I heard that the EU doesnt even force immigration, most of britains stuff is apparently entirely voluntary and both parties just let them stay like that for various reasons.
yeah but a whole bunch of the drama is about non EU african & MIddle Eastern migrants IIRC only idiots bitch about polish coming over and working for low wage and better ethics than the locals.
If you live in the UK, that's not true. British working class and working class regions do not enjoy eastern Europeans flooding a community and diluting their culture. There's been a wave of xenophobic attacks towards them.
You make it sound like it's a minority when half the country voted leave on the basis of too many migrants from Eastern Europe working in low wages and seeing demographic changes in Cities/village.
They wouldn't have voted leave if majority of EU migrants were from western Europe.
'Force' immigration makes me think there's some misconception here. Within the EU there is freedom of movement with the so-called Schengen area. This means if I want to go to Berlin to live and work there I can, as long as I can find a job, and equally Germans can come to my country to do the same. This is the immigration that Leave campaigners are unhappy about, and while you're a part of the EU you don't have any control over it, it's free movement.
However, the entire argument is bullshit. The number of immigrants coming to Britain from outside the EU is equal to number from within, and we have full control over that immigration already, the EU has no say over it. We're talking about getting more control over immigration when we're already choosing not to use the control we already have.
Sargon is one of those dudes who has ruined the label "classical liberal" for me.
I thought that just meant: a fairly centrist liberal who doesn't buy into the more convoluted identity politics stuff.
But from what I've seen from him he does have a tendency to shill for the far-right pretty much on every talking point imaginable. Not literally being alt right doesn't exactly make you into a centrist brah. And before the far righters and hardcore Brexiteers spring out of the woodworks: y'all are entitled to your opinion, but don't try to sell your beliefs like some enlightened centrist galaxybrain "classical liberal" like a pussy.
But thanks to losers like him at least I've stopped giving (((J00tube))) retarded talking heads my views, so that's that.
You were wrong, classical liberal is a philosophy not a position.
Classical liberalism is a political ideology and a branch of liberalism which advocates civil liberties under the rule of law with an emphasis on economic freedom.
Granted. But in <CurrentYear>, literally no one cares anymore about how terms are originally used in political philosophy, but more about the virtue signalling potential of said term in relation to the targeted audience.
For example, Kermit Memerson (another enlightened Classical Liberal) has concocted a strange philosophical brew that still ends up mostly resembling good ole "family values" Christian conservatism the most, if anything.
But it's an "ironic" Christianity, where the adventures of Jesus are basically turned into capeshit to teach the young Buckos about the virtues of room cleaning and the importance of finding a decent m'lady whose pair bonding hasn't been ruined yet by all that filthy casual sex.
For a guy who hates postmodernism, he sure takes a postmodernist approach.
Having said that, the rebellious component of giving the finger to the overly PC SJWs and their "xhir" insanity must have been a huge component in his meteoric rise.
I think that if the guy just had straight up shilled Christian conservatism from the start, he would never have made it this big. Many (sub)urban Millennials who grew up in the Bush era break out in hives at the mere word "conservatism" (which is pretty stupid if you think about it, but what gives). So if you want to use something that sounds vaguely progressive yet not overly concerned with "stupid" shit like tranny pronouns, then classical liberalism sounds pretty snazzy.
> rally no one cares anymore about how terms are originally used in political philosophy, but more about the virtue signalling potential of said term in relation to the targeted audience.
Exactly, like people saying "Republicans done were the ones who free dem slaves.."
The Democrats are weird. They started out as the hardcore racist party. Then somewhere around the 60s and the Kennedies n sheit, they became the most based non-racists. Then somewhere in the 2010s they became the hardcore "reverse" racist party.
This might have been exaggerated for comedic effect
Its really pretty simple, poor uneducated people are racist as fuck, america is weird in that it manages to trick poor people white people into voting to slash their own benefits and subsidies by framing it so that they are totally going to go after the undeserving (blacks) this doesnt mean that the other poor arent also hilariously racist they just vote for their own interests.
i can't find a single leftist on reddit that thinks Amazon is a legit cyperpunk evil megacorp. sadly only people on the right i guess care about forcing corporations to treat humans slightly more like humans
Democrats were never about equality. whether its the 1910s or the 2010s they want one race to not be allowed in colleges, to be treated as 2nd class citizens to have special laws only for them.
Republicans did free the slaves. That is an indisputable fact.
Well, if you manage to pull off such an impressive feat as a political party, I can get why they've been able to coast on this since the 19th century and still get in power regularly.
if you just go based on presidencies. republicans won all but one presidential election from 1965-1991, and that one was a fluke because Ford was supposed to quit and let reagan be the nominee in 1976. and kennedy and lbj rigged the 1960 election and 1964 was pretty fucked up too. really the thing that destroyed republicans the most is FDR and 3rd parties.
Clinton "radical centrism" 3rd way neoliberalism destroyed republicans more than anything. from 1988 to 1968 republicans won a majority of the popular vote 5 out of 6 elections. from 1992 to 2016 republicans only 1 out of 7 times.
Granted. But in <CurrentYear>, literally no one cares anymore about how terms are originally used in political philosophy,
This is why we see some elments of the anti-enlightenment ("dark enlightenment" is their new label for the old wine bottle) "alt blight" trying to appropriate the Jacobins as somehow being their forerunners, when they're actually closer to the reactionary supporters of the ancien regime
Oh God, I had almost forgotten about the Dark Enlightenment. The political movement that sounds like it was named by a 15-year old Crusader Kings player typing his manifesto for an absolute theocratic monarchy in Google Docs with the Cheeto-dusted fingers of his right hand while furiously masturbating with his left, aroused at his own cleverness.
