Another day another 'how could NATO do this to Ukraine' post

I'll try to select different comments than usual to avoid the topic being too boring, hopefully the post will still be interesting

Europe has already delivered 30% more and pledged 100% more aid than the US. US also has delivered only 10% of the total aid they promised a year ago.

(89 children)

Honest question: If someone wanted to provide an exactly equal response to NK joining the fight, what exactly would that be?

Poland being allowed to join on the Ukrainian side. They have a vested interest in keeping Ukraine free and welcoming them into NATO and the EU.

Frick off from Poland joining this shit show. If you want pack your bags and go there but don't try to actively drug us I to this

: All right, I guess we can sacrifice Poland for this.

: What, no! Frick off, we're not doing it!

Allowing Israel to send troops to Ukraine. That's the only thing I can think of that's even remotely comparable.

: Fine, fine... What are the chances of us convincing Israel to attack Russia?

: ...what?

Russia has made consistent ground gains over the course of the war, especially this year. There are currently calls to lower the conscription age in Ukraine so they can rotate frontline troops who are simply losing to attrition.

It helps no one by minimising Russia's achievements, more so if you're wanting to garner public support for a stronger response.

Honestly I don't think a lot of these people are deliberately minimising it. They genuinely believe it to be the case because they just believe what reddit/ the news tells them

people saw Russia get pantsed in the first couple of weeks, and have been stuck in that mindset ever since.

People completely forgot the prediction of the 2023 counter offensive where Leopards and Bradley were supposed to sweep away any Russian resistance made up of demotivated and barely equipped soldiers. The world war 1 trench were some outdated fortification the Russians would never hold.

It's almost like the media has been filled with lies for quite some time.

Tons of reddit and twitter users is starting to shift from 'lol Russia' to 'OMG Russia is the strongest country ever, NATO has to face them off now here or we'll all die'. This not only shows how easily r-slurs shift their opinions it also shows how easily they fall for propaganda since they are starting to unironically parrot russian propaganda in their frenzy

They aren't all going to die. I know reddit like to believe it'll just be lambs to the slaughter but ofc not

The big problem I see that also affects the West is that those surviving troops and their leader will have gained incredibly valuable modern war combat experience - which can have major advantages with things like N v S Korean wars or escalation from Russia or China or Iran which seems to be on the horizon in our lifetimes

This isn't something to be taken lightly, it's obvious the West is distancing from Ukraine directly (mostly the US due to their impending election) but allowed N Korean troops this experience and takeaway is a much more strategic blunder by NATO/the allies

North Korea is also now a danger to the West

Free country where men are being kidnapped and forced into trenches every single day. While actual military officers and people with connections chill far behind the front lines.

Congrats, you learned what a draft is.

A very dumb argument about whether forceful conscriptions exists under democracy

NATO will not do any of those things over a non-NATO territory. Each of those options would be considered a direct attack on Russia by NATO and a major escalation of this conflict, likely to a full world war, which is definitely not in NATOs (or any one else's) best interest.

Lots of debate and here

Not to justify Russia, or say Ukraine is wrong to defend itself, but imagine how the US/European countries would feel about Russia gifting long range (but non-nuclear) missiles to say, Syria, during the NATO intervention.

Russia has done this multiple times already

NATO may not get involved, particularly depending on the US election results, but I think we're getting close to the point where some NATO members very well might decide they need to get more directly involved. Any signs of a North Korean breakthrough would certainly trigger some panic in eastern Europe.

If the US is not getting involved, NATO is not getting involved. NATO is the US.

It may surprise you but it is possible for individual members of an alliance to act without the approval or involvement of other members.

Western Europe won't care that much probably since they are far away from Russia and no Eastern European state will ever dare to attack Russia without Daddy Merica's protection

This is a common misconception. 'Collective defense' and 'stability beyond its borders' are the two primary mission statements.

NATO has done many of these things before, the vast majority of which were in non-NATO countries, including closing the skies.

What is different this time is that this is the first time the aggressor has been allowed to dictate the terms of the conflict. NATO does not have a strategy to deal with muscovy.

Escalation != stability.

Appeasement != stability.

This started a long-ish argument, but one point stands out

Also, unlike with Israel, Ukraine doesn't even have any treaties with ANYONE in NATO that would even vaguely imply that there is a duty on either side to help in the case of an invasion from any party, not just Russia. Literally nobody in NATO is obligated in any legal sense to defend Ukraine. You can argue the moral point all day, but IMO "the threat of nuclear Armageddon" overrides any moral argument that can be made. The entire world's destruction isn't worth the autonomy of one country's government. That fricking sucks, I get it.

