Agenda Post Alert: /r/neoliberal goes full neocon. Beware "non-interventionism", "Assad apologia" and single-payer healthcare from social democrats!

50  2017-06-06 by Prince_Kropotkin

238 comments

Oh P_K, whatever did we do to you?

You have a shitty ideology, and closer to my heart, somehow became the one group of absolute pathetic losers that /r/drama almost uniformly white-knights for.

But you hated us before we got linked on drama every other day...

Yeah, you have a shitty ideology.

You're one to talk about shitty ideologies, Prince_Manarchist.

your user history has a dangerously high proportion of comments mentioning me. do I have a new fan club member? I hope you subscribe to my defense force

I'm a fan of lolcows.

so let me do my thing and bring more into the sub! some of you idiots spend more time trying to tamp down all the drama I cause on a regular basis than actually helping out

Post bussy

this tbh

Says the arachno-commie.

Has your ideology ever worked in the real world? Ever?

Why do you hate the global poor?

It's kind of weird that people promoting sweatshops, child labor and massive-scale environmental destruction decided upon that as their go-to insult. Definitely some projection going on, big time.

You're avoiding the question. Why do you hate the global poor?

Also, how do you have so much time in grad school? Shouldn't you be reading something for your thesis?

I got an A+ in shitposting, actually

You unironically believe subsistence farming is a good way of life yet still talk shit about neoliberals.

why don't you farm dat bussy for subsistence

So, you admit I'm right and that you hate the global poor.

So, you admit I'm right and that you hate dat bussy.

I love bussy, wtf? Post it now, you poor hatin' hewhore.

subsistence farming is the only alternative reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

This is something PK has personally espoused. Don't blame me for his shitty beliefs.

What? Where? I feel like "PK has personally espoused this" means "I saw a socialist say this in Youtube comments once" these days.

PK personally espouses abandoning technology and killing white men. I saw an anarchist say this so it means PK too.

killing white men

Isnt mayocide something we all can agree on?

Because faggots like you keep trying to sneak them into my home.

They're there to take bussy pics.

We don't do bussy.

That's a lie

Not at my house.

I know that's a lie.

I am, like, extraordinarily opposed to bussy.

one group of absolute pathetic losers that /r/drama almost uniformly white-knights for.

Unironically, I suppose?

I mean, the 1st reply I read over there:

Do I belong here? I don't even consider myself a neoliberal

https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/6fifkl/beware_the_beast/diij9ub/

That looks like a sufficient degree of awareness not to be classified ash autist but, you're right, the whole sub is retarted. Unless it's all one big meme.

Hey i don't whiteknight for neolibs

That's true. You're the most prominent exception. I just like seeing the attacks distributed equally, and some people will scream about incels but then praise incels wearing lanyards, and that doesn't make sense to me.

ecofriendly lanyards thank you very much.

Finally, the recognition i deserve

Well that's because lanyards are dope af

Attacks should be distributed according to fair markets, privatize the means of assault!

Why do you hate the global lanyarded

incels wearing lanyards

Literally when have we unironically praised incels of any variety? It's not like they're NoFap. If you're spilling any seed at all, you're a degenerate with a laughably low life force.

it's a neolib joke

Lanyards are the one thing that all of r/drama can agree on.

White-knight? r/drama? You know that we like them just because they manage to piss everyone off right? This thread is Exhibit A

If it's any consolation, r/neoliberal will eventually devolve into a circlejerk full of agenda posts like most political subs. But for now it's glorious.

Has it ever occurred to you that your incoherent ideology that you call anarchism is ridiculous?

Are you on house arrest or grounded? That could be a good explanation for why you're on reddit shitposting incoherent babble 24/7.

What graduate program are you pretending to be in at the community college you attend?

I don't even know what a neolib is tbh lol

Neoliberalism is basically exploitation of the global poor. They will unironically tell you The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all.

This but unironically

  • I am a morally superior Brahmin, complete with yoga and an eco-conscious lifestyle.

I wish I could say this, but unironically

Everyone on my wealthy continent will become the global managers of global labor. We will raise the global poor up through our benevolent competence. My gardener will commute from 5,000 miles away via Space-x.