Someone who has the stomach and free time for these things has to go to /r/DarkEnlightenment and /r/DebateFascism to unearth some of the more arcane drama. Your regular vanilla Alt-Right Kekistan Supremacy vs. Intersexanal Chapotraps Feminazi drama has gotten boring and stale.
XIX century capitalism had many excesses (enviromental issues, abuse of labor, children specifically, it couldn't handle the transition from agriculture to industry so well so it even had increases in poverty for a time) and that culminated with the Great Depression, which caught free marketers by surprise (not surprising, the theories to prevent the whole thing came later). Those failures made classical liberalism unattractive and gave a lot of space to collectivist mindsets like fascism and communism.
Many classical liberals tried to reform capitalism (see Mont Pelerin Society), like Friedman and Hayek. There was a little more tolerance for the state side and new ideas like monetarism, even if it remained hardline.
On the political side, while many embraced socialism, you had heterodoxes like Roosevelt that tried to fix rather than replace capitalism, even if very heavyhandendly (again, no one understood what the fuck was going on too well at the time).
That bring us to present day, where this new liberalism (neoliberalism) kind of converged with social democracy in many developed countries. So you have borderline leftists that are called liberal, and then economic liberals that have embraced some degree of regulation and welfare (specially in Europe). Then there is everything in between.
The guys self identifying as classical liberal this days are cringy because they imitate a failed ideology or because they are not really classical liberals, they just want to have the standards of race, sex and culture of the XIX century without any love for actual liberty, while pointing flawed people of the time and using them as deities.
God, what a seriouspost. I'll compensate. Bussy LMAO, Mayocide, Keep yourself safe, etc.
The guys self identifying as classical liberal this days are cringy because they imitate a failed ideology or because they are not really classical liberals, they just want to have the standards of race, sex and culture of the XIX century without any love for actual liberty, while pointing flawed people of the time and using them as deities.
I'd call myself a classical liberal and I'm socially liberal even by current year standards, and no cult of personality attached.
Social conservatives don't like that because of the liberal social beliefs.
Leftists don't like it because of the lack of government control of economy.
Its basically libertarianism.
And yes followers tend to be cringey, because its easy to pick out the ones wanting to be there based on some fucked up personal issues. Drugs, sex, just the desire to be fucking weird, conspiracy theories etc. And those aren't even the left libertarians which are cringe on top of stupid.
Most classical liberals these days are your large % of republican voters, who may or may not go to Church but really doesn't give a crap, holds their nose at some of the social conservative stuff but can't stand the leftist stuff.
Thats why I say I'm a libertarian small l not Libertarian insane L.
I woudln't call classical liberalism a failed ideology, just one where people thought they could do better and instead created the worst systems in human history.
I'd call myself a classical liberal and I'm socially liberal even by current year standards, and no cult of personality attached.
It's a generalization. Not everyone that identifies that way is cringy, just most of them.
Its basically libertarianism.
I woudln't call classical liberalism a failed ideology, just one where people thought they could do better and instead created the worst systems in human history.
It was a mixed system more than a failed one, the true fall came because of the Great Depression, that was mostly about monetary issues, not free markets per se. I feel libertarians, specially in the US, are too similar to the free marketers of the XIX century, they haven't learned history properly (specially when trying to mess with the environment, banks and the gold standard). If I want better run countries I'd look to Europe which are more pragmatic and moderate.
I actually have some sympathies for the ideology, I just think it's too dogmatic for its own good and its abandonment was a good thing.
If I want better run countries I'd look to Europe which are more pragmatic and moderate.
I'd say thats not working out so well these days. It also depends on what you value most in life. I value my personal freedom more than the most efficient way to run a country as a thing.
Efficient governments can quickly become authoritarian governments. We don't have the facebook police here like they do there for example, and while I'm libertarian, I realize that some regulation is needed in the economy. For some reason while you can be a moderate conservative or liberal, libertarians are always painted as hard line only.
I'd say thats not working out so well these days. It also depends on what you value most in life. I value my personal freedom more than the most efficient way to run a country as a thing.
I use the freedom index and the HDI index mostly. The US is not at the top of any of those (although it's not as bad as many say). Europe has objectively freer countries than the US.
Europe has objectively freer countries than the US.
You can set the variables to whatever you want, I have close to absolute freedom of speech, the right to bare arms, the right to defend myself (most states), and all those other things in the bill of rights.
You can set the variables to whatever you want, I have close to absolute freedom of speech, the right to bare arms, the right to defend myself (most states), and all those other things in the bill of rights.
The only thing not included is weapons. And the disrespect the US have for freedom of movement is bad enough that outweights the fact that they let nazis speak and people use weapons. People weight different types of liberty differently, so that makes the comparison somewhat harder.
I use the Freedom Index together with the HDI to try to estimate what's the best society (as I wrote above). Freedom is a necessary but not sufficient condition to have a good country (although they are fairly correlated). You'll observe that liberal economies with some degree of social protections are at the top at both.
You can only have open borders where the state doesn't provide benefits. So based on the current system its too free.
The consistent answer is that the system is too generous to be free (which is an interesting hypothesis but not necessarily true, as always we'll have to test it), not that it's too free, but oh well. Different priorities about liberty.
As a US citizen what freedom of movement don't I have? NK and Cuba? Oh our freedom of movement is listed as 10-10, so not sure what you are on about?
The keyword there is "as a US citizen". If you are from outside it's not really free.
Freedom of personal speech isn't even listed that I can see.
Freedom of expression, which is listed. CATO is a libertarian think tank.
And there are several you could take issue with such as the UK having a 10-10 on the internet now that you need porn licenses.
Which is the reason it's not at the top.
Its been tested right now, so far not looking good.
