Where did I mention anything about Africans and where did the person I responded to? The context of the comment I responded to is women in general. I know you poorcels all went to public school where reading comprehension is limited to getting the instructions on a Hungry Man dinner right so I'll forgive you just this once. Just remember next time to take a second to read, re-read, and re-read once more before you comment so that you don't get so emotional and out yourself as a toothless trailer park inhabitant with a meth addiction and a belly full of squirrel meat quesadillas.
Lmao obviously I meant in my original comment. Again, think, read, re-read, then speak. Actually next time, don't speak. I don't associate with poors or the uneducated.
I’m sorry but aren’t they born females? I understand the testosterone limit for t-women but if you’re born a woman and happen to have higher than normal testosterone then that should be an advantage in the Olympics. Do they disqualify men if they have naturally higher than average testosterone too?
It's funny how basically nobody reports that, so most people are confused and genuinely think that they are unusually high-t but otherwise normal women.
As I said, it's because of something that can only be called a misinformation campaign in the mass media that consistently neglects to mention that the testosterone regulations specifically apply only to XY intersex women.
The DSD covered by the Regulations are limited to athletes with “46 XY DSD” – i.e.
conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes. Accordingly, individuals with XX
chromosomes are not subject to any restrictions or eligibility conditions under the DSD Regulations.
I don't know if it's actually coordinated or if wokies can do this telepathically, but that's how it is.
The answer is easy, either create a 3rd division for intersex people or compete against men after certain T levels.
Otherwise we can just destroy women’s sports which was already barely taken seriously outside of the Olympics and some parents watching their kids play.
Women’s sports are such a wasteful drag on the economy. The CBOE did a study in 2018 and determined that the money lost propping up women’s sports shaved .5% off the GDP. And that’s just in the states.
Otherwise we can just destroy women’s sports which was already barely taken seriously outside of the Olympics and some parents watching their kids play.
Have women's sports historically been dominated by intersex people? Do all of them have to have genetic testing then? I'd assume most of them have a gussy.
False. Intersex women have been competing for years and all female athletes had to undergo mandatory sex verification from the 1950s to 1992. After 1992, it only became mandatory if you out performed by too much or broke records people didn't want you to (or didn't think you should have been able to) break.
The majority of intersex athletes did not/do not know that they are intersex until they are mandated to have testing done on them.
For example: Dutee Chand - 2014: in preparing to compete for her first international event, she was summond for sex testing by the IAAF and then determined to have too high of testosterone levels. This was the first time she had ever known she was biologically different than every other female. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.html --- there are cases exactly like this that date back to 1932 (also mentioned in the article)
Another source providing that intersex athletes aren't a new thing and that regulators have been doing this type of thing for yearssss but nobody gave a shit till recently: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2500237/
That's an interesting question actually! I guess it's actually at the bifurcation point, where on one hand you have intersex people like Semenya (can't make this shit up btw) at 1/10,000, on the other hand the exponential nature of the bell curve https://putanumonit.com/2015/11/10/003-soccer1/, and they mostly balance out between each other so that we can go from no intersex to intersex taking all medals due to more or less random fluctuations.
Or maybe not so random, if somewhat suddenly 1 billion or more Africans getting on the fun basically doubled the number of people involved and tipped the scales somehow.
A million years ago I was once taught that most WNBA players had 47XXX karyotypes. I do not know if that's still canon, I think you'd get crucified for investigating.
Your comment has been removed because it contained a bad word. The word was trans. If you intend to use this word in a purely demonstrative manner, please use the first letter of the word followed by '-word' or '-slur'. Thank you for helping us keep /r/drama safe.
This whole post is about women who have XY chromosomes. We can keep coming up with new definitions to handle the edge cases as they appear but that only illustrates that we’re trying to fit the natural world into boxes that it doesn’t care about abiding by. It serves utility purposes, but our definitions of things are fundamentally arbitrary. Even the concept of a distinct “species” is fundamentally arbitrary. Arbitrary as in ultimately being a human judgment rather than a cosmic truth.
You’re not going to get legitimate discourse here. This is a place where people hide ignorance behind the guise of trolling. Expressing idiocy by feigning the feigning of it.
Right, they don’t know any better because they’re literal children. You’re the one asserting that this somehow makes them a source of truth on complex topics.
Being purposely obtuse isn't an attractive quality, sweaty. Little kids tell you the emperor has no clothes because they don't know they're not supposed to point out the obvious thing everyone else can see but won't admit because they don't want to deal with the social fallout. Anyone who says shit like "feminine penis" is an idiot and should be institutionalized for the safety of themselves and others.
Bitch, girldick is an inherent part of this conversation. I'm sorry that pointing out that you're such an r-slur that even moronic crotch goblins can see that you're full of shit triggers you. Maybe you can tell yourself that being an idiot is a social construct and you're not actually as stupid as everyone says you are. That children aren't authorities on anything is kind of the point, you m0ng. They're complete idiots who are mostly ignorant of anything yet they still manage to accurately describe what they see with no filter or even any notion that they should have a filter. There's a reason the phrase "from the mouth of babes" exists.
I’m glad you recognize that children are idiots and therefore unable to provide valuable insight into this issue.