My gardener will commute from 5,000 miles away via Space-x

I wish I could say this, but unironically

why do people choose to come into the nearest factory city to work in sweatshops, rather than stay in the village of their ancestors and do subsistence farming with their parents?

why do people choose that which you think is worse than what they had before, without capitalism?

Easy, they travel to earn more money for themselves and their families. They go based word of mouth of how much they can earn. It's nothing new, U.S. history is filled with migrations of people; the California Gold Rush and farmers leaving the dust bowl and heading to California during the Great Depression come to mind. The problem is jobs are scarce while the supply of labor keeps increasing. This means the capitalist can pay next to nothing wages and fire those who demand more. Developing countries also tend to lack worker protections; the worker gets hurt on the job and gets thrown on the streets. Those third world workers are easily replaced. Exposure to toxic chemicals means a shortened life or bodily harm; it's ok though when there are plenty of poor to replace them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/opinion/do-sweatshops-lift-workers-out-of-poverty.html?_r=0

Did you read your article or was the headline good enough for you? u/Prince_Kropotkin has Neoliberal forwarded this article to you?

Here are some choice paragraphs (emphasis added):

To our surprise, most people who got an industrial job soon changed their minds. A majority quit within the first months. They ended up doing what those who had not gotten the job offers did — going back to the family farm, taking a construction job or selling goods at the market.

Contrary to the expert predictions (and ours), quitting was a wise decision for most. The alternatives were not so bad after all: People who worked in agriculture or market selling earned about as much money as they could have at the factory, often with fewer hours and better conditions. We were amazed: By the end of a year only a third of the people who had landed an industrial job were still employed in the industrial sector at all.

It would be easy to see this as the normal trial-and-error of young people starting out careers, but actually the factory jobs carried dangerous risks. Serious injuries and disabilities were nearly double among those who took the factory jobs, rising to 7 percent from about 4 percent. This risk rose with every month they stayed. The people we interviewed told us about exposure to chemical fumes and repetitive stress injuries.

We have to be careful about generalizing from five businesses in one country, but this study has still shaped our views of factory work. Industrialization is not a quick fix.* The first defense of industry probably still holds: Over time, a booming sector tends to improve labor conditions and bid up wages as more businesses compete for workers. But the path there isn’t smooth. **In the short run workers seem to share few of the benefits but a heavy burden of the risks — a burden borne by the desperate and the uninformed.

A second possible solution is social welfare systems and safety nets. With those, desperate people are not forced to risk their health at poorly managed factories. An aspect of our study put this idea to the test. We offered some applicants who did not get the factory job a business start-up package of training and cash. Those people expanded their agricultural or market selling, raised their earnings by a third and did not feel the need to resort to factory jobs. Like other poor countries, Ethiopia is experimenting with various social insurance schemes. That should continue.

I commented it to strengthen your argument..

Ooohhhhhh...

Thanks!

mfw unironically linking NYT opinion pieces in 2017

googling and reading the original paper is too hard for r.drama children, i know

The problem is jobs are scarce while the supply of labor keeps increasing.

jobs only seem scarce to you, because you think 95% of work that needs to be done is below you, and you're not qualified for the 5% that you think is interesting.

Do you have a problem with your reading comprehension or did you purposely take that sentence out of context?

for some weird reason worker wages keep on increasing in China.

china now has to outsource to vietnam and africa, because a billion chinese factory workers have been raised out of poverty by CAPITALISM

I'm not against capitalism, I'm against workers being exploited by circumventing safety and causing environmental damage.

yeah, but nobody really likes that.

would be interesting if you knew a better way of raising billions out of poverty

What does all of this have to do with your asshole statement?

don't remember any bussy related statements recently

I want to point out that a Marxist said the original quote.

HAHAHAHAHA, that is great! I first read it from a Neolib user in this comment. I checked their profile in Snoopsnoo and they have 900 posts and 14,000 karma from r/Neoliberal alone.

Okay, but the original quote is from a Marxist.

My last comment was me being stupid (I deleted it). Anyways... from what I can find on Joan Robinson she was Keynesian, but gradually shifted towards Marxism as she got older. Labeling her as a Marxist is misleading.

