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OBJECTIVE FACT :marseyshesright: Fun fact: God doesn't exist

If Christians really desire to worship someone, maybe a better idea is to worship Taylor Swift, because at least she exists.

:#tayhairflip:

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Since the ancient tribes would not get survival benefits from knowing that the stars they see in the sky are the same as the sun, and they are just much much farther from you, but if they falsely believed that the stars were the eyes of their ancenstors always watching and after death judging them, and this would make them more motivated to choose what's better for their tribe, instead of choosing selfishly when no other alive tribe member is watching, so this makes it a beneficial lie, that increases the evolutionary fitness of their tribe and that's what religion is.

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:#marseyfedoratip:

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you should've replied "see what I mean", would :marseymid: better :marseygenetakovic: fit the theme

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I'm enlightened by my own emojis :marseyweeb:

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Based Quad

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  • QuadNarca : I really want to reply to this, but someone banned me. :marseysad:

Nah that was a reasonable take on it. My question then however is why not extend that logic to current times as well. Surely if it increases populational fitness and in general is of benefit to the group, doesn't it make sense to embrace it?

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I do think people need religion as a source of a cohesive moral foundation, but I also think all the metaphysical claims about God existing and having any influence on the world are false. I think Christianity developed through generations rather than being divinely revealed.

How exactly can I embrace religion and not just be a LARP, when I think the conclusions have some necessary features but the foundation is inaccurate?

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You don't have to be religious to believe in God. Atheism is the idiots position about existence

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That's a nice quippy response, but I don't believe God exists, and I don't just pick and choose what my factual beliefs are.

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You don't believe God exists but you want to become religious? What BIPOC?

As I said atheism is the way an idiot deals with the obvious contradictions in religion. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater though. obviously atheist/scientific/atomistic philosophy and cosmology is completely brain dead. But you also don't have to force or LARP as religious to understand that

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This but unironically because you can see how many atheists embrace the "we live in a simulation" thing.

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Right. It's an interesting idea but ultimately only pushes back the "God question." If we live in a simulation then who created it and for what purpose? Back to square one at the end of the day, it doesn't solve any questions

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whats the point then

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The point? Of what, life?

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Simple answer: other memes (meme as in the original Dawkin's sense) outcompeted the meme of Religion.

One mistaken assumption in your description is how you think of "Population Fitness". You may ascribe to this features like how smart and how strong people are, but it only means how likely people are to reproduce. Thanks to modern technology, people have no trouble living long enough to reproduce. In a sense, Religion is no longer necessary.

Another key idea that you may be missing is that Evolution, as a description of natural selection, does not only apply to biological systems, but is a more general description of complex processes in general.

For example, Culture. (Dawkins)

Chuds allude to this answer frequently, how wokeness is a new de facto religion and a "mind virus".

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Disagree with pretty much everything.

I am very aware that fitness is a measure of reproductive capacity, and similarly if talking about populational fitness, you must be aware that modern technology has tanked it pretty hard, as seen in birth graphs of practically every developed country for a good part of the century, and as such claiming that "modern technology" somehow provides more populational fitness is absurd.

But I don't even believe this is relevant as there is a big assumption you made, which is that "modern technology" is outcompeting religion. I am yet to see a convincing argument that they exist in the same niches and as such are competing with one another for existence. The notion that religion and technological progress cannot coexist is a very recent one, and is provably false by looking at practically any time period before the enlightenment/humanist era which this idea comes from. Religion competes for its niche with other religions. The counterpart to religion is atheism which it competes with as well, rather than technological advancement which is largely independent.

Finally it is worth considering that fitness is not the only metric, as original comment also states that it provides moral foundation which serves well to the population besides just growing it. Providing higher quality of life can be a theoretical example. In this case it would again make sense for people to desire to spread it as it is beneficial for the population in other ways, which they could potentially value even more.

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I am yet to see a convincing argument that they exist in the same niches and as such are competing with one another for existence.

The more we understand the universe, the less there is space for God in it. The vehement opposition of christcucks to evolution is just the most prominent example of it: sure, they can (and some do) say that OK, sure, God just set up the world to eventually produce Man, and also God is about morality, not about cells reproducing and shit, and so on, but the ones that oppose it correctly recognize that as a cope, as one heck of a retreat. But that's just the most prominent example, all scientific explanations literally erase the magic inherent in whatever is being explained. An ancient man felt gratitude to God for the Sun being warm and bright, the modern man is, like, that's just hydrogen fusing into helium, with roughly the same power output per volume as a compost heap, meh.

