That’s obvious, my point is that more women in a field means the work is devalued especially so. And I used programming specifically as an example. Nice reading comprehension skills.
I'm sure you think that but it's not true. In fields like medicine where the total supply of labor is controlled (limited residency positions), women are now the majority of graduates but healthcare is more expensive than ever.
Doctors need to spend atleast 7 years to become qualified, nurses need to spend a couple of weeks in community college to learn how to apply a thermometer and take someone's pressure. obiously one needs to be paid more than the other.
Being a doctor obviously requires more training and should be paid better but you don't honestly think becoming a nurse is that easy. Where I live it's at least 4 years, often 5, to become a nurse.
My mother is a doctor, my so is a nurse. Their work is incredibly different and the amount and type of knowledge is totally different. Doctors are not physically giving shots. Dealing with IVs, cleaning bed pans, or doing the manual stuff. Doctors are there to diagnose the issue, analyze the problem, and recommend a correct treatment. Nurses are there to help facilitate that treatment.
Even Nurse practitioners have greatly different skill sets, APRN are great for clinical work and urgent care, or really any acute non-emergent situation, as well as some minor chronic issue, because they specialize in preventative medicine.
However, they still have less training then doctors, and do not have the same ability to prescribe meds which reflects that.
Even then, the that’s a singular speciality, a large amount of doctors specialize, and nurses are not able to do a specialists work with the training available. APRNs are not able to be an oncologist or pulmonary or cardiac. Your APRN is not going into surgery, and is also not working with you on your kidney failure.
LPNs, the non-practitioner kind, have an even larger difference, and definitely have no where near enough training to be a doctor, they can gain experience but there is a reason nurses and doctors do different jobs.
i bet you’re one of the tards that voted for the same human capital inflation that made everything you buy more expensive because you were too much of a moralfag brainlet to draw the logical conclusions of it
Has the surge in immigration since 1970 led to slower wage growth for native-born workers? Academic research does not provide much support for this claim. The evidence suggests that when immigration increases the supply of labor, firms increase investment to offset any reduction in capital per worker, thereby keeping average wages from falling over the long term. Moreover, immigrants are often imperfect substitutes for native-born workers in U.S. labor markets. That means they do not compete for the same jobs and put minimal downward pressure on natives’ wages. This might explain why competition from new immigrants has mostly affected earlier immigrants, who experienced significant reductions in wages from the surge in immigration. In contrast, studies find that immigration has actually raised average wages of native-born workers during the last few decades.
Immigrants are at the forefront of innovation and ingenuity in the United States, accounting for a disproportionately high share of patent filings, science and technology graduates, and senior positions at top venture capital-funded firms. In addition, the presence of immigrants often creates opportunities for less-skilled native workers to become more specialized in their work, thereby increasing their productivity.
Immigration generally also improves the government’s fiscal situation, as many immigrants pay more in taxes over a lifetime than they consume in government services. However, native-born residents of states with large concentrations of less-educated immigrants may face larger tax burdens, as these immigrants pay less in taxes and are more likely to send children to public schools.
H1B isn't immigration in general though, it involves specifically importing workers for a specific position that can't be filled at the asking price. That does have an effect on wages, although how big of a problem it actually is relative to other issues is personal opinion.
Don't you find it amazing that american workers can be replaced by people that can't even do toilet. How much of loser do you have to be to lose to person that shit on the street.
"hard" isn't the only variable that affects salary.
"Computer programming" jobs of yore were mostly in public and academic sectors. There wasn't much money flowing around in private industry to invest in them. Modern software engineers are in pretty constant demand all over the private sector so hey guess what, that frees up a lot of money to drive salaries higher.
Also go read bweazel's excellent description of what "computer programming" jobs were like back in the early days. Many jobs in the industry back then were "hard" in the sense that they involved a lot of boring tedious work. It's nerve-wracking, which is why early computer science pioneers automated those jobs in a hurry--many of those early pioneers were women looking to escape that tedium. The fact is though, low-skill jobs that are "hard" ion that sense are historically low paid, because plenty of people qualified to do it.
Yeah I would usually ping temporallocality to let them know the various ways their post failed but u/bweazel's rebuttal was so amazingly thorough there's really nothing left to say on the topic.
From the opposite side of the fence, when meet, talk to, or hear about women like /u/ironicseal I'm glad as fuck for being 100% gay. Men are dicks but thats nothing compare to their bullshit.
I've said this so many times in my life from experience, men can be assholes/dicks whatever but they're very upfront and blunt about it. You know exactly what you're dealing with most of the time.
If you have something going on with a woman, shit will sneak up on you slowly but surely from weird corners and behind your back. Before you know it you've been screwed in so many ways you wouldn't believe it.
I've seen it plenty of times with family/friends/internet and other places.
Funny thing is, you say that you're "sexist", but any time women are in their own groups (been a fly on that wall often, due to being the only male in the space and being gay, i'm perceived as all but nonexistent), they will be the first to admit women are more devious and back stabbing and dare I say "Toxic" and a variety of ways nearly unique and certainly more standard for them.
And frankly /u/ironicseal comment is stupid on so many more levels, because of this, does she real "wish" she was part of the group that has a reportedly higher rate of domestic abuse then both heterosexual women and homosexual men? Like check your privilege and you're ignorance, that fertilization of homosexual relationships as if we suffer no issues is disgusting.
probably because women are the smaller weaker gender physically, they naturally grow up instinctively finding ways to fuck people that don't involve just straight punching someone in the face.
Lol someone says they don’t have the energy to argue with someone online. Like bitch all you have to do is type if you can not even do that I mean I wouldn’t be paying to bitch top dollar.
It’s important for my significant other to have the same ideologies as me.
/u/ironicseal so just become a parrot for the beliefs of the man you're interested in like every other thot determined to get a good dicking instead of wallowing in self righteousness like you are now
Hello. If you continue to follow my profile through Reddit and reply to my comments I'm going to report you to the admins for harassment. I've done it with other profiles and they take it very seriously. This is your warning. Thanks. 👌
Why are you following me around reddit and replying to my comments? This is harassment and I will report it to the admins. They take this kind of thing very seriously. 😡🤬
DUBNER: Right. So let me just make sure I’m clear. You’re saying there’s no discrimination on the Uber side, on the supply side, because the algorithm is gender-blind and the price is the price. And you’re saying there’s no discrimination on the passenger side. So does that mean that discrimination accounts for zero percent of whatever pay gap you find or don’t find between male and female Uber drivers?
LIST: That’s correct.
DUBNER: All right. So you were telling us that your prediction was that there’d be either zero or a positive pay gap for women. What kind of pay gap did you actually find if any, between male and female Uber drivers ?
LIST: We found something very surprising. What you find is that men make about 7 percent more per hour on average…For doing the exact same job in a setting where work assignments are made by a gender-blind algorithm and pay structure’s tied directly to output and not negotiated.
da fuck is this cringeanarchy shit-tier comment? guys i get that r/subredditdrama is a liberal echo chamber but this sub doesn't have to turn into an alt-right KKK supporters' haven in response
English is a second language for me, so what they're saying in the last paragraph is that men earn 7 percent more per hour because men are more productive right?
We found something very surprising. What you find is that men make about 7 percent more per hour on average…For doing the exact same job in a setting where work assignments are made by a gender-blind algorithm and pay structure’s tied directly to output and not negotiated.
When you look at experience, really men are more experienced than women because of two primary reasons. One, women drop off the platform more often than men. But, two, even for those who are on the platform for the same amount of time, since the average man drives about 50 percent more trips per week than the average woman, you still have the experience effect for those who have been on the platform the same number of months.
I mean, there’s probably a lot of Nice Guys™ and male feminists taking Ubers, which would probably scare off the women drivers. Wouldn’t want to get raped, ya know.
If I'm putting this together correctly it's saying basically that hardware used to be the more masculine and prestigious and well paid part, and that software wages and prestiege rose with the percentage of men... but we shouldn't even THINK about how different programming is today compared to then. I don't even know how to explain how ridiculous this is.
/u/temporalsreality why don't you focus on the other, less ridiculous, examples in that article like how an 1800's anti-suffragist's idea that women should be educated in order to better serve and teach men (and do it for cheap too) is obviously the most critical factor in why teachers are paid so little.
