"Trump isn't a fascist. He's just an old man inflicting his narcissistic delusional consensus reality on the entire nation, backed by white supremacist militias which he has already used to attempt to overturn an election."
distinctions WithouT differences
@Impassionata asked me to handle @carpathianflorist 's cowardly request to define "tds," and while at first I was annoyed that Impassionata punted to me, the task has been growing in my mind.
There is this problem with predictive models: if you modeled Trump as an authoritarian dictator type from day one, you were carrying certain preconceptions which may or may not predict Trump's behavior on any given day. It became fashionable, in this postmodern way, to talk about "two movies on one screen." It became fashionable to view Trumpian 'fascist vibes' as an affectation and not an indication. After all, Trump didn't actually attempt to lock Hillary Clinton up.
This notion of 'kayfabe' made politics virtual in a way that would have stunned Baudrillard. Trump, it could be said, was only LARPing fascism, but (so went the theory of the people who denied the validity of the fascist indicators) this was only an elaborate ruse by which to draw leftists into overreacting to the fascist vibes and further discrediting them and empowering Trump.
The net effect was the term "Trump Derangement Syndrome," borrowing from "Bush Derangement Syndrome" which was a traumatic response to the machinery of war being leveraged in post-9/11 America. A large number of people described Bush as a fascist, and this was simply not true.
But it is true that the latent fascism of the United States accelerated under Bush. It is true that surveillance became normalized and the police state became deeply established.
I think much harm has been done by a misreading of Umberto Eco's ur-fascism. Seeking a simplistic definition of fascism and seeking to understand leftists in their own words, would-be commentariat, the chatterati, descended on Eco's article and misunderstood it.
It's also worth noting Jacques Ellul's assertion of "The Victory of Hitler," that regardless of the demise of Nazi Germany, there was no undoing the power of the military-industrial complex, that it could be tethered to a racist political movement at any point. This is the 'ur-fascism' lurking in the background of politics since 1945.
So there's a difference between the latent tendencies towards fascism, the introduction of the "pledge of allegiance" to classrooms, and the development of an actual racist violent movement.
It's more or less indisputable that Eco's ur-fascism exists in American politics. The question is whether or not a movement is active in its pursuit of power, a racist movement, a violent movement, a movement around a strongman.
Which is all to say that there is precedent for "Trump Derangement Syndrome" to describe an overreaction, a label for leftists who are 'taking the bait.'
But this is about communication of the danger. There were many, many points before Hitler's complete control of the police state. The historian says: this movement, Trumpism, bears many of the markers (but not all) of other movements with authoritarian demagogues. It's reasonable to expect that this is a danger to the continued stability of the United States, a danger to democracy, a risk of a purge of undesirables.
Indeed, the actual fact of the matter is that the child separation occurring in immigration processing centers was a deliberate cruelty (and that any separations which occurred under Obama were not inflicted as a regular punishment but out of concern for child trafficking; a distinction with a difference.) This cruelty of Stephen Miller was one of a large number of events which occurred which could not reasonably be said to be 'kayfabe.'
So there is all of this smoke, and there are all of these people who habitually engaged in denialism about that smoke. "That's not smoke, it's just kayfabe." "That's not smoke, it's just a LARP."
And prior to January 6th, perhaps there was limited evidence that Trump would actually engage dictator mode. But this refusal to accept the results of an election is the act of a tyrant. It's the act of a tyrant who is attached to a white supremacist movement which glorifies violence.
It's a fire.
So I ask you the question: who has been deranged by Trump? The people who reacted reasonably to the presence of a fire and called it a fire, even though the denialists called them deranged in their urgent reaction to the presence of a real threat?
Or the people who engaged in denialism about the fact of that fire?
Again, this is simply a matter of fact: Trump is a tyrant, a dictator, an authoritarian leader who does not care about the truth, who resorts to violence, who makes up lies about immigrants to demonize them and justify their mistreatment.
Anyone who can't accept that these people, if given power again, might very well commit genocide, has Trump Derangement Syndrome: Trump distorts their ability to see reality plainly. Trump becomes a figure who they have habitually defended and this deforms their understanding of the reality of these social forms.