We’re getting somewhere. I can tell you’re really hot and bothered by this conversation, we can pick it up another time if you need to cool down. You’ll get there don’t worry.
The saddest part of this comment is how obvious it is that you either weren't properly educated and socialized by your parents or that your parents were also r-slurs and merely taught you how to be an r-slur and socialized you to behave like one.
Of course they're created, and man-made at that, but we're not talking about how we define things so much as we are talking about how some people choose to ignore the definitions to which everyone else has agreed and insist that we agree to their redefinition of terms. We're also talking about empiricism and reason, and how things can be objectively measured, while those like yourself reject the idea that anything can be quantified so long as they toss the label "social construct" at it.
There may not be a cosmic truth, but most of the endeavors that have advanced humanity to its current pinnacle of achievement have been based on a pursuit of discovering if there is a cosmic truth, and if so what that truth is. That pursuit has traditionally been advanced by the use of objective observations and testing. That pursuit has been hindered in the past by dogma, like "the sun revolves around the Earth" or "gender is a social construct," and those who think nothing has any meaning other than the one they choose to give it.
If society had been left in the hands of inferior specimens such as yourself we'd still be living in caves and wiping our asses with our hands. Though I'm sure that you'll tell me that using bidets or toilet paper is a social construct and that you proudly finger your own shit off your asshole.
Of course they're created, and man-made at that, but we're not talking about how we define things so much as we are talking about how some people choose to ignore the definitions to which everyone else has agreed and insist that we agree to their redefinition of terms.
vs
Man all this nonsense could be avoided if everyone called everyone what they are not this social construct bullshit
Maybe you forgot why this subthread even started.
We're also talking about empiricism and reason, and how things can be objectively measured, while those like yourself reject the idea that anything can be quantified so long as they toss the label "social construct" at it.
We can quantify things according to our own terms, and they can be very consistent within our senses and ontology. This perfectly coincides with the analysis that concepts like "man" and "woman" as we understand them are socially constructed. It is a strawman to say that I'm rejecting the notion that anything can be usefully quantified.
There may not be a cosmic truth, but most of the endeavors that have advanced humanity to its current pinnacle of achievement have been based on a pursuit of discovering if there is a cosmic truth, and if so what that truth is. That pursuit has been hindered in the past by dogma, like "the sun revolves around the Earth" or "gender is a social construct," and those who think nothing has any meaning other than the one they choose to give it.
Hahaha you dumb fuck. You've already contradicted yourself, and within the span of one comment too.
You: Of course they're created, and man-made at that
Also you: That pursuit has been hindered in the past by dogma, like "the sun revolves around the Earth" or "gender is a social construct," and those who think nothing has any meaning other than the one they choose to give it.
The concepts of man and woman being created / man-made literally means that they are social constructs.
I'd tell you to take your own advice but it's pretty obvious the only thing you're ever going to fuck is your own knuckles, so it's sort of a moot point, Stinky Fingers.
Female because their genitals appeared that way at birth. I know Semenya has no uterus or ovaries, but does have undescended testicles, which are responsible for the high T. The other intersex female competitors probably have the same arrangement down there if their T is so high.
I think that you're full of shit, and I put it in the most polite way possible, because obviously we don't know what the "Caster's condition" is. Because obviously it would be straight up illegal to release her private medical information, which is why IAAF does this careful dance with "the regulations only apply to XY persons and don't apply to XX persons" and "the regulations apply to Caster Semenya", but you have to add 2 and 2 yourself.
So she could have a vagina for all we know, and that "some people" with XY chromosomes but intersex in some sense have fathered children tells us pretty much nothing about her. And everyone claiming to have more information about her condition is full of shit unless they can provide her own interviews where she released it.
Though idk about having a proper vagina, I thought that it involves testicle skin as a homologous tissue? I'm not a vagina and testicle scientist.
It sounds like you've never heard of five ARD or Guevedoces.
But also
' In its decision it also said that 46 XY 5-ARD (5-alpha-reductase deficiency) athletes – such as Semenya – have “circulating testosterone at the level of the male 46 XY population and not at the level of the female 46 XX population. This gives 46 XY 5-ARD athletes a significant sporting advantage over 46 XX female athletes.”
Go yell at the guardian for misreporting apparently..
At this point how is that any different then guys like Phelps having hyper extended joints giving him an advantage over people with normal bodies. It’s not like a train beating up women in wrestling since this person was lead to believe they’re a woman since birth
The difference is between having like a 20% advantage and having like a 5000% advantage at the tail of the distribution. Categories are made up but oftentimes they capture the actual differences.
By the way, did you know that like 90% of men have a stronger grip than 90% of women? That's not even going into the 500x amplified differences at the "US Olympic team" level.
Biological advantages are the crux of all Olympic athletes. I believe Phelps’ legs and the Olympic marathon winner legs were the same length despite Phelps being like 8 inches taller than him. It’s hard to say where you draw the line, like should some runners who are born with insane VO2 maxes be disqualified?
The only reason this is being discussed is because there's a category delineation between men and women. Having insane VO2 maxes or weird legs doesn't put you near a separate clearly defined competitive category.
People don't want to believe it because "anyone can do anything" but people in the top .01% of anything all have a biological advantage over the average person.
