every time I get summoned here, I have a quick look around and find that this place gets worse and worse, it's like a black hole which mangles everything that gets sucked into it. src

Snapshots:

1. This Post - archive.org, megalodon.jp*, archive.is

^{I am a bot. (Info / Contact)}

...wait, so the big secret is that the guy who composed the dossier was biased and got fired after he leaked it? And wasn't the dossier initially requested by the GOP, or was that something else?

Idk, from what I've heard

I don't really care what you've heard. Where's the beef?

Stelle was working om the memo, right wing organizations were involved in funding it. When daddy started getting popular the right wing money dried up and that's when the DNC gave Stelle money to continue research. This shit has been public knowledge for months.

Steele*

I wonder why that wasn't included in the dossier!

Nah nigga, it's all relevant, i want all the facts not just partisan spin.

They had Carter Paige or whatever i their sights way before this. Before the oppo research dossiers.

Steele actually brought the FIFA scandal to light, he's good at his job.

Plus that thing on Trumps head is not an American citizen, that's what we are trying to get rid of.

That's a stretch when it its funding was bipartisan

What's a stretch? And gop donors stopped funding it before the dossier. Not that it changes that the intent of it was always anti trump.

Are you retarded, Page was under surveillance since 2013. Way before Trump was a candidate. The Steele has nothing to do with why the surveillance was renewed, but Nunes and Trump want you to think so.

Read the Fusion GPS testimony you boot licking dumb fuck. Both house and Senate versions.

Oh get off it, we knew all this since George W. Bush's administration released the White Papers and when Snowden LITERALLY leaked the dossier describing the government's program that was spying on all ordinary citizens.

I would enjoy the spectacle of watching the republicans work themselves into a frenzy just weeks after reauthorizing this very thing except national security stuff is endlessly depressing, so I'll just drink instead.

Cheers mate x

irrelevant to what...?

The real issue here is that it doesn't matter who the opposition is (the "never Trump" people or those with ties to Clinton and DNC), but that there would have been no warrant or two renewals of that warrant without that information, and the potential bias of its sourcing ... that's a problem.

If Steele believes almost everything in his dossier is true, it's not about being biased.

It's about doing everything you can to stop a Russian asset from taking over the United States.

You're moving the goalposts now. You just said it was about corroboration, and i'm telling you that is part of what is being called into question. Moreover, bias and monetary motivation DOES matter in this case.

You're missing my point.

He wasn't being biased, he was trying to stop someone, who he believed to be a Russian asset, from assuming the presidency based on evidence that he had gathered.

If I was in his position, and I had evidence that a Russian asset was going to assume the presidency, I'd have a "We can't let this guy become president" attitude, too.

If I were

Good bot.

If I was in his position, and I had evidence that a Russian asset was going to assume the presidency, I'd have a "We can't let this guy become president" attitude, too.

I agree, but I wouldn’t be taking money from his enemies either.

If I were

Bad bot

I agree, but I wouldn’t be taking money from his enemies either.

That's why you're poor.

True.

I agree, but I wouldn’t be taking money from his enemies either. I think I originally wrote the same response to the fucking bot

What you just said is "you aren't biased of you don't think you are"

Jesus Christ THANK YOU

^{^} See, if you're gonna withhold information from the people that control our secrets courts, at least have the balls to fucking own it.

Thanks! A lie by omission is still a lie! IF, IF this memo is for real.

it doesn't matter who the opposition is

ಠ_ಠ is he "literally hitler" or not?

All of you are Hitler in my tiny, blackened, broken heart.

For the record, I am NOT Trent Reznor.

So before the DNC it was being financed by Trump's Republican opponents. This makes it more reliable how?

A ton of the accusations are that FBI are loyal to Obama and the democrats

To say that they are investigating with evidence that was gathered by repbulcians go against that

Imagine actually being so desperate to actually hint that the FBI is an orgnization with a democrat or progressive slant.

Wrong.

and the retards flock

Fact of the matter is you could be as red as the goddamn Arkansas clay and hate trump for being a millionaire New York real estate developer who shits in a gold plated toilet.

“One of the executives, who would speak only on condition of anonymity, said he was stunned by the caliber of the would-be recruits. They are coming from a variety of government intelligence and law enforcement agencies, multiple executives said, and their interest stems in part from concerns about the direction of U.S intelligence agencies under Trump.”

I dunno, maybe because he is constantly slandering the intelligence community, willfully going against the advise of the FBI director he nominated just months ago, and oh maybe because “Some NSA veterans attribute the morale issues and staff departures to the leadership style of Rogers, who took over the spy agency in 2014 with the task of dousing an international furor caused by leaks from former contractor Edward Snowden.” Who was placed in charge by...wait for it...a Democrat!

And the DOJ as well?

You gonna tell me fucking career prosecutors lean Democratic? Next youvll claim cops are all hardline leftists.

Do you realize how dumb this argument is? Parties take advantage of oppo research conducted by their opponents all the goddamn time, it's actually one of the primary ways its used, e.g. the birther smear Trump was so fond of came from a Hillary staffer.

No one talking about this in this thread knows anything about what they are talking about dude.

Because Republicans paid for it it means the dossier is bipartisan

What do you mean show me the Republicans paid for the dossier it's like common knowledge man

They aren't. The dossier is from after gop donors stopped funding it. Even if they didnt, what's your point? It was always funded with the intent of being anti trump.

Yeah, the money stop coming when Trump got popular. None of this should be surprising, opposition research part of the bread and butter during elections. The problem is that yeah it finds skeletons in the closet but in this case it found a damn full crypt.

still believing the dossier

Lmao

By just donors, I believe, during the primary. Then democrats picked it up before the dossier was ever produced. And that's not the big secret, the big secret is that they used it for a warrant (numerous times I believe, when it requires new information to renew) while knowing that. They also used a yahoo article based on the dossier to confirm the information from the dossier.

the big secret is that they used it for a warrant (numerous times I believe, when it requires new information to renew) while knowing that.

Yeah, that sounds pretty bad, though it'd be interesting to see what else was used for justification. Shame the dem rebuttal memo got blocked, though I wouldn't be surprised if an angry dem leaks it in the next few days.

The memo only says that the decided to ask for an extension on an existing FISA warrant because of the dossier and that the dossier was given to the court as part of the justification for an extension. The dems won't leak their rebuttal because it would undercut their argument that the Republicans are being reckless with sensitive information. Their rebuttal will be released once the Republicans on the intel committee run or of reasons to delay it.

Makes sense. I'm sure you know better than I do.

Minor addendum: Republicans are celebrating too early, and given the Carter Page is definitely a walking Russia Bot ..... will probably be the reason he gets off on some sort of technicality.

Russian spies are still real, folks.

Shame the dem rebuttal memo got blocked

It's not being blocked. It was generated weeks after the republican memo, which went through a process before it was eventually released. The dem's memo is currently going through the same process and will probably also be released.

And apparently Ohr knew he was biased but didn't include that information in the FISC application

And Ohr's wife worked for Compass (I believe that is the name), one of the groups who PAID Steele to gather this information.

Which is a felony.

Lol no it's not

No, the dossier that Steele supplied was requested AND PAID FOR by the DNC. One of the top officials who (allegedly) hid that fact during the FISA warrant application is the husband of a woman who worked with the team that paid for the information.

Basically, there would have been no warrant without the Steele info, and the Steele info was paid for by the DNC. That this information wasn't disclosed in the interest of Carter Page, so that the judge could decide whether or not the bias present in the source gathering of that info might discount it (in order to maintain his civil rights) is potentially a very, very serious charge.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/author-of-trump-dossier-told-fbi-had-a-source-inside-trump-campaign/article/2645411

https://www.wsj.com/articles/former-trump-aide-carter-page-was-on-u-s-counterintelligence-radar-before-russia-dossier-1517486401

Right, let me quote what i said in another comment:

That said, this won't / shouldn't derail the investigation by Mueller, because it seems to confirm that the FBI investigation began w/Papadapolous before the FISA application targeting Page.

This changes nothing in regards to Trump investigation. Just adds spice and flavor.

But you must admit that IF the allegation that the Steele info was critical for the warrant and its sourcing / potential bias was deliberately excluded, that is absolutely awful. Think if this was President Hillary Clinton and the RNC were responsible for this.

It's a mess through and through.

The FBI takes seriously its obligations to the FISA Court and its compliance with procedures overseen by career professionals in the Department of Justice and the FBI. We are committed to working with the appropriate oversight entities to ensure the continuing integrity of the FISA process.

With regard to the House Intelligence Committee’s memorandum, the FBI was provided a limited opportunity to review this memo the day before the committee voted to release it. As expressed during our initial review, we have grave concerns about material omissions of fact that fundamentally impact the memo’s accuracy.

Given Trump's own FBI director is saying the memo is bullshit, what's that tell you?

