@coned's comment on 'THE AMERICAN TOLKIEN :marseythegrey: :soyjakyell: :marseygeorgerrmartin: :marseyit:'

EFFORTPOST THE AMERICAN TOLKIEN :marseythegrey:

https://time.com/archive/6675462/books-the-american-tolkien/

A common discussion in Fantasy online circles seems to be "who's the new Tolkien?", this article by Time magazine dates from 2005 and is responsible for popularizing the idea that George RR Martin is the "American Tolkien".

What really distinguishes Martin, and what marks him as a major force for evolution in fantasy, is his refusal to embrace a vision of the world as a Manichaean struggle between Good and Evil. Tolkien's work has enormous imaginative force, but you have to go elsewhere for moral complexity. Martin's wars are multifaceted and ambiguous, as are the men and women who wage them and the gods who watch them and chortle, and somehow that makes them mean more. A Feast for Crows isn't pretty elves against gnarly orcs. It's men and women slugging it out in the muck, for money and power and lust and love.

Now I have to say a like ASOIAF a lot, but I never understood why those two authors get compared to each other. They both write Fantasy and love (loved in Tolkien's case) world-building and lore but that's it, their writing styles are different, their stories are different, their themes are different. Is it just because :#marseygeorgerrmartin: has a "double R" on his name (the second R which he added by the way). Is it because the "what's Aragorn's tax policy" quote? :soyjakfat:

The article talks about Robert Jordan too @kaamrev :marseysoypoint: and what's funny is that it comes as a review for "A Feast for Crows" which is… well, ranked low among ASOIAFcels, most fans feel the series peaked in "A Storm of Swords" and AFFC can be a slog for many.

I think it can be argued GRRM is currently the best Fantasy author alive (I guess this speaks more of the current state of fantasy but many would claim it is :marseyrowling: ), there's a lot of his writing which is good but also what is bad tends to be very bad

Like this:

Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up, she was pooping brown water. The more she drank the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew.

Daenerys last chapter on ADWD lmao

Or this from AFFC which I don't know if it is good, bad, funny or what

Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace, she thought, slipping a third finger into Myr. Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons of my face and fingers one by one, al those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs.

Cersei describing licking Robert's c*m instead of finishing inside her, she says that while anally fingering a woman. Maybe we can qualify it as a realistic :marseywomanmoment:

Then there are the thematic differences, Tolkien's Legendarium is mythology, which was Tolkien's life passion, he gets criticized for making "black and white" characters instead of "morally grey" ones but the thing is his main themes are "Good vs Evil" on a cosmic battle, envy (Morgoth) and the will to dominate (Sauron) are the ultimate evil, he's not aiming at historical accuracy as mythology is always anachronistic. ASOIAF is an attempt at European Medieval History but "what if dragons and evil ice elves existed?" Is not good representation of Medieval Western Europe either as medieval peasants were just passive NPCs which lords like the Boltons could skin alive without repercussions, the evil characters of ASOIAF like the Boltons, the Mountain or Tywin get away with too much shit. The high lords of Westeros are also weirdly and modernly atheistic or irreligious, so for all of GRRM's talk about his saga being "historically well grounded" it doesn't seem better than any other fantasy novel, not that it is a problem as it doesn't affect writing quality and storylines just something to point out.

A good way to conclude is that GRRM is not the American Tolkien, in fact no one is and that's ok. An author should be it's own thing, they shouldn't live under the shadow of another author to be compared and I feel like every time the media or fans say stuff like "X IS THE AMERICAN Y" :marseysoylentgrin: or "A IS THE NEW B" :marseysoyhype: they're doing X and A a disservice.

Here are some reddit threads on it

https://old.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/hw0ls4/the_american_tolkien_isnt_george_r_r_martin_its/

Here this redditor argues the American Tolkien is not GRRM but Stephen King :marseyxd:

And here's Robert Jordan's thread

https://old.reddit.com/r/books/comments/61k1v0/robert_jordan_the_american_tolkien/

I never read Jordan so maybe their fans can tell us if that's an apt comparison but I'm certain having Jordan just be Jordan is much better

https://old.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/1fim7a/no_spoilers_the_american_spectator_is_george_rr/

The Game of Thrones sub (normiest ASOIAF sub ever).

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coned no/no women are a lot like a refrigerator. they are 6 feet tall, 300 pounds, and they make ice. 3mo ago #6789963

but he doesn't write childrens books how can he be the americna tolkien

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Tip_Your_Lanky_Kong Lanky/Kong :diddykongboombox:

coned 3mo ago #6789981

The Hobbit alone has more literary merit than GRRM's entire corpus :marseyindignant:

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coned no/no women are a lot like a refrigerator. they are 6 feet tall, 300 pounds, and they make ice. Tip_Your_Lanky_Kong 3mo ago #6790000

maybe, but everything tolkien wrote was for children.

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nuclearshill gau/cho coned 3mo ago #6790034 Edited 3mo ago

Depends

The Hobbit, yes

LOTR, kind of, even back in the 50s it attracted audiences of all ages but teenagers and young adults were the ones to love it the most.