Yeah, back when I was teaching our school had a motivational visit from Fran Williamson, paralympian swimmer. She had plenty to say about her will to win and so on, and good for her, but rather glossed over how rare it is for people who are terrified of swimming to give it a go at age 13 and find out they're competition standard in a matter of months.
Weak argument at best. This is a biological mutation that gave an advantage/made him a freak. If you're going to say man/intersex = biological advantage then the entire woman's bracket should be removed because they're inferior physically.
They all have have 46xy dsd, they are all males with an intersex condition but would have been assigned female at birth. This ruling only affects xy athletes.
I weary of this moronic Nuevo Attardé phrasing. No one was "assigned" anything. They presented as female at birth and were therefore determined to be a female. No one is "assigning" anything, as if it's some arbitrary designation, they're simply recording what can be easily observed. If you hang out with your wang out when you drop from the womb they observe and record that you're male. If you have hole made for a pole when your momma births you they observe and record that you're female. Stop trying to overcomplicate things that are even simpler than you are. No one is "assigned" white at birth, their mayo status is obvious and documented as such. In much the same way you were born an r-slur, no one had to assign r-slurdation to you, they merely had to observe your r-slurdation and record it.
If it were a standard phrase my sloppy old ass would have heard it before we switched from Anno Domini to Current Year, and I can assure you that even while taking biology and anatomy in college "assigned <gender>" was never mentioned, even when discussing genetic disorders that affected the XX/XY chromosomes. Don't try to pull some "it's always been this way" 1984 four fingers bullshit on me and expect me to fall for it.
If you want 'nice' you're on the wrong playground. We call each other r-slurs in here all the time, because we're a bunch of r-slurs. Sadly, it looks like jokingly calling you an r-slur stopped being funny when it became apparent you actually have Downs. I am disappoint. Do better, sweaty.
This isn't a new thing in female sports. They have a long history of disqualifying genetically born women (in some cases, the female athletes were permanently ban from every competing professionally in their sport) for having testosterone levels above the allotted levels (ie hyperandrogenism). It should be specifically noted that these women who received disqualifications and bans for this, were not using any performance drugs (ie steroids, testosterone injections, etc). They biological just had higher levels.
People with this condition (typically genetically born females) have been referred to as "Intersex Athletes" for years. Sex verification in sports also only happens to female athletes because people thought they were men in disguise due to them performing so well and breaking records by a few seconds.
The IAAF started requiring mandatory sex testing for women in the 1950s and didn't stop requiring it until 1992. After 1992, it was required only if you over performed/broke records that people didn't want you to break, then you were subject to inspection. So this isn't new. It's just that nobody gave a shit or considered it major news until it became about M to F athletes wanting to be allowed into women's sports and then the IAAF started changing the rules in 2015 so m to f athletes could compete.
Prior to 2015, there were 17 documented, hugh performing female athletes who were disqualified, banned, accused of cheating/doping and yet, nobody gave a shit about them. Some female athletes who were intersex went as far as genital mutilation/sterilization/surgery to try and fix what was causing their elevated testosterone. Again, nobody gave a shit about them or considered this to be a problem.
So yeah, it's a bunch of bullshit. This is why people get upset about the rules being easily changed once m to f athletes wanted to complete more and why it's such a big issue that genetically born females are still getting thrown out of their sports for something they have zero control over (and usual no knowledge of until the committees call them out and demand testing done on them).
Sex verification in sports (also known as gender verification, or loosely as gender determination or a sex test) occurs because eligibility of athletes to compete is restricted (in theory) whenever sporting events are limited to a single sex, which is generally the case, as well as when events are limited to mixed-sex teams of defined composition (e. g. , most pairs events). Practice has varied tremendously over time, across borders and by competitive level.
The serum testosterone limit for competing as a woman is about 280 ng/dl. among women, maybe 1 in 100,000 have serum testosterone levels of 70 ng/dl or above. 280 is very, very lax. At any given point in time there is maybe a single biological woman on the planet that exceeds this limit, and probably not even that.
I don't know about everyone of them but most of the time its not that they just "happened" to have high T levels
Its mostly people like caster semenya who are intersex XY people that are ASSIGNED female at birth but are effectively biologically male for a big part which includes high T levels among others
Some of them like Caster Semenya are women with testicles. Usually they get them removed early in life as they become cancerous nearly 100% of the time, but keeping them gives a sporting advantage so some keep them until their sporting careers are over.
This is supposed to be a demonstration of what the biggest genetic freaks can do, where does having unnaturally high T not fit into this? Whats even the point of watching the olympics if they are going to arbitrarily eliminate people who have an unnatural advantage.
Might as well just watch a middle school track meet.
The ammount of misinformation that twitter spreads is terrifying. These arent cis women. And theyre not out cause they look like dudes, theyre out cause of high testosterone.
Your comment has been removed because it contained a bad word. The word was trans. If you intend to use this word in a purely demonstrative manner, please use the first letter of the word followed by '-word' or '-slur'. Thank you for helping us keep /r/drama safe.
I’m a little confused on this. Is this a case of rail misclassification ( a standard gauge train attempting to operate on Leipzig Gauge track for example) or a non regulation gauge measurement for an otherwise correctly gauged locomotive?
