every time I get summoned here, I have a quick look around and find that this place gets worse and worse, it's like a black hole which mangles everything that gets sucked into it. src
Pretty low-tier drama, tbqh. /u/kryptos19 is a Qur'anist, which means she's considered to be a deviant/nonbeliever by most other Muslims. These types of debates (someone who doesn't agree with mainstream opinions on Islam) are a dime a dozen on /r/exmuslim. She acknowledges that it's not a mainstream sect, so I wouldn't really have bothered arguing. I might've argued if, say, someone claimed to be a Sunni, but then said apostasy isn't punishable by death or something else that's a mainstream opinion amongst Sunni religious authorities.
The ahadith, which she doesn't believe in, are much more explicit in their endorsement of bad stuff. Qur'anists don't accept sunnah (records of the prophet) as a valid source, and since they're their own sect, they don't accept the same interpretations of the Qur'an by 99% of other Muslims. If you disregard the sunnah, then some of these interpretations might hold (I haven't really bothered to look into Qur'anist arguments), but one of /u/kryptos19's biggest gripes with Islam is the sanctioning of physical violence against your wife, which is mentioned in the Qur'an. The Qur'anist argument is that it actually means separate, but I think someone went over how pretty much every Arabic lexicon says you can't use the word used there for separate without a connecting word (عن).
To be honest though, I don't really care if people have beliefs that don't align with the mainstream beliefs, as long as they aren't assholes and don't infringe on the rights of others (usually children are the ones who are forced to be religious or whatever, or they suffer in other ways1). People on /r/exmuslim like to hate on liberal Muslims a lot because liberal Muslims believe Islam is a religion of peace and all that, while /r/exmuslim disagrees. I mean, I disagree too, but I'd rather have Muslims follow Islam-lite rather than the fundamentalist version of it. Fundamentalists know that Islam-lite is just going to lead to Muslims not being that religious overall, so they really hate it (it was often mentioned in school how Christians were barely Christian, and how that's the result when you don't follow and teach your religion properly), but I feel like people are getting less religious with each generation.
Why there are people that think we have to also act out the bad part of a religion to be "religious"?
Well, you don't necessarily have to act out all the bad parts. For example, you don't have to beat your wife if you're a religious Muslim. You're just supposed to, at the minimum, accept it as something God has endorsed as okay.
You also have parts of Islam that are supposed to be laid down as the law, like apostasy and blasphemy laws. These are only problems in Muslim countries with a religious populace. In Saudi Arabia, for example, the religious populace believes that the royal family is supposed to uphold Islam (I wrote about why Saudi Arabia is so a while ago, if you're interested), and Article 1 of the Constitution of Saudi Arabia actually says that the constitution of the Kingdom is the book of Allah (the Qur'an) and the sunnah (traditions of the prophet). It has 83 other articles though, and in reality, Saudi Arabia doesn't actually follow sharia to the letter.
About a week ago, a Saudi government organization called the Ideological Warfare Center announced that killing apostates wasn't Islamic, and provided a bunch of religious justification to back their point. There were a lot of people mad about it on Twitter, saying that it is Islamic and the country shouldn't do that. About 16 hours later, the Saudi Press Agency (also a government organization) announced that any reports about the cancellation of the punishment for apostasy was false. If I remember correctly, Saudi Arabia hasn't executed apostates in a while, but I guess they still have to hold up the image of being the land of Islam to a lot of people.
Pakistan is another example. It's honestly worse than Saudi Arabia in a lot of ways, at least in Saudi Arabia, the government mostly just jails you for stuff like blasphemy. The populace doesn't lynch you either. In Pakistan, you have this guy who was lynched for suspicions of being an apostate, this woman who was sentenced to death after being accused of blasphemy, and this guy who was assassinated by his bodyguard because he didn't want the previously mentioned woman who was sentenced to death to be killed. If that was a bit confusing, let me clarify: he literally got killed for saying "Maybe we shouldn't kill someone else for blasphemy". Thousands of people gathered to mourn the assassin too.
Now, Pakistan doesn't really view itself as the pinnacle of Islam like Saudi Arabia does, but I feel like the level of education and economic status of Pakistan probably makes a lot of the populace rabidly religious.
In non-Muslim countries, the dynamic is usually different, since growing up in a different environment has a pretty big effect on how you turn out. For the most part, Muslims that grow up in western countries aren't as religious as their counterparts in Muslim countries, and they're not going to try and establish sharia or whatever. You might have a bunch of religious crazies that do, but they're outliers. Usually, the problems that I see with Muslims in the west can also be applied to Christian fundamentalists: forcing your children to be religious, ostracization for not being religious or being gay or something, child abuse intertwined with that stuff, etc.
