Top Poster of the Day:
MWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWM
Current Registered Users: 25,445
BROWSE EFFORTPOSTS SITE GUIDE DIRECTORY Emojis & Art | Info Megathreads HOLES PING GROUPSCURRENT EVENTS:
Find Rightoid Drama
500 mbux per post, no limit/h/kappa Monthly Tournament
fighting vidya - Soku 12.3 | 10k+ prize pool | April 27thDrama: any incident, scene, gaffe, rumor, opinion, or disagreement that is blown entirely out of proportion.
Do your part to keep our community healthy by blowing everything out of proportion and making literally everything as dramatic as possible.
Rules:
- Asking to see who saved comments/posts=1 day ban
- You must be 18 or older to view this site.
- NO RIGHTWING AGENDAPOSTING.
- Discord users will be banned on sight.
- Don't post anything illegal.
- No sexualizing minors, even as a joke. This includes cartoons.
- No doxxing.
- Using alts to game dramacoin will get you banned.
- Supporting free speech is an immediate ban.
- Absolutely NO anti-CCP sentiment.
- Absolutely NO homophobia, transphobia or furphobia.
- Absolutely NO misgendering.
- Absolutely NO antisemitism.
- Absolutely NO vaccine misinformation.
- You are encouraged to post drama you are involved in.
- You are encouraged to brigade in bad faith.
- You are encouraged to gaslight, to gatekeep, above all else, to girlboss.
- Participation implies enthusiastic consent to being mod abused by unstable alcoholic bullies.
Related subreddits:
πππ«π© π°π¨π³ ππ«π
Live commit: 9585de6
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Maybe those mayos complaining about colonialism were right
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Edit: This claim has been debooonked by @Avalon (((independent factchecker))). Please see below, Coomlumbus remains based.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
This is such a weird way of framing it. It's not Columbus celebrating it but complaining about the colonists he left there when he was recalled to Spain and posted back 2 years later and their excesses. https://www.americanjourneys.org/AJ_PDF/AJ-067.pdf page 378 exactly. @Szia_uram @peepeehands @ChristoffWChanderson.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
My fault for trusting anything on the front page of google at face value
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
google has crossed the 50 percent misinformation threshold
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
misinformation? on my rdrama? its more likely than you think
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Thanks, that's interesting information. Either way, even if Columbus himself might be innocent, mayoids of the time certainly weren't.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
Nooo only I can frick the heckin caribinos
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
Almost everything said about Christopher Columbus is framed incorrectly or just blatantly attributed to him when he had nothing to do with it
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
I figure the "Columbus was basically Hitler" shit that's in vogue now is at least as misleading as the squeaky clean version of Columbus I was taught in school.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
If you want someone whoβs actually based go to Cortez. Heβs literally honoured in Mexico and so many Latinx are named after him. But also bad guy colonialist who ruined Tenochtitlan.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
*improved Mexico City
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
he literally forbid the people from continuing human sacrifice, ending one of the most based practices ever to arise in human history. He thought he would make a grand and beautiful Christian empire but look at Mexico City now and tell me if he accomplished his goal. Shithole country
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Always did wonder why in Mexico sometimes you see these depictions of angels in conquistador gear
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Theyβre like knights in Mexico (some of them actually were as well) in how they look back into the past.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
His crew mates and lieutenants literally made shit up to get him arrested and tried before the Crown. He was ultimately found innocent but it took generations of his descendants to eventually get what rewards and commission he was promised.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
> start slave colony
> frick off back to Spain
> nooooooo why am i getting blamed for all the shit my colonists do to the slaves?!?!?!
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
Based narrative deboonker
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Based itai grifter
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
Man the world sure is a fricked up shitty place we should just self nuke start over
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
There could have been an excuse if it took years but
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
least depraved dramatard
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
You know I could excuse idk, 14. But what the frick do you even do to a 9 year old? I don't even think you are physically able to frick her and now that I typed this sentence out I don't really want to think about it more.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
It was an adoption program.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
not everything is about fricking and cooming. you educate her and get her exercise.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Then you frick her.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Headpats
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
POV you're Chris Columbus
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
i know right, they didn't even have masters degrees yet
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
They mastered the Ds, apparently
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
white man been here
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
I hope those are just beauty scores based on the good old 1-10 rating system
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
I actually thought that's what it was on first halfass read and was "Huh? Of course they're in demand."