I have mixed feelings about it. Thing is, implementation matters, so I'm not accepting it as true for now. Restricting welfare to new entrants for a few years could do the trick, for example.
Not my concern being I'm a "its my country, you have yours, your rules are yours". I think you are being a bit pend antic here as if I lived outside the EU I'd not just be able to walk into a EU country. I still have to show my papers to get into Canada and it was the Canadians looking. Same with Mexico.
Freedom of expression, which is listed. CATO is a libertarian think tank.
Far as I can tell they don't use that for their average.
Which is the reason it's not at the top but other european/anglosaxon countries are.
They still got a perfect score on the internet. Thats a separate category in the country by country PDF.
Not my concern being I'm a "its my country, you have yours, your rules are yours".
Foreign movement should matter to you, and you shouldn't be statist with that. The rationale is not that different than free trade. I think there is some space for restrictions but one should aim towards freedom, and in that sense the US is becoming less free.
I think you are being a bit obtuse here as if I lived outside the EU I'd not just be able to walk into a EU country.
Depends on the country. I can actually go live more easily to some of them than the US, others are more restrictive. My country, while not really that free in too many senses, allows for way more freedom of movement than the US, for example.
They still got a perfect score on the internet. Thats a separate category in the country by country PDF.
Ok, but still, there is way more to the internet than porn (and I'm not sure of how recent are those restrictions; they may not be captured by the ranking).
Well, that's the nature of freedom; people weight it differently. Even your perception of freedom is subjective and ignores some stuff to pay more to others (Why do guns matter so much in the big scheme of things? It's a very US thing).
(and even then, I included the HDI for a reason; we should care about results, not just freedom for freedom sake, unless you are some kind of ancap...the great thing about this world is that freedom mostly works)
Fat Britbong "skeptic" and ""classical liberal"" that spents his time making 'response videos' on YouTube, crying about women & SJWs and still being angry over goobergate.
Right, then defending it as if it was in good taste. You know "It's just a joke!" type of edgelord but doesn't get why it's inappropriate because of Freeze Peach.
In my irrelevant Western Yuropean country we have a party that calls itself "conservative", but they would never dare to shill against abortion or gay marriage or anything like that. Those are hills that only the most insane far-right religioncucks would dare to die on over here, at this point.
What mainstream conservatives here will do to gain votes, is casually mention that not all Muslamics seem to like the gays all that much, or that putting a veil on whammen doesn't seem very woke.
But the American system where libruls get casually lumped in with commies (at least, as perceived through the eyes of their opposition )is a little strange. Here in Eurocuckland, "Liberal" tends to mean center-right, and "socialist" is used as a term for milquetoast social democrats who are like Becky marrying Chad (capitalism) thinking she is going to be able to change his asshole ways and bring out his sensitive side.
I have socdem sympathies myself when it comes to economic issues, so basically I'm poking fun at myself here. You have to throw a bone to the far-left Chapocucks occasionally.
I never understood why socdem would ever want to team up with literal socialist.
They are not your friends, they are your enemy.
History has proven that social democracy and socialism are total opposites when it comes down to outcome and living standards.
Tbh, there's so much self-cucking in the way Britbongs are handling their withdrawal from the EU, I don't see them actually leaving anytime soon.
So I guess UKIP may have a reason to stick around and throw bitchfits for the foreseeable future.
IRL he's outlined his views on a bunch of stuff a few times and he actually leans left on most economic stuff (IE the stuff that actually has impact on his life) but he's basically a guy who's SO BUTTHURT over DA WOMANS IN MAH GAMS. that he's joined with the far right.
My eyes pop out from rolling every time i see a rightwing youtuber call themself "skeptic", "rational", "logical" or any other /r/iamverysmart buzzword.
Since when has UKIP not been classical liberal, shitlord? Independence literally means Freedom, Liberal literally means Free. Do you think that in classical times, the U.K. was subjugated to some Europe-wide Empire mostly populated by Dirty Foreigners? I don't think so, shitlord.
I don't think you understand what classical liberalism is, Adam Smith and his free trade ideas (which were formulated in opposition to protectionist policies of "classical" Europe) are central to classical liberalism. UKIP has a more or less protectionist stance nowadays to appease their nationalistic base (keep our jobs in our country). This is fundamentally opposed to Adam Smith.
Do you think that in classical times, the U.K. was subjugated to some Europe-wide Empire mostly populated by Dirty Foreigners like it was before Brexit
Hahahahah. I don't know cirque, there's a chat search feature where it's easy to find it. The comments there are hilarious tho. Also don't mind the pinging if you're a regular. It's ok! I get pinged a million times. Doesn't automatically mean they are butthurt.
When you do go back to the discord to vent, send me some good memes! 😁🤗
Sargon is seriously fucking deranged if he thinks he is able to get into politics after the way he carries on online. "I wouldn't even rape you" or "You're all acting like a bunch of white niggers" are some amazing political quotes.
He might go the way most UKIP-like parties go: rather popular with the people but with exactly no politicians outside the party willing to work with them
Giving money to UKIP means they can market more aggressively, which siphons votes and seats away from more mainstream conservative parties. Additionally, "Nazi pug guy and 'I wouldn't even rape you' guy raised a bunch of money for UKIP" is a Guardian headline that would mobilize the shit out of left-wing voters.
I don't know if they're intentionally implementing that strategy but that's what's gonna happen.
140 comments
1 SnapshillBot 2018-06-17
Promoting anarchofascism for 5 years and counting.
Snapshots:
I am a bot. (Info / Contact)
1 icefourthirtythree 2018-06-17
The UK Independence Party was founded in the 1990s and campaigned for the UK to leave the EU. It's most famous leader was Nigel Farage.
