I mean, this shit isn't hard. If sweatshop labor was worse than whatever the people in Malaysia or wherever were doing before, they wouldn't have taken the sweatshop job. Rome wasn't built in a day, and you can't tear a people out of poverty in one either.
This point never gets old. The bums lost, /u/Prince_Kropotkin. Maybe instead of trying to get a posse of internet teens on your side, you should be successful and influential in real life.
in the real world, "debate" means using superior argumentation and rhetoric to convince an audience of your position, not some ratheist wet dream where you tediously "out-logic" your opponent until he concedes to your superior intellect. aggression and mockery are more than fair play, refusing to employ them makes you bad at debating. failing to understand this is why democrats are boring and unlikable, btw
yeah, because just insulting your opponent is terrible argumentation and rhetoric. everyone's just gonna think you're a spaz. but that doesn't make just presenting a series of dry statistics or whatever a good approach either. it's probably a better approach than empty insults, sure, but it'll be blown out of the water by someone who actually argues in a way that's compelling to humans
yeah, because just insulting your opponent is terrible argumentation and rhetoric. everyone's just gonna think you're a spaz.
It depends on the audience. Look at the ever-expanding domain of arguments that can be shut down by calling someone a "racist" in some way, shape, or form. Or look at the "mansplaining" critique - the effectiveness of that is going to almost 100% depend on your audience and their receptiveness to the idea of mansplaining.
Granted, if you can obviously run circles around your opponents intellectually you can usually win anyways. But this is harder to accomplish than people think, as you say.
Yeah but can we at least recognize that this is a bad thing? Even if the debaters will resort to whatever they can to win, the moderators of the debate ought to try to curb their baser impulses. This way those that aren't quite to charismatic or aggressive can still succeed if their points are good enough.
I'm just saying we need a free debate market with regulations and a safety net for the disadvantaged.
no way. rhetoric is an ancient and underappreciated art, not just shitflinging and empty platitudes. anyway considering this post is about internet arguments, i meant my point more broadly than just wrt formal debates with moderators and such
There is no way to know if a political idea is good via pure wonkery and logic. The closest thing we have to godlike AI is experience and intuition, still.
PK is right. Look at Trump, he didn't win with coherent arguments, he won largely with quips. In the real world during a debate ,not some standardized debate from a debate team, but actual conversation people listen in on, mockery can incredibly effective.
but if you can be even more aggressive and turn the tables with mockery and taunting then try it - I've seen this completely shatter neoliberals more than once, and their flailing around and tantrum-throwing makes it easier to finish the debate decisively for your benefit.
Yeah this only works when you're posturing in front of a bunch of people that already agree with you. Strategies that only work within a hugbox are kinda sad.
One of the most important arguments to bring up against neoliberalism is capitalism's utter failure to deal with climate change, an absolutely existential challenge for the human race.
Look at CO2 emissions per capita in the US and tell me that capitalism isn't addressing climate change. But even if this isn't sufficient, what neoliberals argue against externality pricing for carbon? None that I know of.
But what causes a lot of tendies to be dropped on this issue is the fact that the science supporting the assertion that climate change is an "existential threat" is not there. People asserting this are just as "anti-science" as the denialist crowd. That's why neoliberals can cause shitfits by downplaying hysterical views of climate change. And don't even ask them to try to quantify the impact of "biodiversity loss"...
And if the arguments turns from actual scientific estimates of CC impacts to fuzzy ecological arguments about the finite nature of natural resources, remind them that these sorts of panics have been debunked for decades. Remember when "Peak Oil" was a thing? That was literally just a few years ago. Turns out that technology solves problems, and capitalist societies are good at producing technologies.
Here's a fun question to think about. If a meteor was predicted to hit the Earth in a century and totally destroy all human life, how much would today's stock market dip?
Um, how much should it dip, PK?
When countries (often led by Western-backed dictators or "rebels" etc) purposefully destroy subsistence farming as an option through concentration of land rights, opening of trade to heavily subsidized agriculture imports, etc, and then invite in Western investors to build awful factories, then yes sweatshops are better than the alternative (because there is no feasible alternative by design).
So land reforms and free trade are the root cause of industrialization and a shift away from agriculture in societies? What economic historian claims this?
In any case, I give PK some credit for trying but as he alludes to in his opener most of his audience is too ignorant to yield his bad arguments properly. That's why the "just be an indignant asshole to them and block them on Facebook" line he starts off with is probably the only real practical advice in the thread.