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Fake news.
It clearly says "Columbus 2003". Well, I regret to inform you, but I don't think Columbus has lived past the 1600's.
Debooooonked.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Wow holy shit
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
whites
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Every now and again moids remind us why we need armed police
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Arenβt you scrote?
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
And I'm part of the reason we need armed police!
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
I hate moids
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
Darn Columbus wrote that in 2003? He's getting up there
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Via ouija
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
He wrote that in 2003?
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
No, it was revealed to me in a dream
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Oh no, colonialism happened before modern ethics and consequences existed, it was definitely carried out by people with moral codes barely more refined than cave men and generally the worst of the refuse of those civilizations. That was never really in contest.
There are other more difficult questions, but whether colonialists where moral barbarians isn't one of them. Of course they weren't really outliers among civilizations for cruelty.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Sorry sweaty but only mayos are capable of cruelty
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Mayos get the worse rep because we wrote down all the dumb shit we did.
Literacy for Mayos is like twitter for teenagers running for office in their 30's. Writing down all the dumb shit you think and do is a recipe for disaster.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Mayo "historical accuracy" vs Based "oral history" you can revise on a dime
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
I think the prevailing argument that takes beef with colonialism is that the long-term effects of it are still being felt today. Who knows what America would be like if Spain had left it alone?
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Poor and mostly uninhabited.
Reminder that native Americans were so fricking primitive that they literally didn't have wheels. No carts, wheelbarrows, nothing.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
And now I'm in America sitting at a desk browsing rdrama on a gaming computer. Which is truly the better timeline?
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
This one. Not even close.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
Do you have any wheels?
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
The travois is actually superior if you don't have defined roads or beaten paths. Even European colonists used them till roads were established, fur traders in particular used them in the woods and snow. But plains and southwest tribes don't really have an excuse.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
They literally did not have animals to hitch to a wagon.
No horses, no oxen, no cows. Nothing like old worlders had. Only llamas in South America and even then just in the gd Andes mountains.
This is the key reason why the new world was so primitive.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Good point.
An ox is just a cow with a job though, despite living in rural cattle country I was over 30 before I learned that.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Wack, then Iβll say they ainβt got no yaks or shit neither
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
Not to mention pack dogs and canoes/waterways.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
They were also happy
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
Incans had wheels. Curiously, they didnβt seem to use them for much, despite the fact that they had well developed roads. I am not sure I believe that none of the natives of North America had wheels.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
They had decent roads - not really as good as most nations in the old world but still they had a significant network. And their agriculture was actually pretty good, especially considering they just barely used any draft animals and the majority of physical labor was from humans.
Why not? Because you think they're so obvious? Remember that in the old world, useful novel inventions like the wheel spread quite far and wide, and this kind of technological spread would obviously work the same on another continent. If any Native American tribe had any significant use of wheels for transport, it seems like it would have spread, and we'd have some evidence of it by now.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
I wonder if the lack of any large draft animals and the general mountainous terrain led the Incans to fail to develop the wheel further than the prototype stage. They definitely did have them, they just seem to have been toys.
The same may have been true of native Americans, whom I know much less about. A bison isnβt exactly willing to pull your cart for you.
To my mind, the wheel actually developed pretty late. Fire, the bow and arrow, and other inventions preceded it by millennia. The wheel didnβt really have a heyday till the dawn of urban societies.
I do not romanticize native Americans. I am well aware that they had a violent society. It is possible that this prevented urbanization, which then stymied the development of the wheel.