I've noticed that a lot of people like to criticize the taking in of refugees by Europe, or Muslim immigration in general, and they think the problems (which may or may not be exaggerated or just outright false, depending on the problem) stem from Islam or them being Muslims or something, which just isn't true and doesn't make sense. Why don't Muslims disproportionately commit crime in the US, then? It's not because they're Muslim, it's because in Europe, there are different socioeconomic factors at play.
Anyway, that was quite a spergout, tl;dr it's because people want to follow the scripture if they can, and the mentality of people and their religiosity depends a lot on their family and the environment they were raised in.
Mashal Khan (Pashto: مشال خان) was a Pashtun and Muslim student at the Abdul Wali Khan University Mardan, Pakistan who was killed by an angry mob in the premises of the university on 13 April 2017, over fake allegations of posting blasphemous content online. Following investigations, the Inspector General Police later stated "We did not find any concrete evidence under which [a blasphemy] investigation or legal action can be launched against Mashal, Abdullah or Zubair". Mashal's friend Abdullah stated to the police in writing that both Mashal and Abdullah were devout Muslims, but were actively denouncing mismanagement by the university and had previously led protests against it. Following the death of Khan, at least 45 people were arrested.
Asia Bibi blasphemy case
The Asia Bibi blasphemy case involves a Pakistani Christian woman, Aasiya Noreen (born c. 1971; better known as Asia Bibi), convicted of blasphemy by a Pakistani court, receiving a sentence of death by hanging in 2010. In June 2009, Noreen was involved in an argument with a group of Muslim women with whom she had been harvesting berries after the other women grew angry with her for drinking the same water as them. She was subsequently accused of insulting the Islamic prophet Muhammad, a charge she denies, and was arrested and imprisoned.
Salmaan Taseer
Salmaan Taseer (Urdu: سلمان تاثیر; (1944-05-31)31 May 1944 – 4 January 2011) was a Pakistani businessman and a liberal politician who served as the 26th Governor of Punjab from 2008 until his assassination in 2011.
Born in Shimla, East Punjab in British India, Taseer studied at the St. Anthony's School and the Government College in Lahore before moving to London where studied accountancy at the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales. In 1994, Taseer established a brokerage house backed by the Smith Barney and in 1996 he founded the Worldcall Group.
Mumtaz Qadri
Malik Mumtaz Hussain Qadri (1985 – 29 February 2016), better known as Mumtaz Qadri (Urdu: ممتاز قادری), was a convicted murderer and policeman. A follower of Barelvi sect of Islam, he served as a commando of the Elite Police and in the squad of personal bodyguards of then Governor of Punjab Salmaan Taseer. On 4 January 2011, he assassinated Taseer for speaking in favor of blasphemy-convicted Asia Bibi and against the blasphemy law. He was convicted by the Islamabad High Court, sentenced to death and hanged in February 2016.
Well, yeah, if you're either Sunni or Shi'i (they have their own hadiths). Sunnis (and probably shia too) consider Qur'anists (people who only follow the Qur'an and disregard hadiths) disbelievers. Qur'anists consider themselves Muslim, but they're probably less than 1% of the Muslim population.
So, is the underrage bussy that all those Afghan and Pakistani pious warriors & students of the Prophet love to plow with such ferocious skill and energy haram?
20 comments
1 SnapshillBot 2017-12-10
every time I get summoned here, I have a quick look around and find that this place gets worse and worse, it's like a black hole which mangles everything that gets sucked into it. src
Snapshots:
I am a bot. (Info / Contact)
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2017-12-10
/u/shallom thots on this?
1 Think_Once 2017-12-10
FTFY
1 Matues49 2017-12-10
BEGONE THOT
1 shallowm 2017-12-10
Pretty low-tier drama, tbqh. /u/kryptos19 is a Qur'anist, which means she's considered to be a deviant/nonbeliever by most other Muslims. These types of debates (someone who doesn't agree with mainstream opinions on Islam) are a dime a dozen on /r/exmuslim. She acknowledges that it's not a mainstream sect, so I wouldn't really have bothered arguing. I might've argued if, say, someone claimed to be a Sunni, but then said apostasy isn't punishable by death or something else that's a mainstream opinion amongst Sunni religious authorities.