As a side note, anyone have this in pdf: https://academic.oup.com/sf/article-abstract/88/2/865/2235342 I wanna see what other professions are either wildly different from 70 years ago in both scale and influence or consistently manages to fail to get enough local votes to get raises. I'm sure my mind will be blown by the insidious sexism of literally picking a different major for double the money.
Never met any hardware guys. Are we talking about routing a PCB and picking which particular lego parts to solder on (which I have done once, poorly, for a simple project), or are we talking about the fucking wizards that get transistors to 10 nanometers?
There's also FPGA people that do... something that I don't understand but is apparently basically just writing software with hardware and a lot of it is done automatically with some weird program? There was also some kind of story I heard about how people make chips involving giving a computer a rough idea and then it chomps on it for a month and spits out something that's a goddamn indecipherable convoluted mess, but it works so nobody cares.
I'm a Mech E, so I never had to care. I just know that we have like 5 programmers, and don't need a specialized hardware guy. Just buy a COTS microcontroller and program it, or it runs on a regular computer.
Never met any hardware guys. Are we talking about routing a PCB and picking which particular lego parts to solder on (which I have done once, poorly, for a simple project), or are we talking about the fucking wizards that get transistors to 10 nanometers?
There's also FPGA people that do... something that I don't understand but is apparently basically just writing software with hardware and a lot of it is done automatically with some weird program? There was also some kind of story I heard about how people make chips involving giving a computer a rough idea and then it chomps on it for a month and spits out something that's a goddamn indecipherable convoluted mess, but it works so nobody cares.
I'm a Mech E, so I never had to care. I just know that we have like 5 programmers, and don't need a specialized hardware guy. Just buy a COTS microcontroller and program it, or it runs on a regular computer.
I mean RF wizardry at 28nm. PCB design is still complex at high frequencies when you don't even use lumped components (inductors, caps etc) and just use pieces of transmission line for everything.
FPGA is pretty cool stuff, you basically have hardware that you can modify.
There was also some kind of story I heard about how people make chips involving giving a computer a rough idea and then it chomps on it for a month and spits out something that's a goddamn indecipherable convoluted mess, but it works so nobody cares.
Some big players do it seriously, but they have to write super complex testing and assertions and shit to ensure the result actually works as intended and can be reproduced consistently.
Then there's the hobbysts that just want to have fun, their results are interesting but they have little practical or even academical use.
There is a wage gap, it's even in the research journal people love to cite. It is a 7% difference, main reason being the jobs different genders seem to choose on their own.
Every single time I see this subject come up I see people chime that the wage gap exists and then as soon as someone asks ''Yeah, sure but do you know why there's a gap?'' they stick their heads in the sand or cover their ears while screaming THERE'S A WAGE GAP THERE'S A WAGE GAP! Who cares about the actual reasons?
And the amount of times I've seen stuff like:
- You're just a troll
- Don't have energy
- rolls eyes
- ''Whatever, you wouldn't understand anyway''
in response to facts/studies is absolutely unbelievable, not once have I seen the people who support that there's a wage gap actually take the time and freaking LISTEN. Listening is 100% out of the question.
Fuck reasons, let's all scream in harmony loud enough that it drowns out any real logic.
I mean, have you ever worked with women in an office environment? Most of them should be grateful they even get paid half of what men are getting paid.
That said, I've worked with women that were extremely talented and driven and deservedly make more money than me, but they are definitely the exception rather than the rule.
You need to look for men in coffee shops, book stores, Claire’s, etc where you can find a soy boy that is willing to deny reality for sub par feminist sex. Sage
How can people actually deny it exists AT ALL. It does take a special variety of ignorance for sure.
You sound like a little girl who isn't getting her way, /u/caljl
Also no one is really claiming that for the exact same job the pay disparity is at the full 30 percent but an awful lot of people drag out that old strawman feminist constantly
You're saying "OMFG HOW CAN PEOPLE BE SO IGNORANT AND DENY THE EXISTENCE OF THIS THING I BELIEVE IN," then you're also saying that the data used to support your argument is false?
The wage gap doesn't hold up to scrutiny. If companies were actually paying employees differing salaries for the EXACT SAME JOB, we'd be hearing about new lawsuits every single day. But we don't, because they don't.
If you wanna make more money, start roofing houses. Or start selling gussy. You know women out-earn men in porn by like a LOT, right?
Im not sure what you thought I was saying. My point was that there is an overall disparity in men and womens pay. Not in the same job, not at the same level. Although I do personally believe there to be some level of wage disparity in some same job cases. But I do not think discrimination is the only reason for this.
The data to support an overall wage gap is quite extensive. I know there isn`t a great deal of viable evidence to put the gap for the exact same job at anywhere near 30 percent. That was my point. I did not think many people really claimed that there was such an extensive gap for the same job. I maybe wrong but I think the number is definitely inflated by opponents to any notion of wage disparity between genders.
To reiterate: I did not say that the gap was at 30 percent for the same job. I said it was not. I do think there is some form of a gap but not at exact same job level. Or atleast not one that comes close to 30 percent. I do believe however that there is a larger gap OVERALL.
What exactly do you think I have misunderstood. I think the person who quoted me has however made a large error in understanding.
I said this:
"Also no one is really claiming that for the exact same job the pay disparity is at the full 30 percent but an awful lot of people drag out that old strawman feminist constantly"
Meaning that I did not think many people actually believe there to be a gap of 30 percent at the same job at the same level. This size gap (and its about 23 not 30 actually, I was being general) is overall. I said that there is a gap between what men and women earn overall. There is alot of evidence for this. Why this overall gap exists has several factors.
They said: "You're saying "OMFG HOW CAN PEOPLE BE SO IGNORANT AND DENY THE EXISTENCE OF THIS THING I BELIEVE IN," then you're also saying that the data used to support your argument is false?"
I did not say the data to support a 23 cent gap OVERALL was false. Rather that it does not support a gap of that size at the exact same job level. So when I said that I dont see how people can deny a pay gap exists at all, I meant that there is an overall gap, not one at the exact same job level.
So far as i can tell you are the one being stupid. But, if you disagree then how about trying to point out what I`ve said wrong rather than making vague insults.
All that? its like 15 lines. Now whos stupid.
This sounds like an excuse mate. You have yet to provide evidence of why I am so stupid. If youre so right, it should be easy shouldnt it?
My guess is you cant and you`ve realised that.
I really don`t care. Its reddit drama, Ill survive. Trolls are people and they are capable of giving real answers. I was just seeing if he would actually say what he really thought. Who knows.
I mean there are serious answers on this post. Its just funny that this guy trolls when hes wrong. Kind of convenient.
I dont really mind. There are serious replies here so it is possible. That guy was just wrong and hes making excuses. If Im wrong on that account and he is just reeaaalllly funny then he can reply seriously and make a decent point.
What I do find funny is the way he keeps replying to me like Im a woman. Im a guy.
u/caljl, please ignore these boorish men. The statistics back you up completely. From what I've seen, there is a 77% gap between the money men earn doing full time jobs and the money 1 out of every 5 women would have made if they weren't sexually harassed by the 23% of men who admit to being capable of committing rape if they were sure to get away with it. This leaves a 7% variance between those women who earn less but put out more as compared to men who earn more but are incels. Worst of all, there is a gap of 23% between the net income earned by tall fit men who are well endowed and short overweight women who wouldn't touch a manlet or Asian man if her life depended on it. Again, this applies to 1 out of every 4 women (38%) who experience a 30% chance of being sexual harassed while posting a #MeToo on twitter.
The gap is about 5%, though that doesn't account for differences in negotiating between men and women. Differences in overall earnings are mostly related to having children, women in their 20s make more than their male counterparts.
Yes I know. Notice how I did not say that the reason was purely discrimination at same job level or overall or really make reference to it at all. I do think there is role for societal influences in gender roles but I know it is not the only the influence by a long shot.
All I was saying was that there is a gap, regardless of cause (or causes), overall. Which you agree with. I was saying that to deny there is not a gap overall is stupid. What exactly is wrong with that?I think we`re in agreement.