If Iran declared war on Israel, at the least the US would be brought in because we are actual military allies of Israel. I'm not sure off the top of my head where European countries stand but I'm pretty sure Germany would also be pulled into the war, at the least. We have an actual agreement with Israel to defend it from foreign invasion that isn't done by terrorist proxies, and an agreement to arm them for defence against those proxies.

Seriously, aside from all the jokes about America's love for Israel, people on the internet seem to be genuinely tripped by the idea that America directly helps Israel and not Ukraine, despite them being two different countries in two different parts of the world with different histories and external policies.

They won't.

Hungary and Slovakia will find some procedural move to block a response. Germany wont' do anything because Scholz doesn't want to risk his future boardmember position at Rosneft.

Republicans in America's congress will stall because Poland was historically part of the Soviet Union, so it rightfully belongs to russia, or some bs excuse

And if Trump wins, he'll be negotiating Poland's surrender without the input of any polish officials.

If Russia attacks Poland NATO won't do anything because Hungary will say no and obviously America will instantly back down and apologize to Orban

Each? So, giving Ukraine Taurus and Tomahawks would be considered a "direct attack" on Russia even though it very clearly isn't? Or is it actually you who thinks this, even though it's blatantly false? Doesn't that mean you are here, now to pimp Russian propaganda on their behalf? Remember that we don't have to accept your crazy premise that supplying Taurus and/or Tomahawk is a "direct" attack on Russia, you just asserted that as if it was "fact".

That is absolutely not a "direct attack" on Russia, no matter how you attempt to spin it. Ukraine gets weapons, just like Russia gets weapons from its allies, and Ukraine fires them. Ukraine attacks. Not NATO. Don't fabricate a double standard in order to blame NATO for "aggression". That is the most Kremliniest talking point ever.

You're going to argue that they are exceptional weapons. That still doesn't make it a "direct attack" by NATO.

Source? Source?!

thank you for saying this... people's brains are rotten form Marvel movies they think it's so simple

Downmarseyd

NATO shouldn't be used in wars with non NATO members.

You can argue about if NATO siding with Bosnia was the morally correct choice, but it was an incorrect use of the defensive alliance.

NATO's defensive pact wasn't affected by bombing Serbia because Serbia couldn't do anything about it so there was no risk for any NATO country involved

Allow them to continue to feed the grinder in Ukraine while the West collects data on drone warfare. Same as they have been doing with Russian troops.

: One of the best ideas I ever had.

Exactly. I'm expecting that Biden will drop most of the restrictions on the use of US weapons on Nov 6 no matter which way it goes.

That's my hope too frankly

What country is going to send their boys to this meatgrinder?

If they want to go as part of a volunteer army, I think they should be allowed. I'm sure more than a few active duty soldiers in NATO countries would love to go if it didn't mean leaving the armed forces to do so.

They already accept volunteers. No country is going to send troops until it is absolutely necessary. It is political suicide.

This goes on for a little more, but basically foreign soldiers can't wait to die in Ukraine and the only thing stopping them is their army not allowing them to join Ukraine's army

I agree, regardless of the state of the NK troops. Another country has entered the war and provided manpower. A reasonable response would be for a neighbouring Ukrainian ally to do likewise.

Name an elected western leader that is going to send their 18-25 year old men to fight and die for Ukraine while Ukrainian men aged 18-25 sit in cafes and drink coffee? Until Zelensky starts drafting males 18 and up (which he can't do because he will be overthrown) NOBODY is sending troops to Ukraine.

You underestimate how much the nations neighbouring Russia hate Russia. I do not believe Ukraine would be required to draft all of their fighting aged before someone would send volunteer units. The French have also offered before. Perhaps call them out on this.

You're also underestimating that Ukraine is the second most hated country in Eastern Europe, right after Russia

They are already fighting. In Kursk. Which every ally defied as a legitimate battlefield. What's the difference between Donbas and Kursk in this sense? Zelenskiy is fairly pissed because someone already leaked his Tomahawk request which was supposed to be super confidential with the USA. Now he has to deal with nobody giving a darn about another country's soldiers fighting. He goddarn went to fight INSIDE of Russia to pool troops from East and have something work, but Russia is sending North Koreans. So now he has to fight up north and the east isn't getting any easier. I would be pissed at my allies too at this point, where for a year you are constantly asking, begging, proving something and have no improvements.