But what causes a lot of tendies to be dropped on this issue is the fact that the science supporting the assertion that climate change is an "existential threat" is not there.
This seems like a "he said, she said" argument. Can you substantiate this?
Usually I point to IPCC reports that quantify climate impacts in terms of GDP losses. They're actually very small.
Then I ask where the controverting evidence exists. Maybe it's unfair of me but I legit do not know of like well-published studies that predict the end of civilization as we know it, so I just assume that people who act like this are just being unreasonable. Feel free to point me to some if you have them.
Usually I point to IPCC reports that quantify climate impacts in terms of GDP losses. They're actually very small.
Is that the thesis at issue? The size of GDP loss in recent years due to climate impact?
What of the "doomsday" arguments that claim that the warming trend will eventually reach a point-of-no-return? Presumably these don't require that we're already seeing sizable GDP loss from climate impacts.
I haven't looked at the literature, I've just seen a lot of heated rhetoric.
The doomsday argument is literally that we're all going to die or that there will be a civilization-ending event. If that's not what you mean when you describe CC as an "existential threat" than you need to stop using that term.
Oh, and yeah, more tendies get dropped if you start discussing the benefits of climate change. More arable land in Canada!
I haven't heard anyone claim it would be the end of civilization. It just would make life harder for a great many people, flood some coastal areas, fuck with the current weather patterns and really fuck up the fertility of a lot of areas. Sure you can fix that with desalination and nitrogen but not pouring a bunch of shit into the atmosphere is the better option.
When someone says climate change is an existential threat the plain meaning of the term is that it threatens to cause the collapse of civilization or whatever. Not "climate change will impose costs on some people."
If you don't want people to get hung up on words like that, then don't use them.
I've never said it was an existential threat or would result in the collapse of society. You can't deny that it will be a major wrench in the wheels when coastal cities start flooding, naval bases disappear and weather patterns become far more unpredictable and violent. Especially with how it will fuck with Lakes, fertile areas, and plant life in general. It's not like this will just affect some brown people in Africa.
Humans are very resourceful and pretty much nothing aside from genocidal aliens or taking /r/Drama seriously will exterminate us as a species.
You might not claim that the issue is existential but obviously others do.
Attempts to quantify the "major wrench" you describe have been made. The results aren't that worrisome. We're talking about knocking a few points off global GDP, essentially setting us a couple years back over a century or whatever the horizon is. Again, as a good neoliberal I support climate pricing to ensure that the costs of addressing climate change do not exceed the benefits but most people who want to panic over this stuff will not find this sufficient.
Whether or not the IPCC is too conservative, I don't know a competing impact analysis that can claim to be as authoritative. You can pick away at the methods in dozens of ways but what's the alternative bottom line?
The IPCC is the primary intergovernmental body on climate change. I'm not aware of another singular report or committee that consists of such a diverse body of scientists or is considered as authoritative. There's the Stern Review, although it's much more limited in scope (and more controversial). However, the fact that the IPCC is considered authoritative and is intergovernmental is part of the problem: countries like the US, China, Saudi Arabia, etc. have a vested interest in making sure that the report underestimates climate change risks and is as conservative as possible. I mean, citing IPCC reports is fine, but only if you acknowledge that it is out of date, conservative, and that newer models are showing more dramatic changes (particularly with regards to rises in sea level). The IPCC reports themselves don't come up with climate data or models, just examine the current peer-reviewed literature, so when new models arise we need to take heed. And still, the Kyoto Protocol failed despite the existence of the IPCC, so I wonder if the IPCC's authoritative assessments are even efficacious, particularly considering their conservatism.
What I appreciate about the IPCC is that, as I understand it, it actually makes reasonable assumptions about how humans will adapt to climate change and model the costs. Rather than just assuming that rising sea levels will suddenly wipe away cities and all the people in them or whatever.
That's always the sticking point for me as an economist. Okay, the sea level rises. What's an actual reasonable cost estimate? At this point the question gets kicked over from the climatologists to the economists and we're all dirty neoliberals to the answer always comes out to be much less costly than people would expect. That's my broad take on these matters.
Wait, pk makes a text wall about how to debate with people he disagrees with and the person he doesn't respond to is the person actually willing to have a debate? C'mon dude....
