Christopher Coomlumbus :coomer:

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Maybe those mayos complaining about colonialism were right :marseyworried:

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:marseyhmm:

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Edit: This claim has been debooonked by @Avalon (((independent factchecker))). Please see below, Coomlumbus remains based.

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This is such a weird way of framing it. It's not Columbus celebrating it but complaining about the colonists he left there when he was recalled to Spain and posted back 2 years later and their excesses. https://www.americanjourneys.org/AJ_PDF/AJ-067.pdf page 378 exactly. @Szia_uram @peepeehands @ChristoffWChanderson.

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>mfw dramachan posts misinformation

:#marseybeanpensive:

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My fault for trusting anything on the front page of google at face value :marseyrain:

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google has crossed the 50 percent misinformation threshold

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misinformation? on my rdrama? its more likely than you think

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Thanks, that's interesting information. Either way, even if Columbus himself might be innocent, mayoids of the time certainly weren't.

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Nooo only I can frick the heckin caribinos :marseysoycry:

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Almost everything said about Christopher Columbus is framed incorrectly or just blatantly attributed to him when he had nothing to do with it

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I figure the "Columbus was basically Hitler" shit that's in vogue now is at least as misleading as the squeaky clean version of Columbus I was taught in school.

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:marseyconquistador:If you want someone who’s actually based go to Cortez. He’s literally honoured in Mexico and so many Latinx are named after him. But also bad guy colonialist who ruined Tenochtitlan.:marseyconquistador::marseyconquistador::marseyconquistador:

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*improved Mexico City :marseysmug2:

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:marseyrage::marseyrage: he literally forbid the people from continuing human sacrifice, ending one of the most based practices ever to arise in human history. He thought he would make a grand and beautiful Christian empire but look at Mexico City now and tell me if he accomplished his goal. Shithole country:marseyraging::marseyraging::marseyraging::marseyraging::marseyraging::marseyraging:

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Always did wonder why in Mexico sometimes you see these depictions of angels in conquistador gear

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They’re like knights in Mexico (some of them actually were as well) in how they look back into the past.

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His crew mates and lieutenants literally made shit up to get him arrested and tried before the Crown. He was ultimately found innocent but it took generations of his descendants to eventually get what rewards and commission he was promised.

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> start slave colony

> frick off back to Spain

> nooooooo why am i getting blamed for all the shit my colonists do to the slaves?!?!?!

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>in 1492, sailing across the ocean blue

>found a bunch of islands with friendly locals

>awyiss

>find reports of gold and great weather

>many of the natives are interested in Christianity and are baptized

>established good relations with various caciques, some of whom agreed to submit to the Spaniards

>things are going great

>go back to report success and get extra supplies from Spain

>second I leave the proto-hard-working Americans started an atrocity speedrun

>start various wars and worked the natives to death

>tried to stop it when get back but get and sent back Spain as a scapegoat

>almost hanged and the monarchs refuse to give me my rewards

>after I die new continent I discovered gets named after another dago

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Based narrative deboonker

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those from nine to ten are now in demand

:#marseyyikes:

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![](/images/16650809899302342.webp)

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Based itai grifter

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Man the world sure is a fricked up shitty place we should just self nuke start over

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>boat trip was like 3 months

There could have been an excuse if it took years but :marseynope:

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there could have been an excuse but

:marseycringe2:

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least depraved dramatard

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>Excuse

You know I could excuse idk, 14. But what the frick do you even do to a 9 year old? I don't even think you are physically able to frick her and now that I typed this sentence out I don't really want to think about it more.

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:marseypedo:

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It was an adoption program. :marseyshrug:

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not everything is about fricking and cooming. you educate her and get her exercise.

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Then you frick her.

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But what the frick do you even do to a 9 year old?

Headpats

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POV you're Chris Columbus

![](https://media.giphy.com/media/LqCRZsDoq1EcdqSVfJ/giphy.webp)

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i know right, they didn't even have masters degrees yet

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They mastered the Ds, apparently

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white man been here

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>Those from nine to ten are in demand

I hope those are just beauty scores based on the good old 1-10 rating system:marseysweating:

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I actually thought that's what it was on first halfass read and was "Huh? Of course they're in demand."

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Fake news.

