You are receiving this message because you posted in defense of Donald Trump. I no longer provide individual responses on this matter. It has been my experience that Trump supporters are universally incapable of accepting verifiable truths about him and, by extension, themselves, thus rendering discussion pointless and, therefore, a waste of time.
I wish you all the best in your ongoing battle with reality.
If you feel like you're being mocked now, it's because you are. If you want to avoid this sensation, you should stop picking things off the internet and selling them as your opinion, with no more credibility behind them than "someone said this and someone made a video of it".
I respect and admire Professor Brailsford, but since I am not a kid on the internet who gets his opinion formulated for him on asocial media, but a fully formed human being with a mind of his own, I disagree with him in this case...in fact, I call his sentiment in this case complete pigswill.
Literally egoes large enough to sail an aircraft carrier through
I hate even posting to a programming community because inevitably someone is going to try to uhhhmmm ackshually me on some pedantic point just to prove how much smarter they are. I say this as a programmer. If you've ever noticed this behavior from me, that's where it comes from.
Listen here you little shit. If you write anything that doesn’t itself compile to machine code, you are less than fucking human. C++ doesn’t count as it’s cancer.
Remember in Pulp Fiction when Jules Winfield—played memorably by Samuel L Jackson in one of his earliest roles—told that Dude “you a smart motherfucker”? Imagine that scene, but with “stupid” in place of “smart”. That’s my current headspace
How the fuck do you turn "you a stupid motherfucker" into a 17-page essay about how nerdy you are? It's fucking impressive
Brogrammers always mock frontend like it’s not a real “programming language”. They can deny all they want while I sip my bubble tea, watch their profession being ported over to frontend more and more, and get turned over my higher salary than theirs 💅🏼
But seriously though, backend people are the worst. Frontend isn't something anyone can do. That being said it ain't for me front end is just constantly putting out a dumpster fire of code
They think they are “smarter” than frontend people but these two fields are very different from each other. There’s no X is smarter. It’s a completely different skill set. I have design eye and I often give my take on how the UI could be better. That’s a skill that most backend people don’t have. If I squeeze my brian, I can do backend but I’m not interested at all and it hurts my brian plus gives me grey hair. I leave it to someone more talented in that area.
That’s a misconception that fronted is still a dumpster of fire. It definitely used to be but in recent years, frontend has improved so much with ES6 and modern frameworks that you don’t even need to hire backend developers in many places anymore. For enterprise level, of course, you still need backend but for a simple commercial website, you can use modern frontend frameworks that support OO and MVC. Then, use serverless like Node.js. Viola! Done. I can do from UI to SQL and that’s why my role now gets paid more. Backend people really need to stop underestimating the power of frontend. Everything is moving into that direction.
My plan to find a niche where i don't talk to people and just deal with sql and vba and databases all day and nothing ever goes wrong and i leave at 5 pm and then i go home happy. As for now just regular office shit, i should have kiss more ass in college, or at least gotten a technical degree.
Yeah that's impossible my guy. Things always go wrong. Things need to be updated off hours. No small businesses use databases anymore that's all amnafed through CRM and small scale ERP software now
I did internships for some big companies and if i leanred something from it it was this. The people at the top can be just as stupid as the people at the people at bottom.
I find SQL to be totally alien to how the human mind works and really difficult to deal with, but maybe that's just because I know it's for more than just SELECT statements. 🙄
A select statement is basically just an implementation of the mathematical concept of the set comprehension. Actually if you've ever dealt with a language that allows for list comprehension (like Python or Haskell) it's actually more or less the same concept. It's also not unheard of to use linq in c# to basically implement list comprehensions, that shit is useful af.
There is so much shit in this that is causing me to sperg. God damn it this is good bait.
No, frontend is still a dumpster fire. I have to deal with website frontends and they all fucking suck. The javascript is a clusterfuck. Half the time the framework is only partially used with more javascript slapped on because the monkeys that spat it out couldn't bother to maintain tooling consistency. Node.js fucking sucks. It's only advantage, non-blocking I/O, has now been replicated in C# (and maybe Java, but I wouldn't know) with async/await and the Task library. Javascript is easy to start with, which is why it ends up with so many mediocre dumbshits trying to peddle it across the entire stack since they lack enough braincells to rub together to bother learning another language.
The only reason things are moving more into the frontend is because the backend is just giving up on trying to maintain any kind of cohesion with MVC. It's just surrender in the face of overwhelming javascript mediocrity. The "OOP" of these frontend frameworks isn't OOP at all because javascript is prototype-based. The ECMAScript features are just workarounds and syntactical hacks that pale in comparison to the real thing.
Also, if you really were a good frontend developer, you would have brought up reactive programming. Also, don't say you can do SQL. No, you can't. You can string together simple queries, but that's not "doing SQL". Most backend devs can't really "do SQL". There's a reason persistence is an art unto itself. It's fucking complicated and writing a few CRUD queries will never do that justice.