Let's assume (or, if you prefer, pretend) for just a minute that the following is true:

1) The information provided by Steele was critical in obtaining a FISA warrant against Page

AND

2) In requesting the warrant (and later, renewals of that warrant), officials deliberately omitted key facts about the source of that information, including bias and the fact that Steele was being PAID to obtain this information

Can you please tell us all whether this is appropriate, in your mind?

Are you not following the fact Trump's own FBI director is saying the memo is bullshit discredits anything in said memo?

The Steele dossier likely wasn't "critical" because the FBI already had other intelligence, clearly.

Not for Carter Page, according to this memo.

Moreover, Wray has his back against a wall, here. Of course he can't support the release of classified information when that release is clearly motivated by politics (it is). I feel for the guy.

It's not that he doesn't support the release of classified information, he's outright saying that the memo is bullshit, and they're leaving facts out.

“As expressed during our initial review, we have grave concerns about material omissions of fact that fundamentally impact the memo’s accuracy.”

Yes, it's a concern. This can't end without the actual warrant application being reviewed (hopefully only by Congress so that we don't disclose more classified info), and see if there really is any "there" there.

The warrant had existed since 2013 or 14. Page was being watched before any campaign, they have to be extended every 90 days.

this means the FBI had enough intelligence to extend a warrant on page for years.

What makes you think this dossier, which wasn't even around until 2016, was required to extend this warrant?

Federal government investigators grew suspicious of Page’s Russian contacts and a trip he took to Moscow during the campaign, so they wiretapped him in late October 2016.

It's the wiretap that is the focus, not whether he was on their radar.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/us/politics/carter-page-fisa-warrant-russia-trump.html

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court issued the warrant, the official said, after investigators determined that Mr. Page was no longer part of the Trump campaign, which began distancing itself from him in early August. Mr. Page is one of several Trump associates under scrutiny in a federal investigation.

The Justice Department considered direct surveillance of anyone tied to a political campaign as a line it did not want to cross, the official added. But its decision to seek a wiretap once it was clear that Mr. Page had left the campaign was the latest indication that, as Mr. Trump built his insurgent run for the White House, the F.B.I. was deeply concerned about whether any of his associates were colluding with Russia.

I mean, I don't know what to tell you. The guy was being watched for years, because he was literally meeting with Russian intelligence agents that were being tapped:

Mr. Page, a former Moscow-based investment banker for Merrill Lynch who later founded an investment company in New York called Global Energy Capital, has been on the F.B.I.’s radar screen for years.

In early 2013, he met with a Russian intelligence officer posing as a banker in New York. The Russian agent was part of an espionage ring the F.B.I. had been investigating, and court records indicate that the spy tried to recruit Mr. Page.

I mean, I don't know what to tell you.

You can start with acknowledging that Page did not have a wiretap back in 2013. That only came about in Oct 2016.

The guy was being watched for years, because he was literally meeting with Russian intelligence agents that were being tapped:

Yes, which is why, ultimately, the Mueller investigation should and must continue. HOWEVER, the process used to secure this wiretap, if everything in this memo turns out to be true, is ITSELF grounds for a separate investigation.

You can start with acknowledging that Page did not have a wiretap back in 2013. That only came about in Oct 2016.

I don't know if page was tapped in 2013, but he was being watched, and people around him were tapped.

Yes, which is why, ultimately, the Mueller investigation should and must continue. HOWEVER, the process used to secure this wiretap, if everything in this memo turns out to be true, is ITSELF grounds for a separate investigation.

Except Trump is trying to use this to torpedo the investigation into him, factually.

The entire point of this is he wants to fire Rosenstein and implant a loyalist that will obstruct the investigation.

Except Trump is trying to use this to torpedo the investigation into him, factually.

Right, and if Trump were to try and fire Mueller, he would be doing so falsely, because the memo itself proves that the investigation WAS NOT predicated purely on a Hillary/DOJ/DNC thing.

What this whole debacle shows is that neither side wants to admit the weakness in their own case, the democrats don't want to acknowledge that the Steele dossier is potentially or at least partially false, and republicans don't want to admit that there's a reasonable argument that Trump's campaign was involved in some shady, possibly illegal, shit.

Right, and if Trump were to try and fire Mueller, he would be doing so falsely, because the memo itself proves that the investigation WAS NOT predicated purely on a Hillary/DOJ/DNC thing.

Holy shit, he's literally already in the media talking about it. He doesn't care if it's false.

the democrats don't want to acknowledge that the Steele dossier is potentially or at least partially false

The fuck are you talking about dude? The dossier is not the basis for the investigation, the FBI and intelligence community have their own intelligence confirming aspects of the dossier. If you seriously think that court gave them this warrant based on dossier alone, you are smoking the good shit.

What happened here is they left out all of the other intelligence and are trying to screech about the dossier because it's all they have,

Holy shit, he's literally already in the media talking about it. He doesn't care if it's false.

Oh, trust me, I don't like or support Trump. And yes, it's clear that he wants this to somehow magically make the investigation go away. It can't, and it won't.

If you seriously think that court gave them this warrant based on dossier alone, you are smoking the good shit.

Not alone, but that there would not have been a warrant were it not for the Steele info. So it was critical, if not total. McCabe said this much.

Not alone, but that there would not have been a warrant were it not for the Steele info.

Gonna need some citation proving this.

So it was critical, if not total. McCabe said this much.

Where?

Furthermore, the memo claims that Andrew McCabe, the deputy FBI director, has testified “that no surveillance warrant would have been sought from the FISC without the Steele dossier information.”

Literally, the information is in section 4 of the memo that is linked in this article. This was his testimony.

https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/959499923346677762

Well, this potentially changes things. It should be pretty straightforward to verify whether or not the TESTIMONY of McCabe did or didn't say this. It's a matter of record (even if closed).

Also, the FBI isn't even under obligation to disclose "bias" in a source. All that matters is the intelligence is credible, and the memo here literally says that it was at least somewhat credible:

According to the head of the FBI’s counterintelligence division, Assistant Director Bill Priestap, corroboration of the Steele dossier was in its “infancy” at the time of the initial Page FISA application. After Steele was terminated, a source validation report conducted by an independent unit within FBI assessed Steele’s reporting as only minimally corroborated

Credibility is called into question pretty fucking easily if it's paid for by your enemies.

But you're missing the point. All that matters is the intelligence has some type of corroboration, and this memo right here literally says that it was.

But the corroboration is claimed to be sourced FROM STEELE to Yahoo news!

Basically, it's circular (that's partially the allegation)- the yahoo news was so-called corroborating intelligence, but it was leaked by the same source of the information itself!

But the corroboration is claimed to be sourced FROM STEELE to Yahoo news!

No, that's just what they decided to keep in the memo, the dossier was confirmed in many other ways we know of.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39435786

The idea that the FBI and intelligence community "confirmed" anything via a yahoo news article is fucking absurdist bullshit and you know it.

This is someone they had been watching since 2013 and they had tapped people around him, Russian agents he was in contact with.

That was the "corroboration."

There is no way the FBI could have got a warrant with just a yahoo news article, and you aren't being intellectually honest if you think that's the case.

This is someone they had been watching since 2013 and they had tapped people around him, Russian agents he was in contact with.

That was the "corroboration."

There is no way the FBI could have got a warrant with just a yahoo news article, and you aren't being intellectually honest if you think that's the case.

Fair point.

I'm going only on what we see in this memo, which is the entire case the republicans are attempting to make.

The memo states that the FISA application quoted extensively from the Yahoo article. And then the FBI waited until AFTER submission of the article to terminate their relationship with Steele for leaking info to the press. How trustworthy of a source is the guy if they fire him for leaking?

Again, I don't think you and I actually disagree that this is as "earthshaking" as the republicans wish it was. Nor do I think we disagree that this in absolutely no way pulls Trump off the hook, but it IS interesting that this memo was so strongly argued against by democrats to be held for "national security" reasons. As far as I can see, there's nothing in this that would rise to that level of concern.

https://www.redstate.com/patterico/2018/02/02/significant-inaccuracy-thememo-calls-credibility-question/

Even more, even RedState is calling the bullshit.

Steele for leaking info to the press. How trustworthy of a source is the guy if they fire him for leaking?

Pretty credible, according to the FBI and intelligence community, including mi6.

And it seems 4 different judges reviewed this.

https://twitter.com/GeoffRBennett/status/959498580045287425

Look, it's pretty obvious they're leaving crucial details out, exactly as the FBI director said. You don't get this many extensions, you don't get a warrant to tap an American citizen based on a yahoo news article.

but it IS interesting that this memo was so strongly argued against by democrats to be held for "national security" reasons. As far as I can see, there's nothing in this that would rise to that level of concern.

This isn't the memo everyone read. This is a seriously watered down version they decided to release. There's a reason that "testimony" claiming the dossier was the basis for everything wasn't included.

