Walls of text as /r/startrek discusses Captain Janeway and sexism towards her character

8  2018-07-06 by WeWuzKANG5

Seriously, so much fucking writing going on:

OP is bravely going where every feminist needing a soap box has gone before, invalid sexist criticisms of women:

If Janeway were a man I GUARANTEE these sorts of criticisms would be FAR less rampant around here. Many people in fact would see her as a bold risk taker akin to Kirk if she had a penis. A lot of men are just deeply uncomfortable at the thought of a headstrong woman in command, and though r/startrek is generally a bastion of enlightened thought I find relative to the rest of the cesspool that is Reddit, it doesn't mean it's not affected by the rampant sexism around here and in society in general. This doesn't mean all criticism of Janeway is sexist, I feel the need to say this before the pedants chomp at the bit. There I said it, fight me.

Don't worry they wont start a lengthy debate, 1600 words later:

I'm not going to get into a lengthy debate with anyone about this. I will however put this out there. I don't dislike Janeway because she's a woman, neither do I think I have some kind secret unconscious gender bias 'monster from the Id' in my mind, you can use that kind of gaslighting on any argument, 'you don't like x because secretly you believe x, it's just buried too deep for you to see', if you have a psychology degree I might give that argument an airing. Over all I like Janeway, I like Kate Mulgrew, I like Kate Mulgrew's portrayal as Janeway. I don't like the writing of Captain Janeway. But first what I do like. One of the first arguments against Janeway that gets written about is how she 'murdered Tuvix'. I actually think this was something I agree showed Janeway was a strong Captain and she made the right decision. There's no real life counterpart to what happened to Tuvix so there's no real world example. But the argument that somehow Neelix and Tuvok were dead and Tuvix was alive is really weak in my opinion. Dead people can't usually be revived, Tasha Yar died and she wasn't magically transported back to life. Janeway made an executive decision and I believe saving two people whose voices were robbed from them due to an accident was the right one to make, Janeway made that call and she made the right one. The same argument has been made for not letting Seven go back to the Borg, the argument is 'Janeway should have respected Seven's adult choices'. Seven was a POW, and wasn't an adult, she was a human kidnapped at 6 and mutilated by her abusers. She wasn't capable of making rational choices and Janeway as the legal authority on board was responsible for her care. If the police found a person that had been kidnapped as a child and subjected to abuse would they really allow the victim to go back to their abuser? Hell no. They'd probably assume that person has Stockholm syndrome and keep them until their mental health can be evaluated. And even if the victim wanted to go back to their abuser that wouldn't be possible since the abuser still broke the law and would be punished. No you can't punish the Borg, unless somehow some more powerful race appears and can do it for you, but it's not like that ever happened in Voyager, and surely wasn't the whole plot of the last two episodes. But I think it's very clear that Janeway is poorly written in some areas. Siding with an enemy that you are at war with for your own convenience is clearly a high treason offence. And the fact she did that and completely changed the balance of the Delta Quadrant leading to the assimilation of a whole race is pretty terrible writing, and something that would be reprehensible as a character no matter what's between their legs. I don't think Kirk, Picard or Sisko get the same hate not because they're males but because they didn't condemn whole species to a fate worse than death. We don't hold Stalin in high regard simply because he's a man, but you know condemned millions of Ukrainians and Kazakhs to death due to famine, we don't hold Stalin in high regard at all, the man was a monster. You simply can't excuse an action like that in fiction, once you've crossed the threshold where you've knowingly helped a genocidal race commit genocide and the only response is, 'I couldn't take a poll' then you've crossed the line into cartoon villainy. You don't need to take a poll of the local planets asking 'Would you like to live as free individuals' or 'Would you like to all become drones and watch your children have their eyes pulled from their sockets?'. I'm pretty sure the results of such a poll are a forgone conclusion. Someone mentioned Sisko here, I've definately criticised Sisko in the past for bombing a whole planet until it completely dies and I think his petty vengeance of Eddington was just stupid, he had what he wanted, it's not like he was ever named the head of the Maquis or anything. I think Sisko really went too far down the, 'we have to deal with the Maquis route', I guess The Maquis should have made him Emissary or something, then they'd be more palatable terrorists. I think the writing of Sisko was often a bit too over the top. Kirk was definately 'schizophrenic' and the writing in early TOS was all over the place. I think it tends to get a pass, maybe because of sexism, certainly it got a pass because the 60's were way more sexist, and there's no going back in time to change that. One week Kirk and Starfleet were more enlightened, or sometimes they were soldiers. I certainly think a lot of the writing in TOS was sexist by today's standards, and I think the 'women can't be captains' episode was sexist even for the 60's, I mean Jesus, did Gene think we were gonna go back to the 18th Century in the future? Picard got better, but quite often he was shown as a little weak and maybe 'too enlightened' not the action hero type, he had his moments, but I think Janeway got a few more chances to do action stuff with higher stakes. Picard maybe in the series was a little too 'Federation' maybe a bit of a tool. Sometimes he took a stand but sometimes he didn't when maybe he should have. No matter what's been said recently though we have to remember actors do their best, sure you can criticise them if they're bad actors. Shatner's certainly pretty much has a whole career based on hammy, laughably over the top acting, just because he's a man he's not going to get a pass on that, quite often he just simply didn't have the range. Mulgrew is actually a very good actor, sometimes not a great person and she admits she gave Jeri Ryan a hard time in Voyager. Should we give that a pass because Mulgrew is a woman? I don't know, I think the fact Jeri Ryan and Kate Mulgrew have repaired that makes the problem somewhat moot. But behind the actors are the writers, producers and directors. Being puerile and vicious like the Star Wars fandom is never the way to go, that's just devolved to this is different and I heard there's some 'SJW's' in it so I'm going to constantly harass Kathleen Kennedy. But saying to the writers 'I think this is weak writing' or 'was this really what you were going for' and making some kind of argument based on the actions of the characters in the work is not sexist or wrong, but you do have to reign it in sometimes. Voyager is done, it's been off the air for like 17 years, I don't think modern politics or sexism really influencing people to enjoy it or hate on it. Janeway is just one part of the show that gets criticism, nearly all aspects of the show get some. The racist ramblings that was Chakotay's back story, the zero character development given to yet another Asian-American actor, Torres being promoted despite being physically violent to another officer, everything Neelix says or does, the 'ahem' medicinal outfit Seven has to wear with medical heels to help with those borg implants. But I guess you've already decided that any answer is just sexist men 'chomping at the bit' and secretly we're all afraid of women, despite the fact you don't know us, our personalities, history, employment or lifestyle or likely even our gender. So like I said I'm not arguing the point. I'm just stating this and leaving it here.