Literally no one denies there is a gap, when people refer to the wage gap myth they are referring to people who speak of it as if it is for the same work, like Obama.
However, a study conducted in 2014 by the Education Policy Research Initiative at the University of Ottawa showed that at one Ontario university, male students who did the same course of study as females and graduated at the same time, earned an average of $10,000 more in their first year after graduation than their female cohorts. Thirteen years after graduation, that gap widened to $20,000.
In essence, it tells us that women are undervalued from the get-go.
This is clearly false, there is no evidence they are undervalued. It is telling that they don't mention which field of study it is. I know for a fact that the men in my graduating class made more than the women on average right out of the gate. The biggest reason was that women were less willing to live and work in rural areas where a lot of the high paying jobs were. They were also, generally, looking for more work-life balance and less willing to work overtime.
I also prefer to live in a city and I know i suffer financially for it but I suck it up and recognize the benefits of the choice i made.
Ultimately the issue around how people speak about the earnings gap is that they, feminist advocates, start from the perspective that women are oppressed and then search for evidence that their viewpoint is correct and ignore evidence against it.
Yeah all I was originally saying was that its ridiculous to deny the wage gap does exist. I have met people who say "the pay gap is no real". They may well be miswording what they meant though but some for sure thought it just does not exist at all. Did not really get into reasons but i would say its definitely multivariate.
I mean In Essence at no point in time will we ever fix "the wage gap" one sex will always make more than the other, you can't perfectly balance things of this magnitude. I would say plus or minus 10% is basically the best we will ever get.
You're insinuating I sounded stupid in a comment I wrote on the internet? Take that back you fucking white male guilt piece of shit fucking oppressor of women you are part of the problem you are the oppressor you need to resolve the world of the problem you are the problem fix this fix the world you are the problem haha I know what I'm talking about kid. Don't ever butt heads with me again or I shall destroy you arguments with REASON and LOGIC.
Im fairly certain you`re joking. .You never know with reddit though. If you are not then you may be a moron.
Even if you are joking I think youre riffing on beliefs you may think I hold but probably dont.
Are you saying the Uber study shows that the gap is 5-7% because there is no negotiation? I don't think that conclusion can be extended outside of Uber.
It does. It can be reasonably extended, but I'm curious why you don't think it can be. It's a job market that accounts for essentially every variable besides female choice (the argument thus shifts to that being downstream from gender/socialisation).
The gap is probably around 5-7 cents, with about 1 cent due to monopsony power/carry-over, market-wide. That's the only one I think is worth caring about, since the remainder is choice, which is biologically caused.
Also, freer trade reduces monopsony power, helping groups hurt by market power. The manner market power causes wage gaps can be totally innocuous and by no one's choice, though. It can simply result from women in aggregate having a difference that reduces their average wages. If a woman has a low salary, switches jobs and her prospective employer compares and offers her something based on the past wage she had, the gap can continue existing just because of that.
Yeah I do agree mostly. I do think it may be going a little too far to say that choices are all biology . Some of it will be societal. But then there is the whole question of how much this in turn is contingent on innate factors. It`s not an easy question. Everyone seems to have different takes. Most things are interactionalist so do not expect this to be greatly different.
Yeppo. Interestingly (see the ROSE data), more acquiescent countries have greater STEM gender equality and more gender equal countries are less equal (ie, the Nordic Paradox). The advent of choice also generated (a) higher success heritability and (b) greater gender gaps in post-Soviet countries. It seems allowing for personal sorting makes for gaps, and it makes them more strongly heritable with time and stability.
Yes that is interesting and I have quite few articles that discuss it. I may well provide support for biology but you must also question how absent societal gender roles are really in Nordic countries. They do not exist in a vacuum after all and change takes time. These influences could still impact personal sorting.
I do agree though, it is a fascinating dynamic.
Of course they impact it. If I have a law saying women can't work, then suddenly no women will work. The neat point is that gender equality leads to stereotypical sorting.
Yes, I know. What I was saying is that that stereotypical sorting could still have its origin in biology or lingering societal gender roles that influence choice or both to varying degrees.
I wonder if that effect can be accounted for in part by Western culture, since the cultures with the highest GGI scores are all Western. The correlation is also only moderately strong, and non-Western countries tend to fall below the line, while Western countries tend to fall above it (MENA countries seem to form their own cluster around or slightly above the line, Western Euro and anglosphere countries form a cluster solidly above the line, and LATAM countries form a cluster slightly below the line), suggesting that there are other influences at play that some are in fact cultural. Too lazy to read past the graphs tho.
That's still only one country, though, and from scanning the article, the only thing that the article says is that the proportion of women in things-oriented professions has remained stable while the proportion of women in high-status jobs has increased. That could be explained by a greater number of women entering the workforce who otherwise wouldn't (who likely wouldn't enter 'things-oriented jobs'). A lot of the 'things-oriented jobs' are also low-status, and/or women aren't encouraged to enter them, and/or there are barriers to women entering them, be they physical or otherwise. The article also mentioned that a number of previously male-dominated jobs aren't male-dominated anymore.
The same has occurred in many countries. The paradox was originally called the "Nordic Paradox" instead of the "Gender Equality Paradox."
Yeah, but most of those countries are Western European and anglo...not to mention that the phenomenon is measured on proportion, which again can be easily explained by the fact that more women have entered the workforce who wouldn't have otherwise and they don't want to work in STEM.
Yes, as they were proscribed from women, that makes clear sense.
They weren't as of the 70's. Women could be doctors and lawyers for decades prior to that.
They could be, but weren't, largely. Nonetheless, there is a largely linear gender equality correlation with unequal outcomes across the gamut of countries. Additionally, more gender unequal countries just tend to be shittier, but at least they have more similar male and female representation in STEM fields.
Nonetheless, there is a largely linear gender equality correlation with unequal outcomes across the gamut of countries.
Yeah, and all I'm saying is that culture could be a strong influence on this, particularly given that there was only a moderate correlation found and that different geographic areas tended to cluster together. The latter fact is pretty indicative that there are cultural elements at play.
What? Like really? Even if the gap in wage is based on men and women going into different fields due to biology then its far from meaningless. Pretty interesting really. Especially considering its were not sure how much interaction there is between biology and other causes.
That's a lie, we earn less when normalized by job. It's only touted as a stat cause there's less Asians in minimum wage roles, but when you control for same education/role it's not as rosy. You can blame selective immigration where we're basically only importing post grads.
Well it is white men's fault in one way; imagine how it would go for a a cabal of ugly angry old dykes in academia trying to push the same cult anywhere else in the world? The anger and panic that has developed in its proponents the last 3 years over it does point to these ideologues riding a sinking ship to a bitter end at least.
Also no one is really claiming that for the exact same job the pay disparity is at the full 30 percent but an awful lot of people drag out that old strawman feminist constantly.
An Obama campaign ad
Women (are) paid 77 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as men.
I love how they try to pretend that the narrative isn't that women are literally paid 23 cents less for the same work. That absolutely is how it is presented, because it would be an outrageous claim. If they said that women on average make 7% less, for unknown reasons, some of which are likely due to sexism, then they wouldn't have nearly as much support.
When their bullshit gets called out they just move the goal posts.
Pff nobody ever said women actually make only 23 cents on the dollar for the same job, same work, idiot. Are you stupid?
Yet I've seen that claim made on this very fucking site countless times, and across all other media outlets. Seen it on CNN, BBC, everywhere. Gaslighting at its finest, folks.
Jesus Christ, can the mods just start stickying a daily post where people can bitch about their problems with women under the guise of being mad about feminism or trollx? You are some dry dick mother fuckers. Then, god forbid some of these same issues blow up in your faces, like when judges give primary custody to the primary caretaker (hint the mother). Or when society treats you like a walking wallet for your kids because that's how you treat yourselves. I swear, I'm starting to understand Trump supporters. Because I'm about ready to let my pit hair grow out and head over to gender critical in response to getting annoyed by people on the internet.
Jesus Christ, can the mods just start stickying a daily post where people can bitch about their problems with women under the guise of being mad about feminism or trollx?