Backend developers who just shit on the frontend are idiots, but so are dweebs like you who have an inferiority complex.
Knowing C# has value, but I'd say the real value is in knowing some .NET frameworks, as well. It's an issue I'm thinking on in preparation for changing jobs. I use C# and the standard libraries as a part of my frontend automation work, but I haven't really used the .NET frameworks as a part of my job. Now I'm trying to mess around with them on the side to build some cred.
Entity Framework is an important one. ASP.NET MVC probably gets a good amount of use, but I don't know how well it competes with more dedicated frontend frameworks like Angular or React. I believe they can be used in conjunction, though. I think they're merging all the ASP.NET stuff into a single framework for .NET Core.
Np. In all honesty, the other guy is right on the money about being a custodian of some business backend. Enterprise software sucks, but it's also the majority of work that needs to be done.
Just because you can’t write clean and modular ES6 doesn’t mean it’s a dumpster fire, sweaty
No, I need to deal with other people's frontends.
The frontend MVC/MVVM/MVfuckyou frameworks are all overwrought. Again, reactive programming
The SQL comment is an ironic remark towards backend people who claim they can do JS 😉 of course, I know I can’t do 3000 lines of SQL.
It's not a good comparison. Language knowledge transfers over to vanilla JS. Then it's a matter of understanding the nature of prototype design pattern, functions as objects, and scoping. I leave out async/await and promises since, as I mentioned before, they're being used in other languages now. The real pain with JS is keeping track of the billion of frameworks. SQL, on the other hand, is a much different transfer and there's all kind of database-specific knowledge required to make the best use of it.
Just because the general knowledge transfers doesn’t mean you could code in that language, sweaty 💅🏼
I come from OO background. The first programming language I learned was Java and then, C# and .NET. In recent years, I’ve been doing PHP instead. Yes, it’s all quite similar in theory. ES6 tries to be OO do the concept is there but does that mean I can go back and code in Java or C#? No. I do have the understanding of them and I have coded using them before but I’m not exposed to it daily.
The reason it’s a dumpster fire for you is because it’s not your profession. You might see the cleanest JS code and you still might think it’s dumpster fire because you’re comparing it to your own profession.
The second comment I posted under here highlights that. They are very different skill sets. When I look at JS, I don’t see tangled web of nonsense. It makes sense to me because that’s where my brain is good at. I can untangle the bad code someone else has written. But I struggle to do backend things. I can still do them because if I forced myself. Like I said my background is from backend and I have understanding of basic concepts l but it gives me a headache and I don’t enjoy the time doing it. I would just wish I could be doing something else.
It’s all about personal preference, brah. You can’t make me ride mayo dicks while I prefer BBC, you feel me? To me when I look at backend code, I see a messy chore that I need to do but don’t want to. You see it that way with frontend. It’s all about perspective.
It is my profession, lol. Like I said, I have to work with numerous major frontends as a part of my work. I know what clean JS code looks like. I know what well structured frontends look like. Most frontends don't look like that. I personally blame it on the nature of Javascript as a language. It's too easy for an undisciplined developer to fuck up existing work by deviating from the framework and just throwing their own shit in. Yes, this is possible in compiled languages, but not as easy. Furthermore, ES6 hasn't been around long enough for the new features to trickle into existing codebases. That means most frontends are still reflective of old practices like callback hell, and these old practices also stick around with some lazier developers.
Just because you're not capable of jumping between the two does not mean others aren't.
Because the backend people keep reinforcing the myth that “frontend is easy” which encourages from UX designers to random hipsters to join frontend and halfassing the code without ever going to a proper school to learn about programming.
ES6 tries to be OO. So, the basic OO concept is there but does that mean I can go back and code in Java or C#? No. I do have the understanding of them and I have coded using them before
Oh, another thing is I like learning and experiencing new things. That’s why my learning history is all over the place. Frontend is for people who like to explore new frameworks constantly. You like strict standards and stability? That’s your thing but I want to keep exploring something different and see if it’s better.
Every aspect of development has a massive amount of material from which to learn. I never said anything about "strict standards and stability".
Look, I'm probably being overly critical of the frontend for issues that exist across the entire stack. There is shitty, unmanageable code everywhere. If you're happy in the frontend, then fuck the backend people who shit on it. I do agree with you that they underestimate the complexity of frontend challenges. Hell, UI design is a beast I won't touch, let alone the actual formatting stuff like proper color gradients and CSS tweaking.
IE 8? Or IE 8 with compatibility mode? Trying to design a website that works with legacy lan compatibility mode is pure torture. I eventually found my way around it by using meta tags to force disable it. Thankfully we used IE11 at least, like it's not perfect but it's light years ahead of what you can do if your stuck trying to build a design that works in quirks mode.
I had to support from IE6+ in the past. Nowadays, since Microsoft also officially stopped supporting the old versions, clients have agreed to support IE11 and Edge. I can finally use Flex, baby!
Are you arguing that prototype-based object systems are in some way less object-oriented than class-based ones?