It clearly says "Columbus 2003". Well, I regret to inform you, but I don't think Columbus has lived past the 1600's.

Debooooonked.

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:marseybigbrain:

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:#marseyhesright:

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Wow holy shit :marseyspit:

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whites

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>whites

>Spaniards

:marseydisagree: :marseymexican:

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Every now and again moids remind us why we need armed police

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Aren’t you scrote?

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And I'm part of the reason we need armed police!

:#marseyira:

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I hate moids :marseygiveup:

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Darn Columbus wrote that in 2003? He's getting up there

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Via ouija

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He wrote that in 2003?

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No, it was revealed to me in a dream

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:#marseypedo:

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Oh no, colonialism happened before modern ethics and consequences existed, it was definitely carried out by people with moral codes barely more refined than cave men and generally the worst of the refuse of those civilizations. That was never really in contest.

There are other more difficult questions, but whether colonialists where moral barbarians isn't one of them. Of course they weren't really outliers among civilizations for cruelty.


:#marseytwerking:

:marseycoin::marseycoin::marseycoin:
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Sorry sweaty but only mayos are capable of cruelty :marseynails:

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Mayos get the worse rep because we wrote down all the dumb shit we did.

Literacy for Mayos is like twitter for teenagers running for office in their 30's. Writing down all the dumb shit you think and do is a recipe for disaster.

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Mayo "historical accuracy" vs Based "oral history" you can revise on a dime

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I think the prevailing argument that takes beef with colonialism is that the long-term effects of it are still being felt today. Who knows what America would be like if Spain had left it alone?

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Poor and mostly uninhabited.

Reminder that native Americans were so fricking primitive that they literally didn't have wheels. No carts, wheelbarrows, nothing.

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And now I'm in America sitting at a desk browsing rdrama on a gaming computer. Which is truly the better timeline?

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This one. Not even close.

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Do you have any wheels?

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The travois is actually superior if you don't have defined roads or beaten paths. Even European colonists used them till roads were established, fur traders in particular used them in the woods and snow. But plains and southwest tribes don't really have an excuse.

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They literally did not have animals to hitch to a wagon.

No horses, no oxen, no cows. Nothing like old worlders had. Only llamas in South America and even then just in the gd Andes mountains.

This is the key reason why the new world was so primitive.

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Good point.

An ox is just a cow with a job though, despite living in rural cattle country I was over 30 before I learned that.

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Wack, then I’ll say they ain’t got no yaks or shit neither

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Not to mention pack dogs and canoes/waterways.

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They were also happy :marseyunabomber2:

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Incans had wheels. Curiously, they didn’t seem to use them for much, despite the fact that they had well developed roads. I am not sure I believe that none of the natives of North America had wheels.

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They had decent roads - not really as good as most nations in the old world but still they had a significant network. And their agriculture was actually pretty good, especially considering they just barely used any draft animals and the majority of physical labor was from humans.

I am not sure I believe that none of the natives of North America had wheels.

Why not? Because you think they're so obvious? Remember that in the old world, useful novel inventions like the wheel spread quite far and wide, and this kind of technological spread would obviously work the same on another continent. If any Native American tribe had any significant use of wheels for transport, it seems like it would have spread, and we'd have some evidence of it by now.

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I wonder if the lack of any large draft animals and the general mountainous terrain led the Incans to fail to develop the wheel further than the prototype stage. They definitely did have them, they just seem to have been toys.

The same may have been true of native Americans, whom I know much less about. A bison isn’t exactly willing to pull your cart for you.

To my mind, the wheel actually developed pretty late. Fire, the bow and arrow, and other inventions preceded it by millennia. The wheel didn’t really have a heyday till the dawn of urban societies.

I do not romanticize native Americans. I am well aware that they had a violent society. It is possible that this prevented urbanization, which then stymied the development of the wheel.

I wonder if we have found wheels they made like we did with the Inca.

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They did have mechanical wheels, they just didn’t use them for transportation but for stuff like pottery wheels or milling corn.

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Left them alone as in never to step foot on the continent like we do with undiscovered Amazonian tribes? They'd be living nasty, brutish and short lives.

In some world where the colonialists for some reason acted as benevolent guides to uplift them technologically and take nothing in return, probably something like east africa with the same desimiation by plague followed by famine anyways. fantasies that they'd become the equivalent of Europe without colonialism are nonsense.