Look, it's pretty obvious they're leaving crucial details out, exactly as the FBI director said. You don't get this many extensions, you don't get a warrant to tap an American citizen based on a yahoo news article.

Yeah, you're probably right.

At least, one would HOPE you're right.

Anyway, I can't wait to see how this shakes out over the next, say, two weeks? God help the republicans and Trump if this DOES turn out to be a load of shit.

Edit- Actually, if it IS a bunch of horseshit, you should be jumping for joy- it's one step further along a path toward impeachment.

Well, the FBI is likely about to bend Trump over.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-director-prepared-to-issue-rebuttal-if-nunes-memo-released-fran-townsend/

lol, what a time to be alive.

The real question is what happens when Trump tries to fire another FBI director because said director isn't a loyalist.

If he has as brain in his head, he won't do that. This doesn't provide nearly enough cover to fire Wray.

He doesn't have a brain though. He didn't have anywhere near enough cover to fire Comey and he did.

He's clearly going to try to fire Rosenstein now. I wonder how far Republicans are willing to go to cover his ass and how many seats they're willing to lose.

I’m a republican and, haha, aside from the fact that I never liked or supported Trump, there is NO WAY his presidency survives firing Rosenstein.

So to be clear, they weren't wiretapping him for years.

FBI director says FBI did nuffin wrong

Trump says Trump did nuffin wrong...

Basically, there would have been no warrant without the Steele info, and the Steele info was paid for by the DNC.

1)There already was a warrant.
2)How do you know the requested extention wouldn't have been granted without the dossier?
3)What's your view on bussy?

1) The wiretap warrant, unless I’m mistaken, was given in Oct 2016, and was predicated (allegedly, according to this memo) on info delivered by Steele.

2) Again, according to this memo (and it might be complete bullshit, I don’t know, I’m just as interested as you are), each extension request cited this very same info and source

3) ❤️❤️❤️💖💖❤️❤️❤️

it was originally funded by Free Beacon, then Trump won a buncha primaries and they went "nvm fuck this" so Fusion took it to the democrats asking for money

so the big secret is that the guy who composed the dossier was biased and got fired after he leaked it

The big secret is that the dossier is not just opposition research paid for by the Clinton campaign/DNC, but poorly done opposition research. This Steele guy apparently paid Russian operatives for what have turned out to be bullshit stories.

And wasn't the dossier initially requested by the GOP, or was that something else?

The Washington Free Beacon apparently hired Fusion GPS to do research on Trump. I don't know what the exact details of that involves, and since I've never seen a legit news story outlining this particular business transaction I've decided to write it off as a poorly executed distraction. So far as I can tell, the participation of The Washington Free Beacon doesn't change the quality (or in this case, the lack of quality) of the Steele Dossier. In addition, The Washington Free Beacon paying Fusion GPS doesn't explain why the Clinton campaign/DNC failed to properly report the money they spent on this bit of opposition research. The Clinton campaign/DNC essentially laundered money through Perkins-Coie to buy opposition research from Fusion GPS, who hired Steele, who went on to use that money to buy dirt from Russians. With that in mind, we have more evidence of an inappropriate monetary connection between Clinton and/or the DNC and Russians than we've ever had with Trump.

"Oh shit! I need to have a huge dirt pile to dig on Daddy but I forgot to do my homework!"

Quickly makes piss docs and hopes paycheck clears in time

“[M]y understanding was that they believed Chris at this point — that they believed Chris might be credible because they had other intelligence that indicated the same thing and one of those pieces of intelligence was a human source from inside the Trump organization,” Simpson said in his testimony, referring to Christopher Steele, the dossier’s author.

The deepstate is coming! The deepstate is coming!

This is literally an opinion piece by Nunes. He won't release all pertinent info cus he knows it's not damning.

Page was being watched before any campaign and the republicans know it.

This entire memo conspiracy seems to hinge on the idea page was only being watched based on a "partisan dossier" which was proven to be bullshit after the fusion testimony was put out.

There's a reason democrats put that testimony out, and it was preemptive rebuttal to this bullshit.

The FBI didn't open any investigations on a partisan dossier alone.

Steele is credible and has a good reputation in the intelligence community, and the FBI had corroborating intelligence as was revealed in the fusion testimony.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/author-of-trump-dossier-told-fbi-had-a-source-inside-trump-campaign/article/2645411

“[M]y understanding was that they believed Chris at this point — that they believed Chris might be credible because they had other intelligence that indicated the same thing and one of those pieces of intelligence was a human source from inside the Trump organization,” Simpson said in his testimony, referring to Christopher Steele, the dossier’s author.

This is becoming blatant obstruction of justice. A sitting US president is attacking his own department of justice/FBI in an effort to sink a criminal investigation he's involved in and the republican congress is letting it happen.

The warrant and subsequent spying is the issue, not the investigation.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/author-of-trump-dossier-told-fbi-had-a-source-inside-trump-campaign/article/2645411

https://www.wsj.com/articles/former-trump-aide-carter-page-was-on-u-s-counterintelligence-radar-before-russia-dossier-1517486401

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-statement-on-hpsci-memo

The FBI takes seriously its obligations to the FISA Court and its compliance with procedures overseen by career professionals in the Department of Justice and the FBI. We are committed to working with the appropriate oversight entities to ensure the continuing integrity of the FISA process.

With regard to the House Intelligence Committee’s memorandum, the FBI was provided a limited opportunity to review this memo the day before the committee voted to release it. As expressed during our initial review, we have grave concerns about material omissions of fact that fundamentally impact the memo’s accuracy.

As expressed during our initial review, we have grave concerns about material omissions of fact that fundamentally impact the memo’s accuracy.

Translation: we got caught with our hands in the cookie jar

You know that this is Trumps own FBI director, one he nominated, one that wasn't even involved during this timeframe, correct?

You keep clinging to DRUMPF'S OWN DIRECTOR like it's a fetish. Fact is the FBI is not going to release a statement saying 'we fucked up,' no matter what.

He literally lies in this memo, and it's public record.

https://www.redstate.com/patterico/2018/01/02/comey-really-testify-entire-steele-dossier-unverified/

How are you this stupid dude?

How are you this stupid dude?

I eat fucking lead paint chips by the bucket full, thats how!

Ok, Ed.

Thanks dum dum.

You know that this is Trumps own FBI director, one he nominated, one that wasn't even involved during this timeframe, correct?

I'd like to say that's a good point, but even if I were retarded and not at all capable of figuring out for myself why it isn't I'd still know better just because you're the idiot trying to make that point.

Yeah, spin doesn't really work when people can view the evidence themselves. They lied to get a warrant to spy on a political opponent.

Trump vindicated, yet again.

Where in this memo is there any evidence to support the claim being made?

I mean, the fbi admits it is true. There is no omission that would make lying to get a warrant justified.

Oh, wait, it may come out that strzok is a gay man so he's totally not liable for his actions

Where did the FBI admit to lying to get a warrant?

omission means something is left out not that what's in it is untrue

When you say "omission of fact" you are saying facts are being left out.

He's saying they're leaving stuff out to paint a narrative.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission

Lying by omission, otherwise known as exclusionary detailing, is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception. In the case of the former, an example of this would be a car salesman claiming a car to have amazing fuel economy while neglecting to mention that it has no engine and is completely immobile. In the case of the latter, it could be a situation in which a misconception exists that the claimant is aware of but fails to correct, such as a person who wanders around a hospital dressed as a doctor, offering treatment while failing to mention that she is in fact just getting a kick out of pretending to be a doctor.[2]

"omission of fact" is him saying they're lying.

You linked lying by omission and then say that's the same as omission of fact. Fbi never said they were lying by omission. They said there were omissions

"omission of fact" is the same as "lying by omission."

I want you to google "omission of fact" and tell me what comes up.

Oh, a synonym. Kinda like extreme carelessness is a synonym for gross negligence?

Yawn.

Even if what she did was gross negligence, intent is the standard.

https://warontherocks.com/2016/07/why-intent-not-gross-negligence-is-the-standard-in-clinton-case/

In other words, the defendant had to intend for his conduct to benefit a foreign power for his actions to violate 793(f).

Without the requirement of intent, the phrase “relating to the national defense” would be unconstitutionally vague. This reading of the statute has guided federal prosecutors ever since, which is why Comey based his decision not to file charges on Clinton’s lack of intent. This is also why no one has ever been convicted of violating 793(f) on a gross negligence theory.

Only one person has even been charged under a gross negligence theory: FBI Agent James Smith. Smith carried on a 20-year affair with a Chinese national who was suspected of spying for Beijing, and Smith would bring classified material to their trysts, behavior far more reckless than anything Clinton is accused of. But Smith was not convicted of violating 793(f). He struck a plea agreement that resulted in a conviction to the lesser charge of lying to federal agents. Smith was sentenced to three months of home confinement and served no jail time.