UKIP got 1% of the vote share in the 2017 general election and if there was any doubt that it was dead well here's definitive proof.
1 allendrio 2018-06-17
I heard that the EU doesnt even force immigration, most of britains stuff is apparently entirely voluntary and both parties just let them stay like that for various reasons.
1 Awayfone 2018-06-17
The EU has freedom of movement and residency. Britian can moy stop an EU citizen from living in the country
1 allendrio 2018-06-17
yeah but a whole bunch of the drama is about non EU african & MIddle Eastern migrants IIRC only idiots bitch about polish coming over and working for low wage and better ethics than the locals.
1 I_DRINK_TO_FORGET 2018-06-17
They just have to gain citizenship in germany or some other EU country accepting them and then move to the UK...
1 Fading_Joy 2018-06-17
The UK decides how long you're allowed to stay there, if you're allowed to live there and if you can become a UK citizen thouhg
1 I_DRINK_TO_FORGET 2018-06-17
Almost like a real country and not a vassal state. Wow!
1 Fading_Joy 2018-06-17
Lol im gonna beat you up!!
1 lebron181 2018-06-17
If you live in the UK, that's not true. British working class and working class regions do not enjoy eastern Europeans flooding a community and diluting their culture. There's been a wave of xenophobic attacks towards them.
1 allendrio 2018-06-17
1 lebron181 2018-06-17
You make it sound like it's a minority when half the country voted leave on the basis of too many migrants from Eastern Europe working in low wages and seeing demographic changes in Cities/village.
They wouldn't have voted leave if majority of EU migrants were from western Europe.
1 allendrio 2018-06-17
I never said they are minority, i just said they were idiots.
1 The_DJSeahorse 2018-06-17
Looking out for your own self interests is totes idiotic.
I wonder (((who))) I’m talking to?
1 Neronoah 2018-06-17
Was a rational decision?
1 SamWhite 2018-06-17
'Force' immigration makes me think there's some misconception here. Within the EU there is freedom of movement with the so-called Schengen area. This means if I want to go to Berlin to live and work there I can, as long as I can find a job, and equally Germans can come to my country to do the same. This is the immigration that Leave campaigners are unhappy about, and while you're a part of the EU you don't have any control over it, it's free movement.
However, the entire argument is bullshit. The number of immigrants coming to Britain from outside the EU is equal to number from within, and we have full control over that immigration already, the EU has no say over it. We're talking about getting more control over immigration when we're already choosing not to use the control we already have.
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
Sargon is one of those dudes who has ruined the label "classical liberal" for me.
I thought that just meant: a fairly centrist liberal who doesn't buy into the more convoluted identity politics stuff.
But from what I've seen from him he does have a tendency to shill for the far-right pretty much on every talking point imaginable. Not literally being alt right doesn't exactly make you into a centrist brah. And before the far righters and hardcore Brexiteers spring out of the woodworks: y'all are entitled to your opinion, but don't try to sell your beliefs like some enlightened centrist galaxybrain "classical liberal" like a pussy.
But thanks to losers like him at least I've stopped giving (((J00tube))) retarded talking heads my views, so that's that.
1 Chicup 2018-06-17
You were wrong, classical liberal is a philosophy not a position.
Its basically libertarian.
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
Granted. But in <CurrentYear>, literally no one cares anymore about how terms are originally used in political philosophy, but more about the virtue signalling potential of said term in relation to the targeted audience.
For example, Kermit Memerson (another enlightened Classical Liberal) has concocted a strange philosophical brew that still ends up mostly resembling good ole "family values" Christian conservatism the most, if anything.
But it's an "ironic" Christianity, where the adventures of Jesus are basically turned into capeshit to teach the young Buckos about the virtues of room cleaning and the importance of finding a decent m'lady whose pair bonding hasn't been ruined yet by all that filthy casual sex.
For a guy who hates postmodernism, he sure takes a postmodernist approach.
Having said that, the rebellious component of giving the finger to the overly PC SJWs and their "xhir" insanity must have been a huge component in his meteoric rise.
I think that if the guy just had straight up shilled Christian conservatism from the start, he would never have made it this big. Many (sub)urban Millennials who grew up in the Bush era break out in hives at the mere word "conservatism" (which is pretty stupid if you think about it, but what gives). So if you want to use something that sounds vaguely progressive yet not overly concerned with "stupid" shit like tranny pronouns, then classical liberalism sounds pretty snazzy.
1 Mabans 2018-06-17
> rally no one cares anymore about how terms are originally used in political philosophy, but more about the virtue signalling potential of said term in relation to the targeted audience.
Exactly, like people saying "Republicans done were the ones who free dem slaves.."
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
The Democrats are weird. They started out as the hardcore racist party. Then somewhere around the 60s and the Kennedies n sheit, they became the most based non-racists. Then somewhere in the 2010s they became the hardcore "reverse" racist party.
This might have been exaggerated for comedic effect
1 Mabans 2018-06-17
*THE CIRCLE OF LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
Republicans
19th century - Free the oppressed black people from their employment!
20th century - Free the oppressed black people from their unemployment benefits!
21st century - Free the oppressed white coal miners from their unemployment!
21st century - Fuck over
1 allendrio 2018-06-17
Its really pretty simple, poor uneducated people are racist as fuck, america is weird in that it manages to trick poor people white people into voting to slash their own benefits and subsidies by framing it so that they are totally going to go after the undeserving (blacks) this doesnt mean that the other poor arent also hilariously racist they just vote for their own interests.
1 FearlessFlash 2018-06-17
i can't find a single leftist on reddit that thinks Amazon is a legit cyperpunk evil megacorp. sadly only people on the right i guess care about forcing corporations to treat humans slightly more like humans
1 Superbnoval 2018-06-17
Amazon has great prices on digital cameras.
