
1 DickingBimbos247 2017-11-16
but /u/kaizen-apprentice is an oppressed wombyn, you can't hold her to the same standards. that would be equality, which is an alt-right value.
1 umar4812 2017-11-16
What a surprise.
1 double-happiness 2017-11-16
Imagine being a woman, spending your time shitting on men and telling them what worthless pieces of crud they are, but not getting paid $500 an hour for it, SMH
1 becauseiliketoupvote 2017-11-16
I mean, it's not hard for a woman to make that kind of dough for such a kinky fetish.
1 kaizen-apprentice 2017-11-16
I mention my gender because I figure most men haven't had a ton of desperate, lonely sad dudes reach out to them for help, get more and more demanding of their time, and ultimately get to the 'if you don't fuck me it'll be your fault when I hurt some other girl' stage.
Those experiences do tend to give a person certain biases, which should be recognized, and so comments should be read through that lens. Explicitly outlining that lens seems like the fair thing to do.
1 double-happiness 2017-11-16
I guess you must attract desperate, sad, lonely men. Perhaps you should go your own way. https://www.reddit.com/r/wgtow/ At least that way the men you associate with would learn not to waste your precious time.
Perhaps the best thing women can do for men is become feminists. That way men will quickly learn to avoid supporting or associating with women, and free themselves from gynocentrism.
Pff, what a cop-out. You remind me of someone rationalising their racism because they got mugged by black guys a few times, or whatever.
1 kaizen-apprentice 2017-11-16
It's interesting that you believe me to be a feminist based on "it's not completely your fault if the person you're talking to becomes a flag-waving Nazi. You should absolutely do your best, but ultimately it's their decision."
Isn't that the opposite of leftist group think, respecting someone's agency in their own Nazification?
And you're not wrong about the rationalization. That's exactly why I try to make my biases clear, and indicate that 'hey, this perspective comes from a certain place, so keep that in mind.' Humans have biases, and I think it's really good practice to admit to yours when entering into a discussion, and then be open to changing them based on said discussion. Which might not be how you win an internet argument, but I think it's healthier than just doubling down and yelling about how feminism is cancer or the alt-right is cancer or whatever, without acknowledging that your personal experiences with it may be different than someone else's!
1 double-happiness 2017-11-16
Where did I say that?
Sure, but admitting your biases when entering into a discussion, and blaming your biases on your 'experiences', are two different things.
1 kaizen-apprentice 2017-11-16
Apologies. I figured you wouldn't bring up something that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic unless you believed it applied to me or otherwise had some connection. I should not have assumed.
And again, agreed. Hence the full disclosure in my comment. Not saying "therefore these experiences are universal," saying, "here is where I am coming from, which is a subjective human experience and you should definitely keep that in mind when considering what I have to say." My perspective is definitely informed by many negative experiences.
That's not to say that I'm going to give up entirely, though. Rational, respectful discussion has resulted in some really good friendships and some really angry dudes (and chicks!) becoming happier, healthier, and not total douchenozzles. It's great when it happens. And I have no problems with being there for someone when they need me.
But, I also don't feel guilty, or like it's my fault, if the person goes full Nazi. They're an adult, and they made their decision. I feel this way based on the experiences that I have had, and indicated this in my comment.
1 double-happiness 2017-11-16
It had nothing to with the topic; it had to do with the context, because /r/MensLib is an explicitly feminist-oriented subreddit.
Yeah, well, if you're so respectful of these 'desperate, lonely sad dudes', I think you should tell them that they are wasting their time and energy, and they should go their own way already.
1 kaizen-apprentice 2017-11-16
Hah hah, we're just agreeing now. The whole context was 'it's not the Nazi's fault that he's a Nazi, people need to do more,' and the response was 'up to a point.' Beyond that point, yes, it's best to be clear, and not keep trying. Very much agreed.
Side note, there is no shame in being desperate, lonely or sad. Every single human being will go through periods of sadness, desperation, and loneliness. And shaming men for that is not an OK thing to do -- that's kind of a major tenant of Men's Lib.
But as soon as someone feels entitled to suck up all the time and resources they can, and then say 'look what you made me do, it's your fault that I support ethnic cleansing, because you didn't do enough for me'... Well, I still feel for them, but nah, I'm not going to accept that blame, and it's time to stop trying to help, because they've made their victim complex clear, and it is wise to focus on helping those who wish to be helped.