Members of the U.S. military have been charged with the negligent mishandling of classified material, but not under 793(f). Criminal charges in military court are brought under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, not the Espionage Act (although violations of the Espionage Act can be charged under Article 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice in military court). The military has extensive regulations that govern the handling of classified material and the failure to follow these regulations is a criminal offense. Negligence can result in a conviction under Article 92 because the test is whether the service member “knew or should have known” they were violating the regulation. But these rules do not apply to any civilian personnel at the State Department and can only be applied to DoD civilians in very limited circumstances.

Despite what may appear to be the plain meaning of 793(f), the negligent mishandling of classified material is not a civilian criminal offense. A civilian can face many consequences for negligently mishandling classified material, including the loss of their clearance and probably with it their employment, but they would not face criminal charges. For anyone who thinks negligence should be a crime their argument is not with Director Comey but with Justice Reed, the author of the Gorin opinion. Because of that decision, the correct standard is intent, not gross negligence, and the director was right not to recommend a criminal case.

PS: What about Hillary isn't going to work here. The FBI director very clearly said they were lying and you know it, which is why you decided to invoke the "WHAT ABOUT TEH HILLDOG" defense.

How can you intend to be grossly negligent? Like, that's not how the English language works

Let me copy paste this again for you, because you didn't read the article. I actually left the part before this out because I knew you wouldn't read it.

Justice Stanley Reed wrote the majority opinion and disagreed that the law was unconstitutionally vague, but only on the very narrow grounds that the law required “intent or reason to believe that the information to be obtained is to be used to the injury of the United States.” Only because the court read the law to require scienter, or bad faith, before a conviction could be sustained was the law constitutional. Otherwise, it would be too difficult for a defendant to know when exactly material related to the national defense. The court made clear that if the law criminalized the simple mishandling of classified information, it would not survive constitutional scrutiny, writing:

The sections are not simple prohibitions against obtaining or delivering to foreign powers information… relating to national defense. If this were the language, it would need to be tested by the inquiry as to whether it had double meaning or forced anyone, at his peril, to speculate as to whether certain actions violated the statute.

Except people have literally been prosecuted without intent before. And why change the language if it doesn't matter?

Only one person has even been charged under a gross negligence theory: FBI Agent James Smith. Smith carried on a 20-year affair with a Chinese national who was suspected of spying for Beijing, and Smith would bring classified material to their trysts, behavior far more reckless than anything Clinton is accused of. But Smith was not convicted of violating 793(f). He struck a plea agreement that resulted in a conviction to the lesser charge of lying to federal agents. Smith was sentenced to three months of home confinement and served no jail time.

Members of the U.S. military have been charged with the negligent mishandling of classified material, but not under 793(f). Criminal charges in military court are brought under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, not the Espionage Act (although violations of the Espionage Act can be charged under Article 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice in military court). The military has extensive regulations that govern the handling of classified material and the failure to follow these regulations is a criminal offense. Negligence can result in a conviction under Article 92 because the test is whether the service member “knew or should have known” they were violating the regulation. But these rules do not apply to any civilian personnel at the State Department and can only be applied to DoD civilians in very limited circumstances.

So explain the difference between gross negligence and extreme carelessness

We've gone over this. Even if it was gross negligence, it's not criminal. Period.

"gross negligence" in a legal context also means something, and Comey and the FBI very clearly didn't even think what she did met gross negligence, and said as much.

But one more time: The what about hillary defense isn't going to work.

The FBI director said they lied in that memo, yes or no?

Except the guy that changed it is also the same guy that used a fake dossier to wire tap a political oponent

Except, again, page was someone being watched since 2013 after a Russian spy-ring tried to recruit him, and he wasn't tapped until after he left the Trump campaign.

Then why was Strzok fired

Uh, he was removed from the probe, probably for good reason. That has nothing to do with page.

He also tried to reopen the investigation into Hillary Clinton, is he biased against Clinton?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/31/politics/strzok-fbi-comey-clinton-letter/index.html

The FBI called Nunez a liar. They just did it in a classy way.

The fbi is doing damage control because it was just exposed how biased they've been.

What bias?

Like what is the meaning of bias? Is English your second language?

It's a simple question, what bias are you talking about?

Oh I'm sorry I didn't think you were that retarded

Well help me out then.

This is motherfucking /u/Velvet_Llama

newfriends get the fuck out

Imagine being so retarded you brag about how much time you spend on /r/drama

weak, like my pull out game with ur mum after my fourth drink

They lied to get a warrant to spy on a political opponent.

Realistically it was more like 'they ignored concerns about the source of material used as a basis for the warrant because these things are rubber stamped anyway.' It's just it's biting them in the ass now because one of the people impacted has a whole lot more juice now.

I mostly agree. I have no doubt they abused fisa warrants on a regular basis, but I think strzok went further than their typical abuses to get Trump.

I know you've already heard it several times today, but: you are gigantic faggot. The fact that your personal identity revolves around an embarassing never-was would have most people researching noose techniques. Seriously, you are giagantic faggot.

The fuck are you talking about?

The fact that your personal identity revolves around an embarassing never-was

??

Rodom, you mong. Your ass is still prolapsed about her humilliating crushing defeat.

I don't give a shit about Hillary Clinton and never did. I voted for her because she was the only competent person in the race and the only person with fact-based policy.

I don't even like her, and never will. Just because you're a cultist that sucks off daddy doesn't mean other people are also cultists.

But by every single possible measurement life has improved for Americans since Trump took over

Let me guess, you're going to claim long-term trends are actually because of Donald Trump?

I'm just looking at the facts. And the facts show life is better with Trump in charge

What has Trump done to improve life?

Tax bill, economy, deregulation. Basically he made America great again

I see, so cutting taxes for the wealthy and deregulating everyone "makes America great."

As for the economy, by every relevant metric it's the same as it was before Trump came into office.

You'd save yourself a lot of embarrassment and me a lot of time if you just said "BECAUSE MUH TRIBE IS IN THE WHITE HOUSE" rather than keep up this charade your life has improved in any tangible way because of Donald Trump.

Keep repeating the tax cuts for the rich line. Nothings funnier than a former Democrat's face when they see not only are they getting a cut, everyone they know is also getting a cut. It's like a light bulb goes off and they finally realize the media and Democrats really are full of shit.

Have you ever read that tax bill, lol?

https://www.npr.org/2017/11/14/562884070/charts-heres-how-gop-s-tax-breaks-would-shift-money-to-rich-poor-americans

How do you retards get bamboozled this hard? Reminds me of a quote:

“For decades, Americans have experienced a populist uprising that only benefits the people it is supposed to be targeting.... The angry workers, mighty in their numbers, are marching irresistibly against the arrogant. They are shaking their fists at the sons of privilege. They are laughing at the dainty affectations of the Leawoof toffs. They are massing at the gates of Mission Hills, hoisting the black flag, and while the millionaires tremble in their mansions, they are bellowing out their terrifying demands. 'We are here,' they scream, 'to cut your taxes.”

― Thomas Frank, What's the Matter With Kansas?: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America

They come along and wave these short-term, tiny tax breaks in front of you, while throwing absolutely massive tax cuts at the wealthy, and then, when the house of cards comes tumbling down a few years later, the tax increases are thrown right back at the lower-income people that got their short-term tax breaks, while the wealthy retain their massive tax cuts.

And then, the GOP will use those tax cuts as justification for cutting social programs that benefit the people that received a tiny, short-term tax break. Say what you want about the GOP, but they're real fucking good at scamazing morons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

Empirical evidence shows that Starve the Beast may be counterproductive, with lower taxes actually corresponding to higher spending. An October 2007 study by Christina D. Romer and David H. Romer of the National Bureau of Economic Research found: "[...] no support for the hypothesis that tax cuts restrain government spending; indeed, [the findings] suggest that tax cuts may actually increase spending. The results also indicate that the main effect of tax cuts on the government budget is to induce subsequent legislated tax increases."[12]

If you work you know its not tiny.

I am a Canadian you fuckstick. You admiting to being that retarded makes me want to feel sorry for you, but all I can reccomend is a lot of fentynl.

The Canadian Trumptards I know are the biggest Trump cultists I've ever seen.

You being Canadian doesn't mean anything.

😄👌

First of all, no one cares what third world shit hole you're from. If anything, that makes you being a daddy dick rider more embarrassing.

It's not though. It's a FISA warrant.

The fisa warrant isn't a warrant? Are you retarded?

Let me guess, you think warrants for foreign intelligence and warrants for criminal activity are the same.

lol

Let me guess you think using a fake dossier to spy on American citizens is a-ok

Lol

Let me guess, youre a huge faggot.

no u

Lol

I don’t think you need to guess

You don't really seem to understand what's going on, have you considered working for Devin Nunes?

I've read part of at least 3 reddit threads on the issue, so I can confidently say I'm an expert. Ama

Would you rather be a vampire, or a werewolf?