She tried to actually figure out how to make communism a reality, like actually setting up the theoretical framework and ended up creating developmental economics. She probably would have been a Marxist if not accepting LTV was acceptable to Marxists.

In her book Economic Philosophy (the one with the quote), it appears that Robinson is very much a believer in capitalism.

Marx does not indict capitalism the manner of the naive idealist who treat exploitation as robbery. On the contrary, with a logical sarcasm, he defends capitalism. There is no swindle - everything exchanges for its value, as is right and just.

The quote we've been talking about is actually a part of a chapter in which she skewers socialist planners. All of her arguments are in favor of capitalism. She may or may not have have died as a Marxist, but at the time of writing Economic Philosophy she was a champion for capitalism with a deep respect for Marx.

In her own writings she says that she would have been a Marxist had it actually made sense. She also basically said that the majority of Marxist don't understand Marx, in which I think she was entirely correct.

And you have your order incorrect, she started her life as more of a Marxist and gradually became more capitalist, much like Solow.

She also basically said that the majority of Marxist don't understand Marx, in which I think she was entirely correct.

Heh, I got that impression just from the little bit of Economic Philosophy I read.

And you have your order incorrect, she started her life as more of a Marxist and gradually became more capitalist, much like Solow.

My order came from an article in Jacobin: She is one of those people who moved progressively to the left with age (even unfortunately becoming enthusiastic about Mao’s Cultural Revolution in the 1960s and 1970s), and this letter of 1953 finds her halfway along the road. In the 1930s she had mocked Marxian critics of Keynes’s General Theory for not wanting to believe capitalism’s unemployment problem could be solved with the right policy. Here, she has evidently changed her mind.

Tfw rhetorical devices don't real

No one does, fam. No one does.

Why it's quite simple. The party of FDR, Reagan, Obama, Genghis Khan and Vladimir Putin!

genghis khan

Wtf i love neoliberalism now?

Killing 10% of the planet is EVIDENCE BASED POLICY

REEEEEEEEEEE

http://www.zmescience.com/ecology/genghis-khan-environment-26052014/

KHAN SENPAI SAW CLIMATE CHANGE COMING

lmao the neoliberal solution

Neither do they, so you are on equal footing.

Fuck /r/neoliberal to be honest with you. That place has so many retards in it it is unbelievable.

Like, have you seen me ever talking about how I'm making the planet a better place. These motherfuckers even come in here and say this shit. Bad enough when they believe it in their /r/firstyearecon sub of theirs.

yeah this sub is actually self-aware, which makes it pretty funny most of the time. If this place was not self-aware it would be pretty fucking awful.

We have SRD superheroes that are bullying the world from their keyboards and molding it into a better place for that.

You are dedicated to evidence based policy. He hates that.

Excuse me but I'm a materialist.

I wasn't discussing metaphysics.

Neither am I dummy.

Yes, we've established that neither are you a dummy nor was I discussing metaphysics. You're big into the non sequiturs.

Your reading comprehension needs work.

Rude

But true

You are dedicated to evidence based policy.

Isn't he a neoliberal?

Presumably. Neoliberals love evidence based policy!

If they love evidence-based policy, then why do they completely forego it in favor of neoliberalism instead?

Wrong

I know they are wrong, I already pointed that out. Neoliberals are even wrong about what neoliberalism is, they can't get the fact that their ideology is not that of FDR and Keynes (that's "party of Lincoln" level nonsense), but explicitly Reagan and Thatcher. But my question is why they gotta support that wrong policy.

Nah, read their sidebar.

Sidebar-based policy

Sure, you feel free to grandstand however you like, and totally ignore what the people in question have to say about themselves. However you need to do it to feel good, fam.

I don't care what they have to say about themselves because I don't trust a single word they say.

I don't give a shit what they believe, I have this preconception and would like to attack it, rather than the real thing. I've got an ideology and don't want to question it!

You understand you're replying to what amounts to a very sensitive, outraged wall covered in edgy rad graffiti.

I think that supporting brutal dictatorships is significantly more edgy than anything I've said.

I don't visit /r/neoliberal, and I think helicopter jokes are boring and only useful when they upset tankies. I was just telling the guy it was pointless trying to argue with a dude that throws his personal outsourced opinions as "facts" in a manner that would only be tolerated in a retarded drama subreddit.