Are people demanding I respond to someone saying that climate change isn't a big deal and that carbon taxes are fixing the problem? I'm not going to waste my time getting into a serious debate in this particular sub with actual idiots.
The response to "Knowing for certain that civilization would end in a century would only have a minor impact on stock markets based on traditional valuation methods, does that not say something about capitalism's short-termist tendencies" is "Maybe you just don't understand what prices are supposed to mean very well?". It's dumb and will be upvoted by people who are mad at me and desire very much that I'll get mad and freak out (since they've been waiting for months now), but don't understand the debate from either side.
Alright. Out of curiosity, why should knowing for certain that civilization would be destroyed in a hundred years radically alter present prices? If nothing can be done, why should anything be changed?
In practice there would be widespread chaos, I'm sure. The point illustrated by that example, however, is that a society that is so strongly tied to the present that it institutionally doesn't really care much about its grandchildren all dying horrifically (and the discount rates implicit in political decision making in capitalist societies are taken from the markets!) is a fucked up one that is going to have a lot of trouble dealing with serious crises that arrive slowly and over time, even if they are predictable. Like climate change.
that it institutionally doesn't really care much about its grandchildren all dying horrifically
But the example you gave doesn't show that at all. If everybody's going to die and there's nothing you can do about it, then what does it really demonstrate that prices might not change very much? "Everybody's going to die but there might be something we can do about it, and that something will make x y and z much more expensive" would affect prices more.
If you used a 1% or 0.5% discount rate then stock prices would change dramatically, in fact. Because you would much more strongly take into account all the expected dividends after the meteor strike that will no longer exist. With a higher discount rate they would barely matter anyway.
Stock prices are basically the discounted sum of expected future dividends. I may have not made that sufficiently clear in my original exposition.
I realize this. I'm just not clear what your point is -- it originally seemed as though you were bothered by the market's callousness towards future generations.
Your responses thus far have definitely not given that impression. This has nothing to do with callousness or not. It's a thought experiment, and if you want to be extremely pedantic then just get away from it all together. "High society-wide rates of time preference make for bad responses to far-off crises until it's too late. Capitalism is such a system."
a society that is so strongly tied to the present that it institutionally doesn't really care much about its grandchildren all dying horrifically
Make up your mind.
It's a thought experiment... "High society-wide rates of time preference make for bad responses to far-off crises until it's too late. Capitalism is such a system. That is a problem."
You stipulated that any intervention was too late because extinction was certain. It's a shitty thought experiment.
I hope this soon devolves into "I can't believe how stupid people are for agreeing with you" which is my absolute favorite response to deal with. You folks are so bad at persuasion, it's painful to watch.
"High society-wide rates of time preference make for bad responses to far-off crises until it's too late. Capitalism is such a system. That is a problem."
High society-wide rates of time preference are not a function of capitalism. Capitalism channels them into prices, but yeah people who find future-discounting intrinsically objectionable should just be straightforward about that and argue that we as individuals should knock that shit off. Rather than making non-commital insinuations about how markets should respond to distant events. Is having people shrug off a 300-year meteor much less objectionable than a 100-year meteor in your book? Are you sure that your preferred form of non-capitalist society would generate a different result here? Why? Is not discounting the future a core tenet of anarchism?
High society-wide rates of time preference are not a function of capitalism
They are, although not exclusively. Most societies historically de-linked market interest rates from the implicit time preference used in political decision making. Capitalism does not.
Is having people shrug off a 300-year meteor much less objectionable than a 100-year meteor in your book
All else equal, that would be implying that we are much better at dealing with certain but far-off problems, so... yes?
Are you sure that your preferred form of non-capitalist society would generate a different result here?
Explained elsewhere in some detail. Look in the OP.
They are, although not exclusively. Most societies historically de-linked market interest rates (which tend to be fairly high) from the implicit time preference used in political decision making.
Are you asserting that market interest rates (removing risk premiums) are above some reasonable aggregate of the population discount rate? Or that non-capitalist policy makers have tended to use lower discount rates than the population discount rate? I don't think the former assertion can be supported so I'm curious about the latter.
It seems pretty autocratic to try to override people's discount rates in social choice, and I genuinely don't understand how an anarchist society would accomplish this. The best I can gather from your comments is that you think the problem would just be dodged because for some reason an anarchist society wouldn't be engaging in industrial processes that perpetuate climate change or whatever.... which is as cheap a solution as saying that capitalist societies can just geoengineer their way out of the problem. But even if I grant that it doesn't show that anarchists would solve the meteor problem you pose.