171 comments
250 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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50 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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30 UncleTedsBackup 2021-07-02
Woman is woman.
7 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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13 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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5 ShitTornadoToOz 2021-07-02
Where did I mention anything about Africans and where did the person I responded to? The context of the comment I responded to is women in general. I know you poorcels all went to public school where reading comprehension is limited to getting the instructions on a Hungry Man dinner right so I'll forgive you just this once. Just remember next time to take a second to read, re-read, and re-read once more before you comment so that you don't get so emotional and out yourself as a toothless trailer park inhabitant with a meth addiction and a belly full of squirrel meat quesadillas.
4 idio3 2021-07-02
Right here:
2 ShitTornadoToOz 2021-07-02
Lmao obviously I meant in my original comment. Again, think, read, re-read, then speak. Actually next time, don't speak. I don't associate with poors or the uneducated.
3 idio3 2021-07-02
Your definition of obvious is not very clear, mate.
5 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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1 idio3 2021-07-02
4 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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1 InnerBlackberry6 2021-07-02
I mean they kinda are....
Also, was your comment supposed to be woke or did it become accidentally woke?
8 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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2 Big_Daymo 2021-07-02
Lizzo exists, checkmate l*beral
5 mygoodpostingalt 2021-07-02
lizzo is appropriated african
4 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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3 brinkworthspoon 2021-07-02
Hell hath no fury like a soccer mom scorned, I guess.
20 Strypsex 2021-07-02
You don't think the testosterone limit is applied to trains people?
38 lolcows65 2021-07-02
Yeah? thats the justification for letting them compete as women.
1 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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2 Leandover 2021-07-02
they have testes tho
184 HodorTheDoorHolder__ 2021-07-02
I’m sorry but aren’t they born females? I understand the testosterone limit for t-women but if you’re born a woman and happen to have higher than normal testosterone then that should be an advantage in the Olympics. Do they disqualify men if they have naturally higher than average testosterone too?
257 lolcows65 2021-07-02
Its because sex at birth doesn't determine if you are a women sweaty.
52 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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51 Islam_Was_Right 2021-07-02
All women being glowies explains so much
2 kerys2 2021-07-02
i thought it was women glisten
17 GARGANTUAN_ANUS 2021-07-02
Here's your Woman Test, good luck!
6 CertifiedSheep 2021-07-02
Fuck I didn’t study
185 ArachnoLibrarian 2021-07-02
Yeah, they all are XY people and they absolutely dominate women's running https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_2016_Summer_Olympics_%E2%80%93_Women's_800_metres#Testosterone
It's funny how basically nobody reports that, so most people are confused and genuinely think that they are unusually high-t but otherwise normal women.
92 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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166 ArachnoLibrarian 2021-07-02
As I said, it's because of something that can only be called a misinformation campaign in the mass media that consistently neglects to mention that the testosterone regulations specifically apply only to XY intersex women.
https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_Semenya_ASA_IAAF_decision.pdf
I don't know if it's actually coordinated or if wokies can do this telepathically, but that's how it is.
98 thenortheastface 2021-07-02
This is all so tiresome.
31 kyle_schwartz_ 2021-07-02
The answer is easy, either create a 3rd division for intersex people or compete against men after certain T levels.
Otherwise we can just destroy women’s sports which was already barely taken seriously outside of the Olympics and some parents watching their kids play.
20 duckman23 2021-07-02
Women’s sports are such a wasteful drag on the economy. The CBOE did a study in 2018 and determined that the money lost propping up women’s sports shaved .5% off the GDP. And that’s just in the states.
10 SPY400 2021-07-02
Link?
8 kyle_schwartz_ 2021-07-02
Thats why I love the CBOE. One of the few organizations that is honest about spending in gov.
5 leva549 2021-07-02
That seems interesting got a link?
7 I_Shah 2021-07-02
CBOE as in the Chicago Board of Options Exchange? And the concluded that gussy sports has a $100B drag on the economy? Definitely need a link
3 duckman23 2021-07-02
Weird territory for them wade into I agree but drama works in mysterious ways.
2 PC__LOAD__LETTER 2021-07-02
Oh no, think of the economic efficiency!!1!1
1 ooklynbrooklyn 2021-07-02
That can't possibly be true, but I'm willing to believe it
9 haagendaas 2021-07-02
Wouldn’t mind.
10 kyle_schwartz_ 2021-07-02
Eh, let the girls have their fun. No one (as of yet) is forcing it on us. The TV networks know whats what. And Ad spending keeps things honest.
7 I_Shah 2021-07-02
Keep beach volleyball and boxing though
-1 PC__LOAD__LETTER 2021-07-02
Curious how you think this is destroying anything. It’s bringing press and attention. The lack thereof was kind of the issue.
5 singlamoa 2021-07-02
drama then: fuck gussy fuck mayo all my nwords hate women i like big trap ass
nu-drama now: trains in my womyn-sports? so tiresome...
1 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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57 AugustinesBitchBoy 2021-07-02
Have women's sports historically been dominated by intersex people? Do all of them have to have genetic testing then? I'd assume most of them have a gussy.
47 pearlsandplumes 2021-07-02
Semenya opened the door, the regulators didn't react for the longest time, which then incentivised other intersex women to compete.
