I know this is a popular r*ddit topic, but I'm curious if rdrama bussy conniseurs overwhelmingly have an internal monologue. Despite being tards, the average user here is definitely less tarded than the average r*dditor. The vast majority of people I've seen online claiming they have no internal monologue are foids, which makes sense tbh.
Do you have an internal monologue? And have you accepted that you're a subhuman r-slur if you don't?
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Make a third option that says I talk to myself AND I'm a subhuman r-slur
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Just vote for both
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That's cheating but I guess it will have to do
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I didn't even know this was possible.
This is clearly the true path.
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The app crashes every time I try to add another poll option
@Aevann
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it straight up shuts down or is there an error like "429 Too many requests"?
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It just crashes, and the standard android app crash error pops up. Now that I'm sober it specifically happens when I try to add another poll option with a Marsey in it.
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Ok I tested it and it seems to be crashing when you press a button to add emojis for some reason. I'll check why is that happening later. Also I don't think you can add another poll option after you submitted the poll. At least I can't
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When the voice of your internal monologue is this
Also, same
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Not only do I have internal monologue, but I can't ever get it to shut the frick up for a moment so I can actually enjoy something in peace.
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Same, but liquor helps with that. It's half the reason I drink.
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May you conquer your demons brother
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ALL of you have literal demons inside of you.
Demons DO enter your body through the anus, because the mixture of pain and pleasure caused by the immoral act of sodomy causes so much psychic confusion that a portal to your soul opens up in your anus for the demon to enter.
This is how demons get inside of everyone. They conflate pleasure with pain. They also conflate truth with untruth.
The anus is only ONE way that demons enter a human body, BUT IT IS ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENT ONES.
This is why so many of you have suffered from pedophilia and sodomy as children. The demons spread to you in this way, in the same way that vampirism spreads through bites.
Reject these homosexual demons and drive them out of your body. I implore you. The world will be a better place. I will forgive you if you expel the demons from your body and stop causing harm to the world around you.
This message is brought to you by truth and decency and concern for your well being as well as the well being of the world around, NOT "bigotry" or "ignorance".
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OUT!
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Thank you brother. One day hopefully. Once you see and smell shit like this the demons get very noisy.
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I hate hobos so much it's unreal. Like dude, take a shower and stop sleeping in the dirt for once and your life will stop sucking.
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Look at all these bums lounging around. Get a job!
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Those sunburns they get are so gross, they're like constantly about to peel
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Ikr? Look at this bum, fricker couldn't stop beating his peepee in public to save his life.
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Terrible chafing. Many such cases!
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If you ever want to talk about it or vent, let me know. We can go on groomercord. People like you are he heroes to me.
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It's the reason I drink. And unfortunately it only helps some unless I decide to obliterate myself, at which point I have to deal with a hangover the next day.
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In the words of the esteemed philosopher and drunk
KanyeYE:Jump in the discussion.
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real schizoid hours
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Breathe in, breathe out. Notice that while you were doing that, you didn't have any verbal thoughts, they were entirely displaced by the immediate perceptions of breathing*.
Keep breathing in and out. Notice that you do have thoughts in-between breaths, that's OK, notice that and keep breathing. Notice that you keep forgetting to breathe manually and go onto thought trains, that's also OK but you get better with training and at some point such runaway thought trains are likely to go straight into the sleep territory anyway.
Bonus points for doing breathing in the stomach-breast-shoulders order.
Don't be afraid of the old meme about "you're now breathing manually", your main problem will be keeping breathing manually, the moment you forget to you start breathing automatically and having thoughts.
[*] I would not recommend trying to learn how to have thoughts while breathing, just because it's an option on the table. It's probably a very bad idea. I have not heard about anyone trying to do that and their results, in particular I haven't heard "I've put some effort into it and failed, and kept breathing automatically", which suggests that it's a very bad idea.
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All those words won't bring daddy back.
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uh as far as I know people can think while intentionally breathing? like yeah it’s a breath meditation thing but people still think. Which kinda proves the point? It’s just kinda tangential, you can think about anything anyway
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I meant that it's really easy not to think while fully focusing on breathing.
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I've always appreciated this perspective.
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Yeah, that's simple and good!
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there’s no difference. You are attached unnecessarily to these ideas. It’s all part of the empty flow. Relax and care about anything else.
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I mean that's what I normally do, but it's a pain in the butt when I'm just trying to watch a movie or I have to restart a song I wanted to listen to because my mind trailed off on the meeting I just had.