I hope you're not serious posting here, because there is drama in this post and what they're talking about is a non existent issue.
Also calling me a blumpf supporter is also a fine touch.
There's no fucking drama in the post. It's the 500th time a bunch of people got mad and talked past each other about the wage gap. I could care less if you support Trump. I'm saying listening to snowflakes get outraged about this stuff is about to radicalize me. And, don't think I'm only talking about the SJW snowflakes either. I used to be a radical centrist and proud of it. So, why don't you do something useful like post bussy?
This is why I will never get a job, even if I end up on the street I'll be a pauper, because I'm not going to play a game that I'll never win and that I would take as a measure of my worth as a person, from the starting assumption that that worth will turn out to be pretty low. I would rather sit on the sidewalk and sing cry tunes badly!
190 comments
1 SnapshillBot 2018-05-09
Neat.
Snapshots:
I am a bot. (Info / Contact)
1 boyoyoyoyong 2018-05-09
Why don't people believe the bullshit propaganda i do.....reeeeee
1 I_FART_OUT_MY_BUTT69 2018-05-09
oh propaganda, you mean like the one that systematically drives women away from choosing high-paying jobs?
1 boyoyoyoyong 2018-05-09
Exactly, it's got to be tough being told you can't do anything and being taught by a bunch of male teachers throughout your childhood years
1 gracchusBaby 2018-05-09
Which one is that, specifically?
1 NormanImmanuel 2018-05-09
There is literally no drama here.
1 Finna_seethe 2018-05-09
This is an agenda post. If you absolutely need drama then scroll to the bottom to see several downvoted posts.
1 Re_LE_Vant_UN 2018-05-09
Nah I saw some mansplaining in the comments.
1 casualrocket 2018-05-09
who was cuntfused?
1 SAC-Lawn_Gnome 2018-05-09
/u/ironicseal, funny I bet men have the same reaction to you!
1 atsteak 2018-05-09
u/TemporalLocality you mean when there's an influx of labor into a field the work becomes devalued. It's called economics 101.
1 TemporalLocality 2018-05-09
That’s obvious, my point is that more women in a field means the work is devalued especially so. And I used programming specifically as an example. Nice reading comprehension skills.
1 atsteak 2018-05-09
I'm sure you think that but it's not true. In fields like medicine where the total supply of labor is controlled (limited residency positions), women are now the majority of graduates but healthcare is more expensive than ever.
1 TemporalLocality 2018-05-09
Healthcare is not nurses pay
1 DaYooper 2018-05-09
It's almost like one requires a lot more training
1 TemporalLocality 2018-05-09
Yes that’s correct, but it doesn’t change the fact that the jobs are basically the same one can just write prescriptions.
1 DaYooper 2018-05-09
That's not even close to being true
1 GoblinThief 2018-05-09
Doctors need to spend atleast 7 years to become qualified, nurses need to spend a couple of weeks in community college to learn how to apply a thermometer and take someone's pressure. obiously one needs to be paid more than the other.
1 salami_inferno 2018-05-09
Being a doctor obviously requires more training and should be paid better but you don't honestly think becoming a nurse is that easy. Where I live it's at least 4 years, often 5, to become a nurse.
1 istural 2018-05-09
Very similar work?
My mother is a doctor, my so is a nurse. Their work is incredibly different and the amount and type of knowledge is totally different. Doctors are not physically giving shots. Dealing with IVs, cleaning bed pans, or doing the manual stuff. Doctors are there to diagnose the issue, analyze the problem, and recommend a correct treatment. Nurses are there to help facilitate that treatment.
Even Nurse practitioners have greatly different skill sets, APRN are great for clinical work and urgent care, or really any acute non-emergent situation, as well as some minor chronic issue, because they specialize in preventative medicine.
However, they still have less training then doctors, and do not have the same ability to prescribe meds which reflects that.
Even then, the that’s a singular speciality, a large amount of doctors specialize, and nurses are not able to do a specialists work with the training available. APRNs are not able to be an oncologist or pulmonary or cardiac. Your APRN is not going into surgery, and is also not working with you on your kidney failure.
LPNs, the non-practitioner kind, have an even larger difference, and definitely have no where near enough training to be a doctor, they can gain experience but there is a reason nurses and doctors do different jobs.
How can you say they are very similar?
1 Fat_Black_Chick 2018-05-09
Serioisly, did that retard just say doctors and nurses are the same fucking job? Wewlad!
1 istural 2018-05-09
They did, apparently nurses and doctors being paid differently is due to the “wage gap”
One of their comments was “they do the same thing, one just prescribes meds”
I suppose that’s what happens when they visit a doctor once a decade because they don’t like hearing how they need to be healthy.
1 Chicup 2018-05-09
Women doctors make less if you look at total but they also work a lot less hours.
Go figure.
1 DaYooper 2018-05-09
You know programming used to be more of a secretarial data entry job right?
1 TemporalLocality 2018-05-09
That’s how it was viewed.
1 Fletch71011 2018-05-09
You are not helping the stereotype that women aren't as smart or as capable as men.
1 MerlinsBeard 2018-05-09
This is also the underlying issue with H1B visas.
1 BasedRubby 2018-05-09
this is why laborfags need to be executed
1 Invalid_Target 2018-05-09
I hope you choke on pharmabros smuggled out jizz.
1 BasedRubby 2018-05-09
i bet you’re one of the tards that voted for the same human capital inflation that made everything you buy more expensive because you were too much of a moralfag brainlet to draw the logical conclusions of it
1 Invalid_Target 2018-05-09
you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
1 BasedRubby 2018-05-09
people
factors of production
rise in prices
you
1 UpvoteIfYouDare 2018-05-09
It's called a labor surplus, dumbass.
1 pizzashill 2018-05-09
The empirical data doesn't show a decline in wages from immigration, as far as I know.
http://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy
1 Tyler11223344 2018-05-09
H1B isn't immigration in general though, it involves specifically importing workers for a specific position that can't be filled at the asking price. That does have an effect on wages, although how big of a problem it actually is relative to other issues is personal opinion.
1 TrannyPornO 2018-05-09
Areas that had greater female participation had higher incomes and women did not suppress male wages (they didn't even enter the same fields, mostly).
1 LightUmbra 2018-05-09
Ur mom gay
1 Minimum_T-Giraff 2018-05-09
Just get a education you fucking red neck ."muh jerbs"
1 Invalid_Target 2018-05-09
my country, take your strenuously beige ass back to the 3rd world shithole you crawled out of, pajeet.
1 Minimum_T-Giraff 2018-05-09
Don't you find it amazing that american workers can be replaced by people that can't even do toilet. How much of loser do you have to be to lose to person that shit on the street.
1 Invalid_Target 2018-05-09
thanks for proving my point, ramesh.
1 shallowm 2018-05-09
Why do you hate the free market, commie?
1 I_EAT_ASS_AMA 2018-05-09
When you try so hard to be edgy and impress the kids on drama that you start insulting people purely because they do manual labor 😎
1 serial_crusher 2018-05-09
Gender balance is literally the only change the computer programming industry has undergone since the 1960s. It must be the reason for higher pay.
1 electroepiphany 2018-05-09
If you are trying to imply it's somehow harder to be a programmer now you are an abject moron.
1 serial_crusher 2018-05-09
"hard" isn't the only variable that affects salary.
"Computer programming" jobs of yore were mostly in public and academic sectors. There wasn't much money flowing around in private industry to invest in them. Modern software engineers are in pretty constant demand all over the private sector so hey guess what, that frees up a lot of money to drive salaries higher.
Also go read bweazel's excellent description of what "computer programming" jobs were like back in the early days. Many jobs in the industry back then were "hard" in the sense that they involved a lot of boring tedious work. It's nerve-wracking, which is why early computer science pioneers automated those jobs in a hurry--many of those early pioneers were women looking to escape that tedium. The fact is though, low-skill jobs that are "hard" ion that sense are historically low paid, because plenty of people qualified to do it.
1 woetotheconquered 2018-05-09
Why would you think that? Software is more complicated now than it has ever been.
1 serial_crusher 2018-05-09
Holy crap, u/bweazel's response to that is top notch. I'm glad it's being upvoted.