23 AstonishingTip 2021-07-02
False. Intersex women have been competing for years and all female athletes had to undergo mandatory sex verification from the 1950s to 1992. After 1992, it only became mandatory if you out performed by too much or broke records people didn't want you to (or didn't think you should have been able to) break.
The majority of intersex athletes did not/do not know that they are intersex until they are mandated to have testing done on them.
For example: Dutee Chand - 2014: in preparing to compete for her first international event, she was summond for sex testing by the IAAF and then determined to have too high of testosterone levels. This was the first time she had ever known she was biologically different than every other female. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.html --- there are cases exactly like this that date back to 1932 (also mentioned in the article)
Another source providing that intersex athletes aren't a new thing and that regulators have been doing this type of thing for yearssss but nobody gave a shit till recently: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2500237/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports
28 ArachnoLibrarian 2021-07-02
That's an interesting question actually! I guess it's actually at the bifurcation point, where on one hand you have intersex people like Semenya (can't make this shit up btw) at 1/10,000, on the other hand the exponential nature of the bell curve https://putanumonit.com/2015/11/10/003-soccer1/, and they mostly balance out between each other so that we can go from no intersex to intersex taking all medals due to more or less random fluctuations.
Or maybe not so random, if somewhat suddenly 1 billion or more Africans getting on the fun basically doubled the number of people involved and tipped the scales somehow.
I don't know!
10 HP_civ 2021-07-02
Thanks for the link lol, that was so interesting I had to make this soy ass comment
6 YourGreatDarshFace 2021-07-02
It's better than that. "Caster Semenya" is an anagram of "yes a secret man"
6 ooklynbrooklyn 2021-07-02
A million years ago I was once taught that most WNBA players had 47XXX karyotypes. I do not know if that's still canon, I think you'd get crucified for investigating.
1 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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1 AutoModerator 2021-07-02
Your comment has been removed because it contained a bad word. The word was
trans. If you intend to use this word in a purely demonstrative manner, please use the first letter of the word followed by '-word' or '-slur'. Thank you for helping us keep /r/drama safe.I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
30 HAthrowaway50 2021-07-02
I mean cuz they are
They just happen to also be biomen.
Which is kinda why "bio" anything is sort of a bad way to look at it
37 HodorTheDoorHolder__ 2021-07-02
Is the Olympics helping or hurting the argument that gender ain’t nothin’ but a number?
23 HAthrowaway50 2021-07-02
Yes
25 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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-18 CrazyPurpleBacon 2021-07-02
Social constructs are what cause you to determine what someone “is”. There is no objective definition outside of the mind.
17 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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1 CrazyPurpleBacon 2021-07-02
This whole post is about women who have XY chromosomes. We can keep coming up with new definitions to handle the edge cases as they appear but that only illustrates that we’re trying to fit the natural world into boxes that it doesn’t care about abiding by. It serves utility purposes, but our definitions of things are fundamentally arbitrary. Even the concept of a distinct “species” is fundamentally arbitrary. Arbitrary as in ultimately being a human judgment rather than a cosmic truth.
9 PC__LOAD__LETTER 2021-07-02
You’re not going to get legitimate discourse here. This is a place where people hide ignorance behind the guise of trolling. Expressing idiocy by feigning the feigning of it.
5 Funkyduffy 2021-07-02
tips fedora
1 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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3 jubbergun 2021-07-02
Even little kids know that's not true.
5 PC__LOAD__LETTER 2021-07-02
Ah yes, children, the ultimate source of truth.
0 jubbergun 2021-07-02
Little kids are fucking brutal and say the quiet shit out loud because they don't know any better.
1 PC__LOAD__LETTER 2021-07-02
Right, they don’t know any better because they’re literal children. You’re the one asserting that this somehow makes them a source of truth on complex topics.
-1 jubbergun 2021-07-02
Being purposely obtuse isn't an attractive quality, sweaty. Little kids tell you the emperor has no clothes because they don't know they're not supposed to point out the obvious thing everyone else can see but won't admit because they don't want to deal with the social fallout. Anyone who says shit like "feminine penis" is an idiot and should be institutionalized for the safety of themselves and others.
2 PC__LOAD__LETTER 2021-07-02
Why are you suddenly brining “feminine penis” into the conversation? Keep your fixations to yourself.
Children are just point blank not authorities in this domain. Cry as hard as you want about it.
1 jubbergun 2021-07-02
Bitch, girldick is an inherent part of this conversation. I'm sorry that pointing out that you're such an r-slur that even moronic crotch goblins can see that you're full of shit triggers you. Maybe you can tell yourself that being an idiot is a social construct and you're not actually as stupid as everyone says you are. That children aren't authorities on anything is kind of the point, you m0ng. They're complete idiots who are mostly ignorant of anything yet they still manage to accurately describe what they see with no filter or even any notion that they should have a filter. There's a reason the phrase "from the mouth of babes" exists.
2 PC__LOAD__LETTER 2021-07-02
I’m glad you recognize that children are idiots and therefore unable to provide valuable insight into this issue.
We’re getting somewhere. I can tell you’re really hot and bothered by this conversation, we can pick it up another time if you need to cool down. You’ll get there don’t worry.