See also this satire of the cope (in a fictional universe where Christianity is actually true):

Stephen Jay Gould, a biologist working at Harvard University, tried to stabilize the burgeoning philosophical disaster with his theory of “non-overlapping magisteria”. He said that while religion might have access to certain factual truths, like that angels existed or that the souls of the darned spent eternity writhing in a land of fire thousands of miles beneath the Earth, it was powerless to discuss human values and age-old questions like “what is the Good?” or “what is the purpose of my existence?” Atheistic science should be thought of not as a literal attempt to say things like “space is infinite and full of stars” or “humankind evolved from apes” that were now known to be untrue, but as an attempt to record, in the form of stories, our ancestors' answers to those great questions. When a scientist says “space is infinite and full of stars”, she does not literally mean that the crystal sphere surrounding the Earth doesn't exist. She is metaphorically referring to the infinitude of the human spirit, the limitless possibilities it offers, and the brightness and enlightenment waiting to be discovered. Or when a scientist says “humankind evolved from apes”, she is not literally doubting the word of the archangel Uriel that humankind was created ex nihilo on October 13, 3761 BC and evolution added only as part of a later retconning – she is saying that humankind has an animal nature that it has barely transcended and to which it is always at risk of returning. When religious people mocked atheists for supposedly getting their cosmology wrong, they were missing the true grandeur and beauty of atheism, a grandeur which had been passed on undiminished from Democritus to the present day and connected us to the great thinkers of times past.

See also this as the ultimate seethe at the end of rejection of the religious cope (take care though, it's one of the scariest things I've ever read): https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/sYgv4eYH82JEsTD34/beyond-the-reach-of-god . This is how a universe that has no place for God whatsoever looks like. We are heading that way.

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I think I misunderstood your question. I answered "why isn't religion being embraced today" which is simple, it's been outcompeted, as Marx predicted.

You asked "why shouldn't religion be believed/embraced today". Is that a fair interpretation of what you want to discuss?

If so, I think your argument that it improves population fitness or welfare (or whatever metric you want to use) is a poor argument. The germane question is whether you can prove Religion, and that answer is no.

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:#didntreadlol:

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In modern times the only way to do that would be to have a :marsey1984: doublethink system. Like the star thing QuadNarca brought up is literally in the book:

‘But the whole universe is outside us. Look at the stars! Some of them are a million light-years away. They are out of our reach for ever.'

‘What are the stars?' said O'Brien indifferently. ‘They are bits of fire a few kilometres away. We could reach them if we wanted to. Or we could blot them out. The earth is the centre of the universe. The sun and the stars go round it.'

Winston made another convulsive movement. This time he did not say anything. O'Brien continued as though answering a spoken objection:

‘For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?'

You'd basically have to either resign your society to being perpetually medieval, see how well that works for muzzie societies, or just outright lie to your population while only the elites have access to knowledge.


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Doesn't make it true though

@CREAMY_DOG_ORGASM say this as a feminist ally

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nice so ur woke then?

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and even today's societies would benefit from such lies. instead of teaching our dumbest 30% that their ancestors are watching and judging them if they do wrong, "so you better act right", we teach our dumbest 30% to blame white men for all their failings and that nothing they do is ever their own fault, "so you might as well r*pe and cheat, it's whatever"

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Then either the world is completely random, and entirely a coincidence, or there was some form of thought, purpose or design behind the universe that made these laws. Then it becomes the question of: which option is more likely? Is one completely out of the question?

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Neither is out of the question and we currently have no way of knowing which is more likely

@CREAMY_DOG_ORGASM say this as a feminist ally

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Yup, but then there is a lot of historical evidence that Jesus did exist, and that he did perform miracles. Plus you can see evidence too of people living a Christian lifestyle / finding god and making significant improvements to their lives. For me that's enough to believe

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There's no historical evidence that Jesus performed miracles.

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Multiple sources reported the specific time places and people related to the miracles, same as other historical accounts

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Proof?

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Here's an example, a guy named Celsus wrote about the miracles of Jesus but he himself despised Jesus and was trying to convince others to abandon Christianity. So a pretty good source given that even an enemy of Jesus was writing about his deeds. There are others like Jesus in the Talmud etc.

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Absolutely untrue.

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:soycry:

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There is more historical evidence that Jesus performed miracles than there is evidence to the contrary

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and that he did perform miracles.

Lol

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Is that really up for debate?

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>Jesus:

Real

>Jesus:

Based

>Ergo

Christianity is right

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I believe in God in the agnostic sense.

By that I mean God is the mechanics of the universe, not an omnipotant being who exists with the same sense of consciousness we understand.

Because of that, I believe everything happens for a reason (butterfly effect shit).