The Silmarillion, no. Is not that is not "suitable" for kids or anything, but the prose is much harder unlike the Hobbit which is quite simple, same with the plots, many LOTR fans were disappointed with The Silmarillion because is a dry mythology Bible-like compendium instead of an adventure/fantasy novel.

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LostAndConfused they/them nuclearshill 3mo ago #6790300 Edited 3mo ago

I mean, the Tale of the Children of Hurin isn't a fun cheery happy kids' story. It too has incest in it, but whereas Martin would probably describe every moment of the THEY'RE SIBLINGS HAVING S*X THIS IS INCEST DO YOU GET IT? in gloating detail, Tolkien just tells us "yep, they met again. they didn't recognise each other. they got married. she got pregnant. then they found out. and she killed herself, and he went even madder than he already was and killed himself. then their parents found out about it all later."

It's a very dark story, and the restraint makes it even more emotionally affecting. The entire saga is one long tangled mess of good people making bad decisions and how that makes everything go to heck, with innocent bystanders (and not-so-innocent ones) getting caught in the crossfire and ending up dead and worse.

You don't actually need to write every single little detail of the s*x and gore and so forth to get a reaction out of the reader, if your story is strong enough and your writing is good enough.

Like, Hurin is this epic hero. He stands up to and defies Morgoth for decades of physical and psychological torture. Then he's let go, but that's just Morgoth being a cat playing with a mouse. And the heroic warrior who could tirelessly kills scores of enemies in battle is, in the end, a weak old man who hasn't even the strength to lift the dead body of his wife up so he can bury her properly:

>But Húrin passed on, and at evening of the sixth day he came at last to the place of the burning of Glaurung, and saw the tall stone standing near the brink of Cabed Naeramarth. But Húrin did not look at the stone, for he knew what was written there, and his eyes had seen that he was not alone. Sitting in the shadow of the stone there was a figure bent over its knees. Some homeless wanderer broken with age it seemed, too wayworn to heed his coming; but its rags were the remnants of a woman's garb. At length as Húrin stood there silent she cast back her tattered hood and lifted up her face slowly, haggard and hungry as a long-hunted wolf. Grey she was, sharp-nosed with broken teeth, and with a lean hand she clawed at the cloak upon her breast. But suddenly her eyes looked into his, and then Húrin knew her; for though they were wild now and full of fear, a light still gleamed in them hard to endure: the elven-light that long ago had earned her her name, Edelwen, proudest of mortal women in the days of old.

>"Edelwen! Edelwen!" Húrin cried; and she rose and stumbled forward, and he caught her in his arms.

>"You come at last," she said. "I have waited too long."

>"It was a dark road. I have come as I could," he answered.

>"But you are late," she said, "too late. They are lost."

>"I know," he said. "But thou art not."

>"Almost," she said. "I am spent utterly. I shall go with the sun. They are lost." She clutched at his cloak. "Little time is left," she said. "If you know, tell me! How did she find him?"

>But Húrin did not answer, and he sat beside the stone with Morwen in his arms; and they did not speak again. The sun went down, and Morwen sighed and clasped his hand and was still; and Húrin knew that she had died.

>So passed Morwen the proud and fair; and Húrin looked down at her in the twilight, and it seemed that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. Cold and pale and stern was her face. "She was not conquered," he said; and he closed her eyes, and sat on unmoving beside her as night drew down. The waters of Cabed Naeramarth roared on, but he heard no sound and saw nothing, and he felt nothing, for his heart was stone within him, and he thought that he would sit there until he too died.

>Then there came a chill wind and drove sharp rain in his face; and suddenly he was roused, and out of a black deep anger rose in him like a smoke, mastering reason, so that all his desire was to seek vengeance for his wrongs, and for the wrongs of his kin, accusing in his anguish all those who ever had had dealings with them.

>He arose and lifted Morwen up; and suddenly he knew that it was beyond his strength to bear her. He was hungry and old, and weary as winter. Slowly he laid her down again beside the standing stone. "Lie there a little longer, Edelwen," he said, "until I return. Not even a wolf would do you more hurt. But the folk of this hard land shall rue the day that you died here!"

If Martin has written anything this pitiful and sad and emotionally affecting, I'd be glad to hear it. Not some stupid vain b-word licking c*m off her fingers.

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coned 3mo ago #6790027

1 of the 50 books he wrote was for children

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coned no/no women are a lot like a refrigerator. they are 6 feet tall, 300 pounds, and they make ice. Tip_Your_Lanky_Kong 3mo ago #6790070

what he only wrote 4 books and they are all lord of the rings which are childrens books :talk2hand:

Twaddle they/them coned 3mo ago #6794076

Modern readers are as sophisticated as children from the 50s

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timmy_blueballs they/them I called you an r-slur to increase my upmarseys. Nothing personal kid. Tip_Your_Lanky_Kong 3mo ago #6790429

Hwonyestwy that's fair. The Hwobbit is unyiquewy fun in a gay way.

PillsburyDoughboy rslur/fslur Biden didn't send a mob at the capitol to disrupt the peaceful transition of power coned 3mo ago #6791354

He writes shit exclusively for adult children. That counts right?

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