Academically, no. In practice, Javascript is the only widely used prototype-based language and it's lacking numerous "typical" OOP features. How would one go about implementing interfacing into the language? Javascript being prototype-based inhibits it from being capable of normal OOP shit that boring enterprisey languages can offer.
The ones it does lack can very simply be implemented by using its interposition support together with prototypes. I can't think of a single feature that isn't either trivial to implement, or superfluous if you know how to work with prototypes. JS is really fucking extensible, far more than a lot of languages with class-based OO.
How would one go about implementing interfacing into the language?
I don't think that particularly makes sense with duck-typing, and there are a lot of languages with duck-typing and class-based OO who don't use interfaces. It would be more useful for, say, Typescript. (BTW, for duck-typed languages I would go with contracts to enforce interfacing rules).
I'm going to move the goalposts and say that I was mostly responding to the following when saying it's not OOP:
For enterprise level, of course, you still need backend but for a simple commercial website, you can use modern frontend frameworks that support OO and MVC.
I got the sense that the previous user was saying that these frontend frameworks can act as a stand-in for the OOP one would encounter when working with C# or Java. Being slightly tipsy and writing a stream-of-conciousness comment, I spat out that it's not real OOP.
In light of your comments, I was wrong. I knew that prototype-based programming is still OOP, but I am not very familiar with OO implementation in Javascript so to me it comes off as awkward. Like I said earlier, lack of imagination. Mea culpa.
I can't believe I spend time on this
Lol, it's actually interesting to me, so I appreciate it along with the rest of the comment.
In light of your comments, I was wrong. I knew that prototype-based programming is still OOP, but I am not very familiar with OO implementation in Javascript so to me it comes off as awkward. Like I said earlier, lack of imagination. Mea culpa.
Don't worry, I was just calling you a retard to get some drama going. The pinging ban has left a toll on all of us.
Lol, it's actually interesting to me, so I appreciate it along with the rest of the comment.
Great, then that effortposting was actually worth something!
Backend guy here. Don’t get us wrong, not everyone can do front end, same as not everyone can shove a shotgun up their ass and have it poke their stomach. You can do it, but you’re retarded to go through that much suffering for no good reason. The field of frontend devs is worse than hell itself, and the devs working in it are retarded precisely because they chose to work there, no other reason.
I have two degrees. One in Arts and one in Science. I also have like 2 graduate diploma and 1 post graduate diploma in CS. I’m your regular Asian overachiever. This is considered “not enough” on Asian standards because I don’t have a masters 😭
That's ok, i knew a cute asian girl who waa crying once because she only got an A and not an A+ and that her mom was gonna give her the silent treatment all week for it.
I wonder where she is right now, i hope she's happy. Fuck i miss my youth, should have been less of a sperg. I only have one degree is regular bussiness shit and i regret it cause it taught me nothing. Fucking college, 4 years and all i learned is that most degrees are shit.
There was definitely a problem when all the dotcom boom frontend tard children flooded into the labor force starting around the late 1990s. There were literal boomers with decades of experience who knew how to get shit done in ways that were simple and cost-effective and they get swamped by a bunch of children who wanted to reinvent the wheel. A lot of my boomer-posting shtick is inspired by this.
I think the most damning thing I ever heard was some geezer telling me about how in the early 1980s on dumb terminals he could put up a form more sophisticated than he could through web services in the 2000s. You really need to reevaluate your life when the frontend guys from back then who didn't even have a fucking computer to work with are outperforming you.
Web services are online and can be accessed with a simple browser. It doesn't mattee if you could hack together a hideous barely functional dos form with more technical features faster, what are you going to do, go to every single client's computer and install the program. Also did this program when interface with a database to store the information, or did it just print it out on paper like a dumbass?
Web services are online and can be accessed with a simple browser.
Obviously we don't have to pay $30,000 for a terminal anymore. The point is that if we can have better hardware for $500 it ought to do at least as much for us.
It doesn't mattee if you could hack together a hideous barely functional dos form with more technical features faster, what are you going to do, go to every single client's computer and install the program.
I specified that it was a dumb terminal already. You utter fucking retard, I know this is a troll account but at least try harder.
Also did this program when interface with a database to store the information, or did it just print it out on paper like a dumbass?
Yeah, they actually had computers and shit in the '80s. Don't blame me for you being so historically illiterate that you think punched cards were still predominant then. Also ask your mom if she'll fuck me since she's obviously pretty young if she gave birth to you. Thx.
I actually like front end and back end about equally and am skilled in both. I almost always wind up doing back end though because there tends to be more demand in that direction.
HTML and markuo tends to be pretty straightforward... your just describing what elements are going to be in the page and their general order. CSS is where the real wizardry comes into play. I'm like super proud of the beautiful flat design tables I designed to hold boring accounting data on a web site that otherwise barely looks better than geocities. Unfortunately while I am good with color and aesthetics, I am not so good with at usability.