Vampires are sexy and have lots of orgies, so def vampire

That is the only correct answer. I hate sexy vampires though I like 30 days of night vamps.

On the other hand, it would be fun to go wolf berserker and rip people apart 🤔

Sally > Angua

Fact

The Nunes memo does not say Steele’s dossier was the only piece of information used to establish probable cause that Page was acting as a foreign agent. Indeed, when FBI agents submit a FISA application to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, they use information from multiple sources, according to current and former FBI officials. What’s more, the same information is not used over and over to extend surveillance under FISA. Instead, every 90 days, the FBI, as a matter of practice, shows evidence to the court that agents are obtaining foreign intelligence information through the surveillance that is in line with the initial FISA application.

 

According to the Nunes memo, the FBI received three 90-day extensions to monitor Page’s communications under FISA authority. This would have required the FBI to show Justice Department lawyers and the FISA court judge that Page’s intercepted communications included relevant foreign intelligence information. In fact, according to the memo, two Trump appointees at the Justice Department — Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and Dana Boente, who served as acting attorney general after Trump fired Sally Yates — reviewed this information and signed off on submissions to the FISA court.

I'm just going to repeat what I always use as one of the simplest examples of why your perspective doesn't match reality. Please read this with real consideration, as much as you want to just snicker and think of witty retorts, I'm gonna need at least some semblance of substantive discussion in order to keep engaging with you.

It's going to be a long comment, but you asked big questions. Give me the time to answer your belief that I'm delusional, with an actual, solid attempt at informing you on myself. I'm already doing all I can to condense it by trying to boil a solid argument down to how it pertains to one example.

I once had an argument - not really much of an argument - with that supposed aerospace engineer that my mom hooked up with for most of my childhood, about the thermodynamics of computer hardware.

First, here's the basic premise of the argument: I say a computer drawing, say, 95 Watts, will output almost 95 Watts of heat. More specifically I'm saying, it's common knowledge among computer experts that computer hardware tends to work almost as efficiently at heating as a space heater drawing the same current. His opinion was that I was wrong on this.

He was factually wrong. More interestingly, his wrongness revealed to me just how far from a competent engineer he really was.

Let me explain why, because it's important to this entire explanation making sense, which is important to discussing whether or not I'm delusional.

To you as a layman, Watts are probably just a measure of electricity, where you're vaguely aware more Watts = more electricity. To me, as a genius who knows a lot about a wide range of topics, I recognize the word as a unit of energy, as engineers and physicists do. If you're a well-informed sort yourself, maybe you do the same.

Wattage is a measure of energy as it flows, as opposed to Watt-hours, which are a measure of total amounts. A 65W bulb keeps drawing 65W constantly the whole time it's plugged in. If it's plugged in 2 hours, that's 65W * 2h = 130W. Watt-hours won't be important to this explanation, just making sure you overall understand how we're measuring energy here and what it means to measure the "amount flowing" at a given instant.

Energy means just what you'd think, and of course it can take forms other than electricity, including heat. When you're doing engineering work, energy is basically always relevant, and there are things you should know about it like the back of your hand.

One of these things is the concept of waste heat in inefficiency. If a machine takes energy, it will have some kind of inefficiencies; this is where energy, which can be measured in precise units like Watts, does something other than the work the machine is intended to do. In an internal combustion motor, for example, some energy is used knocking the pistons in the engine back and forth instead of driving the flywheel. This is energy being wasted in kinetic form. A huge amount of energy just turns into heat as the fuel burns, and some even just from friction between moving parts, where kinetic energy is converted unit-for-unit into heat energy. This is called "waste heat." If you've followed this far, you understand how an engineer would know this concept like the back of their hand. In the engine example, there's an entire cooling system carefully designed to deal with excessive amounts of this waste heat. It's the radiator, one of the most well-known automotive parts.

Now, this dude's specific specialty was aerospace engineering. I think he went to college in the 80's, so by my memory the Space Shuttle would have been the type of thing he was taught about. You know one of the biggest engineering challenges in the space shuttle was the ablative shielding meant to protect it from heat on re-entry? Heat is super important to aerospace engineering, man, if you think a car engineer should know it this is on a whole other level. Waste heat included - rocket engines need careful engineering to manage their excessive waste heat too.

And, one more thing every engineer knows like the back of their hand: to think of waste and heat as fundamentally connected. It might not be literally true, but in an engineer's mind, often the most efficient way to think about it is to consider all wasted energy in the form of heat. Even in the engine example, that kinetic energy knocking the pistons back and forth is still just waiting to be converted into heat every time a piston comes to a stop. Physics basically seems laid out, from an engineer's perspective, to make heat the easiest thing to achieve with anything, ever. Combustion converts energy into its heat form; friction converts energy into its heat form; compression converts energy into its heat form; the sun hitting a black hat converts that light into heat. It starts to seem from an engineer's perspective like everything ultimately converts energy into heat, like any other conversions between other forms are just steps on the road to heat.

Now try to let that set in. Really try to feel the mindset I just explained.

"Work" is the word for what a machine is supposed to do, and its energy expenditure is divided between "work" and "waste." Typically you measure its efficiency as a percentage, the amount of energy in the Work it does, as a percentage of the energy put into it - the remainder being the Waste.

So because of how engineers grow to think of heat, the way they see it, let's say you have a 90% efficient electric motor. That's basically a motor that, if you put 100W into it, its output shaft will spin with 90W of power, and it will accumulate and put out 10W of heat. Like how a combustion engine, if it's 25% efficient, will take an amount of fuel with 1000Wh of energy in it, and spin its flywheel with 250W of power for an hour, while putting out 750W of heat the whole time. You follow?

Space heaters are almost 100% efficient, since their work is other machines' waste. A 100W space heater produces 100W of heat, the only notable inefficiency being whatever heat ends up heating up the material of the heater itself instead of the space around it (which will find its way out eventually too so doesn't technically even count).

A computer is an oddball in the opposite direction - you can't measure its efficiency the same way or they'd all basically be 0% efficient. Can you figure out why? It's pretty obvious. If you can't figure it out, that's ok because you're not an engineer - it's that the "work" the computer outputs is just output signal. It doesn't generally take much energy at all - it's not like the output to the monitor powers the monitor, it just carries a signal. So where does all the other energy go?

To this aerospace engineer, apparently it just fucking disappears or something. I don't know. He couldn't think that shit through. Seriously, we kept talking about this for several minutes before I just laughed him off, he probably figured it out after a moment (I fucking hope so if he actually has a degree) but just could not admit he was wrong.

Now, because you like judging me more than actually thinking sensically, you probably think this is just me showing off a bunch of engineering knowledge to prove I'm like super smrt. But no, obviously that's not the point, that would make no sense.

Here's the point:

You just said "every time someone with knowledge in a specialist subject talks to you they embarrass you." And if I had simply replied "actually, I embarrass my fair share of so-called specialists," or "actually, I grew up with a so-called specialist who I've been embarrassing since I was like 12," you'd have just straight-up not believed me. You'd have just straight up denied what I said. If I said I could give you one concretely true example, you'd have simply denied that too. Yet you can go ahead and verify every single piece of everything I've said here, it's all accurate, I could probably even have my mom get the guy to admit the argument happened if you want to just accuse me of lying about that too.

How can I be this delusional? I'm not, you are. You're probably going to deny my saying that, just like you'd deny me being able to give an example. That's what being delusional is.

Why do I think I'm a genius? Because all the evidence says so. Your question oversimplifies or overcomplicates such a judgment call, depending on how you want to look at it. I've had a whole life to analyze my feats and what they mean, how they compare to others, how certain they are, etc. You intend me to boil all that thinking down to a Reddit comment for you? Yeah right. I can list feats for you, and you can just accuse me of lying or not thinking it through. It's pointless. You've probably read the copypasta of me trying to prove this point by listing feats, like independently thinking of every concept I've seen in philosophy, before ever reading about it. You delude yourself into thinking that doesn't take genius - I'm still trying to figure out how to fight such a delusion, but that copypasta proved listing feats probably isn't the way.

But I knew all that engineering stuff because I was passionate about the topic, and wanted to learn about it, and was capable of understanding the material on my own. Think what you want of me saying this, but I plan to have Stark Industries someday, and I have lots of ideas for that. I've spent so many hours working on car designs and really deeply thinking it through, doing the research, trying to solve inefficiencies, that's how I learned most of the above and then was able to see what an idiot Mr. "Aerospace Engineer" was. This doesn't even scratch the surface of my genius, I have crazy feats that prove genius, all this proves is intellectualism. But it's worth mentioning.

Sorry for any typos, I'm on mobile. Gonna switch to my computer now since it looks like this thread is getting some attention

Please read this with real consideration

Lol k

This response is almost as pathetic as your attempts to tape back your micropenis and lather yourself in mascara, going downtown every night, just to be sexually rejected by even the most disgusting, rancid, mentally ill, homeless rapists.

dont kinkshame me

So spying on Americans is ok as long as you call it something else?

lmao fucking yes? lol did you think you couldn't do that? It's called a warrant, a judge issues one. Do you not like that?