If Amazon ever starts becoming profit oriented they are going to be bigger than Apple.
Donald Trump hates Amazon because he will never be as successful as Jeff Bezos.
1 FearlessFlash 2018-06-17
Democrats were never about equality. whether its the 1910s or the 2010s they want one race to not be allowed in colleges, to be treated as 2nd class citizens to have special laws only for them.
1 ImagineAllTheGenders 2018-06-17
Republicans did free the slaves. That is an indisputable fact.
Democrats policy toward black people has always been to “manage” them.
1 Mabans 2018-06-17
Yup..
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
Well, if you manage to pull off such an impressive feat as a political party, I can get why they've been able to coast on this since the 19th century and still get in power regularly.
1 ImagineAllTheGenders 2018-06-17
Ok cool thanks.
1 FearlessFlash 2018-06-17
if you just go based on presidencies. republicans won all but one presidential election from 1965-1991, and that one was a fluke because Ford was supposed to quit and let reagan be the nominee in 1976. and kennedy and lbj rigged the 1960 election and 1964 was pretty fucked up too. really the thing that destroyed republicans the most is FDR and 3rd parties.
Clinton "radical centrism" 3rd way neoliberalism destroyed republicans more than anything. from 1988 to 1968 republicans won a majority of the popular vote 5 out of 6 elections. from 1992 to 2016 republicans only 1 out of 7 times.
1 BigPriceToupee 2018-06-17
This is why we see some elments of the anti-enlightenment ("dark enlightenment" is their new label for the old wine bottle) "alt blight" trying to appropriate the Jacobins as somehow being their forerunners, when they're actually closer to the reactionary supporters of the ancien regime
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
Oh God, I had almost forgotten about the Dark Enlightenment. The political movement that sounds like it was named by a 15-year old Crusader Kings player typing his manifesto for an absolute theocratic monarchy in Google Docs with the Cheeto-dusted fingers of his right hand while furiously masturbating with his left, aroused at his own cleverness.
Someone who has the stomach and free time for these things has to go to /r/DarkEnlightenment and /r/DebateFascism to unearth some of the more arcane drama. Your regular vanilla Alt-Right Kekistan Supremacy vs. Intersexanal Chapotraps Feminazi drama has gotten boring and stale.
1 Red_of_Head 2018-06-17
Yet he supported Le Pen over Macron.
1 Chicup 2018-06-17
Sargon is pretty spot on when it comes to freedom of speech and SJW's but thats about it. He at one point though Corbyn made economic sense.
1 Neronoah 2018-06-17
Lol no.
1 Neronoah 2018-06-17
Not really. They used to be way less hardline.
Anyway, classical liberalism evolved to other things for a reason
1 Chicup 2018-06-17
Which things were those?
1 Neronoah 2018-06-17
XIX century capitalism had many excesses (enviromental issues, abuse of labor, children specifically, it couldn't handle the transition from agriculture to industry so well so it even had increases in poverty for a time) and that culminated with the Great Depression, which caught free marketers by surprise (not surprising, the theories to prevent the whole thing came later). Those failures made classical liberalism unattractive and gave a lot of space to collectivist mindsets like fascism and communism.
Many classical liberals tried to reform capitalism (see Mont Pelerin Society), like Friedman and Hayek. There was a little more tolerance for the state side and new ideas like monetarism, even if it remained hardline.
On the political side, while many embraced socialism, you had heterodoxes like Roosevelt that tried to fix rather than replace capitalism, even if very heavyhandendly (again, no one understood what the fuck was going on too well at the time).
That bring us to present day, where this new liberalism (neoliberalism) kind of converged with social democracy in many developed countries. So you have borderline leftists that are called liberal, and then economic liberals that have embraced some degree of regulation and welfare (specially in Europe). Then there is everything in between.
The guys self identifying as classical liberal this days are cringy because they imitate a failed ideology or because they are not really classical liberals, they just want to have the standards of race, sex and culture of the XIX century without any love for actual liberty, while pointing flawed people of the time and using them as deities.
God, what a seriouspost. I'll compensate. Bussy LMAO, Mayocide, Keep yourself safe, etc.
1 Chicup 2018-06-17
I'd call myself a classical liberal and I'm socially liberal even by current year standards, and no cult of personality attached.
Social conservatives don't like that because of the liberal social beliefs.
Leftists don't like it because of the lack of government control of economy.
Its basically libertarianism.
And yes followers tend to be cringey, because its easy to pick out the ones wanting to be there based on some fucked up personal issues. Drugs, sex, just the desire to be fucking weird, conspiracy theories etc. And those aren't even the left libertarians which are cringe on top of stupid.
Most classical liberals these days are your large % of republican voters, who may or may not go to Church but really doesn't give a crap, holds their nose at some of the social conservative stuff but can't stand the leftist stuff.
Thats why I say I'm a libertarian small l not Libertarian insane L.
I woudln't call classical liberalism a failed ideology, just one where people thought they could do better and instead created the worst systems in human history.
1 Neronoah 2018-06-17
It's a generalization. Not everyone that identifies that way is cringy, just most of them.
It was a mixed system more than a failed one, the true fall came because of the Great Depression, that was mostly about monetary issues, not free markets per se. I feel libertarians, specially in the US, are too similar to the free marketers of the XIX century, they haven't learned history properly (specially when trying to mess with the environment, banks and the gold standard). If I want better run countries I'd look to Europe which are more pragmatic and moderate.
I actually have some sympathies for the ideology, I just think it's too dogmatic for its own good and its abandonment was a good thing.