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sure but that’s just being bored. Maybe the meeting sucked
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Sorry, I didn't describe that well. I was trying to listen to a song while driving after the meeting and my mind kept drifting back to some suspicions I have about the organization based on it.
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sounds dramatic! very normal anyway, one thing more interesting than other
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Not really, just typical consulting crap.
There are countless interesting things in this world. Sometimes I just want to get absorbed in a darn song, lol.
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I'm aware that thought is largely nonverbal, and meaning is pressed into words and thereby loses fidelity. The only pure meaning lies in being.
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Thinking with words allows you to use complex terms as shorthand for complex concepts and to articulate them.
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False; the complex concepts exist in any case. It merely allows you to record them, which to be fair you did specify.
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Your inner thoughts are limited by your ability to retain at any given moment. Pure meaning thoughts are in concrete and malliable upon reflection, words are more rigid against degradation and loss of coherence, allowing larger amounts of thought to be retained; a longer train of thought is possible.
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which is why a blackout drunk is unpuzzled while drunk, but oblivious once sober
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Hmm. I'll think on that. "Words allow a longer train of thought." Maybe.
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fairly sure the opposite tbh
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yeah that's certainly a possibility. Like for real. I've been thinking a lot about how Twitter converged on roughly the length of a bit of dialogue in Shakespeare.
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You are a stragg and you are allowing your thoughts to be limited by your vocabulary because it makes you feel smart. That is all.
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Well done getting through to him. You succeeded where I could not.
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words are just as limited by memory if not more so. remember a childhood play in the first and tell me that’s mediated directly by words. what was the sentence you remembered? First word? No.
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not really true. just do the concepts. also simple! they both coexist anyway, not like the idea goes away with word
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"If we leave this country, our bones will brittle." The line I had to say in my first grade play. I can't remember what play it was or what I was playing, but I rehearsed that one line so many times that I remember it to this day.
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yeah, we can remember words. We can also remember experiences.
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Frick, I responded to the wrong comment. Was meant to be a response to:
I don't remember anything about that experience except those words and the fact that my mother thought the line was hilarious. Those words outlived the rest of the memory for me.
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Meaning of words is enriched through their exchange, at which point your words can take on additional meaning in the mind of another.
Furthermore, thought can also be considered feeling given shape and direction, both of which are very difficult to come by without language. Language cannot fully encapsulate feeling but its formation allows our minds to make sense of our observations.
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no. Language is for personal communication. Mathematicians and artists do not make sense of things with words. What came first - a new concept or the word for it? Often centuries pass between the two. You’re wrong.
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Please explain to me how you think about any given subject without some degree of language association.
Language is literally math, lol.
That concept was formulated with words. Just because a unique descriptor has not yet been coined does not mean language is not involved.
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Say I’m dreaming about fricking someone. There aren’t any words involved, just sensations and ideas and relations. Or say you’re programming a large complex thing. Words would make a big mess.
not reflexive. math isn’t language. intuition for complex ideas and big things doesn’t come via words. it’s dumb
no? ravens and monkeys can do ten step logic over periods of hours. they do not have language. They have the same sorts of brains as we do.
ok r-slur what’s the word you think of when you’re tired. or do ya just feel a bit sleepy? dumbass
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You are still present in your dream. You have thought in your dream, albeit far more blended with the "reality" of the dream and more difficult to distinguish.
Also, I distinguish between thought and feeling. This might be where we diverge.
Yes, it is. This isn't something I'm just throwing out there. Go look at language theory, finite-state automata, formal grammars, etc.
Just because you aren't explicitly thinking out the exact words does not mean intuitive comprehension of complex topics is not emergent from language.
Primates have a neocortex so they might have the mental precursors of what could be considered "language". There's still plenty of debate over whether or not KoKo was genuinely communicating or not.
That would be a composite of feelings.
You're getting awfully worked up over this lol.
Using descriptive variable and function names is absolutely integral to programming. Using single-letter variables is a stupid webshit thing.
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Sure? You didn’t disagree. words aren’t mattering there. You could still find ur way through a puzzle without a word
set theory is not language. numbers are not language. The grammar of the formalization kinda is but not really.
hehe whoopsie looks like that’s thinking. Without exact words.
again ravens can do complex tasks as can monkeys. and it doesn’t, words communicate, not be
huh? They don’t have language. if you’re arguing monkeys developed internal language before external that makes no sense at all. And ravens can also do plenty complex tasks enough that it doesn’t matter!
I guess artists just paint with big composites of feeling then. video g*mers just composite their feelings into the RTS or screen.