1 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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3 CrazyPurpleBacon 2021-07-02
Your example is kids, who learn everything from their parents and socialization even more than the average adult? Lmao.
11 jubbergun 2021-07-02
The saddest part of this comment is how obvious it is that you either weren't properly educated and socialized by your parents or that your parents were also r-slurs and merely taught you how to be an r-slur and socialized you to behave like one.
6 CrazyPurpleBacon 2021-07-02
Imagine thinking definitions are discovered rather than created. Jesus christ so many people are just stupid.
Buddy, human concepts are exactly that: human. Not cosmic truth.
5 jubbergun 2021-07-02
Of course they're created, and man-made at that, but we're not talking about how we define things so much as we are talking about how some people choose to ignore the definitions to which everyone else has agreed and insist that we agree to their redefinition of terms. We're also talking about empiricism and reason, and how things can be objectively measured, while those like yourself reject the idea that anything can be quantified so long as they toss the label "social construct" at it.
There may not be a cosmic truth, but most of the endeavors that have advanced humanity to its current pinnacle of achievement have been based on a pursuit of discovering if there is a cosmic truth, and if so what that truth is. That pursuit has traditionally been advanced by the use of objective observations and testing. That pursuit has been hindered in the past by dogma, like "the sun revolves around the Earth" or "gender is a social construct," and those who think nothing has any meaning other than the one they choose to give it.
If society had been left in the hands of inferior specimens such as yourself we'd still be living in caves and wiping our asses with our hands. Though I'm sure that you'll tell me that using bidets or toilet paper is a social construct and that you proudly finger your own shit off your asshole.
0 CrazyPurpleBacon 2021-07-02
vs
Maybe you forgot why this subthread even started.
We can quantify things according to our own terms, and they can be very consistent within our senses and ontology. This perfectly coincides with the analysis that concepts like "man" and "woman" as we understand them are socially constructed. It is a strawman to say that I'm rejecting the notion that anything can be usefully quantified.
Hahaha you dumb fuck. You've already contradicted yourself, and within the span of one comment too.
You: Of course they're created, and man-made at that
Also you: That pursuit has been hindered in the past by dogma, like "the sun revolves around the Earth" or "gender is a social construct," and those who think nothing has any meaning other than the one they choose to give it.
The concepts of man and woman being created / man-made literally means that they are social constructs.
Don't procreate.
1 jubbergun 2021-07-02
I'd tell you to take your own advice but it's pretty obvious the only thing you're ever going to fuck is your own knuckles, so it's sort of a moot point, Stinky Fingers.
1 CrazyPurpleBacon 2021-07-02
Good one, dumb fuck. It's been fun slapping you around.
1 jubbergun 2021-07-02
It's cute that you'd invoke Danth's Law. Maybe if your mom had stayed sober while she was pregnant you wouldn't have such severe mental defects.
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1 bildramer 2021-07-02
Are differences between species discovered or created? Surely you can tell that some things are in the territory, not in the map.
1 CrazyPurpleBacon 2021-07-02
Nature is not inherently categorized and distinguished. It’s all matter jumbling around together. We are the ones who draw the lines we see.
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17 racistsex 2021-07-02
Wait so what gender were they assigned at birth?
66 pearlsandplumes 2021-07-02
Female because their genitals appeared that way at birth. I know Semenya has no uterus or ovaries, but does have undescended testicles, which are responsible for the high T. The other intersex female competitors probably have the same arrangement down there if their T is so high.
27 racistsex 2021-07-02
Woah so like futanari in real life
47 UncleTedsBackup 2021-07-02
Redditbrain.png
16 Big_Daymo 2021-07-02
This is your brain on reddit
46 The_Dramanomicon 2021-07-02
The irl futas are never as hot as the ones in my fantasies
32 ArachnoLibrarian 2021-07-02
Presumably female but with the amount of bullshit surrounding it, who knows any more.
18 DivingRightIntoWork 2021-07-02
See above, people with casters condition have fathered children
15 ArachnoLibrarian 2021-07-02
I think that you're full of shit, and I put it in the most polite way possible, because obviously we don't know what the "Caster's condition" is. Because obviously it would be straight up illegal to release her private medical information, which is why IAAF does this careful dance with "the regulations only apply to XY persons and don't apply to XX persons" and "the regulations apply to Caster Semenya", but you have to add 2 and 2 yourself.
So she could have a vagina for all we know, and that "some people" with XY chromosomes but intersex in some sense have fathered children tells us pretty much nothing about her. And everyone claiming to have more information about her condition is full of shit unless they can provide her own interviews where she released it.
Though idk about having a proper vagina, I thought that it involves testicle skin as a homologous tissue? I'm not a vagina and testicle scientist.
24 DivingRightIntoWork 2021-07-02
It sounds like you've never heard of five ARD or Guevedoces.
But also
' In its decision it also said that 46 XY 5-ARD (5-alpha-reductase deficiency) athletes – such as Semenya – have “circulating testosterone at the level of the male 46 XY population and not at the level of the female 46 XX population. This gives 46 XY 5-ARD athletes a significant sporting advantage over 46 XX female athletes.”
Go yell at the guardian for misreporting apparently..
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17 jubbergun 2021-07-02
If you had kept your mouth off your specimens you could have finished that degree.
