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ElverGalarga El/Rey EvilUbie 6mo ago #6387546 Edited 6mo ago

The conditions of the universe and our local environment are exceedingly improbable to have occurred.

the universe in some sense compelled to eventually have conscious and sapient life emerge within it.[4][5] A form of the latter known as the participatory anthropic principle, articulated by John Archibald Wheeler, suggests on the basis of quantum mechanics that the universe, as a condition of its existence, must be observed, thus implying one or more observers. Stronger yet is the final anthropic principle (FAP), proposed by John D. Barrow and Frank Tipler, which views the universe's structure as expressible by bits of information in such a way that information processing is inevitable and eternal.[4]

Basically there's a 1 in 10^50 chance of a universe to emerge from a big bang with constants that make it possible for things to work so we can live. Things like the gravitational force being too strong or too weak (and it's already oddly weak compared to other forces) mean that shit would be fricked from inception.

Counter arguments include: All those universes exist but we can only exist in the one that works, hence us being here. Which is still kinda weird that life would be that exceedingly rare, but maybe there's sentient dustclouds in other universes. If Everett's MWH is even valid.

Also the Axis of Evil is interesting (even the Wiki neurodivergent rationalist astroturfing crew wasn't able to bury it):

anomalies in the background radiation have been reported which are aligned with the plane of our solar system. These are unexplained by the Copernican principle and suggest that the solar system's alignment is special in relation to the background radiation of the universe

The "axis of evil" is a name given to the apparent correlation between the plane of the Solar System and aspects of the cosmic microwave background (CMB). It gives the plane of the Solar System and hence the location of Earth a greater significance than might be expected by chance – a result which has been claimed to be evidence of a departure from the Copernican principle as assumed in the concordance model

Lawrence Krauss is quoted as follows in a 2006 Edge.org article:

The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe, or maybe the data is simply incorrect, or maybe it's telling us there's something weird about the microwave background results and that maybe, maybe there's something wrong with our theories on the larger scales.

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EvilUbie cute/twink :marseyhissing:

ElverGalarga 6mo ago #6387638

Stronger yet is the final anthropic principle (FAP), proposed by John D. Barrow and Frank Tipler, which views the universe's structure as expressible by bits of information in such a way that information processing is inevitable and eternal.[4]

>assume the structure of the universe is expressed as [vague] bits of info

>conclude that [vague] information processing is inevitable and eternal

This is suppose to be insightful? Because it's kind of r-slurred.

The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe, or maybe the data is simply incorrect, or maybe it's telling us there's something weird a

How does this BIPOC not know what a point of reference is? If we were on another planet, it would also seem like everything is either moving toward or away from us.

@Geralt_of_Uganda, what the heck is going on here? It's all nonsense!

:marseyeyelidpulling:

!ifrickinglovescience, help! :marseyattentionseeker:

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Geralt_of_Uganda ray/cis Medallion's humming :marseygeralt:

EvilUbie 6mo ago #6387654 Edited 6mo ago

Oh yeah some people go absolutely schizo with it, especially if you start invoking it to prove or disprove existence of higher powers. I'm not even gonna pretend that I understand what kind of argument that Barrow neighbor is trying to make (not because it's stupid but because I'm stupid), the explanation I put in my other comment is the principle in its simplest form I think

Wheeler had absolutely crazy ideas though that built onto this though, but it's genuine lovecraftian nonsense that I barely comprehend, such as that the universe necessarily generates itself through the act of observing itself, and argues that this explains the observation problem in QM

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EvilUbie cute/twink :marseyhissing:

Geralt_of_Uganda 6mo ago #6387710

that the universe necessarily generates itself through the act of observing itself,

>the universe observes

I hate it when the anthropomorphizing neighbors enter the room. :marseyshiftyeyes: The universe is a big collection of dirt and light. It can't do anything in the conscious sense. It's like people don't know what "act" means.

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Geralt_of_Uganda ray/cis Medallion's humming :marseygeralt:

EvilUbie 6mo ago #6387732

It's kinda fricked up because despite how much of modern science is built on this concept, I'm not sure if there's a single agreed upon definition of what "observation" even means besides some handwavy "information about an event leaks... somewhere"

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Wolverine We/Wuz I'm the Best there is at what I do, but what I do best isn't very nice Geralt_of_Uganda 6mo ago #6389825

dont particles "observe" each other when they are affected by each other in any capacity? where is this sapient thought thing coming from?

why is a planet existing with the qualities of earth mean sentience might be pre-determined? cant it be just because the universe is really big with a lot of combinations of any possible outcome happening somewhere? of course sentient life would exist in place where its possible, rather than not??

why would the fundamental laws of physics being the way they are considered a rare luck for us? arent they set in stone?