It’s because frontend is considered a “wamen field”. Therefore, brogrammers assume it is easy. Frontend is also more than just HTML and CSS. A lot of business logic is handled by JS nowadays. Look at all the “big” websites, they either use Vue or React. A lot of heavy loading is done by frontend. They don’t pass things over to backend unnecessarily. Even in frontend, my approach is to resolve as much as I can in CSS. I don’t put in unnecessary JavaScript and bloat up the file size. With things like webpack you can even load the css, js and even images that are ONLY needed for the current page the user is viewing. This allows the loading speed to be ultra fast. That blew my mind when I first switched to webpack. I’m gonna say it again. Backend people are snoozing on all this.
That’s why I refuse to use 4chan. Its frontend is pure crap. I didn’t even use Reddit before I discovered the existence of unofficial apps. For a lot of users, what they see and the user experience are very important.
Pardon me but I wouldn't assume it's safe to rely on Javascript for business logic. That runs on the user's machine and they can modify it, thus breaking your rules. It's fine to validate with Javascript on the user side, you can be quicker and more responsive that way. But in the end the server should have the final say, I wouldn't just trust the data I get from operations performed in Javascript.
Depends on the business logic. Why do you think all of them involve passing sensitive data? For example, if you’re on an e-commerce site, a lot of the things you do like browsing, putting in the cart, customized experience, etc, don’t really need backend except for requesting data from the backend now and again. Only when the users decided to checkout or fill some form, frontend validation is not enough but not every single step of the user experience requires data to be validated.
lmao at all the nerds all over reddit that take such pride in being computer jannies. The worst ones are those who just aspire to it, but haven't finished school yet.
108 comments
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1 SnapshillBot 2019-05-26
Hello.
You are receiving this message because you posted in defense of Donald Trump. I no longer provide individual responses on this matter. It has been my experience that Trump supporters are universally incapable of accepting verifiable truths about him and, by extension, themselves, thus rendering discussion pointless and, therefore, a waste of time.
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1 HyakkimarusSchlong 2019-05-26
This is some spicy bantz.
1 Quietus42 2019-05-26
I feel the loss of pinging like a human rights violation right now.
1 UpvoteIfYouDare 2019-05-26
Programmers can get vicious when it comes to petty bullshit specific languages.
1 The_Pandemonium 2019-05-26
What a fucking nerd.
1 uniqueguy263 2019-05-26
Who talks like that?
1 ManBearFridge 2019-05-26
Based mofos telling it like it is
1 watermark002 2019-05-26
Programmers
Literally egoes large enough to sail an aircraft carrier through
I hate even posting to a programming community because inevitably someone is going to try to uhhhmmm ackshually me on some pedantic point just to prove how much smarter they are. I say this as a programmer. If you've ever noticed this behavior from me, that's where it comes from.
1 forward_dawn 2019-05-26
Listen here you little shit. If you write anything that doesn’t itself compile to machine code, you are less than fucking human. C++ doesn’t count as it’s cancer.
1 uniqueguy263 2019-05-26
It's so fucking awkward tho
1 uniqueguy263 2019-05-26
How the fuck do you turn "you a stupid motherfucker" into a 17-page essay about how nerdy you are? It's fucking impressive
1 Alicesnakebae 2019-05-26
I like to imagine these conversations happening in between swirlies
1 Whaddaulookinat 2019-05-26
The National ad and social campaigns against bullying was a sore mistake
1 600_lbs_of_sin 2019-05-26
EARLY
AND
OFTEN
1 The_Great_I_Am_Not 2019-05-26
I wonder what Tim Berners-Lee would have to say about this?
https://webfoundation.org/2019/03/web-birthday-30/
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
Brogrammers always mock frontend like it’s not a real “programming language”. They can deny all they want while I sip my bubble tea, watch their profession being ported over to frontend more and more, and get turned over my higher salary than theirs 💅🏼
1 Pewkie 2019-05-26
But seriously though, backend people are the worst. Frontend isn't something anyone can do. That being said it ain't for me front end is just constantly putting out a dumpster fire of code
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
They think they are “smarter” than frontend people but these two fields are very different from each other. There’s no X is smarter. It’s a completely different skill set. I have design eye and I often give my take on how the UI could be better. That’s a skill that most backend people don’t have. If I squeeze my brian, I can do backend but I’m not interested at all and it hurts my brian plus gives me grey hair. I leave it to someone more talented in that area.
That’s a misconception that fronted is still a dumpster of fire. It definitely used to be but in recent years, frontend has improved so much with ES6 and modern frameworks that you don’t even need to hire backend developers in many places anymore. For enterprise level, of course, you still need backend but for a simple commercial website, you can use modern frontend frameworks that support OO and MVC. Then, use serverless like Node.js. Viola! Done. I can do from UI to SQL and that’s why my role now gets paid more. Backend people really need to stop underestimating the power of frontend. Everything is moving into that direction.