1 double-happiness 2017-11-16
Then why do women (and feminists in particular, I suspect) shame men for being desperate, lonely or sad? Case in point
Tenet, I think you mean. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/tenet
But the problem is that Men's Lib is a feminist subreddit, and IMO there's not much has made men lonelier than feminism.
Yeah, you're right, men drawing attention to their victimhood (real or not) will get us nowhere; we should go our own way instead.
1 kaizen-apprentice 2017-11-16
"I self-identify as a Nazi because you weren't nice enough to me" is unacceptable, incorrect, and frankly cowardly. Do you disagree with that? Because that was, and still is, my whole point.
I'm sorry that you've felt shamed. Truly, I am. A lot of people are shitty. Just look at most of the comments here!
But also, I do not accept that as a reason to become a Nazi, nor would I accept blame for that.
I'm not trying to convince you not to go your own way. Nobody has a responsibility to be in a particular kind of relationship. If going your own way works for you and makes you happy, that's awesome! ...Just as long as you're not actually hurting anyone. Which I figure you aren't, most people aren't and don't. (Or at least, are baseline shitty and don't go out of their way to be shitty.)
Also, my bad on the tenant/tenet thing, auto-correct occasionally slips one past me despite my best efforts. Or I just fat-fingered it, totally possible.
1 double-happiness 2017-11-16
So what are you going to do about it?
I wasn't talking about what I personally should or shouldn't do, I was talking about the lonely guys you know that mentioned.
1 kaizen-apprentice 2017-11-16
Well, I mean, I'm going to do exactly what I did about it, I think.
When someone says "it's really not the Nazi's fault they're a Nazi," I'm going to say "Look there are factors involved, but ultimately the buck stops with them." And I'm going to be prepared to discuss that. And so here we are.
The whole lonely dudes going their own way thing goes for any hypothetical or non-hypothetical guy. It's a terrible and ineffective thing to pin all one's happiness to a relationship, and if someone swearing off relationships entirely helps them to find self-fulfilled happiness (and, you know, not become Nazis...), I think that can only be a good thing for them and for the world.
And people are shitty sometimes, what can I say. Shitty feminists shame men for being inadequate. Shitty alt-righters demand sex from women and then blame them women for not being in to them, or throw huge tantrums and then blame everyone but themselves for becoming Nazis. Shitty people gonna be shitty, and I was expressing sympathy that you (although I now see you were being hypothetical) had bad experiences with shitty people.
1 double-happiness 2017-11-16
Have you got any evidence of that happening, more than it does in the general population?
http://i.imgur.com/u1TQ9Lb.gif
1 kaizen-apprentice 2017-11-16
That kind of repetition (where every single adjective is the same) is a really common rhetorical device, hah hah.
It's usually used to underscore a point and link concepts together in a way that "shitty feminists" and "abhorrent alt-righters" just wouldn't. No worries, though, I see that there's a way in which that could have been subtle.
And the entire point of the first post was how we can't be upset with men who are rejected by people for whatever reason, and turn to the alt-right to comfort them. The alt-right that contains the red pill and incels.
That aside, I was trying to express sympathy for you (sorry, hypothetical Lonelyman) having had bad experiences with feminists and clarifying, since you apparently had no idea what I could mean by 'a lot of people are shitty.'
So, let me be even more clear: "Stereotypically awful examples of leftist behavior include women shaming men for their feelings. This is probably not indicative of the vast majority, but it is a handy shorthand for the purposes of my expressing sympathy for you in this moment. Likewise, in the broader context of our earlier discussion, stereotypically terrible alt-right behavior includes advocating for ethnic cleansing and demanding that women sleep with them, then blaming women who won't for their radicalization. This is also probably not indicative of the vast majority, but it is a handy shorthand for the purposes of my expressing sympathy for you in this moment."
We've also gotten so far from the original point that you're brushing up against the 'time to quit and not feel guilty about it' boundary, hah hah.
1 DickingBimbos247 2017-11-16
/u/raziphel
Why are man-hating hams always so bad at logic?
1 Thot_Crusher 2017-11-16
Brain don't work 2 gud onna counta it's fulla fat
1 cuteman 2017-11-16
Just like /r/menslib can be traced to the geniuses of /r/againstmensrights
1 umar4812 2017-11-16
Really makes you think.