1 Chicup 2018-06-17
I'd say thats not working out so well these days. It also depends on what you value most in life. I value my personal freedom more than the most efficient way to run a country as a thing.
Efficient governments can quickly become authoritarian governments. We don't have the facebook police here like they do there for example, and while I'm libertarian, I realize that some regulation is needed in the economy. For some reason while you can be a moderate conservative or liberal, libertarians are always painted as hard line only.
1 Neronoah 2018-06-17
I use the freedom index and the HDI index mostly. The US is not at the top of any of those (although it's not as bad as many say). Europe has objectively freer countries than the US.
1 Chicup 2018-06-17
You can set the variables to whatever you want, I have close to absolute freedom of speech, the right to bare arms, the right to defend myself (most states), and all those other things in the bill of rights.
None of which apply to the HDI index.
1 Neronoah 2018-06-17
Freedom index: https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index
The only thing not included is weapons. And the disrespect the US have for freedom of movement is bad enough that outweights the fact that they let nazis speak and people use weapons. People weight different types of liberty differently, so that makes the comparison somewhat harder.
I use the Freedom Index together with the HDI to try to estimate what's the best society (as I wrote above). Freedom is a necessary but not sufficient condition to have a good country (although they are fairly correlated). You'll observe that liberal economies with some degree of social protections are at the top at both.
The consistent answer is that the system is too generous to be free (which is an interesting hypothesis but not necessarily true, as always we'll have to test it), not that it's too free, but oh well. Different priorities about liberty.
1 Chicup 2018-06-17
As a US citizen what freedom of movement don't I have? NK and Cuba? Oh our freedom of movement is listed as 10-10, so not sure what you are on about?
Freedom of personal speech isn't even listed that I can see.
And there are several you could take issue with such as the UK having a 10-10 on the internet now that you need porn licenses.
But we are talking about very subjective number here. The US got dinged for someone in the press being killed, I mean who? What?
It also gives the UK a 10-10 for terrorism in 2017...
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42420358
What I'm saying is that you can't be free when a guy teaching his dog the Nazi salute loses in court and could have faced jail time instead of a fine.
Its been tested right now, so far not looking good.
1 Neronoah 2018-06-17
The keyword there is "as a US citizen". If you are from outside it's not really free.
Freedom of expression, which is listed. CATO is a libertarian think tank.
Which is the reason it's not at the top.
I have mixed feelings about it. Thing is, implementation matters, so I'm not accepting it as true for now. Restricting welfare to new entrants for a few years could do the trick, for example.
1 Chicup 2018-06-17
Not my concern being I'm a "its my country, you have yours, your rules are yours". I think you are being a bit pend antic here as if I lived outside the EU I'd not just be able to walk into a EU country. I still have to show my papers to get into Canada and it was the Canadians looking. Same with Mexico.
Far as I can tell they don't use that for their average.
They still got a perfect score on the internet. Thats a separate category in the country by country PDF.
1 Neronoah 2018-06-17
Foreign movement should matter to you, and you shouldn't be statist with that. The rationale is not that different than free trade. I think there is some space for restrictions but one should aim towards freedom, and in that sense the US is becoming less free.
Depends on the country. I can actually go live more easily to some of them than the US, others are more restrictive. My country, while not really that free in too many senses, allows for way more freedom of movement than the US, for example.
Ok, but still, there is way more to the internet than porn (and I'm not sure of how recent are those restrictions; they may not be captured by the ranking).
1 Chicup 2018-06-17
I'm not really arguing the numbers but just pointing out how subjective they are.
1 Neronoah 2018-06-17
Well, that's the nature of freedom; people weight it differently. Even your perception of freedom is subjective and ignores some stuff to pay more to others (Why do guns matter so much in the big scheme of things? It's a very US thing).
(and even then, I included the HDI for a reason; we should care about results, not just freedom for freedom sake, unless you are some kind of ancap...the great thing about this world is that freedom mostly works)
1 [deleted] 2018-06-17
[removed]
1 Zomaarwat 2018-06-17
He ruined Sargon of Akkad for me
1 headasplodes 2018-06-17
/r/drama is dead
1 pi_over_3 2018-06-17
Who would have guess that someone who personally suffered from literally oppressive left wing laws would turn away from the left wing?
1 number_11310 2018-06-17
Give me the juicy details.
1 FcpEcvRtq 2018-06-17
I don't think he is an alt-right shill, but he definitely is a 'tard.
1 myshl0ng 2018-06-17
What's wrong with being far-right?
1 Matues49 2018-06-17
Everything.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2018-06-17
Literally who?
1 CocoNutsOn 2018-06-17
Nazi pug guy.
1 pitterpatterwater 2018-06-17
Nah, that's a different retard.
1 CocoNutsOn 2018-06-17
Ah, with ya... just seen the pug guy and went into full revolt mode 🤢🤮
1 Matues49 2018-06-17
Fat Britbong "skeptic" and ""classical liberal"" that spents his time making 'response videos' on YouTube, crying about women & SJWs and still being angry over goobergate.
1 Jimbo_B_Beterson 2018-06-17
Excuse me he's actually a liberalist and rn he makes videos about SJWs and how Mister Metokur is out to get him.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2018-06-17
Is this guy rage screeching about Sweden being raped? Lmao what a tard
1 Mabans 2018-06-17
Right, then defending it as if it was in good taste. You know "It's just a joke!" type of edgelord but doesn't get why it's inappropriate because of Freeze Peach.
1 tfdidido 2018-06-17
how are u getting upvoted here
1 pitterpatterwater 2018-06-17
Why don't these retsrds just admit that they're center-right lol?
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
These terms are all relative anyway.