1 nmx179 2018-05-09
Yeah I would usually ping temporallocality to let them know the various ways their post failed but u/bweazel's rebuttal was so amazingly thorough there's really nothing left to say on the topic.
1 Finna_seethe 2018-05-09
/u/bweazel that answer was hot.
1 TimothyGonzalez 2018-05-09
A-are you saying women aren't special? Misogyny!
1 Selfawarenesshere 2018-05-09
From the opposite side of the fence, when meet, talk to, or hear about women like /u/ironicseal I'm glad as fuck for being 100% gay. Men are dicks but thats nothing compare to their bullshit.
1 JustStayYourself 2018-05-09
I've said this so many times in my life from experience, men can be assholes/dicks whatever but they're very upfront and blunt about it. You know exactly what you're dealing with most of the time.
If you have something going on with a woman, shit will sneak up on you slowly but surely from weird corners and behind your back. Before you know it you've been screwed in so many ways you wouldn't believe it.
I've seen it plenty of times with family/friends/internet and other places.
1 Selfawarenesshere 2018-05-09
Funny thing is, you say that you're "sexist", but any time women are in their own groups (been a fly on that wall often, due to being the only male in the space and being gay, i'm perceived as all but nonexistent), they will be the first to admit women are more devious and back stabbing and dare I say "Toxic" and a variety of ways nearly unique and certainly more standard for them.
And frankly /u/ironicseal comment is stupid on so many more levels, because of this, does she real "wish" she was part of the group that has a reportedly higher rate of domestic abuse then both heterosexual women and homosexual men? Like check your privilege and you're ignorance, that fertilization of homosexual relationships as if we suffer no issues is disgusting.
1 TransexualWiener 2018-05-09
probably because women are the smaller weaker gender physically, they naturally grow up instinctively finding ways to fuck people that don't involve just straight punching someone in the face.
1 MadMaxMercer 2018-05-09
Lol who could resist this?
1 voicelesshoodwinker 2018-05-09
Lol
1 Finna_seethe 2018-05-09
Does anyone have spare accounts with a bit of history? I want to do this, it's fun.
1 wwyzzerdd 2018-05-09
You could try forward thinking and make your own. But that won't give you instant gratification with zero effort so I dunno...
1 Finna_seethe 2018-05-09
Why would I want to put effort into trolling?
1 ShitCommentBelow 2018-05-09
So we don't have to.
1 ironicshitpostr 2018-05-09
well forget that then
1 Chicup 2018-05-09
Meh, lying on the internet is older than /r/drama.
1 Lostx22 2018-05-09
Lol someone says they don’t have the energy to argue with someone online. Like bitch all you have to do is type if you can not even do that I mean I wouldn’t be paying to bitch top dollar.
1 ffbtaw 2018-05-09
Hey now, typing is hard when morbidly obese, speaking without gasping for air too so voice to text apps don't help either.
1 archdukef4gg0tlives 2018-05-09
/u/ironicseal so just become a parrot for the beliefs of the man you're interested in like every other thot determined to get a good dicking instead of wallowing in self righteousness like you are now
1 OkaySeriouslyBro 2018-05-09
Literally nothing gets my cunt juicier than when me and my man agree on whatever talking points John Oliver is pushing.
1 WeWuzKANG5 2018-05-09
/r/television mod this man!
1 TSwizzlesNipples 2018-05-09
/u/pitchesandthrows:
U wot m8?
1 pitchesandthrows 2018-05-09
Yep someone is following me on reddit and replying to every comment I make.
1 TSwizzlesNipples 2018-05-09
Sounds like paranoia to me.
1 pitchesandthrows 2018-05-09
Not really paranoia when I can see them disproportionally replying to my comments.
1 TSwizzlesNipples 2018-05-09
Why are you following me around reddit and replying to my comments? This is harassment and I will report it to the admins. They take this kind of thing very seriously. 😡🤬
1 pitchesandthrows 2018-05-09
This is our conversation on one thread. Other person is entering multiple threads and uniquely replying to my comments then leaving. But whatevs.
1 TSwizzlesNipples 2018-05-09
Reported.
1 ltedt 2018-05-09
/u/pitchesandthrows BTFO
1 CirqueDuFuder 2018-05-09
1 pitchesandthrows 2018-05-09
Honored tbh
1 TSwizzlesNipples 2018-05-09
hey its me ur paranoia
1 mike_pants 2018-05-09
"Everyone downvoting me is out to get me" seems to be a theme in your comnebt history. Maybe you need to consider changing the message?
1 Subbs 2018-05-09
So what?
1 No_Administration 2018-05-09
I don't think you understand what "paranoia" means. Or is it just a word you like to throw out to make yourself feel mentally superior?
Dictionary: A mental condition characterized by delusions of...
Let me help you parse it out:
If you THINK someone is walking behind you and responding to every sentence you say, and there really is no one there, then thats paranoia.
If you HEAR and other people can SEE someone walking behind you and responding to every sentence you say, then thats reality.
1 TSwizzlesNipples 2018-05-09
You must be new here...
1 WeWuzKANG5 2018-05-09
OH NO!!!
1 ineedmorealts 2018-05-09
Who?
1 ahbslldud 2018-05-09
That's not against the rules fam. You're making public comments on a public website. People can reply to them.
1 SithisTheDreadFather 2018-05-09
mfw someone blames the "wage gap" on the patriarchy
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/what-can-uber-teach-us-about-the-gender-pay-gap/
LIST: That’s correct.
DUBNER: All right. So you were telling us that your prediction was that there’d be either zero or a positive pay gap for women. What kind of pay gap did you actually find if any, between male and female Uber drivers ?
LIST: We found something very surprising. What you find is that men make about 7 percent more per hour on average…For doing the exact same job in a setting where work assignments are made by a gender-blind algorithm and pay structure’s tied directly to output and not negotiated.
1 Fletch71011 2018-05-09
Facts are sexist you mysognist racist manchild.
1 I_FART_OUT_MY_BUTT69 2018-05-09
da fuck is this cringeanarchy shit-tier comment? guys i get that r/subredditdrama is a liberal echo chamber but this sub doesn't have to turn into an alt-right KKK supporters' haven in response
1 nybbas 2018-05-09
Yeah it does.
1 I_FART_OUT_MY_BUTT69 2018-05-09
nice n-word username you alt-right asshole
1 shallowm 2018-05-09
واضح أن البيض قد سيطروا على هالسُب مثلما اليهود قد سيطروا على العالم...اللهم اجعل كيدهم في نحورهم ونعوذ بك من شرورهم
1 Wordshark 2018-05-09
Hahaha holy shit
1 Finna_seethe 2018-05-09
English is a second language for me, so what they're saying in the last paragraph is that men earn 7 percent more per hour because men are more productive right?
1 Matthew94 2018-05-09
yes
1 Finna_seethe 2018-05-09
Cool. one more research that I can use to piss people off.
1 froibo 2018-05-09
That's what facts are for.
1 ryzyryz 2018-05-09
Yey science
1 banhminobanhyou 2018-05-09
Surprise, it's because women are lazy and fickle
1 saint2e 2018-05-09
No, sweatie, it's because they experience harassment which deters them from continuing in that field.
The fact that the harassment comes from themselves in this case is irrelevant, and if you bring that up, you're victim blaming.
1 MoonCricketJamFace 2018-05-09
I mean, there’s probably a lot of Nice Guys™ and male feminists taking Ubers, which would probably scare off the women drivers. Wouldn’t want to get raped, ya know.
1 Box_xx 2018-05-09
/u/temporalsreality are you sure the only reason programming is more valuable is that it moved to a male dominated field? Theres no other reason.
1 itsnotmyfault 2018-05-09
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/what-programmings-past-reveals-about-todays-gender-pay-gap/498797/ This article seems to be completely unaware in the vast difference in the ubiquity of computers now as compared to the 1950's.
If I'm putting this together correctly it's saying basically that hardware used to be the more masculine and prestigious and well paid part, and that software wages and prestiege rose with the percentage of men... but we shouldn't even THINK about how different programming is today compared to then. I don't even know how to explain how ridiculous this is.