Is there anything worse than space cape shit fans?:

I agree 100%!!!!! It’s not just Star Trek’s reddit, the Game of Thrones books have all sorts of theories about the female characters existing solely for childbirth and motivating male characters. Any other theory that the women are actually the heroes is met with scorn and downvotes As to Janeway, she is my favorite Starfleet Captain. I get so frustrated by people saying she’s hysterics and bipolar blah blah blah because it is bullshit! It is exactly like you said, it is subtle misogyny, maybe not even recognized on a conscious level. But there is one episode where the entire crew is being experimented on and basically tortured. They make it clear to the crew that they will stay until they are done, leaving the crew either dead or disfigured and after prolonged torture. Janeway does a bold move of flying into twin neutron stars, nearly destroying the ship but forcing the aliens to leave and killing half of them in the process. She made an incredibly bold decision that ultimately played out. It was a terrific episode, one of my favorites. But on here it is another reason for how she’s unfit and crazy. What!?!?!?! Like you said, if she had a penis that would be held up as one of the most badass things ever done by a Starfleet Captain. Instead, she’s a crazy unstable woman. Thank you for bringing this up!!!!!! It needs to be addressed. We are Star Trek fans, we need to be better!

This guy uses strawman, it's ineffective:

The poor writing doesn't account for the way fans choose to talk about her.

Not all men/Not all fans:

It's not about that. It's that people tend to use different words to describe men and women. Women are more likely to be dismissed as crazy, and the no need to point out that she's a woman to make a statement that's laced with sexism. If the most you have to contribute to the conversation is "not all fans," I'm going to suggest that you've made your point, and you can move on to everything more productive now. It's clear that you're not prepared to think critically about how you, or others, frame a particular topic. Because that's really what all this is about - pausing and considering the implications behind your own statements, and taking responsibility for that.

It would be different if she was man, when stating the obvious is necessary in 2018:

Despite the fact that I think Janeway was the victim of some truly horrific writing that made her look bad far too frequently, I think your central point is accurate. The tone and vitriol of comments about her would almost certainly be different if Janeway had been a man. Just as the Defiant wouldn't be referred to as Sisko's (ugh) "pimp hand" if Sisko were white.

18 comments

Your condescending, contradictory bullshit isn't attractive to anyone except your frothing, basement-dwelling, virgin army.

Snapshots:

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Personally I loved Voyage when I was younger, especially 7 of 9, mmmmmmmmm. Tuvok was aight.

you forgot the link(s)

Yeah I know I was being lazy sorry, not a huge thread though all easy to find

but which fucking thread goober

Can you provide a link?

Space capeshit eh?

😪😪😪😪

Same! I hate that shit so much 😡😡😡

Ed I think that I just created my first copypasta..a strange feeling indeed.

Where where?

look at these fucking nerds lmao

tl;dr, Voyager was terrible and Janeway was an awful leader.

Lol u/geniusgrunt

LOL I'm honored.

space capeshit faggatory

😴😴😴

I like the fact that the OP states that they “GUARANTEE” that Janeway would receive “FAR” less rampant criticism than a man. It’s the all caps that really bring the argument together and convince you they’re correct.

Fucking nerds, don’t they realise DS9 was far better than Voyager?

The Orville is the best star trek show since Enterprise.

DS9 was a soap opera in space. It was also seemed racist at the time. It reminded me of the Bosnian conflict, which happened in that time frame.

who the fuck cares, how is this drama. its you being mad about other people being mad about other people being mad about a syndicated science fiction tv show. so what the fuck