I unironically thought this is a pro-russian comment at first

I've already seen a pretty big step away from the US / Switzerland over arms transfers being blocked.

I think the wake up call for a lot of European countries was when the The UK was being blocked from sending Its own domestically produced weapons because they had some US components, meanwhile Russia is launching cruise missiles that contain US components to bomb ukrainian cities.

People keep saying this, but the reality is that Europe is not close to being a unified entity. Central, Western, and Eastern have too many differing opinions. They struggle to act on their own due to scale, and they struggle to act together because of the competing interests. They will never be able to act as a unified force without third-party coercion from a country that isn't embroiled in their internal squabbles.

This is what redditors don't understand, eastern and western europe don't like each other. Eastern europeans countries generally like and trust America a lot more than they like and trust anyone in the wastern side of the continent. If there's a schism in NATO it's much more likely that we will all side with America rather than France or Germany

Yes because france is leading the way with ukraine funding, wait they are not.

Even the Netherlands have delivered more than 5 times as much per GDP as France (https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)

Lmao

France doesn't need US permission to deploy its own troops. It could have done that if it wanted to.

What it needs is US support if Russia retaliates against France.

France has its own nuclear weapons. There is nothing stopping them from going boots on the ground in Ukraine independent of NATO other than the fact that they do not want to because it would be political suicide.

Redditors have such a simplistic view of the world

France is doing plenty… The French government and French military have a huge advantage in the fact that they don't have disclose most of its military spending or foreign aid spending.

Ya this has been disproven. They just are not doing that much

Europe follows the US for better or worse. That's their choice, right or wrong.

I'd say it's without a doubt the wrong choice. This overreliance on someone else's leadership (and military resources) will bite Europe in the butt (as it has), and vice-versa it will lead Europe into armed conflicts it has no interest in.

Remember when America went to invade Iraq with an utterly laughable justification, and when European countries politely declined the invitation to come as well, they were treated like villains? Yeah, good times. What a partnership.

Skill issue, we gave America troops even without being in NATO at the time. This is why we're in NATO now

Ukraine is not a US ally.

But EU is and abandoning Ukraine will have fundamental impact on the relationship

I'm surprised Ukraine hasn't lost its patience with the half-assed-everything from the USA and EU, and stopped all hydrocarbon transit into EU. I think they're timing it for the colder months so once there's a backup of hydrocarbons in the pipelines, stuff freezes up and permanently takes out Russia's extraction capabilities. Western parties are waaay too complacent and comfortable due to how diplomactic and tactful Urkaine has been -- all things considered.

Ukraine's attempt at freezing Europe will be just as effective as Russia's attempt has been. Zero, because Europe doesn't even get cold winters any longer Also, Europe will start getting it's shit from Russia again...

If I were Zelensky I would start to play dirty with NATO .. ok no support no fricking fuel and we are building nukes right this moment

.. probably his next move and I wouldn't blame him .. survival

Speedrun into getting bombed by both Russia and NATO at the same time

They'll figure it out one way or another. All the tankies dismissing Zelenski as a beggar forget how USSR collapsed.

I don't even know what this means

Everyone's waiting on next week's election results. The outcome will shape our planet's future for the next four years.

Utterly based

Rightfully so. It's insane how there was no response from us to literal north fricking korea invading our european soil.

It's Ukraine's soil. Not NATO soil.

I don't understand where this whole 'Europe must act as a one' shit came from. Countries here would gladly spit in the face of most of the other european states

I just wanna point out how fragile geopolitical relationships are right now and how ignorant this statement is of that broadly

Congo, Iran, Lebanon, the weird stuff going on in Eastern Europe, the literal war we are already talking about in this post that has billions of dollars of aid from the USA alone, the stuff going on in Gaza that caused the stuff going on in Iran and Lebanon and kinda Yemen too iirc.

Why the frick would Zelensky care what happens in Yemen? He's at war, Yemen is the last shit he cares about right now

If Israel deployed North Koreans people would care though

Deploy a legion of South Korean troops? WTF are we supposed to do!

The same thing we did in Yugoslavia, Iraq and Libya? Send in the airforce, and enforce a no-fly zone, mandate a peace treaty that goes to pre 2014 borders, and if Russia doesn't take it, then we escalate.

Yes! Bomb Serbia again!

I feel bad for Ukraine, I really do. I wonder if the circumstances would have been different if they would've joined NATO many years ago.

Riddle for the ages I guess