1 becauseiliketoupvote 2017-11-16
No it doesn't.
1 Thulean-Dragon 2017-11-16
/b/? /b/ hasn't given a shit about anything or produced any OC in about a decade, it's 90% porn and furfag threads nowadays.
1 take_a_dumpling 2017-11-16
Of course you want to reach out to young men of the alt right, but there are obstacles in the way. The solution is then to reach around instead. We can only stop the rise of the alt right if we reach around with vigor and hold on tight to our goals of a better tomorrow.
1 Randydandy69 2017-11-16
r/mgtowwom
1 umar4812 2017-11-16
/r/wgtow
1 Randydandy69 2017-11-16
Ew
1 boyoyoyoyong 2017-11-16
/u/FJyKsgqDsn I'm not sure how a woman in a western country can talk about other groups privilege, particularly if they're a white woman. Literally the most privileged group in history living in the most privileged place. Please check your privilege
1 JumbledFun 2017-11-16
/u/Fat_Fred if you're a man who's having trouble in life, especially a white man, you're a pathetic fucking loser who should be mocked to suicide. Being a white dude in society is life on ez mode, it's pretty great and things go my way easily.
1 Fat_Fred 2017-11-16
I'll an hero if you an hero, bby. Post bussy first, though.
1 JumbledFun 2017-11-16
now you get it
1 nmx179 2017-11-16
u/kaizen-apprentice maybe you should try that empathy the left is always talking about, instead of lazily dismissing people via hateful caricatures.
1 kaizen-apprentice 2017-11-16
I figure you probably didn't read much of the thread, but hey, reaching out and practicing empathy is indeed a great thing to do. So, hello there.
My reply was in response to the trend (as expressed in the comment I replied to) of demanding loads of empathy, attention, and energy, and then saying "you didn't do enough, and this is why I did X." Which is especially fun because the left is supposed to be the party that hates to take personal responsibility!
There are many people who do not do this, of course. (#notallal-righters?) However, it didn't seem necessary to completely qualify and individually name every single person I wasn't talking about, in a comment responding specifically to the idea that others are completely responsible for your actions.
1 nmx179 2017-11-16
u/raziphel, your incredible lack of self-awareness is a guaranteed hit of endorphins, every time.
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
Every time this discussion comes up with my liberal friends, I tell them the same thing - the day identity politics is wiped out from the left is the day I defect from the conservative movement and rejoin progressives.
So it's amazing to see progressives constantly denying that people like me exist. "If they vote Trump, they might be helplessly racist. Identity politics has nothing to do with it," they say. Apparently I must be a unicorn, a mythical creature like a griffin or anthropomorphic frog.
sigh I"m sorry for seriousposting either. Normally I find this stuff funny, but sometimes it's just so depressing, you know? I mean, I used to be liberal, and I still would be, if they hadn't lost their way so badly. And judging from the stupidity evident in the linked thread, it'll take them decades to change course.
1 leather-muffin 2017-11-16
The only issue I personally have with this is that for a lot of people saying what you say, "identity politics" means bringing up any social issues whatsoever regardless of their validity. Like, the concern that black people recieve harsher sentences for the same crimes is a valid one. Would you call that identity politics?
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
A large part of what makes identity politics so toxic is the deeply flawed idea that your gender, orientation, or race are more important than your actions. For example, when a white man says something hateful about blacks, that's racism, but when a black man says something hateful about whites, liberals support it because "that's punching up rather than punching down." The idea that bigotry is somehow more tolerable when it comes from a position of weakness rather than a position of strength is frankly insane.
So I'm totally fine with social justice movements that try to establish fair treatment for minorities, as long as they police their extremists well and punish them for saying horrible stuff. When a woman or minority (for instance) posts something on Twitter such as "Fuck White Men" I expect them to be called out as racist/sexist, humilated, and fired - just as a white guy would be if the roles were reversed. Racism and sexism in all shapes needs to be exterminated wherever it rears its ugly head - and lately, it's the left that is more guilty of bigotry and hate. Notice how they always close ranks to defend or excuse their bigots under the guise of "punching up."