Apart from that I'd say take the sperging about neoliberal somewhere else.

it was pointless trying to argue with a dude that throws his personal unsourced opinions as "facts"

I'm intentionally doing this because they have a mantra of "evidence-based policy".

You're implying that the concept of cops not being awesome guardian angels of order and justice is somehow controversial and edgy.

Hahaha this is what you need to invent to convince yourself that your screeching make sense. Obviously laughing at limp wristed idiots who repost "BOOTLICKER" like they're heading an antifa rally means the I think the police are all angels. The sad thing is the average donut munching cop that never left his bumfuck flyover town is still probably smarter than an internet commenter whose pastime is being filled with righteous indignation over a meme political subreddit.

That is your belief exactly.

I don't care what they have to say about themselves because I don't trust a single word they say due to how fucking much I'm dedicated to thinking I know what I'm talking about

Nice meltdown

I'm just explaining to you what your beliefs are, that's not a meltdown.

Holy shit lefties losing their minds over this gets me off so quick

I can't believe I am agreeing with you this hard.

The evidence doesn't have to be real, or even mean anything. It just needs some numbers and an academic citation.

Bussy: The Age Old Question. J. Wank Stud. 2013, Vol 44(5), pp.587-602.

There is no such thing as evidence based when it comes to econ. It's an entirely unscientific field.

What's your background in econ?

My background is in physics.

My background in anthropology disproves physics

We don't hate r/neoliberal with a disturbing amount of passion like u/Prince_Kropotkin does.

I do

Sorry for your upcoming ulcer :(

My neoliberal ulcer came and went during the GWB years

We support the global poor, whom hr hates.

By rationalizing destroying the environment and slavery because COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGES!!!

We are destroying slavery, thanks for noticing.

Actually you aren't doing anything. "WE", fucking pathetic. You are just some retard shitposting.

Did a child write this?

Evidence based policy really is so obvious a child could understand its superiority isn't it?

Yawn. I don't find parrots that entertaining.

oh did you expect an in depth conversation about a meme referencing a meme subreddit on a meta meme subreddit after replying a meme to a meme?

I called idiots idiots. You disagreed and proved me wrong somehow by acting like an idiot.

You're not you when you're hungry. Have a Snickers.

PK screeching about neoliberal lends credence to the idea that PK really is an econ PhD student because he has to hear bourgeois economics all day and Reddit is supposed to be his save haven for extreme fringe political and economic views.

Here's the thing. You said a "trilby is a fedora."

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Tell me more! These neoliberal fellas seem to have their heads on right. Throw in some anti-SJWism and racist immigration policy and you have my vote.

That's not what neocon means

That semantic battle got lost a while back.

Along with literally every other political semantic battle.

Yeah, the identical major foreign and domestic policies between neoliberals and Bush-era neocons are totally coincidental.

It says "liberal" in it, it must be good! Gays are welcome!

neoliberalism limits itself to economic policy. neoconservatism limits itself to foreign policy. it doesn't make sense to say they're identical because there is literally zero overlap

neoliberalism limits itself to economic policy. neoconservatism limits itself to foreign policy.

Riiiiiiiight

nice meme

Economics is everywhere. You are full of shit or dumb as shit. Pick one or both.

You just don't know what neocon means, you fucking idiot. Neocons want to spread democracy because they think democracy is objectively the best system of government and it's the US' destined role to spread it for its own sake.

That's not just "being interventionist". If it was, literally every president ever would be a neocon.

Read a fucking book.

I have, your summation is an incomplete "soundbite" articulation of a part of their ideology.

Maybe you should read more books and fewer posts.

lol I have a master's in IR. You?

Lol I didn't waste my time getting a masters in international relations, so I'm obviously smarter than you. Seriously, what the fuck were you thinking? Just didn't know what to do after undergrad and couldn't hack it in a professional program?

I got it while i was in the army, for free. It's sweet.

Wow. This is just how Hitler came to power.

The amount of Neo subreddits that have cropped up warrants at least one Morpheus subreddit.

10 hours and it's still not a real sub? come on people

These people don't even know what they believe. They constantly ask each other "Is this part of neoliberalism?" "Is this okay?", and I mean constantly. If people on that sub actually read what neoliberal beliefs are, they'd abandon the sub.