Trump is a national disaster.
If you are late to this understanding, and can only now admit to the fact of the fire that the left has been warning about for the better part of a decade, pull the fire alarm. The best time to pull the fire alarm is as soon as you see the smoke. The second best time is now.
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Someone told me that you like to discuss religion as well as politics. Is this true? Not very many people here give me any material to work with. My isn't for politics.
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I think engaging with @Impassionata would likely be a waste of time due to the fact that they kinda get reduced to anti-fascism and calling people they disagree with idiots.
For sure, I'm anti-catholic, but I can be less antagonistic if you'd like to take this to the bedroom.
Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.
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I would indeed enjoy it if you were less antagonistic and engaged with me earnestly. I've been disappointed lately that the only playmate for me has been @AhoyNarca who just asks rhetorical questions and makes rude jokes without really being willing to put in much effort in return. Currently it's 6 AM on a Sunday over here which is my designated touch grass day but I'll message you this week and we can find a mutually agreeable subject as a jumping off point.
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Occasionally I say insightful things, religion is probably the single topic I know the least about. I do struggle with religion a lot, not faith. I admire and respect most people's faith and religion, but I do struggle as a gay dude to really find something or someone that is in congruence with my understanding, relationship and experiences with God.
Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.
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My IRL experience since coming back to practicing has been that (in the US at least, less so here where Catholicism is more culturally engrained and universal) most LGBT people hate us more than vice versa. I'm not sure how much of that owes to American history having a storied tradition of anti-Catholic prejudice (in the antebellum era the best selling books apart from the Bible were "Convent exposes" telling salacious tales of satanic lesbian nuns) vs. our opposition to civil union laws and the recent scandals implicating primarily same s*x attracted priests as the abusers.
I would also say that our consistency on matters of sexual sin and continued practice of venerating celibacy also makes us a truer opponent than say, Evangelicals, for whom gay men represent an outsized target in proportion to the sexual degeneracy of western culture in general.
On a personal level I have known and experienced platonic love with gay men in the past and harbor no hatred in my heart.
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It's likely my background, but to be honest I generally see evangelical protestants misguided on a lot of scriptural issues, but no more than catholics. I typically meet catholics and protestants IRL that are flagrantly from counterfeit churches. I think that the issues that the catholic church as an entity has been involved in is a large indictment not only the faith of lay catholics, but on the leadership of the church. To me, the church leadership at an institutional level is more of a driver for my dislike of the catholic church as compared to the protestant line of evangelism.
Like I don't think that there's a bunch of convent lesbians in America harboring satanic beliefs, I just think that catholic beliefs are catholics remain either ignorant or indignant about the problems in the church. I had some friends, catholic, who I loved very much. They helped me, I helped them, we really loved and respected each other. And when they got married, they asked me which church they should get married in, they said they were thinking of the catholic one. I urged against it, as my parents had been told in counseling with a priest that they were incompatible and should not get married. My parents have been married for longer than I've been alive, and have been through a lot, and are still in love.
Maybe my issue with the catholic church is more political than I'd like to admit, but I don't think that God's envoy on earth will be selected by the cardinal college. I don't think the pope is infallible, ex cathedra or not. And we're just getting started, but I want to emphasize that I mean all of this in a respectful and legitimate way. I don't want you to feel attacked, but I could see how you could feel that way.
Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.
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I only felt "attacked" because you were being insulting in an effort to troll me and you know it. I'm in my 30s and became a "serious" Catholic while living in the Bible Belt so I'm used to people disagreeing with me and/or viewing the Church as evil. We get it from all sides down south.
To quote Hillaire Belloc (from long before the present day scandals): "The Catholic Church is an institution I am bound to hold divine β but for unbelievers a proof of its divinity might be found in the fact that no merely human institution conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight." While I certainly would concede that our hierarchy has failed us grievously at times, I guess on a personal level I reconcile this fact with the truth that God loves us not because we are lovable but because He is love (1 John 4:8). Surrender, not sinlessness, is what the Lord asks of us. Our perfection is demanded (Matthew 5:48), certainly, but it is a perfection paradoxically rooted in the humble Christ and not in our own supposed successes and achievements. That God chose imperfect men to lead His Church can be understood in this light, at least to me. And I mean the Apostles themselves weren't exactly great leaders at all times, either. Peter needed chastisement from Paul, they doubted and denied Christ, etc etc.