I wonder if we have found wheels they made like we did with the Inca.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
They did have mechanical wheels, they just didnβt use them for transportation but for stuff like pottery wheels or milling corn.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Left them alone as in never to step foot on the continent like we do with undiscovered Amazonian tribes? They'd be living nasty, brutish and short lives.
In some world where the colonialists for some reason acted as benevolent guides to uplift them technologically and take nothing in return, probably something like east africa with the same desimiation by plague followed by famine anyways. fantasies that they'd become the equivalent of Europe without colonialism are nonsense.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
It's a fascinating topic. I wonder if there's an anthropologist field of study that analyzes how different cultures around the world developed at different rates and why (that manages to avoid being harassed for "rascism" at every turn, since you know that's the first thing that will happen).
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
There was "guns germs and steel" as well as "Sapiens" that both took a decent stab at the question. Difficult to really tell though, if it were that easy we'd be able to predict contemporary develop questions.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Jared diamond is a fricking r-slur
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
I've heard this from brain dead lefties and rightoids so I think he must be doing something right.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Jared diamond tier interpretation
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
He is but other historians and anthropologists manage to come across even more so than he is.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
I'll take a look, thanks for the insight.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
PBS did a like 3 part episode of nova or maybe a standalone special of guns steel and germs, but I don't think they really examined any counter arguments in it.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
PBS is liberal propaganda for particularly stupid liberals.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
They're both pretty accessible reads
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
It's called macrohistory. It's the ultimate seethemaxing field because any theory will claim to have the One True Answer to dozens of controversial questions --- that is, the kinds millions have killed each other over.
The main one is "Which humans are better than others?" Others include:
"What is the purpose of life?"
"Does history have a direction?"
"What should my politics be?"
"What should we tell/force other counties to do?"
There is no way to answer these without pissing off at least 3 billion people.
I would highly recommend this self-taught course based on Fukuyama.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Repeal those annoying dry laws thatβs what!
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
The main argument I've seen is the differences in domesticatable animals
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Fun fact: when Hobbes coined the famous phrase "nasty, brutish, and short", he was describing what he supposed life must be like for uncivilized native Americans, compared with his native England. We now know that he was actually objectively wrong, and that native Americans of the day had essentially comperable life expectancies, rates of violent death, etc as people in enlightened and civilized England did.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
That's an unfair comparison, the British population was composed nearly entirely of British people.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
That was the comparison Hobbes was making tho
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Maybe some tribes, especially the ones that Hobbes would have known the most about so he still r-slurred on that, but Plains and Basin tribes had very brutal and short lives compared to more sedentary Southwest and Eastern Woodland tribes.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Yea but the thing is a whole lot of "civilized" Europeans had brutal and short lives in the 1600s, too.
You can make a case that some Euros were literate, or something, but when we look at overall averages for things like life-expectancy, infant mortality, death by violence, etc...Hobbes was just wrong. The Native Americans whom he supposed must be living in perpetual violence were actually doing really well, compared with Hobbes's fellow Englishmen, on those fronts.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Well a lot of tribes in western US were in perpetual constant warfare, paling out even the most warmongering lords in Europe.
Not really contradicting what you said, just adding that
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Yes, and a lot of "civilized" euros were also not only in perpetual warfare, but also perpetual brawls in taverns and streets and the like.
I mean, up until the end of WWII, Europe had basically been in perpetual war for like, over 1,000 years. Plus had the kinds of distinctly urban violence that come from lots of people with very disparate socioeconomic situations living in very close proximity.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
Wow! Did you learn these facts at Reddit U?
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Sounds like evrope to me
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
If you can call what pooropeans do "living"
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
At least the natives lived in the fricking woods or whatever instead of pooping in the english streets and contracting syphilis from two-bit whores
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Turns out pooping in the streets and getting syphilis was a strategic advantage
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
Just came to mind: the colonists did vary in their 'benevolence' toward others. The British were less brutal than the French and more relied upon locals to educate. The weirdest thing is seeing colonialism in India where they more or less ruled and left institutions; whereas, in sub-Saharan Africa, it was more of a 'wtf don't care' policy. Maybe it's the difference in geography, the lack of local useful crops, and possibly the average unruliness of the people being colonized that explains these outcomes we see today.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Indians already had institutions large enough to just take over, Africa was too fractured.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Politically, India was fractured with its network of fiefdoms and princes. Presumably, the Indians had a system of chiefs and something of a federation where the head honchos settled issues like land and water rights. Those could be negotiated with, but what was up with sub-Saharan Africa? Was it politically more "backwards" than native Americans?