/u/temporalsreality why don't you focus on the other, less ridiculous, examples in that article like how an 1800's anti-suffragist's idea that women should be educated in order to better serve and teach men (and do it for cheap too) is obviously the most critical factor in why teachers are paid so little.
As a side note, anyone have this in pdf: https://academic.oup.com/sf/article-abstract/88/2/865/2235342 I wanna see what other professions are either wildly different from 70 years ago in both scale and influence or consistently manages to fail to get enough local votes to get raises. I'm sure my mind will be blown by the insidious sexism of literally picking a different major for double the money.
1 Matthew94 2018-05-09
Still is. Software is for hardware rejects.
1 itsnotmyfault 2018-05-09
Never met any hardware guys. Are we talking about routing a PCB and picking which particular lego parts to solder on (which I have done once, poorly, for a simple project), or are we talking about the fucking wizards that get transistors to 10 nanometers?
There's also FPGA people that do... something that I don't understand but is apparently basically just writing software with hardware and a lot of it is done automatically with some weird program? There was also some kind of story I heard about how people make chips involving giving a computer a rough idea and then it chomps on it for a month and spits out something that's a goddamn indecipherable convoluted mess, but it works so nobody cares.
I'm a Mech E, so I never had to care. I just know that we have like 5 programmers, and don't need a specialized hardware guy. Just buy a COTS microcontroller and program it, or it runs on a regular computer.
1 Matthew94 2018-05-09
I mean RF wizardry at 28nm. PCB design is still complex at high frequencies when you don't even use lumped components (inductors, caps etc) and just use pieces of transmission line for everything.
1 saddertadder 2018-05-09
Show me on the circuit where the muxxer touched you, daddy.
T. took 2 computer engineering classes over half a decade ago
1 old_grumpy_grandpa 2018-05-09
FPGA is pretty cool stuff, you basically have hardware that you can modify.
Some big players do it seriously, but they have to write super complex testing and assertions and shit to ensure the result actually works as intended and can be reproduced consistently.
Then there's the hobbysts that just want to have fun, their results are interesting but they have little practical or even academical use.
1 RollBread 2018-05-09
There is a wage gap, it's even in the research journal people love to cite. It is a 7% difference, main reason being the jobs different genders seem to choose on their own.
1 JustStayYourself 2018-05-09
Every single time I see this subject come up I see people chime that the wage gap exists and then as soon as someone asks ''Yeah, sure but do you know why there's a gap?'' they stick their heads in the sand or cover their ears while screaming THERE'S A WAGE GAP THERE'S A WAGE GAP! Who cares about the actual reasons?
And the amount of times I've seen stuff like:
- You're just a troll
- Don't have energy
- rolls eyes
- ''Whatever, you wouldn't understand anyway''
in response to facts/studies is absolutely unbelievable, not once have I seen the people who support that there's a wage gap actually take the time and freaking LISTEN. Listening is 100% out of the question.
Fuck reasons, let's all scream in harmony loud enough that it drowns out any real logic.
1 Fiat-Libertas 2018-05-09
That's an earnings gap then, not a wage gap.
1 saint2e 2018-05-09
Well, let's take a look at how many hours people work:
https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/time-spent-working-by-full-and-part-time-status-gender-and-location-in-2014.htm
Huh. Men work, on average, about 45-60 minutes more a day, or roughly 10-15% more than women.
Really, men are getting the short end of the stick here, they should be outearning women 7-10% more.
1 nomad1c 2018-05-09
translation: he stopped replying to my messages
1 saddertadder 2018-05-09
> kind of
> of
absolute state of American education.
its KIND'VE SHORT FOR KIND HAVE
1 nomad1c 2018-05-09
shouting isn't kind sir
1 wow___justwow 2018-05-09
YOU HAVE A FUCKING SWASTIKA FLAIR
1 nomad1c 2018-05-09
it's a SWASTIKA OF PEACE
1 DayAcanthaceae 2018-05-09
Are you memeing or do you actually believe this?
1 MoonCricketJamFace 2018-05-09
That doesn’t make any sense. Your retarded.
1 saddertadder 2018-05-09
TRIGGEREDDDDDDDDDD. good b8
1 MoonCricketJamFace 2018-05-09
They’re’s no need to be testy mate.
1 Gil-Gandel 2018-05-09
No, for once it's the exact other way around. You must be some kind of special not to realize this.
1 Re_LE_Vant_UN 2018-05-09
I mean, have you ever worked with women in an office environment? Most of them should be grateful they even get paid half of what men are getting paid.
That said, I've worked with women that were extremely talented and driven and deservedly make more money than me, but they are definitely the exception rather than the rule.
1 Dropperneck 2018-05-09
u/ironicseal
You need to look for men in coffee shops, book stores, Claire’s, etc where you can find a soy boy that is willing to deny reality for sub par feminist sex. Sage
1 TayTaysMayoGussy 2018-05-09
You sound like a little girl who isn't getting her way, /u/caljl
You're saying "OMFG HOW CAN PEOPLE BE SO IGNORANT AND DENY THE EXISTENCE OF THIS THING I BELIEVE IN," then you're also saying that the data used to support your argument is false?
The wage gap doesn't hold up to scrutiny. If companies were actually paying employees differing salaries for the EXACT SAME JOB, we'd be hearing about new lawsuits every single day. But we don't, because they don't.
If you wanna make more money, start roofing houses. Or start selling gussy. You know women out-earn men in porn by like a LOT, right?
1 caljl 2018-05-09
I
m not sure what you thought I was saying. My point was that there is an overall disparity in men and womens pay. Not in the same job, not at the same level. Although I do personally believe there to be some level of wage disparity in some same job cases. But I do not think discrimination is the only reason for this. The data to support an overall wage gap is quite extensive. I know there isn`t a great deal of viable evidence to put the gap for the exact same job at anywhere near 30 percent. That was my point. I did not think many people really claimed that there was such an extensive gap for the same job. I maybe wrong but I think the number is definitely inflated by opponents to any notion of wage disparity between genders. To reiterate: I did not say that the gap was at 30 percent for the same job. I said it was not. I do think there is some form of a gap but not at exact same job level. Or atleast not one that comes close to 30 percent. I do believe however that there is a larger gap OVERALL.1 UniversityDaniel 2018-05-09
Thanks for clarifying exactly how stupid you are
1 caljl 2018-05-09
What exactly do you think I have misunderstood. I think the person who quoted me has however made a large error in understanding. I said this: "Also no one is really claiming that for the exact same job the pay disparity is at the full 30 percent but an awful lot of people drag out that old strawman feminist constantly"
Meaning that I did not think many people actually believe there to be a gap of 30 percent at the same job at the same level. This size gap (and its about 23 not 30 actually, I was being general) is overall. I said that there is a gap between what men and women earn overall. There is alot of evidence for this. Why this overall gap exists has several factors.
They said: "You're saying "OMFG HOW CAN PEOPLE BE SO IGNORANT AND DENY THE EXISTENCE OF THIS THING I BELIEVE IN," then you're also saying that the data used to support your argument is false?" I did not say the data to support a 23 cent gap OVERALL was false. Rather that it does not support a gap of that size at the exact same job level. So when I said that I dont see how people can deny a pay gap exists at all, I meant that there is an overall gap, not one at the exact same job level.
So far as i can tell you are the one being stupid. But, if you disagree then how about trying to point out what I`ve said wrong rather than making vague insults.
1 UniversityDaniel 2018-05-09
Honey, if you think that I'm gonna read all that, you're wronger than you already were.
1 caljl 2018-05-09
All that? its like 15 lines. Now who
s stupid. This sounds like an excuse mate. You have yet to provide evidence of why I am so stupid. If youre so right, it should be easy shouldnt it? My guess is you cant and you`ve realised that.1 UniversityDaniel 2018-05-09
Fuck you, you can't make me realize anything!
1 caljl 2018-05-09
Again that is not really addressing what I have said wrong. Getting a bit angry arent we?
1 UniversityDaniel 2018-05-09
I'm so angry I've already soiled my XXXXL adult diaper twice!
1 caljl 2018-05-09
yeah thats funny but its still not addressing why I am so wrong. Try again.