I feel like I'm on /r/anarchism or something with a bunch of Snowden lovers. What are you dudes, like 20?

No, I don't like being spied on. I guess you do or else you wouldn't have asked such an imbecile tier question? Also you have some really poor reasoning skills if you think what I said implies I didn't know what warrants are. I don't know how you tricked yourself into reaching such a dumb conclusion from what I said.

lmao is this supposed to be serious?

The link showing you're wrong and didn't know what you were talking about is definitely very extra serious.

This is surreal.

This isn't law enforcement and doesn't have anything to do with cops lmao

if you're too dumb to read past the headline then most things won't make sense to you.

Why oh why do people on the internet act like they know about this shit lol

Do you even know what EO12333 without googling it? Sit down.

haha sure Mr. Armchair, sure. I'm sure you know what you're talking about and throwing around things you've googled to try and sound iamverysmart definitely means you know more than me and my link showing you were wrong somehow no longer applies.

lmao you fucking idiot. Just because you're 22 doesn't mean people haven't done things with their lives.

Go back to crying about Snowden and the evil deep state.

"done things with their lives" ok you mean like google something and then ignorantly act like an armchair expert? haha please. We know that's all you've done. You're an idiot who thinks all wire taps are from warrants. I hope your mother picks up the phone while you're having phone sex on the trap hotline since you hate privacy soo much.

This is a meaningless fucking asinine question. Fuck off cuck. If you're going to seriouspost in this beloved sanctuary of assfuckery please do it fucking right. Learn to convincingly argue things! This is not your safe space echo chamber where you don't have to put effort into jerking off yourself and others. On t_d, you grab a seat for a nice circlejerk, and everything's already got a massive build up of spent loads. You could easily not get anybody to squirt and you and you neighbor would still be gooey, delicious messes forty seconds into the session, just from what we, the noble denizens of r/drama, refer to as "ambient splooge (are you taking notes, dicklicker???)." Where is the "WOW" factor?? Daddy would call this LOW ENERGY and I can't help but agree. DO NOT EVEN FUXKING BOTHER TRYING TO GREASE MY PIPE IF THIS IS THE HALF ASSED BULLSHIT YOU ARE BRINGING TO MY FUCKING JERK!!!!!! I read this comment and IMMEDIATELY lost my THREE (you heard me!!) inch (sry u rushn shills use cuck-tric (LOLBTFO)) long (emphasis on long lel) SCHLONG (emphasis on LONG).

YOUR ARGUMENT IS SHIT THIS MEMO IS SHIT

YOUR MEME ARE FUCKING SHIT

THERE IS NOTHING EDGY ABOUT HAVING YOUR ASSHOLE REAMED BY A SEPTAGENERIAN ILLITERATE

I EAT ANOTHER MANS CUM OUT OF YOUR MOMS SHITTY ASSHOLE AND YOU ARE MORE OF A CUCK THEN ME

FUCK OFF YOU MOTHERFUCKING COCKSUCKING FUCKING CUCK

The saddest thing I've seen in this whole stunt was Speaker Ryan trying to convince people that this was about transparency and has nothing to do with Mueller's reputation. Dude has absolutely no balls anymore and can't control his people.

shit that has been literally known for months

Trump blue balling the entire nation. Now thats some next level cucking.

I was promised blood and treason.

I got a bunch of thirsty agenda posters to play with, it's good enough for me.

I would expect as much after reading about how he cucked his wife.

zoz

zle

zozzle

shit bot

Consider dying :⁾

fuck oxus

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Fruit+of+the+Poisonous+Tree

Gonna be interesting to see if we head down this road.

Trump conspired with Russia, but can't be prosecuted because of illegal process of obtaining evidence for maximum drama.

Trump conspired with Russia

Go on...

You betcha.

Not really, though. Nunes' opinion doesn't trump all the people along the way that need to approve a FISA.

What part of this do you consider an opinion?

Steelers credibility. A FISA warrant doesn't need to reach the same bar as criminal investigations do, either. EO12333, etc.

Isn't it troubling that corroboration of the dossier was in it's infancy at the time of the initial FISA warrant issuing according to the head of the FBI's counterintelligence division? This means they took a memo that was only vouched for by a foreign spy and in no way substantiated by our own intelligence agencies and used it as the justification to spy on an American citizen.

Even if we considered him a credible source, shouldn't our intelligence community properly examine all claims before using them to issue a warrant to spy on an American?

No. How much corroboration do you think most FISA warrants get? Literally "this guy of interest in Yemen talks to this guy in St. Louis, but we need a warrant to see what they're saying and if it's of interest."

A judge says "Alright, I'll give you 60 days."

This is utterly normal.

Well no it's not utterly normal to use what amounts to a gossip hitpiece put together by one political party to attack it's opposition and totally unvetted by our own intelligence agencies as an excuse to spy on said political party. Comet himself described the dossier as "salacious and unverified" yet we should consider it ample evidence to spy on an American citizen?

That's not normal, and if it is we need to change what's normal.

Yes, it Is normal. This is how you get FISA warrants. Welcome to the world. You think there should be evidence of...what, exactly, before getting a warrant to collect foreign intelligence?

How about this, tell me what evidence you believe was presented that did justify the FISA warrant.

Unorthodox interactions with the Russian government and the information provided in the Steele dossier is already enough, but there may be more. I dunno, I didn't write up the FISA request.

You think this is abnormal, but as someone who has actually requested FISAs before it's just not.

So our normal society is one in which a politically motivated dossier which is known and acknowledged to be unvetted and unreliable can serve as a justification to spy in an American citizen. Are you ok with this?

unvetted

How else are you supposed to vet it?

unreliable

As a source, Steele's reliability would be B, at the lowest, and the intel would probably be a 3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_source_and_information_reliability

Yes, as someone who's actually worked in this field, I'm fine with a FISA for a B3.

I think you would be, too, unless it went against your team.

Intelligence source and information reliability

Intelligence source and information reliability rating systems are used in intelligence analysis. This rating is used for information collected by a Human Intelligence Collector. This type of information collection and job duty exists within many government agencies around the world.

According to Ewen Montagu, John Godfrey devised this system when he was director of the N.I.D. around the time of World War II

The system employed by the United States Armed Forces rates the reliability of the source as well as the information.

^{[ PM | Exclude me | Exclude from subreddit | FAQ / Information | Source | Donate ] Downvote to remove | v0.28}

I think we have some disagreements on how spying on American citizens should be handled. I wouldn't want them to have the power to spy on some Democratic aid or politician because some Republicans paid for a "dossier" that said they should, even after acknowledging said dossier is "salacious and unverified".

That's how FISA's work. It's not a warrant to prosecute a crime, it's a warrant to collect foreign intelligence, so the bar is much lower. Between that and Page already being on the IC's radar for his connections to the Russian government, it's pretty open and shut. And again (I dunno if i said it you or the other guy), that's assuming that he wasn't mentioned or alluded to by those Russian government actors that the IC is already collecting on in the first place.

If there's nothing there, there's nothing there and the FISA expires. If there's something there, the US gets valuable foreign intelligence. That's how it works.

A high bar for FI sounds nice in theory, but if you were in charge of collecting intelligence I'm not sure you'd agree. "Your Honor, our potential target is talking to a guy in Yemen that we have no evidence he's related to three times a week. That guy in Yemen is a known financier for AQAP. We don't know what they're talking about, but it could be of high interest, we just want the warrant to see. What? No, we can't prove anything because we can't collect on the guy without your say so."

It creates a Catch 22 but thankfully common sense has cut through that.

You're sidestepping the fact this was paid for by the targets political opponent and that 2 subsequent FISA renewals were granted on the same evidence despite, and correct me if I'm wrong, FISA renewals requiring an introduction of new evidence to proceed.

You're sidestepping the fact this was paid for by the targets political opponent

This doesn't matter at all. It might matter if it was against Trump (although since it purposely doesn't mention any other sources, we have no idea), but for Carter Page, a person already known to have very iffy Russian connections? Not at all.

FISA renewals requiring an introduction of new evidence to proceed.

Sorta, but not really. It needs to be shown either that FI has been collected by way of the FISA (or on the person, a small distinction that's unimportant here) or that there's more evidence that there could be.

Either "See, judge, this is why we asked for it!" or "Well, no, we don't have anything yet, but here's new evidence that suggests that we will." Which happened, I dunno, but I highly doubt people would risk their careers by admitting there's neither of them and still asking for (and receiving) an extension.

Well all I can say is if you're legitimately as "inside" as you present yourself then we need to have some serious changes to the FISA courts. The memo doesn't only cover Steele though, and I don't think this is just going to disappear and be written off as nothing as many are trying to do.

How would you go about getting a FISA warrant for someone inside the US?