1 Sweaty_Camera 2019-05-26
Fuck you. That quirky, retarded flair on common sayings makes you look retarded.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
💅🏼
1 QuestionThymes 2019-05-26
What a faggot
1 Vurtizontal 2019-05-26
This is literary coping, like literary.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
We are all getting replaced soon but I am a waman. I can also fall back on Google for a job as last resort. What’s your plan? 💅🏼
1 Vurtizontal 2019-05-26
My plan to find a niche where i don't talk to people and just deal with sql and vba and databases all day and nothing ever goes wrong and i leave at 5 pm and then i go home happy. As for now just regular office shit, i should have kiss more ass in college, or at least gotten a technical degree.
1 Pewkie 2019-05-26
Yeah that's impossible my guy. Things always go wrong. Things need to be updated off hours. No small businesses use databases anymore that's all amnafed through CRM and small scale ERP software now
1 Vurtizontal 2019-05-26
Fuck it then. Ill just look for an easy job in customer service or some other shit.
1 Pewkie 2019-05-26
I just ride the waves. Corporate wants to piss on the walls? Well it is what it is.
Lose my job to a department shakeup? It is what it is.
Stuck in the ether of getting AD permissions granted for what seems like eternity? It is what it is.
If you wanna work in IT, part of your job is being the glorified custodians of the business backend, so 20 dollars is 20 dollars
1 Vurtizontal 2019-05-26
Whatever happens, happens.
I did internships for some big companies and if i leanred something from it it was this. The people at the top can be just as stupid as the people at the people at bottom.
1 UpvoteIfYouDare 2019-05-26
This is as depressing as it is true.
1 Pewkie 2019-05-26
It is what it is. I originally hated it now it's just chill once I changed my mantra.
If this contract I have at the moment doesn't work out, I'm gonna become an electrician though haha
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
One doesn’t even minor in SQL. Even I can do SQL 🙄🤷🏻♀️
1 ManBearFridge 2019-05-26
But can you optimize it?
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
TRUNCATE *
1 watermark002 2019-05-26
SQL optimization is literally black magic.
1 Pewkie 2019-05-26
Got a problem? Just rebuild it.
Shits broke? Rebuild that shit
Everything is running slow? Can I get uh..........rebuild? Hold the Mayo.
If that doesn't work just replace rebuild with redefine and rinse and repeat. Don't question what is happening just pray.
1 Redactor0 2019-05-26
I find SQL to be totally alien to how the human mind works and really difficult to deal with, but maybe that's just because I know it's for more than just SELECT statements. 🙄
1 watermark002 2019-05-26
A select statement is basically just an implementation of the mathematical concept of the set comprehension. Actually if you've ever dealt with a language that allows for list comprehension (like Python or Haskell) it's actually more or less the same concept. It's also not unheard of to use linq in c# to basically implement list comprehensions, that shit is useful af.
1 Happypumkin 2019-05-26
My dad's company is hiring for basically that same kind of person but it's apparently hard to find anyone who knows how to use MySQL
1 UpvoteIfYouDare 2019-05-26
There is so much shit in this that is causing me to sperg. God damn it this is good bait.
No, frontend is still a dumpster fire. I have to deal with website frontends and they all fucking suck. The javascript is a clusterfuck. Half the time the framework is only partially used with more javascript slapped on because the monkeys that spat it out couldn't bother to maintain tooling consistency. Node.js fucking sucks. It's only advantage, non-blocking I/O, has now been replicated in C# (and maybe Java, but I wouldn't know) with async/await and the Task library. Javascript is easy to start with, which is why it ends up with so many mediocre dumbshits trying to peddle it across the entire stack since they lack enough braincells to rub together to bother learning another language.
The only reason things are moving more into the frontend is because the backend is just giving up on trying to maintain any kind of cohesion with MVC. It's just surrender in the face of overwhelming javascript mediocrity. The "OOP" of these frontend frameworks isn't OOP at all because javascript is prototype-based. The ECMAScript features are just workarounds and syntactical hacks that pale in comparison to the real thing.
Also, if you really were a good frontend developer, you would have brought up reactive programming. Also, don't say you can do SQL. No, you can't. You can string together simple queries, but that's not "doing SQL". Most backend devs can't really "do SQL". There's a reason persistence is an art unto itself. It's fucking complicated and writing a few CRUD queries will never do that justice.
Backend developers who just shit on the frontend are idiots, but so are dweebs like you who have an inferiority complex.
1 Vurtizontal 2019-05-26
Im learning c# for Unity, how much would those skills be transferable to an eventual regular job in an office setting?
1 UpvoteIfYouDare 2019-05-26
Knowing C# has value, but I'd say the real value is in knowing some .NET frameworks, as well. It's an issue I'm thinking on in preparation for changing jobs. I use C# and the standard libraries as a part of my frontend automation work, but I haven't really used the .NET frameworks as a part of my job. Now I'm trying to mess around with them on the side to build some cred.