In my irrelevant Western Yuropean country we have a party that calls itself "conservative", but they would never dare to shill against abortion or gay marriage or anything like that. Those are hills that only the most insane far-right religioncucks would dare to die on over here, at this point.
What mainstream conservatives here will do to gain votes, is casually mention that not all Muslamics seem to like the gays all that much, or that putting a veil on whammen doesn't seem very woke.
But the American system where libruls get casually lumped in with commies (at least, as perceived through the eyes of their opposition )is a little strange. Here in Eurocuckland, "Liberal" tends to mean center-right, and "socialist" is used as a term for milquetoast social democrats who are like Becky marrying Chad (capitalism) thinking she is going to be able to change his asshole ways and bring out his sensitive side.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2018-06-17
😋😋😋
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
if you had used words to respond, I would at least know what to respond to.
I have socdem sympathies myself so basically I'm poking fun at myself here. You have to throw a bone to the Chapocucks occasionally.
1 Torgent 2018-06-17
I never understood why socdem would ever want to team up with literal socialist.
They are not your friends, they are your enemy.
History has proven that social democracy and socialism are total opposites when it comes down to outcome and living standards.
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
commiebro chapotards arent exactly my friend. but they have the occasional funny memes about socdems being whores for capitalism or somesuch shit.
they excel at the same thing commies have always excelled at: making things sound good on paper
1 Torgent 2018-06-17
I myself am a left libertarian who ended up voting for Trump. I want lower taxes but think maintaining a good safety net is necessary.
We make fun of SocDems because they are socialist apologists and want to restrict our 1A/2A freedoms.
1 pitterpatterwater 2018-06-17
1 Torgent 2018-06-17
I hate neolibs/neocons so what are my choices?
1 pitterpatterwater 2018-06-17
Hillary would unironically been the lesser of two evils, from a left-libertarian perspective.
1 pitterpatterwater 2018-06-17
You have more in common with the US libertarian party than Trump.
1 Torgent 2018-06-17
You mean the fedora tipping guys who nearly made us lose the election?
1 pitterpatterwater 2018-06-17
So you'd prefer to vote for someone whos at odds with your ideology?
1 Torgent 2018-06-17
So you'd prefer to let Killary win and lose all your dear guns and first amendment rights?
Just to be edgy and to vote for third party? Lol.
1 pitterpatterwater 2018-06-17
I don't live in America lol?
1 westofthetracks 2018-06-17
chapo is full of socdems lol, the only socialists that dont get along fine with succs are deranged tankie types
1 Neronoah 2018-06-17
European socialists became moderate over time until jumping to the capitalist bandwagon.
1 BigPriceToupee 2018-06-17
And let's not forget Japan's Liberal Democratic Party which, much like the Holy Roman Empire, was none of those.
1 d4ddyd54m4 2018-06-17
Are the japs appropriating German culture? What does this mean for the mayocide 🤔🤔🤔
1 saddertadder 2018-06-17
Honorary aryan
1 Torgent 2018-06-17
Maybe but in the UK the Labour Party is openly socialist, they want to overthrow the current social and economic order, in their own words.
1 pitterpatterwater 2018-06-17
That's because this American overton window is to the right of Europe's.
1 Neronoah 2018-06-17
The guy isn't even a libertarian.
1 BigPriceToupee 2018-06-17
Basically PJ Wodehouse with 60 percent more chins
1 Prysorra 2018-06-17
Fucking goober joined a party whose only political reason for existence has already passed.
1 Matues49 2018-06-17
Tbh, there's so much self-cucking in the way Britbongs are handling their withdrawal from the EU, I don't see them actually leaving anytime soon. So I guess UKIP may have a reason to stick around and throw bitchfits for the foreseeable future.
1 Mojo12000 2018-06-17
IRL he's outlined his views on a bunch of stuff a few times and he actually leans left on most economic stuff (IE the stuff that actually has impact on his life) but he's basically a guy who's SO BUTTHURT over DA WOMANS IN MAH GAMS. that he's joined with the far right.
1 hery41 2018-06-17
My eyes pop out from rolling every time i see a rightwing youtuber call themself "skeptic", "rational", "logical" or any other /r/iamverysmart buzzword.
1 lolwutermelon 2018-06-17
Haven't you read Locke?
1 eva_unit_hung 2018-06-17
lol sure ed
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2018-06-17
I know now he's just as retarded as you. 😂😂😂
1 -Steve_French- 2018-06-17
Really boring video man
1 Ewindal 2018-06-17
The soyfather
1 Matues49 2018-06-17
But muh classical liberalism
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
Since when has UKIP not been classical liberal, shitlord? Independence literally means Freedom, Liberal literally means Free. Do you think that in classical times, the U.K. was subjugated to some Europe-wide Empire mostly populated by Dirty Foreigners? I don't think so, shitlord.
1 moonflash1 2018-06-17
I don't think you understand what classical liberalism is, Adam Smith and his free trade ideas (which were formulated in opposition to protectionist policies of "classical" Europe) are central to classical liberalism. UKIP has a more or less protectionist stance nowadays to appease their nationalistic base (keep our jobs in our country). This is fundamentally opposed to Adam Smith.
I would suggest this video for a crash course:
https://youtu.be/5ITyd1Pzek0
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
I hate to use this meme, but:
whoosh
1 moonflash1 2018-06-17
lol, it's hard to tell nowadays, that might have been an actual misinformed person
1 PissFanatic 2018-06-17
On my internet?! We can't be having that.
1 mcslibbin 2018-06-17
nice
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
we wuz romano-britons n sheiiit
1 tagghuding 2018-06-17
Sargon of /r/iamverysmart turned out to be a racist all the time
1 mcslibbin 2018-06-17
noooooo
1 kwawi 2018-06-17
no you don't get it, he's only ironically joining UKIP.