Anyone who can't understand this or who disagrees with me is dumb/wrong.

:#marseydealwithitsoy:

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"I believe in God, if you use 'God' in a completely wrong and r-slurred way" :tayclap:

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See what I mean?

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What do you think about the belief that men in dresses are women, does that make it a beneficial lie that increases the evolutionary fitness of their tribe?

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Neighbor, who looks at stars and thinks “those look like eyes”?

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This is the height of Christian rhetoric. "I can't disprove any of your points, but they're wrong anyway and also kind of rude and passé so it's a major faux pas to express any of them". This sort of appeal to an imaginary authority is also used by other groups, like the person in the screenshot who's probably a "witch" or neo-Pagan or some shit and therefore even more worthy of contempt than a Christian

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This is a pretty easy online straw man (almost on both sides), there enough evidence to believe IMO from both historical records and from seeing the positive impact Christianity can have on someone's life

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and from seeing the positive impact Christianity can have on someone's life

???

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CONVERT, JEW.

:#soyegirl:

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Lots of people who live in a Christian manner improve their lives and mental wellbeing, and do intense things like significantly change their personality and habits (reformed criminals, drug addicts, etc. )

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How does that prove anything though? There are lots of things that improve life.

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Yeah it's a great point! I wouldn't say it “proves” definitively there is a God, but it does give evidence of the power of being Christian. How do you get someone to give up drugs? Or let go of hate and forgive someone who murdered their loved one? How would you give those people content and peace? There isn't one secular answer for that, but being Christian can help those wide group of people find that peacefulness in their life, and to think all by following the instructions of a book written 2000 years ago. To me, that points to the fact that we are built in a way where Christianity helps us, and if that's true then is that the product of complete chance or someone giving us the cowtools to improve ourselves?

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this gets a lot less mysterious when you consider how many religions there have been

it's not that the one widely believed happened to map well to humanity's well-being, it's that the one that mapped well to humanity's well-being spread more than the ones that didn't

for every christianity there are 2000 "dead animals you find in the woods are a blessing from god" religions that got obliterated because they ate dead animals in the woods and died, or "mutilate your genitals in these seven specific ways' that sucked to be part of and no one would join.

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Very true, there is something about humans that attract us to, and we benefit from religion. So then I think the conversation is shifting from “There is no evidence of God” to “Which religion is right about God?” To me that earlier fact about religion is good evidence

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But is Christianity the only religion that helps people and creates good societies? And micro societies with different cowtools spring up and die all the time- is it surprising that the cowtools that create the most successful societies would naturally tend to win out in the long term?

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I wouldn't say so, there are others with good societies and that help people. But the original question was whether God exists, and I think that the fact that religion is prevalent, and can so powerfully help people is evidence that we were created by God

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See what I mean :chudtantrum::chudtantrum:

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>Good points are actually r-slurred :chudsmug:

>[good point]

>See what I mean? :chudsmug:

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>heres a cliche that no one actually believes

Wow what a GOOD point

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>no one actually believes god exists:chudsmug:

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>the only god possible is a old man sitting on a cloud :marseyamazingatheist:

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>many things are possible :chudsmug:

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:#marseyeyemixer2:

no

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Why are they pointing out the stupid shit I actually believe in?!

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I'm not sure if your being sarcastic or not. :marseyhmm:

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>world heritage post

:m#arseyxdorbit:

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"see what 1 mean" = "1 have no argument"

@CREAMY_DOG_ORGASM say this as a feminist ally

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:tayclap:

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  • QuadNarca : good point, I just wanted to start a new format "fun fact", after the "bait idea" format got stale

:marseysad: That's not a fun fact, it's a sad reminder of the cold, impersonal cruelty of the universe.

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It's more fun this way right !schizomaxxxers !schizos?

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17170181495250564.webp

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I am the Marsey looking at the Monitor.

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17170801843291109.webp :#marseyopera!:

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I miss him :marseysad:

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/17170127974058573.webp

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christians after their daily fellation of a guy who will eternally torture them for putting their peepee in a guy's bum

:#mariogoatse:

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Impersonal Cruelty > Personal Cruelty

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i worship platysfield :#platyanime: !christians !atheists stare at the soren :#soren:

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!downmarseyrs jesussianna cultist DISRESPECT MY PLATYSFIELD LIKE A BICH GET XIS BICHASS!!! :#donkeykongattack: https://i.rdrama.net/images/17170164006581376.webp

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:#quadnarcachad:

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!atheists come here and laugh at the triggered christcucks. :marseyemojirofl:

>God's real because... Because he just is ok! :chudseethe:

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