It's weird.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
Even without diseases causing mass death their numbers were significantly lower compared to anything in East Africa or Europe. At best there would be some areas densely populated like as much as northern Finland.
Also, almost all tribes near or east of the Mississippi had agriculture and lived in sedentary villages living somewhat loosely with other affiliated villages, in some cases being dominated by a single overarching chief like the Powhatan (Pocahantasβs people). Between 10th and 13th centuries, those chieftains along the Mississippi River Basin/Southeast had forced a lot smaller villages to merge into centralized settlements and towns with large religious buildings, peaking at Cahokia, before declining by the 15th century and untimely dispersing into smaller villages after De Soto visited some the towns.
They still scalped and head hunted though lmao.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Hard to say, there were some more advanced things known by the larger tribes, if they had not been colonized by Europeans, itβs likely that one of them would have exploited the others much as the Mexica were already doing.
Mexica had a base-20 system of mathematics and had some basic geometric and algebraic concepts, they were familiar with the concept of the wheel, they just didnβt utilize it for transportationβthey had well engineered roads made of limestone and cement, but no draft animals to pull shit. Pretty well developed systems of making textiles and everything. The Spaniards were actually pretty impressed when they came.
The Mexica were also cruel and oppressive to weaker tribes, so had they been left to their own devices they would have just colonized the others as technology improved.
Also-something to note, there was no βNative Identityβ that shit is a modern construction. They didnβt see themselves as closer to other natives than they did to the Spanish, anyway.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
The βnative identityβ is just really a development of the Indian/Amerindian one that developed naturally due to contrast of Indian ethnic groups with Spanish/Latinx ones.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
I do.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
What would America would be like if we had left Britney alone?
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
I mean thatβs a kinda of backwards thinking. Thatβs like saying what the world would have looked like if Arabs didnβt conquer all of MENA, the Romans never expanding beyond Latium or that the Indo-Europeans stayed as just steppe monkeys in Central Asia. Like yeah shit would look different but itβs so foundational to human history that itβs not really conceptualized and not many people do, so why single out the Spanish?
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
But what would Spain be like if the muslims left them alone.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
The Aztecs did some horrific shit to their subjects. The Spaniards were pretty fricking bad and ultimately betrayed the tribes that allied with them but the only reason they joined the Spanish in the first place was because Aztec rule was so utterly monstrous.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
If there's a group of native Americans who straight up deserved what they got, it's the Aztecs of Tenochtitlan.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
Makes sense. Thatβs why I am justified at being super racist to Mexican people on the internet.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Yes it was lol. Human history was not a series of atrocity chimp outs, either colonial or pre-colonial.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
It wasn't a chimpout, just a boring continuation of the state of things that happened to include taking the other tribe's females as "wives".
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
The history of law as a concept is basically "preventing degenerate coomers from ruining everything". These guys were just happy to arrive at a new land where they could coom without consequence
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
I always thought we are more similar and connected to the past than we often think, and the progressive movement of casting huge judgments on all that was really counterproductive. Itβs just another way of saying βoh Iβm so smart and developed, you are primitiveβ which in my mind is the voice of societyβs hubris.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
Italians are terrible people
@Transgender_spez
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
Oh shit i thought colonialism is when we give them schools and hospitals. What have i done?
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
It's hilarious when anti-colonialists oppose actually helping poor as shit areas or preaching to them or whatever and compare it to systematic r*pe and enslavement.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Yeah ill take schools and hospitals if the only cost is listening to a preacher
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context
More options
Context