1 BasicallyADoctor 2018-06-17
Seems a bit late. They already got their brexit and farage even left the party, what's even left to achieve?
1 aiyooooo 2018-06-17
They want a hard brexit
1 YameteOniichanItai 2018-06-17
Brits are fucking retarded
1 error404brain 2018-06-17
Brits come in two flavors. Chavs and private school.
Chavs barely count as human beings, and private school people are basically french, but with the wrong language.
1 Snowayne2 2018-06-17
Why does he always sound like some bratty teenager?
1 Zomaarwat 2018-06-17
It's not Sargon joining UKIP, it's Count Dankula. The Nazi salute pug guy.
1 LawfulGreat 2018-06-17
In the video, Sargon essentially said "Fuck it, I'll join too"
1 Zomaarwat 2018-06-17
Well I'll be
1 rockstarspood 2018-06-17
Paul Joseph Watson too. More soy for everyone!
1 Plexipus 2018-06-17
His pug radicalized him
1 BigPriceToupee 2018-06-17
that's what happens when you go ahead and stick your dick in crazy
1 shill_house 2018-06-17
My favourite part was the bad ass early 00's stock metal track at the end, accompanied by the "Time to stand for something." in plain white text.
1 jruss71 2018-06-17
1 eva_unit_hung 2018-06-17
itt: ed alts pretending/wishfully thinking nothing will come of this
1 PantherChamp 2018-06-17
Imagine thinking about /u/ed_butteredtoast so much you have to post about him constantly
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2018-06-17
What if it's on discord? /u/CirqueDuFuder
I've heard cirque complains a lot about me. Is this true cirque? Pls tell me this is true! 😂😂😂
1 CirqueDuFuder 2018-06-17
Not really Ed. I save my best criticism for someone directly. Which one of us you think pings each other more?
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2018-06-17
Hahahahah. I don't know cirque, there's a chat search feature where it's easy to find it. The comments there are hilarious tho. Also don't mind the pinging if you're a regular. It's ok! I get pinged a million times. Doesn't automatically mean they are butthurt.
When you do go back to the discord to vent, send me some good memes! 😁🤗
1 CirqueDuFuder 2018-06-17
So, when people talk about you, they are butthurt, but when you do, you aren't?
Interesting concept.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2018-06-17
I just told you. Not by default. But see I know that you love me! 💞 Don't forget about the memes pls!
xoxoxo
1 CirqueDuFuder 2018-06-17
I like you better when you are making an effort in your comments or giving cool info like that archive website you showed us not too long ago.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2018-06-17
This piece of information may not come as a surprise to the general population😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
1 CirqueDuFuder 2018-06-17
That actually isn't what I said at all.
1 Ed_ButteredToast 2018-06-17
It's ok cirque. It's ok. Next time, just come to me if you wanna vent! I'll be a good listener i promise! 😁😊
1 pinoypepper 2018-06-17
How the fuck is this drama? Asides from him spazing I don't see it.
1 BigPriceToupee 2018-06-17
he's gonna leave the basement. Like that John Travolta movie where he wears the space suit.
1 pinoypepper 2018-06-17
He left the basement...In search of fresh bussy
1 I_DRINK_TO_FORGET 2018-06-17
You guys seem really mad that a fat man and a commie joined a political party for the lulz.
1 PantherChamp 2018-06-17
You seem really mad that people are making fun of your retard idol
1 I_DRINK_TO_FORGET 2018-06-17
Please continue posting your lovely 'gotcha' posts I'm sure it will convince at least one person to agree with your agenda some day.
1 PantherChamp 2018-06-17
lol stop being such a sensitive
1 I_DRINK_TO_FORGET 2018-06-17
Keep reeeing at youtubers for joining the opposition. Lol
1 PantherChamp 2018-06-17
oh my god you really are triggered aren't you? Just stop being a pussy and learn to laugh jfc
1 I_DRINK_TO_FORGET 2018-06-17
>No u
Just keep responding with the worst bants possible, absolutely.
1 PantherChamp 2018-06-17
Your downvotes prove just what a ruptured anus you have.
Laugh a little, you pathetic twat, like this!
Your life = HAHAHA
1 I_DRINK_TO_FORGET 2018-06-17
Just keep complaining about downdoodles while you curse impotently at the computer.
1 PantherChamp 2018-06-17
> unironically believing this
Yikes
1 NeilDegrassiIronMike 2018-06-17
He should join a brothel for the dark men to use him
1 PantherChamp 2018-06-17
Retard makes retarded decision?
Colour me shocked!
Just don't let him see me coloured
1 Happy_Pumpkin 2018-06-17
His name is Carl
1 Jorgotten 2018-06-17
Sargon is seriously fucking deranged if he thinks he is able to get into politics after the way he carries on online. "I wouldn't even rape you" or "You're all acting like a bunch of white niggers" are some amazing political quotes.
1 Proto105 2018-06-17
He might go the way most UKIP-like parties go: rather popular with the people but with exactly no politicians outside the party willing to work with them
1 PM_ME_UR_SUSPICIONS 2018-06-17
Sargon is Jordan Peterson for chavs.
1 FrenchValhalla 2018-06-17
Have y'all heard of the spoiler strategy?
Giving money to UKIP means they can market more aggressively, which siphons votes and seats away from more mainstream conservative parties. Additionally, "Nazi pug guy and 'I wouldn't even rape you' guy raised a bunch of money for UKIP" is a Guardian headline that would mobilize the shit out of left-wing voters.
I don't know if they're intentionally implementing that strategy but that's what's gonna happen.
1 RationalPotter 2018-06-17
When Sargon turned out to secretly be Corbyn
1 somercet 2018-06-17
Good for him.