Does that seem reasonable to you? I fought for equality back when I was liberal so that racism and sexism would be eliminated from society entirely - not so that the bigotry could continue but with the roles reversed. Either we agree to punish all racists and sexists regardless of their background, or we should make all speech 100% consequence-free and let both the Nazis and Antifa say whatever they want without consequences. I'm fine either way, I just don't like the double standard.
1 leather-muffin 2017-11-16
And that's fair. I honestly agree with you, and as a leftist I wish leftists were more willing to call these things out when they see them.
1 Prysorra 2017-11-16
I think a more efficient explanation is the fight between retributive and restorative justice.
Sins of the father versus blood of the lamb.
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
What about the large number of white people who are immigrants? It's neither retributive nor restorative justice to expect them to make amends for a system that they had no hand in and never benefitted from. It's completely unjust by any metric. We walked into a country where race relations were already deeply fucked up long before we ever got here, and the "Social Justice" left seems to expect us to cheerfully accept the role of "bad guy who needs to atone" in this bizarre drama. Then they wonder why we would prefer the alt-right?
It's like they're actively saying "Hey, you can either vote for me or the neo-nazi... but before you decide, let me spit on you a few times so that you're totally familiar with my platform."
1 Prysorra 2017-11-16
Well, that why everything should be about contribution, not redistribution.
It's still everyone's responsibility to act as a productive and constructive member of society.
1 djlewt 2017-11-16
The large number of white people who are immigrants also still to this day receive a major systemic advantage over non-whites, this is made clear every single time any sort of study on economic opportunity or policing or upward mobility is done and there are thousands of them that all reach that same conclusion.
Now you'll notice that I didn't excuse anyone on the left of this behavior, remember that when thinking of your response.
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
I agree with you - what you are describing is basically the justification for affirmative action. But prejudice goes down over time, and the structures in place to counterbalance it need to be reevaluated to prevent "reverse racism." For example, if a person receives the equivalent of $100k in advantages from affirmative action, that might be equitable in a time period where there is a substantial bigotry against hiring such people. Giving them the same advantages in a time period where there is substantially less bigotry is not equity - it is reverse discrimination, because it compensates them more than the structural damage inflicted by racism.
So if progressives were willing to work with conservatives to create metrics that quantify systemic disadvantage and gradually reduce AA when certain goalposts are reached, we would be in complete agreement. I have seen no indication of any willingness from progressives to do that. All the studies appear to be run by flaming liberals who cut corners in their research to reach a politically motivated conclusion. This is unsurprising, since literally 98% of sociologists (not exaggerating) are liberal and conservatives report prejudice and discrimation which tends to drive them from the field.
AA was always intended to be a temporary measure, gradually reduced over time. The fact that no research from any credible non-partisan sources has been done to quantify it, implies a certain lack of honesty regarding progressive motives in this matter.
Personally I feel like Affirmative Action is still needed to combat structural prejudice, but if the left isn't willing to compromise and give a specific timetable for winding it down, then you should not be surprised or angry when people get upset about it and want to wind it down prematurely.
I'm not sure if I adequately addressed your point. Did I?
1 Gsteel11 2017-11-16
So... You're voting for a crazy man because some liberals said bad things to you on social media?
1 ay_what_up 2017-11-16
you’re a perfect example of the extreme confirmation bias people experience when living in a political bubble
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
Shush now, grown-ups are talking. You want attention - I get it. But I have none to spare at the moment.
1 ay_what_up 2017-11-16
ironic coming from someone who believes white people are at risk of being on the worse end of racial discrimination. Sjws dont matter, they barely effect anything, and you’ll barely see them if you cut back on your internet usage, nerd
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
All I believe is that society should be totally colorblind. The fact that you're opposed to that is pretty concerning, to be honest. Tell me more about this "progressiveness," preferably in a way that doesn't make you sound like a giant racist. I mean, any more than you already are.
1 Pepperglue 2017-11-16
What if the conservative movement started playing the identity politic card, too? What are you going to be?
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
Green Party, yo. As the saying goes "Can't Redefine the Stein!"
1 Pepperglue 2017-11-16
Not much of an upgrade, but oh well.
1 The_Reason_Trump_Won 2017-11-16
If you're an amerifat, our green party is way worse with this kinda shit than our Dems and Republicans.
1 heavenlytoaster 2017-11-16
One can always choose the most popular write in: Mickey mouse
1 Gsteel11 2017-11-16
They clearly are...trump plays it constantly attacking Mexicans and muslims.