:#marseytwerking:

:marseycoin::marseycoin::marseycoin:
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It's a fascinating topic. I wonder if there's an anthropologist field of study that analyzes how different cultures around the world developed at different rates and why (that manages to avoid being harassed for "rascism" at every turn, since you know that's the first thing that will happen).

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There was "guns germs and steel" as well as "Sapiens" that both took a decent stab at the question. Difficult to really tell though, if it were that easy we'd be able to predict contemporary develop questions.


:#marseytwerking:

:marseycoin::marseycoin::marseycoin:
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Jared diamond is a fricking r-slur

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I've heard this from brain dead lefties and rightoids so I think he must be doing something right.


:#marseytwerking:

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Jared diamond tier interpretation

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He is but other historians and anthropologists manage to come across even more so than he is.

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I'll take a look, thanks for the insight. :marseythumbsup:

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PBS did a like 3 part episode of nova or maybe a standalone special of guns steel and germs, but I don't think they really examined any counter arguments in it.

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PBS is liberal propaganda for particularly stupid liberals.

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They're both pretty accessible reads


:#marseytwerking:

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It's called macrohistory. It's the ultimate seethemaxing field because any theory will claim to have the One True Answer to dozens of controversial questions --- that is, the kinds millions have killed each other over.

The main one is "Which humans are better than others?" Others include:

  • "What is the purpose of life?"

  • "Does history have a direction?"

  • "What should my politics be?"

  • "What should we tell/force other counties to do?"

There is no way to answer these without pissing off at least 3 billion people.

I would highly recommend this self-taught course based on Fukuyama.

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What should we tell/force other counties to do?"

Repeal those annoying dry laws that’s what! :marseyraging:

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The main argument I've seen is the differences in domesticatable animals

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They'd be living nasty, brutish and short lives.

Fun fact: when Hobbes coined the famous phrase "nasty, brutish, and short", he was describing what he supposed life must be like for uncivilized native Americans, compared with his native England. We now know that he was actually objectively wrong, and that native Americans of the day had essentially comperable life expectancies, rates of violent death, etc as people in enlightened and civilized England did.

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That's an unfair comparison, the British population was composed nearly entirely of British people.


:#marseytwerking:

:marseycoin::marseycoin::marseycoin:
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That was the comparison Hobbes was making tho

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Maybe some tribes, especially the ones that Hobbes would have known the most about so he still r-slurred on that, but Plains and Basin tribes had very brutal and short lives compared to more sedentary Southwest and Eastern Woodland tribes.

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Yea but the thing is a whole lot of "civilized" Europeans had brutal and short lives in the 1600s, too.

You can make a case that some Euros were literate, or something, but when we look at overall averages for things like life-expectancy, infant mortality, death by violence, etc...Hobbes was just wrong. The Native Americans whom he supposed must be living in perpetual violence were actually doing really well, compared with Hobbes's fellow Englishmen, on those fronts.

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Well a lot of tribes in western US were in perpetual constant warfare, paling out even the most warmongering lords in Europe.

Not really contradicting what you said, just adding that :marseyjam:

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Yes, and a lot of "civilized" euros were also not only in perpetual warfare, but also perpetual brawls in taverns and streets and the like.

I mean, up until the end of WWII, Europe had basically been in perpetual war for like, over 1,000 years. Plus had the kinds of distinctly urban violence that come from lots of people with very disparate socioeconomic situations living in very close proximity.

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Wow! Did you learn these facts at Reddit U?

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>nasty brutish, short lives

Sounds like evrope to me

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If you can call what pooropeans do "living"


:#marseytwerking:

:marseycoin::marseycoin::marseycoin:
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At least the natives lived in the fricking woods or whatever instead of pooping in the english streets and contracting syphilis from two-bit whores

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Turns out pooping in the streets and getting syphilis was a strategic advantage


:#marseytwerking:

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In some world where the colonialists for some reason acted as benevolent guides to uplift them technologically

Just came to mind: the colonists did vary in their 'benevolence' toward others. The British were less brutal than the French and more relied upon locals to educate. The weirdest thing is seeing colonialism in India where they more or less ruled and left institutions; whereas, in sub-Saharan Africa, it was more of a 'wtf don't care' policy. Maybe it's the difference in geography, the lack of local useful crops, and possibly the average unruliness of the people being colonized that explains these outcomes we see today.