I mean architecting complex things not actually typing it. The variable names come way after... not when you do the whole interactions of the things. not words he he ha
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You're taking a very literal approach to language so I can see where the disconnect exists. At this point we're just talking past one another.
A raven's capacity to solve a problem via operant conditioning is not a reflection of thought as I'm describing it. Again, this is getting into a discussion of what constitutes sapience.
How exactly can language be formed if those exchanging it do not already possess internal language, i.e. the capacity to abstract ideas?
Look, the rest of the stuff I've been discussing is pretty wishy-washy, but this particular subject is something I majored in. You are objectively incorrect in asserting that mathematics is not language. This is a very deep subject so I would suggest going to research it yourself because whatever explanation I could produce would be a shallow, incomplete facsimile of the full issue.
...have you ever architected software before? If so, you'd realize how ridiculous this is.
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the topic was words. If you’re saying “we think in language but not in words” then that’s kinda vacuous and I don’t think it works like language but not words certainly.
what? They do complex problems. Not “operant conditioning”. What?
this is one of the places we disagree. don’t just assume it.
I’m also smart and know mathematicians who disagree with your statement? Smh
I have, and the complexities in said designs and interactions are not in words lol. Variable names are not the structure of code.
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I was watching a thing today on amazonian tribesm*n who speak a language without any concept of numbers, they have only terms for a very few, a few more and a lot.
If you show them 5 things and ask them to place the same number of a different thing beside it they can't do it, spooky stuff tbh
Language may be more fundamental to our cognition than you're giving it credit for
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that isn’t language. that’s the fact that every child practiced counting in school for five years straight. Can you make a flint blade by chipping with a rock? My guess is they do know how to do some form of counting, but are unfamiliar with the way they were prompted ... tribesmen haven’t done word problems or been to school ... and there’s a ... language barrier... they definitely can count baskets and deer
even weak Sapir whorf is commonly contested. Amazon documentaries aren’t actually great sources or usually accurate... you are an adult. You could learn new skills and concepts if you wanted to. Tribesmen can too. This isn’t a “language” thing it’s a “lack of practice” thing. Like go learn to play guitar! It’s hard, you fail at first. Ditto for them. Language isn’t the thing, it’s experience in abstract counting for the purpose of demonstrating knowledges
trans lives matter
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... false!
The program runs correctly regardless of whether or not it is readable to the human.
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It's integral to programming because it aids in developer maintainence of said program. If you're talking about compilation, then that is irrelevant to the discussion.
No, it just runs. Whether or not it runs "correctly", as in according to the intent of its design, is influenced by how well it is written and maintained. Someone using single-letter variables while programming something complex will very likely not product a program that runs "correctly".
Furthermore, in terms of the mathematics of language, those single-letter variables are still words.
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Do you understand this: that the people who wrote the first operating systems did so with registers that only had names like a1, a2, a3? Have you written assembly language?
The computing machine only works in logic but within that logic it is powerful. And there is no need for names because the being, the doing of the thing, is the name. A truer name than the name of the function, befitting only human ears for humans gazing into a complex world we were not designed to understand.
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ThOse THINgS are jsut SENSORy INPUT not MEaNING /s
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you’re an unthinking machine responding to inputs. except when you say words that’s magical and self reflection consciousness meta :o. this is why paintings and music are boring, and why those who appreciate them do so by saying lots of paragraphs in their heads about it
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can't tell if sarcastic
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whenever I stop talking I become totally unfeeling. my throat was clogged one day so I couldn’t subvocalize and I just left my kids in the park while I got cigs because I didn’t love them because that’s words.
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I'm unsure if I agree with you... but
@UpvoteIfYouCope 's phrasing here doesn't seem quite right.
I don't know that I believe that language is necessary for our minds to make sense of our observations, buuut, it is necessary to record complex thoughts to be able to return to them. Is there some meaning that can only be uncovered through multiple sessions of self-reflection? Possibly.
On the other hand the symbolic existed before the symbols developed formal grammar. In fact this is why meaning transcends the words for them. If I make a mark signifying the end product of reflection, and return to that mark, words have not entered the picture.
From the a deindividuated perspective, the concept doesn't exist until there is a word for it.
Language is for interpersonal communication. There is no need to transmit meaning to yourself. (Unless it is, as I said, a series of sessions of self-reflection.)
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eh you can probably remember complex thought without language. so even for that not necessary
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Math is strings of statements and definitions. They're words in their own way.