Entity Framework is an important one. ASP.NET MVC probably gets a good amount of use, but I don't know how well it competes with more dedicated frontend frameworks like Angular or React. I believe they can be used in conjunction, though. I think they're merging all the ASP.NET stuff into a single framework for .NET Core.
1 Vurtizontal 2019-05-26
Very interesting, thanks for your comment.
1 UpvoteIfYouDare 2019-05-26
Np. In all honesty, the other guy is right on the money about being a custodian of some business backend. Enterprise software sucks, but it's also the majority of work that needs to be done.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
I know both C# and .NET (or at least used to know years ago) but I chose frontend anyway 🤷🏻♀️
1 seenten 2019-05-26
MS is more or less trying to slowly kill off "traditional" .NET Framework and ASP in favor of their Core counterparts.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
Just because you can’t write clean and modular ES6 doesn’t mean it’s a dumpster fire, sweaty 💅🏼
The SQL comment is an ironic remark towards backend people who claim they can do JS 😉 of course, I know I can’t do 3000 lines of SQL.
1 UpvoteIfYouDare 2019-05-26
No, I need to deal with other people's frontends.
The frontend MVC/MVVM/MVfuckyou frameworks are all overwrought. Again, reactive programming
It's not a good comparison. Language knowledge transfers over to vanilla JS. Then it's a matter of understanding the nature of prototype design pattern, functions as objects, and scoping. I leave out async/await and promises since, as I mentioned before, they're being used in other languages now. The real pain with JS is keeping track of the billion of frameworks. SQL, on the other hand, is a much different transfer and there's all kind of database-specific knowledge required to make the best use of it.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
Just because the general knowledge transfers doesn’t mean you could code in that language, sweaty 💅🏼
I come from OO background. The first programming language I learned was Java and then, C# and .NET. In recent years, I’ve been doing PHP instead. Yes, it’s all quite similar in theory. ES6 tries to be OO do the concept is there but does that mean I can go back and code in Java or C#? No. I do have the understanding of them and I have coded using them before but I’m not exposed to it daily.
The reason it’s a dumpster fire for you is because it’s not your profession. You might see the cleanest JS code and you still might think it’s dumpster fire because you’re comparing it to your own profession.
The second comment I posted under here highlights that. They are very different skill sets. When I look at JS, I don’t see tangled web of nonsense. It makes sense to me because that’s where my brain is good at. I can untangle the bad code someone else has written. But I struggle to do backend things. I can still do them because if I forced myself. Like I said my background is from backend and I have understanding of basic concepts l but it gives me a headache and I don’t enjoy the time doing it. I would just wish I could be doing something else.
It’s all about personal preference, brah. You can’t make me ride mayo dicks while I prefer BBC, you feel me? To me when I look at backend code, I see a messy chore that I need to do but don’t want to. You see it that way with frontend. It’s all about perspective.
1 UpvoteIfYouDare 2019-05-26
It is my profession, lol. Like I said, I have to work with numerous major frontends as a part of my work. I know what clean JS code looks like. I know what well structured frontends look like. Most frontends don't look like that. I personally blame it on the nature of Javascript as a language. It's too easy for an undisciplined developer to fuck up existing work by deviating from the framework and just throwing their own shit in. Yes, this is possible in compiled languages, but not as easy. Furthermore, ES6 hasn't been around long enough for the new features to trickle into existing codebases. That means most frontends are still reflective of old practices like callback hell, and these old practices also stick around with some lazier developers.
Just because you're not capable of jumping between the two does not mean others aren't.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
Because the backend people keep reinforcing the myth that “frontend is easy” which encourages from UX designers to random hipsters to join frontend and halfassing the code without ever going to a proper school to learn about programming.
1 Literally_Stop 2019-05-26
Maybe it's just because you're a waman
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
Your opinion as a man isn’t really needed here tho
1 Literally_Stop 2019-05-26
Thinking Java or C# are difficult languages, rofl
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
When did I say that, sweaty 💅🏼
1 Literally_Stop 2019-05-26
Sorry you have short term memory loss
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
It’s common for people to forget the syntax of programming languages that they don’t use often, sweaty 🙄
1 Literally_Stop 2019-05-26
It's ok, let the men do the hawd workypoo cutie pie.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
Oh, another thing is I like learning and experiencing new things. That’s why my learning history is all over the place. Frontend is for people who like to explore new frameworks constantly. You like strict standards and stability? That’s your thing but I want to keep exploring something different and see if it’s better.
1 UpvoteIfYouDare 2019-05-26
lol wat
Every aspect of development has a massive amount of material from which to learn. I never said anything about "strict standards and stability".
1 UpvoteIfYouDare 2019-05-26
lol wat
Every aspect of development has a massive amount of material from which to learn. I never said anything about "strict standards and stability".