Historically speaking market interest rates (not account for risk, but w/e) have tended to be a few percent or more. I can't remember exactly but religious texts and other sources (I think Graeber brought this up in Debt!) tend to mention actual numbers, and even accounting for risk it isn't anything like 0.5%. Rates of time preference in market goods and services for individuals are almost certainly a few percent, even if we might discount hyperbolically instead of exponentially which complicates things.
The problem comes in when you try to force discount rates from market transactions to be identical to social discount rates for everything else. People might very well naturally have a 5% time preference over consumption goods, but they probably wouldn't say that about their grandchildren's standard of living. This is a flaw of capitalism in particular and why anarchist (or many other non-capitalist) societies would be different.
Look at the ancient Chinese. They had markets but merchants were the lowest social caste and decision making was based on Confucian principles, not whatever interest rates the merchants were charging. They had thousands of years of history to draw upon and expected thousands of years more to look forward to, and acted accordingly.
anarchists would solve the meteor problem you pose.
Nobody would solve that problem. The thought experiment is not that you can stop the meteor, it's that capitalist society wouldn't even really act any differently (in theory according to normal financial valuations, again something so stark as that would probably cause some death cults or whatever to form in reality and fuck up the normal functioning of capitalism) until the meteor got much closer, whereas other societies that are looking more toward the future would react pretty drastically. It's just a device to show that capitalism is pathologically short-termist even in absurd situations.
Iirc studies on intertemporal preferences have been done in indigenous societies and tend to find higher discounting. I don't think there's any literature that really supports the notion that non-market goods are broadly subjected to different discount rates than market goods.
Substantially discounting the future precedes capitalism (hell, I'm sure I could dig up primate studies on the subject) and will persist without it. It's fine to find it vulgar but you can't stop this from being translated into policy without using pretty forceful means.
However they function, good political systems are able to deal with foreseeable problems arising in the long term and bad ones are not. If you want to boil down my critique to this then that's fine.
you can't stop this from being translated into policy without using pretty forceful means.
That seems a ridiculous leap of logic considering that many societies prior to capitalism did a better job of it and not all of them were habitually violent in their political systems. But this conversation has run its course, anyway.
However they function, good political systems are able to deal with foreseeable problems arising in the long term and bad ones are not.
I don't think "good" political systems can be as easily detached from the preferences of its citizens as you're imagining. If people don't think something is a problem and your political system reflects those preferences then one needs to build in additional assumptions to the critique that hopefully go beyond "well those preferences are shit and should be overridden."
That seems a ridiculous leap of logic considering that many societies prior to capitalism did a better job of it and not all of them were habitually violent in their political systems.
I don't really think we have good ways to infer the implicit policy discount rates of pre-capitalist societies. Certainly cases of ecological collapse due to human activity are well-known - hunter-gatherers weren't particularly good at conserving mammoth populations, etc. And even if we could make those inferences it'd be unfair to take the best examples and assume that that would be achieved if capitalism were replaced.
Bottom line is that I don't see how an anarchist system where people discount the future by 3% per year and produces policies as if that discount rate were 0%. Seems to require magical thinking.
He doesn't reply to me directly because he knows that just calling me stupid a couple times rather than offering anything substantive would obviously look pretty bad.
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
I don't mind shitposting here even though it appears a larger and larger percentage of the sub's population genuinely hate me or are trying to set me off. Sometimes its funny, increasingly just sad.
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
Context matters and more guides are always useful.
I get a LOT of PMs thanking me and people telling me they're more interested in socialism and anarchism as a result of reading my comments, asking for book recommendations etc. I also see people using things I say, that "list" I keep, etc and attacking neoliberals in other places. I know how much impact I can have just as one person and it's a hell of a lot of fun.
This is true, I got interested in anarchism because of PK's Reddit comments. I read his posts and thought "surely all anarchists can't be this retarded." Turns out they are.
You should write a guide on how to build a leftist society instead. No one is going to be swayed by even the most brutal takedown of neoliberalism when they see the alternative is the USSR or Venezuela.