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Indians already had institutions large enough to just take over, Africa was too fractured.


:#marseytwerking:

:marseycoin::marseycoin::marseycoin:
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Politically, India was fractured with its network of fiefdoms and princes. Presumably, the Indians had a system of chiefs and something of a federation where the head honchos settled issues like land and water rights. Those could be negotiated with, but what was up with sub-Saharan Africa? Was it politically more "backwards" than native Americans?

It's weird.

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Even without diseases causing mass death their numbers were significantly lower compared to anything in East Africa or Europe. At best there would be some areas densely populated like as much as northern Finland.

Also, almost all tribes near or east of the Mississippi had agriculture and lived in sedentary villages living somewhat loosely with other affiliated villages, in some cases being dominated by a single overarching chief like the Powhatan (Pocahantas’s people). Between 10th and 13th centuries, those chieftains along the Mississippi River Basin/Southeast had forced a lot smaller villages to merge into centralized settlements and towns with large religious buildings, peaking at Cahokia, before declining by the 15th century and untimely dispersing into smaller villages after De Soto visited some the towns.

They still scalped and head hunted though lmao.

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Hard to say, there were some more advanced things known by the larger tribes, if they had not been colonized by Europeans, it’s likely that one of them would have exploited the others much as the Mexica were already doing.

Mexica had a base-20 system of mathematics and had some basic geometric and algebraic concepts, they were familiar with the concept of the wheel, they just didn’t utilize it for transportationβ€”they had well engineered roads made of limestone and cement, but no draft animals to pull shit. Pretty well developed systems of making textiles and everything. The Spaniards were actually pretty impressed when they came.

The Mexica were also cruel and oppressive to weaker tribes, so had they been left to their own devices they would have just colonized the others as technology improved.

Also-something to note, there was no β€œNative Identity” that shit is a modern construction. They didn’t see themselves as closer to other natives than they did to the Spanish, anyway.

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The β€œnative identity” is just really a development of the Indian/Amerindian one that developed naturally due to contrast of Indian ethnic groups with Spanish/Latinx ones.

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Who knows what American would be like if Spain had left it alone?

I do.

![](/images/16650840851710594.webp)

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What would America would be like if we had left Britney alone?

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I mean that’s a kinda of backwards thinking. That’s like saying what the world would have looked like if Arabs didn’t conquer all of MENA, the Romans never expanding beyond Latium or that the Indo-Europeans stayed as just steppe monkeys in Central Asia. Like yeah shit would look different but it’s so foundational to human history that it’s not really conceptualized and not many people do, so why single out the Spanish?

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But what would Spain be like if the muslims left them alone.

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The Aztecs did some horrific shit to their subjects. The Spaniards were pretty fricking bad and ultimately betrayed the tribes that allied with them but the only reason they joined the Spanish in the first place was because Aztec rule was so utterly monstrous.

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If there's a group of native Americans who straight up deserved what they got, it's the Aztecs of Tenochtitlan.

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Makes sense. That’s why I am justified at being super racist to Mexican people on the internet.

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That was never really in contest.

Yes it was lol. Human history was not a series of atrocity chimp outs, either colonial or pre-colonial.

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It wasn't a chimpout, just a boring continuation of the state of things that happened to include taking the other tribe's females as "wives".


:#marseytwerking:

:marseycoin::marseycoin::marseycoin:
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The history of law as a concept is basically "preventing degenerate coomers from ruining everything". These guys were just happy to arrive at a new land where they could coom without consequence

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I always thought we are more similar and connected to the past than we often think, and the progressive movement of casting huge judgments on all that was really counterproductive. It’s just another way of saying β€œoh I’m so smart and developed, you are primitive” which in my mind is the voice of society’s hubris.

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"I assure you, that you would have thought she had been brought up in a school for whores"

Italians are terrible people

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Oh shit i thought colonialism is when we give them schools and hospitals. What have i done?

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It's hilarious when anti-colonialists oppose actually helping poor as shit areas or preaching to them or whatever and compare it to systematic r*pe and enslavement.


:#marseytwerking:

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Yeah ill take schools and hospitals if the only cost is listening to a preacher

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