Look, I'm probably being overly critical of the frontend for issues that exist across the entire stack. There is shitty, unmanageable code everywhere. If you're happy in the frontend, then fuck the backend people who shit on it. I do agree with you that they underestimate the complexity of frontend challenges. Hell, UI design is a beast I won't touch, let alone the actual formatting stuff like proper color gradients and CSS tweaking.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
Every time I meet a backend dev who says frontend is easy, I challenge them to make a mildly complex UI looks exactly the same in IE 8 🤭
1 watermark002 2019-05-26
IE 8? Or IE 8 with compatibility mode? Trying to design a website that works with legacy lan compatibility mode is pure torture. I eventually found my way around it by using meta tags to force disable it. Thankfully we used IE11 at least, like it's not perfect but it's light years ahead of what you can do if your stuck trying to build a design that works in quirks mode.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
I had to support from IE6+ in the past. Nowadays, since Microsoft also officially stopped supporting the old versions, clients have agreed to support IE11 and Edge. I can finally use Flex, baby!
1 200iqBigBrain 2019-05-26
you're autistic
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
You can’t code if you’re not a little autistic
1 b-haze 2019-05-26
Are you arguing that prototype-based object systems are in some way less object-oriented than class-based ones? What's your basis for that claim?
I agree, "doing SQL" requires a background knowledge of relational programming, which most people don't have.
1 UpvoteIfYouDare 2019-05-26
Academically, no. In practice, Javascript is the only widely used prototype-based language and it's lacking numerous "typical" OOP features. How would one go about implementing interfacing into the language? Javascript being prototype-based inhibits it from being capable of normal OOP shit that boring enterprisey languages can offer.
my ass
1 b-haze 2019-05-26
The ones it does lack can very simply be implemented by using its interposition support together with prototypes. I can't think of a single feature that isn't either trivial to implement, or superfluous if you know how to work with prototypes. JS is really fucking extensible, far more than a lot of languages with class-based OO.
I don't think that particularly makes sense with duck-typing, and there are a lot of languages with duck-typing and class-based OO who don't use interfaces. It would be more useful for, say, Typescript. (BTW, for duck-typed languages I would go with contracts to enforce interfacing rules).
But you can do it, and I can't believe I spend time on this. https://repl.it/repls/UrbanDefinitiveJava
Can you post a picture?
2 UpvoteIfYouDare 2019-05-26
I'm going to move the goalposts and say that I was mostly responding to the following when saying it's not OOP:
I got the sense that the previous user was saying that these frontend frameworks can act as a stand-in for the OOP one would encounter when working with C# or Java. Being slightly tipsy and writing a stream-of-conciousness comment, I spat out that it's not real OOP.
In light of your comments, I was wrong. I knew that prototype-based programming is still OOP, but I am not very familiar with OO implementation in Javascript so to me it comes off as awkward. Like I said earlier, lack of imagination. Mea culpa.
Lol, it's actually interesting to me, so I appreciate it along with the rest of the comment.
You'd have to buy me dinner, first.
1 b-haze 2019-05-26
Don't worry, I was just calling you a retard to get some drama going. The pinging ban has left a toll on all of us.
Great, then that effortposting was actually worth something!
1 b-haze 2019-05-26
Answer me you retard
1 UpvoteIfYouDare 2019-05-26
wow rude
1 seenten 2019-05-26
Well I currently do backend and want to kms at the end of every day, so maybe I should start taking more frontend work items.
1 Vurtizontal 2019-05-26
Backend people are the worst because they deal with actual problems and they have actual responsibility.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
Yeah, they have actual problems like having trouble holding eye contact with women 💁🏻♀️
1 Vurtizontal 2019-05-26
Once ai waifus are real that will no longer be a problem. The future if bright and full of waifus.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
Well, I’m not threatened because I’m not fishing for men of that demographic lol
1 Vurtizontal 2019-05-26
To be honest that comment was for myself more than you.
1 forward_dawn 2019-05-26
Backend guy here. Don’t get us wrong, not everyone can do front end, same as not everyone can shove a shotgun up their ass and have it poke their stomach. You can do it, but you’re retarded to go through that much suffering for no good reason. The field of frontend devs is worse than hell itself, and the devs working in it are retarded precisely because they chose to work there, no other reason.
1 b-haze 2019-05-26
answer me you retard
1 Pewkie 2019-05-26
You are replying to the wrong person my dude.
Here's your amiretarded.gif
1 b-haze 2019-05-26
Fuck guess my mother shouldnt have been drinking while pregnant
1 Vurtizontal 2019-05-26
What's your degree on? Computer stuff or did you just end up in the biz by chance.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
I have two degrees. One in Arts and one in Science. I also have like 2 graduate diploma and 1 post graduate diploma in CS. I’m your regular Asian overachiever. This is considered “not enough” on Asian standards because I don’t have a masters 😭
1 Vurtizontal 2019-05-26
That's ok, i knew a cute asian girl who waa crying once because she only got an A and not an A+ and that her mom was gonna give her the silent treatment all week for it.
I wonder where she is right now, i hope she's happy. Fuck i miss my youth, should have been less of a sperg. I only have one degree is regular bussiness shit and i regret it cause it taught me nothing. Fucking college, 4 years and all i learned is that most degrees are shit.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
Dude, you sound like a mess.