@TheOverSeether im going insaaaane BIPOCman help! :marseyeyelidpulling:

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Wolverine We/Wuz I'm the Best there is at what I do, but what I do best isn't very nice Wolverine 6mo ago #6389832

@PoonstaryerCaribeaner youre in my pbs space time crew what do you think

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DestoryerCarbine sae/less Only real g*mer on this entire site Wolverine 6mo ago #6389954

Because he's a pseud latviaBIPOC

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Wolverine We/Wuz I'm the Best there is at what I do, but what I do best isn't very nice DestoryerCarbine 6mo ago #6389957

the data seems to support this claim :marseythinkorino:

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FearOfBees BI/POC :soycry:

Wolverine 6mo ago #6389920

There's just so many things in physics that don't make sense. It's more likely that the world is a simulation run on a Dyson Sphere than the universe works like we think it does.

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DestoryerCarbine sae/less Only real g*mer on this entire site FearOfBees 6mo ago #6389965

No lol

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FearOfBees BI/POC :soycry:

DestoryerCarbine 6mo ago #6389990

Yes?

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More comments

Chapose Asuna/Kirito I would kill to kill a waifu. Wolverine 6mo ago #6390814

Youre right, everyone who says otherwise is either religious or some I-fricking-love-science-cel who needs to believe in a higher power out there somewhere BUT NOT GOD!!! (religious but even more r-slurred)

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lain gnu/bsd and you don't seem to understand :marseypomni2:

Geralt_of_Uganda 6mo ago #6387936

maybe I'm r-slurred but my understanding is the "observer effect" is different from how things work on a quantum scale when it comes to things "collapsing".

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Geniud2 they/them Geralt_of_Uganda 6mo ago #6388596

it's a google away u r-slur

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NO rang/kang :!vegetaleave:

Geniud2 6mo ago #6389731

@NO WHAT CHANNEL IS TNT

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TournamentFishingButJolly ye/haw :marseyglep!:

EvilUbie 6mo ago #6388335

>The universe is a big collection of dirt and light

There's barely any dirt, you anthropic r-slur. The universe is a fart.

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Elise_Culpepper Fae/Fay Sister(Brother) of the Arcanum of Norfolk EvilUbie 6mo ago #6388521

The universe is a big collection of dirt and light.

THAT'S THE SMALL PART OF IT YOU CAN observe...

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EvilUbie cute/twink :marseyhissing:

Elise_Culpepper 6mo ago #6388576

Yeah yeah, and dark matter, and dark energy, and my dark anus.

:#mariogoatse:

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Elise_Culpepper Fae/Fay Sister(Brother) of the Arcanum of Norfolk EvilUbie 6mo ago #6388809 spent 720 currency on pings

!moidmoment

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Deleted by author

Biggles Fellr/Boah :marseycoin:

2014 dogecoin miner :marseycoin:

Geralt_of_Uganda 6mo ago #6388840

:marseywords: This is all worthless philosophy, our systems plane lining up with things in the CMB is almost neat but is guaranteed to just be due to our horribly uninformed readings on all that so far away, like the neighbor says himself at the very end.

maybe the data is simply incorrect, or maybe it's telling us there's something weird about the microwave background results and that maybe, maybe there's something wrong with our theories on the larger scales.

:marseyagreewarpspeed: we don't even know what a :marseykente: hole do with the """"data"""" it sucks up into it's bussyhole horizon and those things are like right next to us everywhere compared to CMB.

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RWBY Gambol/Shroud Chapose was a good admin :marseysummerrose:

Geralt_of_Uganda 6mo ago #6388042

This sounds like an !anime plot :marseythebloodedge:

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ElverGalarga El/Rey EvilUbie 6mo ago #6387716

It's kinda weird because it's been observed several different times in different ways and still hasn't been resolved conclusively, but there's no obvious reason whybit aligns with the plane of the ecliptic. It doesn't prove anything other than possibly maybe the (((universe))) is anisotropic

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EvilUbie cute/twink :marseyhissing:

ElverGalarga 6mo ago #6387733

anisotropic

Isn't the universe anisotropic? The cosmic microwave background radiation (whatever the acryonym is) certainly is not uniformly dispersed. We've mapped out superclusters, and those aren't uniformly dispersed either.

:marseyhmm:

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ElverGalarga El/Rey EvilUbie 6mo ago #6387752

The universe is not homogenous on smaller scales, but according to the standard cosmological model, it should be be isotropic and homogeneous statistically on scales larger than 250 million light years.

Should be is doing some serious lifting there

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Cdace Dino/Dinos i fricking love Parasaurolophus so much :chudsaurolophuslove:

ElverGalarga 6mo ago #6387853

The universe is not homogenous

!chuds

:#chuditsover:

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RWBY Gambol/Shroud Chapose was a good admin :marseysummerrose:

Cdace 6mo ago #6387888

>The universe is not homo

Nah bro !chuds are back

:#chudsmug:

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EvilUbie cute/twink :marseyhissing:

ElverGalarga 6mo ago #6387787

Oh, but isn't that a useful basic assumption? It doesn't necessarily have to be true, but assuming it's true, then "such and such" follows. I guess the other clowns are people attacking the basic principles and wanting to supplant them with their own?