The ahadith, which she doesn't believe in, are much more explicit in their endorsement of bad stuff. Qur'anists don't accept sunnah (records of the prophet) as a valid source, and since they're their own sect, they don't accept the same interpretations of the Qur'an by 99% of other Muslims. If you disregard the sunnah, then some of these interpretations might hold (I haven't really bothered to look into Qur'anist arguments), but one of /u/kryptos19's biggest gripes with Islam is the sanctioning of physical violence against your wife, which is mentioned in the Qur'an. The Qur'anist argument is that it actually means separate, but I think someone went over how pretty much every Arabic lexicon says you can't use the word used there for separate without a connecting word (عن).
To be honest though, I don't really care if people have beliefs that don't align with the mainstream beliefs, as long as they aren't assholes and don't infringe on the rights of others (usually children are the ones who are forced to be religious or whatever, or they suffer in other ways1). People on /r/exmuslim like to hate on liberal Muslims a lot because liberal Muslims believe Islam is a religion of peace and all that, while /r/exmuslim disagrees. I mean, I disagree too, but I'd rather have Muslims follow Islam-lite rather than the fundamentalist version of it. Fundamentalists know that Islam-lite is just going to lead to Muslims not being that religious overall, so they really hate it (it was often mentioned in school how Christians were barely Christian, and how that's the result when you don't follow and teach your religion properly), but I feel like people are getting less religious with each generation.
1. I was reminded of this tweet while writing this comment, it's a doctor saying how a kid came to his clinic and was suffering from anxiety and fear because of the stories she heard from her teacher about how disbelievers and sinners are going to be punished in the grave and in hell. He suggests "why don't we teach our kids about God's love instead of his torment?" I wholeheartedly agree, I wish Muslims would just teach their kids "Allah loves everyone, Muhammad helped the poor and loved kittens" instead of getting them to actually read the scripture and all that, because it's kind of hard to avoid the bad stuff in there, and as you can see with Qur'anists, to have a different interpretation, you need to justify it with elaborate articles on how it doesn't actually mean what it says. I guess Qur'anism is a step in the right direction toward making Islam-lite something more common, though.
1 Pepperglue 2017-12-10
Why there are people that think we have to also act out the bad part of a religion to be "religious"?
Wife-beating, marrying children are two concepts that are incompatible with the modern world. Let it go and begin again.
1 one_frisk 2017-12-10
something something hellfire, god's wrath, absolute loyalty and obedience to god and his scripture, fear of questioning the religion etc
1 shallowm 2017-12-10
Well, you don't necessarily have to act out all the bad parts. For example, you don't have to beat your wife if you're a religious Muslim. You're just supposed to, at the minimum, accept it as something God has endorsed as okay.
You also have parts of Islam that are supposed to be laid down as the law, like apostasy and blasphemy laws. These are only problems in Muslim countries with a religious populace. In Saudi Arabia, for example, the religious populace believes that the royal family is supposed to uphold Islam (I wrote about why Saudi Arabia is so a while ago, if you're interested), and Article 1 of the Constitution of Saudi Arabia actually says that the constitution of the Kingdom is the book of Allah (the Qur'an) and the sunnah (traditions of the prophet). It has 83 other articles though, and in reality, Saudi Arabia doesn't actually follow sharia to the letter.
About a week ago, a Saudi government organization called the Ideological Warfare Center announced that killing apostates wasn't Islamic, and provided a bunch of religious justification to back their point. There were a lot of people mad about it on Twitter, saying that it is Islamic and the country shouldn't do that. About 16 hours later, the Saudi Press Agency (also a government organization) announced that any reports about the cancellation of the punishment for apostasy was false. If I remember correctly, Saudi Arabia hasn't executed apostates in a while, but I guess they still have to hold up the image of being the land of Islam to a lot of people.
Pakistan is another example. It's honestly worse than Saudi Arabia in a lot of ways, at least in Saudi Arabia, the government mostly just jails you for stuff like blasphemy. The populace doesn't lynch you either. In Pakistan, you have this guy who was lynched for suspicions of being an apostate, this woman who was sentenced to death after being accused of blasphemy, and this guy who was assassinated by his bodyguard because he didn't want the previously mentioned woman who was sentenced to death to be killed. If that was a bit confusing, let me clarify: he literally got killed for saying "Maybe we shouldn't kill someone else for blasphemy". Thousands of people gathered to mourn the assassin too.
Now, Pakistan doesn't really view itself as the pinnacle of Islam like Saudi Arabia does, but I feel like the level of education and economic status of Pakistan probably makes a lot of the populace rabidly religious.
In non-Muslim countries, the dynamic is usually different, since growing up in a different environment has a pretty big effect on how you turn out. For the most part, Muslims that grow up in western countries aren't as religious as their counterparts in Muslim countries, and they're not going to try and establish sharia or whatever. You might have a bunch of religious crazies that do, but they're outliers. Usually, the problems that I see with Muslims in the west can also be applied to Christian fundamentalists: forcing your children to be religious, ostracization for not being religious or being gay or something, child abuse intertwined with that stuff, etc.