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mathematical intuition and problem solving simply doesn’t proceed solely through words,
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All intuition goes through some kind of mathematical symbolism which is just a type of language.
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Yes, but first you get the intuition and then you write it down in mathematical symbols. Bigger concepts can be the result of this process repeated many times with the smaller concepts they are built on.
Considering how often when we do "intuition" part we also do the "formalizing in words" part it makes sense that for some people these 2 processes have become pretty much one.
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We do formalize but what we formalize is already at least partially in words before we formalize it usually.
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no it doesn’t. The symbolism is absolutely involved but most of it is not “through or by” symbol. smdh
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I didn't mean literally "by symbol" as in plus, minus, etc. I mean through definitions and stuff. Maybe symbolism is the wrong word but when you're "intuiting" something in math you're thinking of it in terms definitions and chains of implications, which is absolutely making use of mathematical language. Only very basic stuff like simple operations we either do naturally (like counting small numbers or some geometry problem) or memorize (like basic time tables, maybe common derivatives but a derivative is inherently loaded with language already, so it's questionable) are done without some kind of language.
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okay I’m not disputing that symbolism and mathematical formalists are involved, although they may be given too much importance
I’m saying a significant and probably supermajority part of said intuition and mathematical deduction is not conducted solely through words - but through other thought and intuition, which isn’t directly a language.
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distinction between natural or memorization and artificial thinking is false. There’s no separation there. All a mix and many things. language is neither special, or more important. one can grasp something without word
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I don’t think there’s a difference.
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The only purpose of a word is to point to a shared understanding. The creation of subculture jargon is where language is in action in a pure, useful form.
I don't think that people without the ability to print words into their conscious demesne are subhuman in any way: they can generally reflect upon their being if prompted by another, or by (for instance) a ritual like a church service where they're told to sit down and think about what it is they want to say to God.
In a liminal space like this one, language lacks the firmament of orthodoxy. It is this firmament of orthodoxy that makes language a complete impediment to understanding. (This much, at least, made it worth knowing zummi directly.)
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The poll question is a joke. Everyone has an internal monologue. Language is a necessary component of human thought. Language is the fundamental method of abstraction through which we build a mental model of our observed world.
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the kinesthetic sense would like a word
edit: I don't disagree that the poll question is, eh, well, it demonstrates the failure of language rather directly, doesn't it?
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I would consider that would be a feeling, not a thought. Thoughts are necessarily structured abstractions of observed reality, i.e. the structuring of a feeling or a set of feelings. Thought flows from feeling, and in turn can incite more feeling. This is the premise of "mindfulness".
I suppose that's where the disconnect exists between our comments.
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no difference at all
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Says you.
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no categorical difference whatsoever. psychology is fake lmao. what’s the difference?
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but now extend the 'language' of feeling across the logical, the imperative, the contemplative, the symbolic dreamscape, and (I hope) come to understand that these are the true arenas of the life of the mind.
Words are just the social game.
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There is no "language of feeling" within the model I'm describing. The act of
This is word fluff.
Spare me your condescension. I'm describing a different school of thought within theory of mind.
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ah, but tres terrible, there is only one reality proper, eh?
A model is self-confessedly of your own creation, da? Models are imitations of the things they are meant to represent.
You decline to introspect? I assure you I meant specific things with each of them. One moment...
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Not being able to connect thoughts with words means that you lack self-reflection. You can't think "I just thought that" because there's no way to make the thought you thought do the double duty of being thought and being perceived.
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I can see, in my minds eye, an image of myself having the thought which led to this post.
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why can’t you just do a hacking reflectorino without the words
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Why can't you reproduce without having DNA that can be copied and also used as an instruction? Why can't you make a hammer that can be disassembled and used to make another hammer, without a stronger hammer used to disassemble the hammer?
I'm not saying this shit is hard impossible my friend Horatio, but it's unlikely. So unlikely it could be a solution to the Fermi paradox btw.
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ehh so this is what I talk about Lacan's symbolic order for:
you've got two tribal societies in proximity whose feud is ended in a marriage ceremony where an art piece is created and divided into two parts, with both towns taking one part. This is a symbolic recording of a story in which the words are irrelevant, if they exist at all. (This example is based on the use of for instance totem poles in native American treaty-making.)
The chiefs might talk about peace and might talk about the joining of their families but that's all implicit.
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DNA isn’t super relevant! because it, and brains, existed for a billion years before homo sapien spoken words did.
you can actually make hammers that can disassemble and duplicate themselves without a stronger hammer. “flint arrowheads” and wood would like a word with you.
thinking is in words in the same way computers compute in their UI. it is not.