2 PC__LOAD__LETTER 2021-07-02
She has a vagina with no uterus or ovaries. Take it up with nature.
-1 racistsex 2021-07-02
At this point how is that any different then guys like Phelps having hyper extended joints giving him an advantage over people with normal bodies. It’s not like a train beating up women in wrestling since this person was lead to believe they’re a woman since birth
40 ArachnoLibrarian 2021-07-02
The difference is between having like a 20% advantage and having like a 5000% advantage at the tail of the distribution. Categories are made up but oftentimes they capture the actual differences.
By the way, did you know that like 90% of men have a stronger grip than 90% of women? That's not even going into the 500x amplified differences at the "US Olympic team" level.
16 ironicshitpostr 2021-07-02
Grip strength suffrage when
14 DeanofPSU 2021-07-02
Most trains seem to actually believe they are though. Scandalous.
12 DivingRightIntoWork 2021-07-02
People with casters condition have fathered kids for what it's worth.
20 jubbergun 2021-07-02
We're really not interested in your family tree.
56 Mathieu_van_der_Poel 2021-07-02
They’re probably intersex who’ve been raised as women.
34 CellinoKilledBarnes 2021-07-02
Just do away with female divisions at this point
31 alphetaboss 2021-07-02
Shouldn't they also have disqualified Phelps because he had webbed feet?
58 newrimmmer93 2021-07-02
Biological advantages are the crux of all Olympic athletes. I believe Phelps’ legs and the Olympic marathon winner legs were the same length despite Phelps being like 8 inches taller than him. It’s hard to say where you draw the line, like should some runners who are born with insane VO2 maxes be disqualified?
61 AugustinesBitchBoy 2021-07-02
The only reason this is being discussed is because there's a category delineation between men and women. Having insane VO2 maxes or weird legs doesn't put you near a separate clearly defined competitive category.
64 newrimmmer93 2021-07-02
Solution: create a femboy category sponsored by femboy hooters
19 wingrath 2021-07-02
Finally some representation for animesexuals
13 jubbergun 2021-07-02
We need to go private again. The weebs are getting in and leaving stains on the carpet.
14 Zozbot 2021-07-02
zoz
10 Zozbot 2021-07-02
zle
12 Zozbot 2021-07-02
zozzle
13 DeanofPSU 2021-07-02
I think anyone with weird legs and/or a unibrow should be barred from all competitions. CMV.
6 DivingRightIntoWork 2021-07-02
How many categories are in the Olympics? What are those categories based on?
8 DeanofPSU 2021-07-02
$
5 SlimjobDopamine 2021-07-02
People don't want to believe it because "anyone can do anything" but people in the top .01% of anything all have a biological advantage over the average person.
6 YourGreatDarshFace 2021-07-02
Yeah, back when I was teaching our school had a motivational visit from Fran Williamson, paralympian swimmer. She had plenty to say about her will to win and so on, and good for her, but rather glossed over how rare it is for people who are terrified of swimming to give it a go at age 13 and find out they're competition standard in a matter of months.
46 azuredota 2021-07-02
Weak argument at best. This is a biological mutation that gave an advantage/made him a freak. If you're going to say man/intersex = biological advantage then the entire woman's bracket should be removed because they're inferior physically.
22 32624647 2021-07-02
I've got an alternative solution for this that doesn't involve removing anyone from anything, but we're gonna need a lot of pills to make it work.
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14 HodorTheDoorHolder__ 2021-07-02
Exactly
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18 Brite1978 2021-07-02
They all have have 46xy dsd, they are all males with an intersex condition but would have been assigned female at birth. This ruling only affects xy athletes.
32 jubbergun 2021-07-02
I weary of this moronic Nuevo Attardé phrasing. No one was "assigned" anything. They presented as female at birth and were therefore determined to be a female. No one is "assigning" anything, as if it's some arbitrary designation, they're simply recording what can be easily observed. If you hang out with your wang out when you drop from the womb they observe and record that you're male. If you have hole made for a pole when your momma births you they observe and record that you're female. Stop trying to overcomplicate things that are even simpler than you are. No one is "assigned" white at birth, their mayo status is obvious and documented as such. In much the same way you were born an r-slur, no one had to assign r-slurdation to you, they merely had to observe your r-slurdation and record it.
3 Brite1978 2021-07-02
Its a standard phrase used for babies with a dsd and ambiguous genitialia. For everyone else sex is observed. You seem nice.
18 jubbergun 2021-07-02
If it were a standard phrase my sloppy old ass would have heard it before we switched from Anno Domini to Current Year, and I can assure you that even while taking biology and anatomy in college "assigned <gender>" was never mentioned, even when discussing genetic disorders that affected the XX/XY chromosomes. Don't try to pull some "it's always been this way" 1984 four fingers bullshit on me and expect me to fall for it.
If you want 'nice' you're on the wrong playground. We call each other r-slurs in here all the time, because we're a bunch of r-slurs. Sadly, it looks like jokingly calling you an r-slur stopped being funny when it became apparent you actually have Downs. I am disappoint. Do better, sweaty.
7 Brite1978 2021-07-02
Fair enough, i didnt even notice this was r/drama.