1 Vurtizontal 2019-05-26
It is, what it is baby. It is, what it is.
1 Redactor0 2019-05-26
There was definitely a problem when all the dotcom boom frontend tard children flooded into the labor force starting around the late 1990s. There were literal boomers with decades of experience who knew how to get shit done in ways that were simple and cost-effective and they get swamped by a bunch of children who wanted to reinvent the wheel. A lot of my boomer-posting shtick is inspired by this.
I think the most damning thing I ever heard was some geezer telling me about how in the early 1980s on dumb terminals he could put up a form more sophisticated than he could through web services in the 2000s. You really need to reevaluate your life when the frontend guys from back then who didn't even have a fucking computer to work with are outperforming you.
1 watermark002 2019-05-26
Web services are online and can be accessed with a simple browser. It doesn't mattee if you could hack together a hideous barely functional dos form with more technical features faster, what are you going to do, go to every single client's computer and install the program. Also did this program when interface with a database to store the information, or did it just print it out on paper like a dumbass?
1 Redactor0 2019-05-26
Obviously we don't have to pay $30,000 for a terminal anymore. The point is that if we can have better hardware for $500 it ought to do at least as much for us.
I specified that it was a dumb terminal already. You utter fucking retard, I know this is a troll account but at least try harder.
Yeah, they actually had computers and shit in the '80s. Don't blame me for you being so historically illiterate that you think punched cards were still predominant then. Also ask your mom if she'll fuck me since she's obviously pretty young if she gave birth to you. Thx.
1 watermark002 2019-05-26
I actually like front end and back end about equally and am skilled in both. I almost always wind up doing back end though because there tends to be more demand in that direction.
HTML and markuo tends to be pretty straightforward... your just describing what elements are going to be in the page and their general order. CSS is where the real wizardry comes into play. I'm like super proud of the beautiful flat design tables I designed to hold boring accounting data on a web site that otherwise barely looks better than geocities. Unfortunately while I am good with color and aesthetics, I am not so good with at usability.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
It’s because frontend is considered a “wamen field”. Therefore, brogrammers assume it is easy. Frontend is also more than just HTML and CSS. A lot of business logic is handled by JS nowadays. Look at all the “big” websites, they either use Vue or React. A lot of heavy loading is done by frontend. They don’t pass things over to backend unnecessarily. Even in frontend, my approach is to resolve as much as I can in CSS. I don’t put in unnecessary JavaScript and bloat up the file size. With things like webpack you can even load the css, js and even images that are ONLY needed for the current page the user is viewing. This allows the loading speed to be ultra fast. That blew my mind when I first switched to webpack. I’m gonna say it again. Backend people are snoozing on all this.
That’s why I refuse to use 4chan. Its frontend is pure crap. I didn’t even use Reddit before I discovered the existence of unofficial apps. For a lot of users, what they see and the user experience are very important.
1 watermark002 2019-05-26
Pardon me but I wouldn't assume it's safe to rely on Javascript for business logic. That runs on the user's machine and they can modify it, thus breaking your rules. It's fine to validate with Javascript on the user side, you can be quicker and more responsive that way. But in the end the server should have the final say, I wouldn't just trust the data I get from operations performed in Javascript.
1 HardIsLife 2019-05-26
Depends on the business logic. Why do you think all of them involve passing sensitive data? For example, if you’re on an e-commerce site, a lot of the things you do like browsing, putting in the cart, customized experience, etc, don’t really need backend except for requesting data from the backend now and again. Only when the users decided to checkout or fill some form, frontend validation is not enough but not every single step of the user experience requires data to be validated.
1 shitpersonality 2019-05-26
Idris Elba only fucks full stack developers. Its 's over for halfstacklets.
1 sukhoisu30 2019-05-26
Its not a programming language.
1 Pewkie 2019-05-26
Frist of all, how DARE yo u.
1 battlemoid 2019-05-26
WRONG. Here's a video of a smart person saying you're wrong. Also it has "LANGUAGE" in its name. So you're wrong.
1 bleached_ammonia 2019-05-26
dae arrays start at 0.
1 DuckSosu 2019-05-26
lmao at all the nerds all over reddit that take such pride in being computer jannies. The worst ones are those who just aspire to it, but haven't finished school yet.
1 Chelseaqix 2019-05-26
HTML is a markup language. It’s not a debate. /thread
1 Literally_Stop 2019-05-26
Well no shit sherlock, it's only in the name after all
1 MooseHeckler 2019-05-26
Oh its programming, programmer humor doesn't think it is the truth and word.
1 HodorTheDoorHolder_ 2019-05-26
I type in Visual Basic. Get at me.
1 watermark002 2019-05-26
Visual Basic .NET is basically a really hideous form of c#. The core syntax trees for the languages are basically identical.
1 HodorTheDoorHolder_ 2019-05-26
I was joking