1 UniversityDaniel 2018-05-09
You win. I submit. Women are strong, resilient, beautiful, and powerful. How could I ever compete?
I'll take my disciplinary spanking now, mommy.
1 caljl 2018-05-09
What are you on about? I`m not saying any of that. Are you not capable of normal answers? You are still not telling me why I am so so wrong.
1 significantsignature 2018-05-09
Stop withholding and spank this man! Do it for womyn everywhere!
1 caljl 2018-05-09
I just find it quite hilarious that he was willing to call me stupid but cant back it up. What`s the word, Irony?
1 Invalid_Target 2018-05-09
#SeriousPost!
1 Invalid_Target 2018-05-09
YOU'RE ACTIVELY TRYING TO HAVE A SEROUS CONVERSATION WITH A FUCKING TROLL.
you aren't making yourself look any better, you're just making it to where we all tag you our new lolcow of the month.
you should know better.
1 caljl 2018-05-09
I really don`t care. Its reddit drama, Ill survive. Trolls are people and they are capable of giving real answers. I was just seeing if he would actually say what he really thought. Who knows. I mean there are serious answers on this post. Its just funny that this guy trolls when hes wrong. Kind of convenient.
1 I_EAT_ASS_AMA 2018-05-09
Lmao
1 saddertadder 2018-05-09
You know youre in /r/drama and being milked like a lolcow that you are, right?
1 caljl 2018-05-09
I don
t really mind. There are serious replies here so it is possible. That guy was just wrong and hes making excuses. If Im wrong on that account and he is just reeaaalllly funny then he can reply seriously and make a decent point. What I do find funny is the way he keeps replying to me like Im a woman. Im a guy.1 saddertadder 2018-05-09
serious posting and agenda posting on /r/drama need to go! 😞😞😞
1 caljl 2018-05-09
Yeah but I`m not exactly the first person to do it. In this post even.
1 imnotagayboy 2018-05-09
And you're letting them know this because... ?
1 the-chinese 2018-05-09
u/caljl, please ignore these boorish men. The statistics back you up completely. From what I've seen, there is a 77% gap between the money men earn doing full time jobs and the money 1 out of every 5 women would have made if they weren't sexually harassed by the 23% of men who admit to being capable of committing rape if they were sure to get away with it. This leaves a 7% variance between those women who earn less but put out more as compared to men who earn more but are incels. Worst of all, there is a gap of 23% between the net income earned by tall fit men who are well endowed and short overweight women who wouldn't touch a manlet or Asian man if her life depended on it. Again, this applies to 1 out of every 4 women (38%) who experience a 30% chance of being sexual harassed while posting a #MeToo on twitter.
1 ffbtaw 2018-05-09
The gap is about 5%, though that doesn't account for differences in negotiating between men and women. Differences in overall earnings are mostly related to having children, women in their 20s make more than their male counterparts.
1 caljl 2018-05-09
Yes I know. Notice how I did not say that the reason was purely discrimination at same job level or overall or really make reference to it at all. I do think there is role for societal influences in gender roles but I know it is not the only the influence by a long shot.
All I was saying was that there is a gap, regardless of cause (or causes), overall. Which you agree with. I was saying that to deny there is not a gap overall is stupid. What exactly is wrong with that?I think we`re in agreement.
1 ffbtaw 2018-05-09
Literally no one denies there is a gap, when people refer to the wage gap myth they are referring to people who speak of it as if it is for the same work, like Obama.
For instance this article.
This is clearly false, there is no evidence they are undervalued. It is telling that they don't mention which field of study it is. I know for a fact that the men in my graduating class made more than the women on average right out of the gate. The biggest reason was that women were less willing to live and work in rural areas where a lot of the high paying jobs were. They were also, generally, looking for more work-life balance and less willing to work overtime.
I also prefer to live in a city and I know i suffer financially for it but I suck it up and recognize the benefits of the choice i made.
Ultimately the issue around how people speak about the earnings gap is that they, feminist advocates, start from the perspective that women are oppressed and then search for evidence that their viewpoint is correct and ignore evidence against it.
1 caljl 2018-05-09
Yeah all I was originally saying was that its ridiculous to deny the wage gap does exist. I have met people who say "the pay gap is no real". They may well be miswording what they meant though but some for sure thought it just does not exist at all. Did not really get into reasons but i would say its definitely multivariate.
1 swislock 2018-05-09
I mean In Essence at no point in time will we ever fix "the wage gap" one sex will always make more than the other, you can't perfectly balance things of this magnitude. I would say plus or minus 10% is basically the best we will ever get.
1 imnotagayboy 2018-05-09
The wage gap is a social construct, checkmate dumbass female
1 caljl 2018-05-09
I am a guy. I know youre joking but i hope you realise that sounds a bit stupid.
1 imnotagayboy 2018-05-09
You're insinuating I sounded stupid in a comment I wrote on the internet? Take that back you fucking white male guilt piece of shit fucking oppressor of women you are part of the problem you are the oppressor you need to resolve the world of the problem you are the problem fix this fix the world you are the problem haha I know what I'm talking about kid. Don't ever butt heads with me again or I shall destroy you arguments with REASON and LOGIC.
1 caljl 2018-05-09
Probably could have used a few more commas there.
Im fairly certain you`re joking. .You never know with reddit though. If you are not then you may be a moron. Even if you are joking I think youre riffing on beliefs you may think I hold but probably dont.
1 TrannyPornO 2018-05-09
The 5-7% gap does account for negotiating, per the Uber study.
1 ffbtaw 2018-05-09
Are you saying the Uber study shows that the gap is 5-7% because there is no negotiation? I don't think that conclusion can be extended outside of Uber.
1 TrannyPornO 2018-05-09
It does. It can be reasonably extended, but I'm curious why you don't think it can be. It's a job market that accounts for essentially every variable besides female choice (the argument thus shifts to that being downstream from gender/socialisation).
1 snallygaster 2018-05-09
Uber drivers negotiate pay?
1 TrannyPornO 2018-05-09
No, the point is that they do not.
1 snallygaster 2018-05-09
This:
and your previous post made it sound like you were making that suggestion.
1 imnotagayboy 2018-05-09
Do you know how taxis work you fucking retard? Do you think drivers haggle with their fares what their pay should be?
1 TrannyPornO 2018-05-09
The point is that they do not negotiate.
1 Fat_Black_Chick 2018-05-09
Also, many studies show that the average man works 45 hours a week, whereas the average woman works 40. Wouldn't that account for the difference?
1 TrannyPornO 2018-05-09
Here's the study. Yes, women chose to work less, for whatever reason.
1 TrannyPornO 2018-05-09
The gap is probably around 5-7 cents, with about 1 cent due to monopsony power/carry-over, market-wide. That's the only one I think is worth caring about, since the remainder is choice, which is biologically caused.
Also, freer trade reduces monopsony power, helping groups hurt by market power. The manner market power causes wage gaps can be totally innocuous and by no one's choice, though. It can simply result from women in aggregate having a difference that reduces their average wages. If a woman has a low salary, switches jobs and her prospective employer compares and offers her something based on the past wage she had, the gap can continue existing just because of that.
1 caljl 2018-05-09
Yeah I do agree mostly. I do think it may be going a little too far to say that choices are all biology . Some of it will be societal. But then there is the whole question of how much this in turn is contingent on innate factors. It`s not an easy question. Everyone seems to have different takes. Most things are interactionalist so do not expect this to be greatly different.
1 TrannyPornO 2018-05-09
Yeppo. Interestingly (see the ROSE data), more acquiescent countries have greater STEM gender equality and more gender equal countries are less equal (ie, the Nordic Paradox). The advent of choice also generated (a) higher success heritability and (b) greater gender gaps in post-Soviet countries. It seems allowing for personal sorting makes for gaps, and it makes them more strongly heritable with time and stability.
1 caljl 2018-05-09
Yes that is interesting and I have quite few articles that discuss it. I may well provide support for biology but you must also question how absent societal gender roles are really in Nordic countries. They do not exist in a vacuum after all and change takes time. These influences could still impact personal sorting. I do agree though, it is a fascinating dynamic.