Remember, it's just to gain intel, it's not about criminal prosecution. Like what would you do? Also, it's not like I'm a huge insider, I've just worked in the IC. There's 100,000+ people that can say they're doing so right now.

On reddit everyone is a kid/student or an IT guy, so it's only weird here.

I guess I'd say there would need to be something to present other than a political hitjob financed by an opposition party in the presidential election that the head of the FBI deemed salacious and unverified. There has to be some sort of standard here, it can't be "this guy claimed this thing without any verifiable evidence whatsoever so let's spy on Americans".

We do need to keep in mind this isn't "some guy in Yemen" as you've been using as an example, this an accusation that a member of a presidential campaign team is working for a foreign government, it's not your run of the mill case. You'd think such an extraordinary claim would require even a mote of evidence.

I guess I'd say there would need to be something to present other than a political hitjob

See, you're starting with this conclusion. You're making it political. The FBI doesn't care. FISA judges don't care.

We do need to keep in mind this isn't "some guy in Yemen" as you've been using as an example, this an accusation that a member of a presidential campaign team is working for a foreign government, it's not your run of the mill case. You'd think such an extraordinary claim would require even a mote of evidence.

That's the thing: it's treated like anything else. It doesn't get extra special treatment. The IC doesn't care. Evil Deep State does not care.

I've no idea if you are involved in the IC as you claim, but if you are, I am so glad that the guy you are responding to isn't. Your interaction with him is how my interactions go when laypeople make outrageous claims about the field of science I am active in. There's absolutely no working knowledge there, but there's so much certainty in the face of it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm glad I get to live during the craft beer explosion.

Steele was dismissed until a yahoo News article he wrote was used to make him more legitimate.

So circular reporting aka it's true because I said it's true

Purge the traitors desu

Steele was dismissed until a yahoo News article he wrote was used to make him more legitimate.

lol no

Lol yes

Wow! It's... fucking nothing.

Not nothing. Not nothing. You're nothing!

This is the best something. Sometimes people come up and they say to me - and they know I'm a very stable genius with very good genes from a very good family - Wharton, Wharton, Business, Wharton School of Business, very good genes, some of the best genes - they say to me - and they never say to Hillary because who wants to approach that? She's so unapproachable folks, just a nasty nasty lady - the people out there are saying "LOCK HER UP" and I don't know, I don't know, maybe some second amendment people would have something to say about it, too but this is definitely a something. Something so good, you wouldn't believe!

We've got the best somethings, folks. Isn't that right?

Actually, it's pretty good proof that the FBI is using fan fiction to bust down pol targets for cash like some kind of retarded version of black water. Instead of bullets, it's golden shower/goku word files.

Supposedly a dossier circlejerked and self-referencing itself over and over with little proof was total evidence that Russia hacked every voting machine in the country. https://www.nytimes.com/news-event/russian-election-hacking

I mean if that's the hot take people want to go with this fine whatever lets reset the machine then. But nobody wants that as far as I can tell.

If it turns out to be true that the FISA warrant would not have been granted without the Steele information, and that top officials deliberately hid the bias Steele obviously held (in being paid by the opposition candidate to obtain this information, this is very, very bad for Democrats.

This whole thing is awful for America, obviously, because it has turned the intelligence community into a political bludgeon and therefor weakened it by ruining its impartiality.

What a clusterfuck.

Republicans paid Steele first numbnuts.

That doesn't matter! Republicans, Never-Trumpers, the DNC, THAT IS IRRELEVANT!

What is the primary concern here is whether or not a warrant was sought and obtained through a source with questionable bias and whom was being paid by INSERT_OPPOSITION_HERE, and whether that fact was hidden from the court.

numbnuts.

That's how FISA warrants work, dude.

No. Wiretap warrants aren’t “hooked on a feeling”. They require evidence that is clear and reasonable. So, if you (purportedly) LIE BY OMISSION through the initial and three subsequent re-ups on that warrant, you are doing it dirty.

You fucking child.

Are you cosplayng a retard or are you for real? You're reading a biased memo from a fucking farming congressmen and complaining about bias with a professional opposition research entity who works for both parties?

Why would it not be prudent to disclose, in the application for the warrant, that much of the information being presented as probable cause for the warrant was paid for by (insert opposition here)?

Are YOU fucking retarded? Do YOU not see how failure to disclose this information is damaging to the process?

Oh wow you're not kidding. You're actually retarded enough to think a bipartisan research group and the FBI are running a biased campaign against Daddy 😂😂

Keep up, tard. I do NOT support Trump.

Then why are you sperging out about an edited memo released by an unqualified congressmen who recused himself?

This, you fucking troglodyte, is probably... no wait, is DEFINITELY, some of the very best, primo fucking DRAMA we are going to see in the next several years.

Arguing for the authenticity of the memo =/= enjoying the drama the memo creates.

Are you not entertained?

Usually not. I suffer from chronic irrational irritation due to my mental illness.

Estrogen pills will do that.

So will hypomania

Mine or yours? ;)

The pills?

No, it was just a joke. I’ve been commenting all over this thread, so I thought you were making a clever joke about my “hyperactivity”.

Oh I get it

That's pretty stupid. If an opponent campaign discover that a politician diddled kids, the police perfectly could use that to do something about it.

If the source of that information is the only or primary source (as is alleged), one naturally wonders if the information is in fact, true.

See what i mean? I'm not saying this memo is true. But IF (and that's a big IF) it's true, it implies that Steele's info is suspect, the FBI knew it was suspect, and because they knew, they hid where the info came from.

If the source of that information is the only or primary source (as is alleged), one naturally wonders if the information is in fact, true.

Yes. But it's enough to wonder, which is normally enough to do a search.

This is not about a prosecution, but about collection of data that could lead toward a prosecution.

Yes. But it's enough to wonder, which is normally enough to do a search.

But it's not supposed to be enough for the US to spy on one of its own citizens. And that's the point.

But it's not supposed to be enough for the US to spy on one of its own citizens.

My sides have entered orbit.

Wait a second- wiretap, especially an ongoing wiretap, the federal government against a citizen requires a lot more than a typical search. Please correct me if I’m wrong here, as I’m not a lawyer, but it’s my understanding that wire taps are much more serious deal

Wait a second- wiretap, especially an ongoing wiretap, the federal government against a citizen requires a lot more than a typical search.

The NSA closed door while I wasn't looking?

All US citizen are taped. They are just taped "by the allies", that then give their data to the NSA.

Right- that’s shitty. It was shitty when Bush instituted it and shitty when Obama allowed it to continue.

SO visibly, yes, with bi partisan support, spying on american citizen is a-okay.

No. Maybe i am misunderstanding what you’re saying, but I don’t believe it’s OK to spy on an American citizen if you have bipartisan support. I believe it’s OK to spy on American citizen if you have real and demonstrable evidence, unimpeachable evidence, to support that spying.

Again, I’m not sure how this is going to shake out. I hope for everybody sake, but this memo is a load of shit. Because if it isn’t, then we have a real problem here, and it’s the same thing we’ve been saying for years now-the overreach of the government begun with Bush and his post 9/11 spy program is a big fucking problem

Because if it isn’t, then we have a real problem here

Lol. As I have said before, it's already the case. Everyone is spied on in burger land.

I’m aware of that. My concern is that it’s still ongoing and has potentially allowed for a relaxation of the quality of evidence and probable cause in instances NOT related to “terrorism”, which was the catch-all that allowed it to be so in the first place.

That’s the fear with respect to this memo

That’s the fear with respect to this memo

The FISA court is a farce, existing just to lend the thinnest veneer of legitimacy to spying on anyone the NSA feels like then sharing it with the FBI who then lie about it. But this memo is also a farce given that Nunes voted to reauthorize this shit just three weeks ago.

I agree- have you seen the stats regarding the number of warrant apps that are rejected?

It’s... concerning, to say the least

Sure, but when months after the initial warrant you have video of the politician diddling the kid, it seems stupid to go back and start mincing words about how they got the warrant, no?

Fruit of the poisonous tree

That applies to things obtained illegally. I.E., without a warrant.

If the warrant was obtained through deception, any evidence procured could be invalidated. But this hypothetical is pointless- from what we understand, there hasn’t been anything concrete (that we yet know of) directly tying Trump to Russian collusion.

This memo, by the way, is starting to look like bullshit. We will see as the week goes on

But this hypothetical is pointless- from what we understand, there hasn’t been anything concrete (that we yet know of) directly tying Trump to Russian collusion.

I think your problem is that you are losing the trees for the forest.

It doesn't actually matter if we tie Trump himself to Russia. There are other people involved who still may have committed crimes and still need to be investigated.

Of course. But let’s not kid ourselves- Trump is the prize

How do you know that happened?

I don’t! That’s the allegation!

Anyone can make an allegation. I can say /u/JumbledFun films in vertical, but it would be reckless and irresponsible for me to do so.