1 DBrickShaw 2017-11-16
I'm in the same boat, and I think there's more like us than many people suspect. I'm completely on board with eliminating discrimination by race/gender, and treating everyone equally. What I'm not on board with is perpetuating discrimination by race/gender in the name of equity, and moving white men to the bottom of the discrimination stack until adequate reparations have been made for the faults of our ancestors. Over the last decade or so I've watched the left rapidly shift from supporting the former to supporting the latter, and I don't see myself supporting left wing candidates until that trend reverses. You could point out, quite correctly, that the modern right is equally mired in identity politics, but if all my choices are playing the identity politics game, I might as well support the side that's going to bat for my identity categories.
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
Well said, I agree 100%. It's funny because modern progressives like to frame themselves as "being on the right side of history," but I suspect that history will actually remember them as a bunch of nasty bigots (similar to the Christian Right that used to censor people in the name of decency). That Antifa or BLM protestor shutting down conservative speakers in the name of "no platforming" is one day going to be seen as that crazy racist uncle whom nobody wants to talk to at family gatherings.
1 Gsteel11 2017-11-16
Where are you moved to the "bottom"... specifically? What has happened to You that made you feel this way?
1 Gsteel11 2017-11-16
What exactly is your exact problem? What about "identity politics" bothers You? All you really say is "I don't like it and I do exist".
What are liberals saying that you're upset about to the degree that you could go against apparently ALL your other politcal ideas to support someone else?
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
My proilem is that liberals are basically saying that it's OK for people to be bigoted against me, because of my gender and race. In fact they actively support the racists and sexists who say horrible things about white men.
How hard is that to understand? My platform when I was a liberal was "people who say horribly racist shit need to be destroyed with extreme prejudice." My platform as a conservative is exactly the same, it's just that the racism started coming from the other side of the political spectrum. I do not believe in the toxic philosophy of "punching up vs. punching down" and I simply want to maximize the number of bigots getting hurt. I switch sides as necessary to make that happen.
Are you hurting yet, bigot? I sincerely hope so. I'd hate to vote for another four years of Trump, but if that's what it takes to make people like you into the scum of society, then them's the breaks I guess.
1 Gsteel11 2017-11-16
Who is saying this?
It's hard to understand because I don't see anyone actualky saying this stuff.
Who is bigoted agaisnt you?
To be more precise even...you actually you called me a bigot, it seems...what have I said that was bigoted?
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
Google "White Men Suck." Read the links, then ask yourself why the people saying this horribly racist and bigoted stuff have not been fired yet.
That's because you're either too stupid to do a basic Google search or you simply don't want to look, so that you have plausible deniability. Than way when people point out this bigoted stuff, you can take on a stupid look and act utterly shocked, much as you are doing now.
I just gave you an easy way to find out. Either use it or STFU.
The fact that you are denying the existence of the numerous and easily verifiable examples of racism and bigotry from the Left indicate that either you are the stupidest person alive, or you are an apologist for this unacceptably racist and sexist behavior. I'm assuming that it's the latter option, since the idea that millennials are too dumb to use Google is so frighteningly realistic that it makes my eyes twitch.
1 Gsteel11 2017-11-16
So "google white men suck" is your answer? You would google "x sucks" for anything and get a ton of answers of people that haven't been fired for it? That's the internet...
Lolol...i googled it.
Most of the links are white men, it seems saying "white men have done some bad things" and listing them in small stories that no one has read or cares about.
Seems to be more some blogs that no one pays attention to.
And they seem to have nothing really to do with the democrat party...lol
And if these are "racist" then trump is a huge racist peice of shit...right? He's said WAY worse than these folks do about mexicans.
Let me guess, you don't see that? Lol
Yeah, you pay more attention to microblogbers with 5 hits than the ptesident you vote for. We get it.
And yeah, since I'm not obsessed with people that no one listens to or knows about...that means I'm Racist...lol...great job.
Look...there are always going to be some racist out there somewhere...if you look hard enough on the internet.
But how can "liberals" stop them? Lol...we cant.
Too bad you don't have a real reason to vote and you think this is one and you LIE...FLAT OUT LIE...about liberals supporting this shit.