Interfaith marriage I assume? I can't really comment on your family dynamics or your experiences without significantly more detail, I'm just inferring since I thought you're Lutheran. Attitudes on this subject vary greatly, and the reality is that the religious practices of the father have the strongest correlation to passing down faith. To be married in a Catholic Church you are taking a vow that your children will be raised there, too, meaning that it's not necessarily a wise decision for those who are fully committed. The Church allows it but discourages it for this reason, generally speaking. I'm glad your parents are still in love.
We can pick topics and go through them one by one, I'm already in longpost range and while I recognize that you and most non-Catholics have multiple points of contention it's probably better to tease each one out rather than gishgallop one another on an OP that wasn't about religion.
(@Impassionata3 in SHAMBLES as two neurodivergents steal his topic to argue about something totally unrelated)
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I'm ok walking over @Impassionata, they're not really important to me, but I do enjoy interacting with them.
But yeah, I guess we can continue this whenever, but truthfully I think there are maybe ten reasons why I think the catholic church is not the answer to my crisis of religion. Some political, some leadership wise, some to do with my personal experiences. But I don't have like, the answer myself. I'm just gonna take a shot in the dark and say God isn't muslim.
Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.
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Well, ultimately, there should only be two reasons why anyone would be Catholic: Was Jesus Christ truly God, and did He grant authority to the Church? If the answer to either question is negative then those seeking to destroy us might be closer to the truth than any lukewarm positive reception we may receive on the basis of charitable works or whatever. For now I'll leave this thought provoking essay I'd shared the other day. It contains nothing explicitly Papist even if the author was a Catholic and nobody here had the attention span or desire to talk about it with me.
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all activity is success
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1 John 4:8
Matthew 5:48
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I've been here the whole time and I still haven't figured you out. Why are you a Governor? Who do you govern? What authority do you exert over your subordinates? Do you have any control over the population of your constituency?
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Didn't read
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Ok, I'll try to put in more effort next time, it just because English isn't my native language, sometimes, especially when I'd have to type a lot I struggle to put my thoughts into the exact English words that are the best words to express the concepts I'm thinking of.
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I married an immigrant and have lived in her ESL homeland for over a year now, I can assure you that I would offer you grace and patience if you toned down the insults a touch. Of the people on this forum I probably empathize with that struggle better than most.
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This is Trump Derangement Syndrome patient #203 in my logbook. I'm "reduced to anti-fascism" because I spend time sounding the alarm. Or: he's triggered by his Trump Derangement Syndrome, reflexively defending an old boomer.
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I think anti-fascism is a dumb ideology because to position yourself the antithesis of an ideology you end up becoming the mirror image of it.
Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.
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That's why being anti-science actually makes me even MORE science!
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Beliefcels be seething over doubtchads
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Interesting, and true to some extent. Who told you that? I'll go down that road but there's not a lot to say these days.
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I was expressing my dismay at a lack of interested parties to discuss religion with to @STRIGOISPOOKHAD and your name was mentioned in passing. I'm less passionate about the political dimension but if there are topics in Second Temple Judaism/early Christianity or theology that's where I spend most of my energy for the last few years and I'd return with if it's respectful.
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What is it about that period of time that interests you?
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If Christianity's claims to truth are real contextualizing and understanding the life and teachings of Jesus have to be the starting point. I've worked my way up to the late classical era and I've read a number of books covering the 19th century forward to understand why certain things within the Church function the way they currently do but it's too large a span of history and too broad an organization to really be an expert in everything. I'll probably pick something niche to hone in on in a few years, I'm currently getting a second degree and wanted to transition to teaching so I'll likely grab a master's or PhD in the future.
Logistically it also made sense to focus on those topics because I volunteer with the class adult converts are required to take when they want to become Catholic, so defending the historicity of our teachings and practices has significant personal application in my day-to-day routine.
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