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
I get a LOT of PMs thanking me and people telling me they're more interested in socialism and anarchism as a result of reading my comments, asking for book recommendations etc. I also see people using things I say, that "list" I keep, etc and attacking neoliberals in other places. I know how much impact I can have just as one person and it's a hell of a lot of fun.
Congratulations, you've managed to post the most retarded comment on r/drama today. Fucking r/drama: the sub that actively tries to be the worst sub on reddit.
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
Nobody ever thinks people who ideologically disagree with them strongly are credible, intelligent or able to make a difference. I hang around here sometimes to be amused at the clown show, but there isn't any hard-hitting intellectual debate going on here.
You base your "debate" on how angry you make people. You're literally describing a troll. The fact you try and make yourself sound smarter is hilarious given the fact you obsess over spooky ol gamergate and its "calls for ethics in journalism." People give you shit here because we know we're trolls, and sanctimonious blowhards like you are perfect for the sub. Plus it helps how totally never mad you are whenever you spam this sub.
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
He is an anarchist he definitely will have a difference of opinion with a neolib subreddit. Given that he debates a lot with the neo-libs and the neo-libs bait him in return it's fun and games for them. I'm guessing you don't like people having fun. Next you'll be calling furries pathetic.
Other guy responded, but I'll chip it. Mostly it's pathetic because it's fucking Reddit. Who on God's green earth takes Reddit as seriously as PK? It's disturbing.
I thought last week he swore to quit this place, yet he still comes back. He's not responding to all username pings anymore so please ensure to write "God bless Thatcher" after the ping.
We are entering the early stages of a global catastrophe the like of which has not happened since the Permian-Triassic Extinction 250,000,000 years ago, the blame lies entirely with the global hegemony of your putrid ideology, and this is all you can say...
I don't like neoliberalism either /u/hrei2, but it's not worse than a fucking meteor impact.
I don't see why you'd argue with neoliberals, /u/Prince_Kropotkin . Whenever a far left or far right force comes to power, neoliberals tend to either change to the whims of the new regime or get killed. They're eager to debate until Doomsday, but they are not willing to fight or die for anything. You'll have to politically attack them.
You're correct about this, but you have to build a socialist movement before neoliberals will (metaphorically, since I'm not a Marxist-Leninist) grovel at your feet.
You're correct about this, but you have to build a socialist movementgenetically perfect army of super-soldiers before neoliberals will (metaphorically, I'm not a Marxist-Leninistliterally, since you are now the God-Emperor of mankind) grovel at your feet.
I updated this to something that's more possible. Of course the neoliberals will just go on to swear eternal allegiance to Knorne or Nurgle....🤔
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
Should have done poli-sci instead. My econ classes were far more conservative right wing than my poli-sci classes, which were full to the brim of why feminism is an integral part of the international order. Admittedly though it's hard to go further left than literal communism.
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
A little note on my "methodology" (of sorts): I craft arguments and purposefully head into very hostile echo-chambers to see how people there respond to a direct attack on their ideology. When I get reasoned attacks back, I modify and improve my arguments accordingly. When I only get back sputtering, yelling and insults, I know it's getting good and only some fine-tuning remains to be made.
So basically, literally any argument works against sjw types?
No, no. What one does is come up with an ideal, criticize capitalism for failing to live up to that ideal, and then simply imply that one has a better solution. Vagueness is key here.
This is what I never got about this argument. The workers have already decided they don't give a shit really, at least not enough of one to sacrifice their quality of life. So how will socialism/communism change anything?
No,no. What you do is come up with an ideal, criticize capitalism for failing to live up to that ideal, and then simply imply that you have a better solution.
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
the way to do it is the jon stewart method, LARP as an enlightened neutral with neutrality being basic bitch leftism/rightism whichever one you're shilling.
I like how his tin pot sub has this in the sidebar.
Remember that the presence of viewpoints and opinions different from your own is a good thing, and can strengthen your confidence in well founded beliefs and help you outgrow less tenable positions.
No flaming, baiting, excessive shitposting, smugposting, or memeing.
and he has such a ridiculous thread with his comments like this:
I only get utility from consuming products made from endangered species and oil and gas from Arctic refuges, personally.
235 comments
n/a SnapshillBot 2017-06-18
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n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
u/Prince_Kropotkin
n/a HodorTheDoorHolder 2017-06-18
Hahahahahaha!! What a fucking loser. I can't believe he wastes this much effort on people with different opinions.
n/a pastryarchy 2017-06-18
People whith different opinions really should be shot. Arguing with them instead of shooting them is just gay.
n/a ironicshitpostr 2017-06-18
I like to shoot them up with manchowder, if you know what I mean.