You fiend.

And you’re right- anyone can make an allegation. The point is, the Republicans are putting a whole lot of weight behind this, So they better have something more than just this memo in their pocket. I’m reading this memo and responding to it based on the assumption that they have some clear and cogent reason to believe it to be true. If they don’t, then as I’ve said in this thread multiple times, God help them

Just some food for thought- Carter Page has not been indicted. You’d think he would be, right? Flynn, Manafort, etc, but no Page? I mean... what?

So IF this memo has real truth to it (a big IF), you choose to launch an investigation based on a wiretap on the ONE GUY you’ve chosen not to indict?

Huh?

Additional interesting thought experiment- what if carter page flipped and has some unarguable evidence?

Republicans would have noticed he wasn’t indicted and then would smartly realize they couldn’t argue the veracity of his claims, but argue the legality of HOW THOSE CLAIMS WERE ACQUIRED?

what if this whole memo is meant to put up enough of a block to stall until 2020 primary where they can dump trump, cut him loose, disavow the Nunes memo as conjecture (which is why you don’t see a tremendous # of Republicans that want to continue their careers argue it strenuously) and still argue that they were “only interested in the veracity of the process”?

Page has either flipped or there’s nothing there.

We already had that shit with the IRS, why not the FBI too

It's good for America.

Purge the national traitors, glory to the national state and glory to our leader.

Lol, there’s a biiiiiig gap between the allegation and what might be true.

If this memo is the only card the republicans are holding, and they don’t have any other substantive evidence behind it, they just fucked up majorly.

And if Trump attempts to fire Rosenstein based on this memo alone, it will end his presidency.

As a conservative, I fucking KNEW that getting into bed with Trump would ruin the party. But fuck the party- they bought the ticket and now they gotta take the ride. It doesn’t change the values I believe in.

Hardly the truth doesn't really matter in real life the accusation is enough.

Order the purges and falsify new evidence to justify them don't wait for evidence to justify the act in the first place. Ensure you go with enough force in case those deemed enemies of the state resist arrest.

That's a funny statement Timmy let's see how it works out when rosenstien is suddenly found to have documents linking him to democrats suddenly discovered.

Can we make Oliver Stone here a mod?

I am a mod though

Oh your llama? Didn’t know it was an alt.

I relish an impeachment though, no joke. Republicans need a Saul on the road to Damascus moment

Thinking the impeachment will work is a silly fever dream the nationalists have won kiddo

I don’t really care if it works- I care that it maybe (wishful thinking) shakes the Republican Party up and makes them get back to their core values of personal liberty, limited government, and adherence to the constitution. Trump is and never was a republican- he is a game show host with loyalty only to his own “brand”.

We didn’t have a great pool of candidates this run, though I liked Kasich a bit. I wish McCain were younger (the age he was in 2000 when he ran). I can deal with moderates in either side of the aisle. This... this has been depressing. Shit, a wish Romney had sat out 2012 and run in 2016 instead.

Who wants limited govt when you can have an autocratic national state where true freedom is mandatory not this anarchy we call freedom but natural freedom.

Kasich is a compromiser he's worthless hell work with democrats against the nation. Moderates are the greater enemies of the nation they undermine and allow the situation to fester

Moderates “close the loop” of extreme partisanism by fostering genuine debate and compromise.

Now come on, stop milking me; my teets ache

Ah jeez Rick.

I could have read that shit on TD. This was overhyped af.

That said, this won't / shouldn't derail the investigation by Mueller, because it seems to confirm that the FBI investigation began w/Papadapolous before the FISA application targeting Page.

This changes nothing in regards to Trump investigation. Just adds spice and flavor.

Summary: you have to explicitly like Daddy or you can not prosecute him! Any bias is unacceptable REEEEEEEEEEEE

What should genuinely worry you all here is that you can legally be spied upon based upon a yahoo news article. If that doesn't scare you, there's something wrong with you.

A large news source calming your doing illegal things is exactly the kind of thing that should get people to start investigating you

Infowars.com is a large "news" organisation, so by your logic that makes it okay to spy on people because of what it reports.

The InfoWars website receives approximately 10 million monthly visits, making it more visited than some mainstream news websites such as The Economist and Newsweek

The of course the news site quality would also be taken into account

There is a massive difference between news sources and the "alternative news"

A story claiming someone is embezzling should get investigations while one claiming your a literal demon eating children is likely safe to ignore

Yahoo news stories don't even tend to be original and are usually put out by the AP

Yahoo news stories don't even tend to be original and are usually put out by the AP

If you read the memo Steele this was a Yahoo News exclusive and Steele met with them, which the FISA application lied about. Which brings us back to my original point which you've now amusingly made your own.

of course the news site quality would also be taken into account

Yahoo news is not a quality journalistic outlet, especially for investigative journalism.

They had an interview with Steele which made the FBI more eager to talk with him

They were not basing their investigation on Yahoo news, they were found a person of interest becomes of it

and I'm sure that the FBI looks into "reasonable" accusations and sources on Infowars, just with little interest

If you talk about killing high ranking government officials on facebook you go on a watch list and get investigated. If you are forth grader it ends in 10 minutes, if you are both armed and trained and have a violent history than they open the book and take you seriously. They platform dosn't matter if the person sourced is creditable

The Carter Page FISA application also cited extensively a september 23, 2016 Yahoo News article by Michael Isifoff.

The article does not corroborate the Steele dossier because it is derived from information leaked by Steele himself to Yahoo News.

See my earlier point about not being a respected investigative journalistic outlet. The whole point is to find multiple independent sources before you to to print at least two usually three.

They are using Steele's own quotes

Unless you are think Yahoo news is just making quotes and attributing them to Steele it dons't matter

The memo states he met with them and here is a major news organisation reporting that happened. So by your own logic it is now true.

Using a news source as a reason for a warrant to gather more information or to start an investigation is different from using a news source to get out of it

Law enforcement is almost always starts with a second hand account

Its a lot easier to get eyes on you than it is to get them off you

You can be spies on with a credible informant.

And the courts have declined to define credible so...yeh.

You're telling me that if I act against the US with hostile foreign powers and the FBI suspects I'm up to shenanigans I can be spied on? Jesus christ man, the horror.

lmao you remind me of reddit, 2013, freaking out about Snowden and his nonsense.

Can you explain how that is?

How you remind me of that? If an authority (cops, NSA, whatever in between) can convince a judge that you or someone you talk to (or your conversations with them) can be a source of foreign intelligence, you can be the target of a FISA warrant.

If that scares you, okay, but now the entire conceit of a warrant must, because that's how they work. Likewise, if the cops can convince a judge there's evidence that you committed a crime in your house, you can have a search warrant levied against your house.

It's just how warrants work.

I'm not complaining about warrants, I'm saying yahoo news is a joke and can barely be called a news organisation. They 90% rehost other content and have no experience with actual investigative journalism. I have no problem with credible and respect journalism from professional outlets being used.

It wasn't from Yahoo news.

Second page point number 2, says so right in the memo...

No, Yahoo reported what Steele collected.

The article does not corroborate the Steele dossier because it is derived from information leaked by Steele himself to Yahoo News.

Keep yourself 100% safe you fucking agenda posting retard.

No one said it did, lol. Remember you're reading Nunes opinion.

Well here is a major news outlet reporting that.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/02/02/fisa-memo-steele-fired-as-fbi-source-for-breaking-cardinal-rule-leaking-to-media.html

The FISA warrant was partially based off of what Steele collected. Not what Yahoo reported. I don't know how much clearer to make that.

Your quote backs up what he said though. Yahoo got the info from Steele not the other way around.

Yahoo omitted to say they got the information from Steele and gave a false impression they did the investigation themselves.

Ahhh, Snowden. Reddit continues to consider him a hero and it just amazes me exactly how stupid this website is when it comes to any serious topic.

Lionizing the mundane is Reddit's favorite pastime.

You’ve been spies on and document since birth.

Yes but there are degrees of invasion, not to mention on if they can or c,annot legally use that information against you.

Dude, if you wanted to scared about that, the time to be scared was in 2001 when the Patriot Act was signed.

As if I need to read it to form a strong opinion on it.

FISA warrants have to be approved by about a dozen different people, judges included, and they require a mountain of evidence.

Nunes singled out specific pieces of evidence.

God damn, this retarded cow farmer is predictable.

And I wouldn't call Christopher Steele "biased".

If he believed almost everything he put in that dossier was accurate, it's less about being biased against Republicans and more about being biased against Russian assets taking over the US.

This won't stop Daddy's army of incels demanding investigators either worship Daddy or don't exercise their right to have an opinion.

r/news keeps deleting posts about it. 🤣

real posts or fake posts

scribd??? if this comment section ain't damn good I'm downvotin'

This will surely lead to her arrest.

That is the weakest TS document I've ever seen

Did Devin Nunes classify it that himself to make his dick feel bigger