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ElverGalarga El/Rey EvilUbie 6mo ago #6388304

Yeah, it's what the generally accepted model tells us.

The axis of evil guys aren't for the most part attacking the standard model, just going over observations and saying "why is it like this when it should look like this?"

There are agendacels who want to prove their pet theory but I think most people doing research just want to understand it better

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PatriceOneal e/acc We went to a musical called "Oh Africa, Brave Africa". It was a laugh riot. ElverGalarga 6mo ago #6388319

I'm just asking questions bro :marseyschizowall:

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The_ACA The/The The EvilUbie 6mo ago #6387695

Ask those r-slurs to reconcile their shit with Blue/Red Shift, Standard Model of Particle Physics, Relativity, or Quantum Field Theory.

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DickButtKiss Sick/Piss F•R•I•E•N•D•S :marseynightmare:

The_ACA 6mo ago #6388002

All a bunch of frickin crap

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_sus ogre/bogre :parrotslow:

EvilUbie 6mo ago #6387873

How does this BIPOC not know what a point of reference is? If we were on another planet, it would also seem like everything is either moving toward or away from us.

that would be obvious, but that's not what that alignment between CMB and solar system "plane" of rotations is about

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EvilUbie cute/twink :marseyhissing:

_sus 6mo ago #6387884

What's it about, soosy? :marseylaying:

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_sus ogre/bogre :parrotslow:

EvilUbie 6mo ago #6388091

We [...] identify the axis of the residual Maximum Temperature Asymmetry (MTA) (after the dipole subtraction) of the [..] CMB temperature sky map. The estimator is based on considering the temperature differences between opposite pixels in the sky at various angular resolutions ([...]).

We compare the direction and magnitude of this asymmetry with three other cosmic asymmetry axes (α dipole, Dark Energy Dipole and Dark Flow) and find that the four asymmetry axes are abnormally close to each other.

We compare the observed MTA axis with the corresponding MTA axes of 10^4 gaussian isotropic simulated ILC maps (based on ΛCDM). The fraction of simulated ILC maps that reproduces the observed magnitude of the MTA asymmetry and alignment with the observed α dipole is in the range of 0.1% − 0.5% (depending on the resolution chosen for the CMB map). The corresponding magnitude+alignment probabilities with the other two asymmetry axes (Dark Energy Dipole and Dark Flow) are at the level of about 1%. We propose Extended Topological Quintessence as a physical model qualitatively consistent with this coincidence of directions.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1211.5915

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bananas zou/bisou/bisou

ElverGalarga 6mo ago #6389911

This is a really interesting comment but I think it's needlessly complex for explaining the Anthropic Principle

the simplest way to explain it is, for us to exist we have to exist somewhere that can support life, so it makes sense that the Earth/universe seems fine-tuned. If it couldn't support life we wouldn't be here talking about it. Maybe a trillion universes came and went before one finally popped up that could have conscious life in it.

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Wolverine We/Wuz I'm the Best there is at what I do, but what I do best isn't very nice bananas 6mo ago #6390051

wish this comment was here when i started reading this thread because the parent comment threw me in for a loop

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EvilUbie cute/twink :marseyhissing:

bananas 6mo ago #6390807

>For matter to exist there must be an environment in which it can exist. Ah, yes, there is some matter, and it's inside this universe, and... Yes, it does exist. Well done, chaps. :marseyclapping:

It still sounds like a meaningless position.

It "makes sense" that our solar system is "finely tuned" [coincidentally] for supporting life because the argument is tautological.

There's nothing wrong with tautological arguments, unless they're meaningless or don't offer anything insightful. With economics, we basically assume people do things the best they can with what they got, so if we see someone spending $80 on gas when there's a gas station nearby selling it for $60, then we assume that rational expectations still holds true. There's something else going on to explain their behavior. It's tautological but useful. I'm not seeing that with the anthropic principle.

Someone else described it as such:

The question the anthropic principle is trying to answer isn't "is it statistically unlikely that the universe contains life" - that question isn't really answerable, as we don't have access to other universes to compare our own to. The question it answers is "why is our universe habitable?" - if it weren't, then we wouldn't be here to ask the question.

It's tautological but not insightful.

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robynol_zombolotyl snuff/muff :!marseysquirt:

EvilUbie 6mo ago #6392608 Edited 6mo ago

The point is some crucicux will always come in and be like ”The odds of [life] occurring have to be so small that it's more statistically logical that God is more likely than anything else.”

But we don't really have any reason to think we know what the probability of life arising might be. Any environment we can observe necessarily is one we can survive in, and we can deduce nothing about how likely or unlikely that is from observing it.