I've noticed that a lot of people like to criticize the taking in of refugees by Europe, or Muslim immigration in general, and they think the problems (which may or may not be exaggerated or just outright false, depending on the problem) stem from Islam or them being Muslims or something, which just isn't true and doesn't make sense. Why don't Muslims disproportionately commit crime in the US, then? It's not because they're Muslim, it's because in Europe, there are different socioeconomic factors at play.
Anyway, that was quite a spergout, tl;dr it's because people want to follow the scripture if they can, and the mentality of people and their religiosity depends a lot on their family and the environment they were raised in.
1 Agrees_withyou 2017-12-10
Can't say I disagree.
1 WikiTextBot 2017-12-10
Death of Mashal Khan
Mashal Khan (Pashto: مشال خان) was a Pashtun and Muslim student at the Abdul Wali Khan University Mardan, Pakistan who was killed by an angry mob in the premises of the university on 13 April 2017, over fake allegations of posting blasphemous content online. Following investigations, the Inspector General Police later stated "We did not find any concrete evidence under which [a blasphemy] investigation or legal action can be launched against Mashal, Abdullah or Zubair". Mashal's friend Abdullah stated to the police in writing that both Mashal and Abdullah were devout Muslims, but were actively denouncing mismanagement by the university and had previously led protests against it. Following the death of Khan, at least 45 people were arrested.
Asia Bibi blasphemy case
The Asia Bibi blasphemy case involves a Pakistani Christian woman, Aasiya Noreen (born c. 1971; better known as Asia Bibi), convicted of blasphemy by a Pakistani court, receiving a sentence of death by hanging in 2010. In June 2009, Noreen was involved in an argument with a group of Muslim women with whom she had been harvesting berries after the other women grew angry with her for drinking the same water as them. She was subsequently accused of insulting the Islamic prophet Muhammad, a charge she denies, and was arrested and imprisoned.
Salmaan Taseer
Salmaan Taseer (Urdu: سلمان تاثیر; (1944-05-31)31 May 1944 – 4 January 2011) was a Pakistani businessman and a liberal politician who served as the 26th Governor of Punjab from 2008 until his assassination in 2011.
Born in Shimla, East Punjab in British India, Taseer studied at the St. Anthony's School and the Government College in Lahore before moving to London where studied accountancy at the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales. In 1994, Taseer established a brokerage house backed by the Smith Barney and in 1996 he founded the Worldcall Group.
Mumtaz Qadri
Malik Mumtaz Hussain Qadri (1985 – 29 February 2016), better known as Mumtaz Qadri (Urdu: ممتاز قادری), was a convicted murderer and policeman. A follower of Barelvi sect of Islam, he served as a commando of the Elite Police and in the squad of personal bodyguards of then Governor of Punjab Salmaan Taseer. On 4 January 2011, he assassinated Taseer for speaking in favor of blasphemy-convicted Asia Bibi and against the blasphemy law. He was convicted by the Islamabad High Court, sentenced to death and hanged in February 2016.
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1 Pepperglue 2017-12-10
I guess that makes sense. Thanks for the spergout.
1 Neronoah 2017-12-10
How do you justify genocide otherwise?
1 incineratechicken 2017-12-10
u/throwaway92595
𝕯𝕰𝖀𝕾 𝖁𝖀𝕷𝕿 tbh
1 Thhueros 2017-12-10
Do you have to listen to the hadiths if you're a muslim?
1 ONE_deedat 2017-12-10
not directly but indirectly. If you do it directly...well you get ISIS/Al Qaida/Taliban et al from that...
1 shallowm 2017-12-10
Well, yeah, if you're either Sunni or Shi'i (they have their own hadiths). Sunnis (and probably shia too) consider Qur'anists (people who only follow the Qur'an and disregard hadiths) disbelievers. Qur'anists consider themselves Muslim, but they're probably less than 1% of the Muslim population.
1 Ultrashitpost 2017-12-10
For 99.9% of Muslims, yes.
1 Matues49 2017-12-10
So, is the underrage bussy that all those Afghan and Pakistani pious warriors & students of the Prophet love to plow with such ferocious skill and energy haram?
1 shallowm 2017-12-10
Yeah, bussy is strictly forbidden for men. Pederasty is something cultural with no religious basis.
1 MooseHeckler 2017-12-10
Absolutely haram.
1 BigLordShiggot 2017-12-10
☩DEUS VULT!☩