Nothing like some ideology-fueled hatesex to really get the engine going.
n/a lokichilde 2017-06-18
This is the saddest thing pk has done to date, I'm actually impressed by the levels of autism involved to create this.
n/a DistortedLines 2017-06-18
Ikr, imagine being this triggered by mainstream economics. PK has probably considered suicide 50 times while working on his PHD
n/a lokichilde 2017-06-18
tbf that's a normal amount for a PhD candidate
n/a menvaren 2017-06-18
Seems a bit low actually.
n/a Kysbu 2017-06-18
Im pretty sure someone actually working on a phd doesnt have time to seriouspost on reddit
n/a carthoris26 2017-06-18
I miss comically ridiculous PK, this is just sad.
n/a iiiiiiiiiiiijiii 2017-06-18
Who would have known that the straw that broke PK's back would be mainstream economic thought
n/a scatmunchies 2017-06-18
Evidenced based policy
n/a Works_of_memercy 2017-06-18
Helping the global poor.
n/a PhysicsIsMyMistress 2017-06-18
Misspelling the word hurting
n/a newnewisold 2017-06-18
Free trade has helped the global poor more than any aid policy.
n/a moudougou 2017-06-18
Are you a global poor?
n/a bjt23 2017-06-18
I mean, this shit isn't hard. If sweatshop labor was worse than whatever the people in Malaysia or wherever were doing before, they wouldn't have taken the sweatshop job. Rome wasn't built in a day, and you can't tear a people out of poverty in one either.
n/a darkaceAUS 2017-06-18
Quick, what's the difference between wealth and income
n/a blertyuh 2017-06-18
One is money and stuff and the other is like, money and stuff
n/a Avakar 2017-06-18
Wealth is the total value of your shit. Income is how often you get more shit.
n/a thefran 2017-06-18
die faster
n/a marsjazztrio 2017-06-18
This point never gets old. The bums lost, /u/Prince_Kropotkin. Maybe instead of trying to get a posse of internet teens on your side, you should be successful and influential in real life.
n/a menvaren 2017-06-18
I think that ship has sailed for poor PK.
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-06-18
He just needs an African adventure to calm his nerves.
n/a OccasionallyClueless 2017-06-18
Becoming successful and influential is a great deal harder than having pointless political conjecture with fellow serfs.
n/a Khaelgor 2017-06-18
Okay then.
n/a glmox 2017-06-18
in the real world, "debate" means using superior argumentation and rhetoric to convince an audience of your position, not some ratheist wet dream where you tediously "out-logic" your opponent until he concedes to your superior intellect. aggression and mockery are more than fair play, refusing to employ them makes you bad at debating. failing to understand this is why democrats are boring and unlikable, btw
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
People expect some standards for things to be called a "debate". Like if you're just insulting your opponent no one calls that a debate.
n/a glmox 2017-06-18
yeah, because just insulting your opponent is terrible argumentation and rhetoric. everyone's just gonna think you're a spaz. but that doesn't make just presenting a series of dry statistics or whatever a good approach either. it's probably a better approach than empty insults, sure, but it'll be blown out of the water by someone who actually argues in a way that's compelling to humans
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
It depends on the audience. Look at the ever-expanding domain of arguments that can be shut down by calling someone a "racist" in some way, shape, or form. Or look at the "mansplaining" critique - the effectiveness of that is going to almost 100% depend on your audience and their receptiveness to the idea of mansplaining.
Granted, if you can obviously run circles around your opponents intellectually you can usually win anyways. But this is harder to accomplish than people think, as you say.
n/a freet0 2017-06-18
Yeah but can we at least recognize that this is a bad thing? Even if the debaters will resort to whatever they can to win, the moderators of the debate ought to try to curb their baser impulses. This way those that aren't quite to charismatic or aggressive can still succeed if their points are good enough.
I'm just saying we need a free debate market with regulations and a safety net for the disadvantaged.
n/a glmox 2017-06-18
no way. rhetoric is an ancient and underappreciated art, not just shitflinging and empty platitudes. anyway considering this post is about internet arguments, i meant my point more broadly than just wrt formal debates with moderators and such
n/a Cloacalla_Festival 2017-06-18
There is no way to know if a political idea is good via pure wonkery and logic. The closest thing we have to godlike AI is experience and intuition, still.