1 TrannyPornO 2018-05-09
Of course they impact it. If I have a law saying women can't work, then suddenly no women will work. The neat point is that gender equality leads to stereotypical sorting.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0956797617741719
1 caljl 2018-05-09
Yes, I know. What I was saying is that that stereotypical sorting could still have its origin in biology or lingering societal gender roles that influence choice or both to varying degrees.
1 snallygaster 2018-05-09
I wonder if that effect can be accounted for in part by Western culture, since the cultures with the highest GGI scores are all Western. The correlation is also only moderately strong, and non-Western countries tend to fall below the line, while Western countries tend to fall above it (MENA countries seem to form their own cluster around or slightly above the line, Western Euro and anglosphere countries form a cluster solidly above the line, and LATAM countries form a cluster slightly below the line), suggesting that there are other influences at play that some are in fact cultural. Too lazy to read past the graphs tho.
1 TrannyPornO 2018-05-09
Maybe this is a hint: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0095960
Women have sorted increasingly stereotypically with time.
1 snallygaster 2018-05-09
That's still only one country, though, and from scanning the article, the only thing that the article says is that the proportion of women in things-oriented professions has remained stable while the proportion of women in high-status jobs has increased. That could be explained by a greater number of women entering the workforce who otherwise wouldn't (who likely wouldn't enter 'things-oriented jobs'). A lot of the 'things-oriented jobs' are also low-status, and/or women aren't encouraged to enter them, and/or there are barriers to women entering them, be they physical or otherwise. The article also mentioned that a number of previously male-dominated jobs aren't male-dominated anymore.
1 TrannyPornO 2018-05-09
The same has occurred in many countries. The paradox was originally called the "Nordic Paradox" instead of the "Gender Equality Paradox."
Yes, as they were proscribed from woman, that makes clear sense.
1 snallygaster 2018-05-09
Yeah, but most of those countries are Western European and anglo...not to mention that the phenomenon is measured on proportion, which again can be easily explained by the fact that more women have entered the workforce who wouldn't have otherwise and they don't want to work in STEM.
They weren't as of the 70's. Women could be doctors and lawyers for decades prior to that.
1 TrannyPornO 2018-05-09
They could be, but weren't, largely. Nonetheless, there is a largely linear gender equality correlation with unequal outcomes across the gamut of countries. Additionally, more gender unequal countries just tend to be shittier, but at least they have more similar male and female representation in STEM fields.
1 snallygaster 2018-05-09
Yeah, and all I'm saying is that culture could be a strong influence on this, particularly given that there was only a moderate correlation found and that different geographic areas tended to cluster together. The latter fact is pretty indicative that there are cultural elements at play.
1 soylent_absinthe 2018-05-09
Then your point is meaningless. It's like saying there's a disparity in sand quantity between Kansas and Saudi Arabia.
1 caljl 2018-05-09
What? Like really? Even if the gap in wage is based on men and women going into different fields due to biology then its far from meaningless. Pretty interesting really. Especially considering its were not sure how much interaction there is between biology and other causes.
1 TayTaysMayoGussy 2018-05-09
There's a huge wage gap between Asians and whites with Asians earning much higher on average.
Should we do something to even it out so that Asians don't outpace whites?
1 Draxx01 2018-05-09
That's a lie, we earn less when normalized by job. It's only touted as a stat cause there's less Asians in minimum wage roles, but when you control for same education/role it's not as rosy. You can blame selective immigration where we're basically only importing post grads.
1 caljl 2018-05-09
I think you would have to look at the reasons why that is happening. They are likely not all the same. That is kind of a false equivalency.
1 MarlaMaplesIsMyWaifu 2018-05-09
1 WeWuzKANG5 2018-05-09
The wage gap is as real as Larry King's organs.
1 OnlyRacistOnReddit 2018-05-09
1 pdxincel 2018-05-09
i wish i was gay.
1 Demon_Misstress 2018-05-09
You're gay, Harry.
1 Ironyno 2018-05-09
Well it is white men's fault in one way; imagine how it would go for a a cabal of ugly angry old dykes in academia trying to push the same cult anywhere else in the world? The anger and panic that has developed in its proponents the last 3 years over it does point to these ideologues riding a sinking ship to a bitter end at least.
1 drunk_texan 2018-05-09
Yes, because those evil capitalist pigs happily pay more for the same work just to keep women down.
1 Richard_Smellington 2018-05-09
I mean, there are probably the same marxist fucks that campaign for communism, so you already know that economics isn't exactly their strong suit.
1 nybbas 2018-05-09
People in that thread
An Obama campaign ad
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-ad-says-women-are-paid-77-cents-dolla/
I love how they try to pretend that the narrative isn't that women are literally paid 23 cents less for the same work. That absolutely is how it is presented, because it would be an outrageous claim. If they said that women on average make 7% less, for unknown reasons, some of which are likely due to sexism, then they wouldn't have nearly as much support.
1 Mildad 2018-05-09
When their bullshit gets called out they just move the goal posts.
Yet I've seen that claim made on this very fucking site countless times, and across all other media outlets. Seen it on CNN, BBC, everywhere. Gaslighting at its finest, folks.
1 ineedmorealts 2018-05-09
u/Quixadashani
It's denied because it's nonsense. Every study that controls for age, education level and job level proves this
No that's what you lot do.
And neither do stupid women.
u/pitchesandthrows
So pretty much nothing then? Theres a million explanations for a 5% pay gap besides "muh soggy knee".
Oh that readily disproved bullshit. The study that number came from didn't control for fuck all.
Lol
That's on you.
Could it be for any reason but sexism? Could it be that men tend to work longer hours? No the world must be against you
It's total shit and can be easy explained away by the fact men tend to work longer hours at more dangerous position than women?
u/TemporalLocality
Because historically when there's been an influx of women the job has become low skill.
No. The women who worked in "programming" back then just did secretary work
Because it was low skill work.
1 ssclanker 2018-05-09
You can tell a lot about that sub from looking at the removed comments.
1 parameciidae 2018-05-09
Jesus Christ, can the mods just start stickying a daily post where people can bitch about their problems with women under the guise of being mad about feminism or trollx? You are some dry dick mother fuckers. Then, god forbid some of these same issues blow up in your faces, like when judges give primary custody to the primary caretaker (hint the mother). Or when society treats you like a walking wallet for your kids because that's how you treat yourselves. I swear, I'm starting to understand Trump supporters. Because I'm about ready to let my pit hair grow out and head over to gender critical in response to getting annoyed by people on the internet.
1 Finna_seethe 2018-05-09
I hope you're not serious posting here, because there is drama in this post and what they're talking about is a non existent issue.
Also calling me a blumpf supporter is also a fine touch.
1 parameciidae 2018-05-09
There's no fucking drama in the post. It's the 500th time a bunch of people got mad and talked past each other about the wage gap. I could care less if you support Trump. I'm saying listening to snowflakes get outraged about this stuff is about to radicalize me. And, don't think I'm only talking about the SJW snowflakes either. I used to be a radical centrist and proud of it. So, why don't you do something useful like post bussy?
1 KingWayneX 2018-05-09
Well yeah. The internet is having that effect on almost everyone.
1 KingWayneX 2018-05-09
You may be surprised at how soggy chauvinism makes a college girl's panties.
1 wow___justwow 2018-05-09
Shout out to /u/bweazel for laying down some hard facts, holy shit that was an epic post.
1 saddertadder 2018-05-09
how come I gotta pay more as a man for car insurance while girls I know who are even younger than I pay less??? 🤔 🤔 🤔
1 xxxrivenmainxxx 2018-05-09
meanwhile chad can litteraly be a hitler fanboy and have hakenkreuze all over his walls but its ok because people have different oppinions, tehehe
1 PowerOfJerkoffMagic 2018-05-09
This is why I will never get a job, even if I end up on the street I'll be a pauper, because I'm not going to play a game that I'll never win and that I would take as a measure of my worth as a person, from the starting assumption that that worth will turn out to be pretty low. I would rather sit on the sidewalk and sing cry tunes badly!
1 MadMaxMercer 2018-05-09
HOW HAS NO ONE COMMENTED ON THE TROLLX OP'S GROSS GW POST?
1 razzmataz 2018-05-09
Is that Tony Stark?