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
Let me be clear - I have neither the time nor the inclination to educate you about your own prejudice. I gave you a very simple way to educate yourself and instead of doing so, you're coming up with a million No True Scotsman reasons why none of these examples of racism/sexism "count."
It isn't my goal to educate bigots like you, simply to eliminate them. If you would prefer to be in a state of perpetual surprise as to why so many voters loathe people like you and are willing to vote for any politician willing to hurt you (regardless of said politician's flaws) then that is your prerogative. The outcome will ultimately be the same either way.
1 Gsteel11 2017-11-16
Lol...because you have nothing.
Your example is like saying "all republicans are racist.. Google 'kkk' to prove it"
That doesnt prove your cliams.
Not even close. It makes zero sense.
1 djlewt 2017-11-16
Hopefully they respond how cute and naive you are, purposefully belonging to the original identity politics group that had fucking purity tests and ran constantly on "identity politics" platforms like "my opponent says he's a Christian, but you and I both know he's not a true Christian like us.".. Were you just not born yet in the 70's and 80's and too lazy to learn about recent political history?
It's ok, I'm sure the problem is some people calling you racist, not the actual right wing voters that again and again for the last 50+ years have consistently voted for people that readily admit they're going to fuck them over.. Seriously these people used identity politics in the 80's to make righties literally vote against their own basic self interest, because you wouldn't want your kids to turn into "ivory tower liberal elites" or anything, so you shouldn't send them to college.. That was literally an "argument" used by the right in the 80's, you and other right wing voters are merely a product of the demonization of dissent and education.
Oh and the right has been using every slur in the book on liberals as long as this shit has been recorded, so if you're so turned off because people call you racist for voting for obviously racist candidates you're probably also a conservatard dickfuck nazi loving cock gobbler too.
Hope I didn't hurt your feelings, we all know how much conservatives have cared about the feelings of others over the past 50 years!
fucking idiot.
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
You seem to be in the wrong sub, friend. I can't help you coalesce your hateful and disjointed ramblings about things that happened 50 years ago into anything even vaguely resembling a coherent narrative about problems of our modern era. If you're looking for help (and I don't blame you!) please try r/toastmasters.
1 ay_what_up 2017-11-16
this seriousposting is lame and you are weak. You shouldn’t come to r/drama to laugh, you should come to be disgusted. Also, if I had to guess, youre extremely casual towards politics and don’t have strong ideals, you just like articles with pretty pictures and snappy headlines. My review of you as a person: GAY
1 wolfdreams01 2017-11-16
I am upvoting you for your brutal honesty (if not your manners).
1 DudeCat 2017-11-16
There is a lot of discussion on the left about how the Trump's support and the alt-right is a form of white identity politics, with the implication that white identity politics is bad. They always dance around admitting that they don't really have a problem with identity politics, just with white people engaging in it.
1 XhotwheelsloverX 2017-11-16
Remember when r/menslib actually cared about men? I don't either.
1 The_Reason_Trump_Won 2017-11-16
1 leather-muffin 2017-11-16
Honestly, if your response to identity politics is to become an honest to God NeoNazi sympathizer, I almost wonder how much the average Joe could've done to "save" you from that.
1 Randydandy69 2017-11-16
My thoughts exactly
1 DickingBimbos247 2017-11-16
there are barely any neonazis or -sympathizers.
The menslibbers over there are performing the old Motte and Bailey trick:
on one hand: the "alt-right" are literal nazis who would totally genocide everyone if they had any power. (maybe 0.3% of the US)
on the other hand: pretty much every gamer, every trump supporter, and everyone who thinks SJWs are pieces of shit is supposed to also be "alt-right" (~50% of the US)
1 leather-muffin 2017-11-16
I'm not talking about category 2, I'm talking about category 1.
1 DickingBimbos247 2017-11-16
but those people are a small and politically irrelevant group. they're pretty much the same as they have been for at least the past 20 years.
they've been holding rallies while Obama was president as well, nobody got twitter PTSD from it then.
1 BigLordShiggot 2017-11-16
/u/fala1 Violent male antifa in /r/antifa are bullying me by talking penis size. Can you help me? I think they are full of toxic masculinity.
1 BigLordShiggot 2017-11-16
/u/fala1 Just admit that incels, legbeards and male feminists are full of hate and resentment entirely because they are bad at being their gender and want to bring everyone else down to their level.
Look, I just explained all gender politics. kthxbye