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Did that sound good in your head? Because no shit bucko.
RNA was the first quine, DNA was a more robust approach, the important thing is that you have something that can be duplicated verbatim and that can also be used as a recipe for building things. So you don't get a "stronger hammer that disassembles this hammer to build a copy" issue.
Sure there are occasions when the laws of the world just so happen to allow you to break out a piece of obsidian with a blunt rock or something. This makes me believe that we are alone in the universe, probably.
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humans can duplicate actions and sensations without words anyway.
how is this fermi related? origin of life rare?
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Incorrect! It merely means that an outside observer cannot verify the self-reflection. As I am observing myself, it would be easy to fool myself into thinking the words are the thoughts. This level of meta-introspection is fraught with errors due to the recursive nature. Don't trouble yourself too much about thoughts thinking thoughts and double duty and so on.
In any case I didn't say I couldn't connect thoughts with words. I merely understand that the thoughts come first, and the words come as an artifact of communication.
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I believe that all introspection is caused by having thoughts-words looped back through the language center. You can't have basic introspection otherwise. See also https://rdrama.net/post/20557/do-you-have-an-internal-monologue/535169/?context=1
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ok give an example
and why can people think about things without words? When one ponders a discontinuous function, what words represent the gap? Or slope of a line? Or a beautiful woman?
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I think that's profoundly, profoundly wrong.
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k
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has this guy meditated once? how would that even work? What’s the words that makes it all up? What sentence is looped? How is that different from a normal thought or whatever it is? What?
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Dude between the three of you,
@ArachnoLibrarian, and 
@UpvoteIfYouCope I have someone who can't think if not in words all the time and if the ability to make words fails you sorta cease like one of those halloween balloons flopped over, but nevertheless sees reality a lot closer to me than the other two do:
Someone (Arachno) who seems to think that thought only happens in words (whereas you understand that you must keep your words close to retain your call it emotional essence, but that other processes of thought continue)
and someone who thinks language is math (whereas because you understand this part of your process, that you must subvocalize to keep yourself being, understand the limitations of the approach to assuming that because you can describe a grammar with math, you have understood the essence of language instead of merely its outline).
The Internet is madness. I don't know that it's possible to reconcile any of these fragments of reality but they are endlessly fascinating. Truly God is Great. I wish you all well I'm just too old to try and strip the condescension.
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The observer can verify intelligence by other means such as watching ravens understand water displacement or logic games. they do not speak English do they
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Anything that can’t be verified doesn’t exist
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That is a valid school of thought in my book actually
it's just, you know
kinda useless and impractical
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Based and Descartespilled
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Descartes is bad and wouldn’t even agree with the above
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Absolutely incorrect
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I have encountered your type before. Because you cannot understand meaning without words you will never believe that there are those of us who experience the world this way. A fundamental limitation. /shrug
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Words take a single, boring meaning and turn them into a meaning + every other interpretation of the words. It is truly the wordless thinkers who are stifled, incapable of experiencing reality metaphorically.
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... yes. The multiplicity of meanings, and those who can seek the useful overlaps. This is literacy, or as I'm forced to call it as the Internet becomes more and more illiterate, deep literacy. The ability to finish a book almost.
This is a good question. I'm not sure I agree. The understanding of metaphor does not require words. Only relations, and the ability to point to them. Animals communicate focus and understand their relation with one another. They could not communicate their understanding except through a shared glance.
A shared glance can do a lot.
So I'm undecided.
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🖕
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what?
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Imagine wasting your brain on thinking thoughts instead of listening to the symphonies of God.
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if you had written "being the symphonies of God" I would consider this comment the most basedpilled of the bunch.
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Jam rusty nails into your face nerd.
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the trivial lashing out of the weak-minded
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It doesn't matter if I'm r-slurred, I have the strength of my faith. 😇
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I judge the strength of your faith to be weak if you're so easily provoked to vicious words
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Only God can judge the strength of my faith. I forgive you for presuming though, now shut the frick up and shove nails in your face.
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lmao well ya got spirit I'll give ya that
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I am God.
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helllLO nurse!
I knew I'd find some of you around here. Good choice of name. Good luck, if ye are an active Aspirant.
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Undoubtedly and as we all know the only people who actually have a soul are those that have this inner monologue.
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The only reason it's not ethical to hurt someone is because they have a soul/internal experiences and can experience pain. How about we collect all the people without souls and eat them?
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