Currently the popularity of the sub is just a reaction for centrists to the popularity of right-wing and left-wing ideas.

It's because we keep getting know-nothing socdems from r/all. I personally just go by the idea that neoliberalism is a core of pro-market, pro-business beliefs mixed with a bit of Georgism and you can make up everything else.

'Nothing's ever our fault" -neolibs

Troo

I had to write an actual essay on liberalism, and this is my takeaway tbh:

After undergoing a period of political deference and inferiority to statist governance and policy during the mid-20th century, Liberalism adapted and broadened. Many pragmatists previously on the left and right began to recognise the power of the ideology to bring about their goals. In this sense they pursue Liberalism not for a sacrosanct belief in liberty and individualism, but due to a weakly utilitarian belief in economic and social outcomes over the implementation of normative policies as the goal itself. This modern movement, Neo-Liberalism, has broadened the tent almost to the point of incoherence, as the underlying normative beliefs of these individuals differ from individualistic, liberty-driven beliefs of classical Liberals. Given the differing normative beliefs held by these individuals, Neo-Liberals are more classifiable by adherence to a set of policy prescriptions rather than an overarching ideological framework . In this sense they form the overwhelming majority of ruling governments in the Western world.

That's actually quite good.

Neo-Liberals are more classifiable by adherence to a set of policy prescriptions rather than an overarching ideological framework

That's fair, but now you have the problem that everyone is really into POLICY-BASED EVIDENCE.

Wish I had this when I had to write my essay on Neoliberalism lmfao.

Neo-Liberals are more classifiable by adherence to a set of policy prescriptions rather than an overarching ideological framework.

If that's true no wonder it doesn't make any fucking sense. Without a concrete worldview to grow out of it's just cherry picking things that sound good without any logical consistency - it's the polar fucking opposite of the only way a body of law can possibly work. My brain hurts just trying to picture the government these people want, it'd be worse than anarchy.

They constantly ask each other "Is this part of neoliberalism?" "Is this okay?", and I mean constantly.

So virtually the exact same as any other online political community frequented overwhelmingly by neophytes?

It's almost as if they're constantly evaluating what will maximize society's well-being!

It's almost as if, instead of evaluating what will maximize the nation's well-being, they are pursuing a random assortment of self-serving individualist whims that lead ultimately to nationlessness and surrendering before more coherent movements!

they are pursuing a random assortment of self-serving individualist whims

heil capitalism

Lol - then why call it NeoLibralism - which is a hidebound dogma.

Like if you want to call yourselves neo-neo-convervatives whatever, but it's clearly not neolibralism going on over there. That has been defined for almost half a century.

Except that itself requires your own personal framework.

In doubt, addopt utilitarianism

Is

i disagree

when we are talking about policy the stakes are too high for fucking around

My friend, how do you know the stakes are high?

Anyway, deciding that high stakes = default to X arbitrary position is in fact an ideological framework, as of course is whichever position you choose.

Look, I hate when commies do this, but honestly I dont have a comeback for it

I know is wrong and someday I will prove just wait

i am not a commie but thank you for jerking me off nonetheless

commie

commie apologists

people who care about being technically right

who cares

people who care about being technically right

i am reeeing so hard right now

My job here is done.

They ask "Is this okay?" more than that dumb "consent is sexy" commercial. These guys don't know anything about their subject. They're the IFLScience of economics.

why do you hate the global poor consent?

/u/Prince_Kropotkin you'll be way more effective if you stop treating this sub like badpolitics and start posting actual neoliberal drama.

Actually scratch that there's some good drama in there. You just gave it a really shitty title /u/Prince_Kropotkin. It didn't even have to be an agenda post.

Feel free to repost it with a different title, it will probably be upvoted if you post it.

Nah I'm happy keeping this drama all to myself.

Save the drama for your mama

It's hard for me deciding if I hate commies who think they are smart enough to outwit people into thinking they aren't commies like PK

or these dumb fucks

This post is controversial because of "Pro-Assad" and "Non-intervention;" OP has a neocon agenda

Single Payer, No Free Markets, "Free Trade" enslaving the 3rd world.