9 jubbergun 2021-07-02
Don't feel bad. As I said, we
all floatare all r-slurs down here.0 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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11 AstonishingTip 2021-07-02
This isn't a new thing in female sports. They have a long history of disqualifying genetically born women (in some cases, the female athletes were permanently ban from every competing professionally in their sport) for having testosterone levels above the allotted levels (ie hyperandrogenism). It should be specifically noted that these women who received disqualifications and bans for this, were not using any performance drugs (ie steroids, testosterone injections, etc). They biological just had higher levels.
People with this condition (typically genetically born females) have been referred to as "Intersex Athletes" for years. Sex verification in sports also only happens to female athletes because people thought they were men in disguise due to them performing so well and breaking records by a few seconds.
The IAAF started requiring mandatory sex testing for women in the 1950s and didn't stop requiring it until 1992. After 1992, it was required only if you over performed/broke records that people didn't want you to break, then you were subject to inspection. So this isn't new. It's just that nobody gave a shit or considered it major news until it became about M to F athletes wanting to be allowed into women's sports and then the IAAF started changing the rules in 2015 so m to f athletes could compete.
Prior to 2015, there were 17 documented, hugh performing female athletes who were disqualified, banned, accused of cheating/doping and yet, nobody gave a shit about them. Some female athletes who were intersex went as far as genital mutilation/sterilization/surgery to try and fix what was causing their elevated testosterone. Again, nobody gave a shit about them or considered this to be a problem.
So yeah, it's a bunch of bullshit. This is why people get upset about the rules being easily changed once m to f athletes wanted to complete more and why it's such a big issue that genetically born females are still getting thrown out of their sports for something they have zero control over (and usual no knowledge of until the committees call them out and demand testing done on them).
If you wish to read more about the bullshit and history of this problem, here's a good summary: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports
3 WikiSummarizerBot 2021-07-02
Sex_verification_in_sports
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2 HodorTheDoorHolder__ 2021-07-02
It’s because m2f athletes are mostly all white and these high test women are mostly if not all black. What a hypocritical world we live in.
12 AstonishingTip 2021-07-02
False, of the 17* high testosterone/intersex female athletes I noted (as seen in the wiki linked) Their ethnicities are as follows:
White: 7 Hispanic or Latino: 1 Indian: 4 South African: 1 Unknown Ethnicity From Developing Countries: 4
*= my original comment should have said 17, not 16.
3 HodorTheDoorHolder__ 2021-07-02
Nobody listen to this guy. He's a liar.
7 gurthanix 2021-07-02
The serum testosterone limit for competing as a woman is about 280 ng/dl. among women, maybe 1 in 100,000 have serum testosterone levels of 70 ng/dl or above. 280 is very, very lax. At any given point in time there is maybe a single biological woman on the planet that exceeds this limit, and probably not even that.
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6 Mission-Zebra 2021-07-02
steroids
3 DAEORANGEMANBADDD 2021-07-02
I don't know about everyone of them but most of the time its not that they just "happened" to have high T levels
Its mostly people like caster semenya who are intersex XY people that are ASSIGNED female at birth but are effectively biologically male for a big part which includes high T levels among others
2 ooklynbrooklyn 2021-07-02
Some of them like Caster Semenya are women with testicles. Usually they get them removed early in life as they become cancerous nearly 100% of the time, but keeping them gives a sporting advantage so some keep them until their sporting careers are over.
0 RIPGeorgeHarrison 2021-07-02
This is supposed to be a demonstration of what the biggest genetic freaks can do, where does having unnaturally high T not fit into this? Whats even the point of watching the olympics if they are going to arbitrarily eliminate people who have an unnatural advantage.
Might as well just watch a middle school track meet.
112 Babybear_Dramabear 2021-07-02
Expect drama like this for years to come. We are truly blessed.
52 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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67 SnapshillBot 2021-07-02
The people involved here probably don't even respect bussy all that much.
Snapshots:
I am just a simple bot, not a moderator of this subreddit | bot subreddit | contact the maintainers
55 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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15 SolomonRed 2021-07-02
Sports are pointlessly gendered like all things.
All we need to do is remove gender barriers and let everyone compete together.
This will instantly solve all problems and achieve equality for all.
Thank me later.
42 LeDarkElbow 2021-07-02
The ammount of misinformation that twitter spreads is terrifying. These arent cis women. And theyre not out cause they look like dudes, theyre out cause of high testosterone.
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2 AutoModerator 2021-07-02
Your comment has been removed because it contained a bad word. The word was
trans. If you intend to use this word in a purely demonstrative manner, please use the first letter of the word followed by '-word' or '-slur'. Thank you for helping us keep /r/drama safe.I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
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10 DeanofPSU 2021-07-02
Imagine the Hunger games, except less murder and waaaay more drama. I'd definitely watch that.
21 [deleted] 2021-07-02
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7 Desert_Knight 2021-07-02
LMAAAO
6 Socialarmstrong 2021-07-02
I’m a little confused on this. Is this a case of rail misclassification ( a standard gauge train attempting to operate on Leipzig Gauge track for example) or a non regulation gauge measurement for an otherwise correctly gauged locomotive?
1 DAGOTH_YUR 2021-07-02
The latter.
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