Thinking we need to intervene in what Tajikistan? That's pretty fucking dumb.

"Hey all those last times we knocked out Middle Eastern Dictators worked so well why don't we try it again? said the Anti-War Democrat"

Africa Fracking? Isn't it only South America?

Hey u/Prince_Kropotkin how the hell do you expect the government to get enough money to pay for Single-Payer? It's going to be a lot harder than with European countries.

Well I haven't crunched the numbers, but single-payer would make Medicare, Medicaid, and Obamacare pretty much redundant. That's probably the bulk of the funding needed right there.

No! We need our mediocre lukewarm insurance subsidies that both suck up billions of dollars and do not provide adequate coverage. To do otherwise is C O M M U N I S M.

Bulk of the funding but not all.

Sure but I think shifting the rest of the funding from employers to taxpayers in general would have a few major benefits. For one, employers would no longer have to foot the full bill for healthcare, making American companies more globally competitive. And it would also help workers, increasing their mobility and therefore their bargaining power slightly.

I'm not disagreeing that the current system is terrible, but what's needed is to decrease prices.

Medicare and Medicaid, single-payer programs, have done a decent job of that. They would be even cheaper if they were allowed to negotiate drug prices.

What Medicare and Medicaid do is subsidize prices. In the long run they increase prices, which is what we're seeing now.

What's your alternative?

First order of business is breaking the power of the AMA and training a bunch more doctors.

this neoliberal belief that you can just pull a bunch of highly skilled, highly qualified workers in [x demanding, difficult field] out of thin air and they'll make all of american capitalism's inconvenient problems go away is a particularly strange, delusional one

Breaking the AMA is a great idea though, I am also in favor of that. There was even a Chapo episode on it recently.

that's fair, i just am dubious there's a massive untapped vein of "americans who want to be doctors but aren't"

Fear not, 90% of the doctors on my insurance plan are from Myanmar and they are all a huge pain in the ass about refilling my oxys.

Lol "immiserate more laborers" is the neoliberal solution for everything. Because God forbid the obscenely rich people have to pay more taxes.

Perhaps some price caps. Those work, right?

Dismantle the current insane clusterfuck of a system.

Medicare and Medicaid were a mistake. Seriously, they're fucking terrible.

They're quite a bit cheaper than private insurance for the same reason that single-payer is: lower overhead costs and bargaining power. They're not the cause for high health care spending in the US.

I thought folks who praise themselves on being "evidence based" would know this.

"Evidence-based​ policy" means that they assert their policy is evidence-based and any other by definition isn't.

They support policy-based evidence, anyway.

They don't actually have higher bargaining power because they aren't allowed to negotiate for prices.

Because people are so allowed to negotiate for prices as far as boilerplate contracts go, right?

Let me guess, minimum wage means less bargaining power because people are not allowed to negotiate lower than.

I'm talking about Medicare vs private insurers. Insurers are allowed to negotiate for prices but Medicare isn't.

This has to be a troll. Medicare and Medicaid don't spend huge amounts of resources trying to find ways to deny claims, which makes them way more efficient than private insurance schemes.

POLICY-BASED EVIDENCE

u/Prince_Kropotkin how's the ulcer? You should really stay away from r/neoliberal if you want it to heal.

When will you folks snap and just totally lose your shit about me? It can't be too far off.

You love spreading lies don't you? Not a surprise for someone who espouses an ideology that has never worked in the real world.

haha I bet we're getting close, will you be going the nowaydaddioh direction or the /r/socialism direction when you freak out?

I bet we're getting close

I'm just gonna leave this here.

I know you love to jack off constantly in this sub so I figured I'd try for once

I'm moving the r/neoliberal "evidence based" salt.

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A G E N D A P O S T G E N D A P O S T

ITT idiots from /r/neoliberal brigade

Regulated capitalism is the best economic system

If that is true, why is it causing everyone to become a total faggot.

Why do you hate the global gays?

being a self-destructive neoliberal cuck in 2017

"Evidence-based policy" aka needing to consult a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.

oh boy PK is autistically screeching about /r/neoliberal again, must be a day ending in 'y'

so what is this libertarianism?

Can't wait for the Ben Garrison edit.

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