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-06-18
Can you imagine how fun super leftists are to party with
n/a glmox 2017-06-18
i dont need to imagine
the ones that do a lot of drugs are a blast generally
n/a StingAuer 2017-06-18
The question is, are they fun because of the drugs, or do they do drugs because they're fun?
n/a glmox 2017-06-18
varies wildly
n/a OccasionallyClueless 2017-06-18
It helps loosen the massive ideological logs up their asses.
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-06-18
Isn't someone's ability to process mood enhancers implicitly ableist
n/a Cloacalla_Festival 2017-06-18
It does require not being on massive amounts of anti-triggerants.
n/a Cloacalla_Festival 2017-06-18
The drugs are good, but the sex is bad because the bodies are unkempt and woke and of indeterminate gender.
n/a StingAuer 2017-06-18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
n/a grafton29 2017-06-18
PK is right. Look at Trump, he didn't win with coherent arguments, he won largely with quips. In the real world during a debate ,not some standardized debate from a debate team, but actual conversation people listen in on, mockery can incredibly effective.
n/a Khaelgor 2017-06-18
And we all know how that's going now, don't we?
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
Apologies in advance for the seriouspost, but..
Yeah this only works when you're posturing in front of a bunch of people that already agree with you. Strategies that only work within a hugbox are kinda sad.
Look at CO2 emissions per capita in the US and tell me that capitalism isn't addressing climate change. But even if this isn't sufficient, what neoliberals argue against externality pricing for carbon? None that I know of.
But what causes a lot of tendies to be dropped on this issue is the fact that the science supporting the assertion that climate change is an "existential threat" is not there. People asserting this are just as "anti-science" as the denialist crowd. That's why neoliberals can cause shitfits by downplaying hysterical views of climate change. And don't even ask them to try to quantify the impact of "biodiversity loss"...
And if the arguments turns from actual scientific estimates of CC impacts to fuzzy ecological arguments about the finite nature of natural resources, remind them that these sorts of panics have been debunked for decades. Remember when "Peak Oil" was a thing? That was literally just a few years ago. Turns out that technology solves problems, and capitalist societies are good at producing technologies.
Um, how much should it dip, PK?
So land reforms and free trade are the root cause of industrialization and a shift away from agriculture in societies? What economic historian claims this?
In any case, I give PK some credit for trying but as he alludes to in his opener most of his audience is too ignorant to yield his bad arguments properly. That's why the "just be an indignant asshole to them and block them on Facebook" line he starts off with is probably the only real practical advice in the thread.
n/a vendric 2017-06-18
This seems like a "he said, she said" argument. Can you substantiate this?
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
Usually I point to IPCC reports that quantify climate impacts in terms of GDP losses. They're actually very small.
Then I ask where the controverting evidence exists. Maybe it's unfair of me but I legit do not know of like well-published studies that predict the end of civilization as we know it, so I just assume that people who act like this are just being unreasonable. Feel free to point me to some if you have them.
n/a vendric 2017-06-18
Is that the thesis at issue? The size of GDP loss in recent years due to climate impact?
What of the "doomsday" arguments that claim that the warming trend will eventually reach a point-of-no-return? Presumably these don't require that we're already seeing sizable GDP loss from climate impacts.
I haven't looked at the literature, I've just seen a lot of heated rhetoric.
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
IPCC report projects GDP losses.
The doomsday argument is literally that we're all going to die or that there will be a civilization-ending event. If that's not what you mean when you describe CC as an "existential threat" than you need to stop using that term.
Oh, and yeah, more tendies get dropped if you start discussing the benefits of climate change. More arable land in Canada!
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-06-18
I haven't heard anyone claim it would be the end of civilization. It just would make life harder for a great many people, flood some coastal areas, fuck with the current weather patterns and really fuck up the fertility of a lot of areas. Sure you can fix that with desalination and nitrogen but not pouring a bunch of shit into the atmosphere is the better option.
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
When someone says climate change is an existential threat the plain meaning of the term is that it threatens to cause the collapse of civilization or whatever. Not "climate change will impose costs on some people."
If you don't want people to get hung up on words like that, then don't use them.
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-06-18
I've never said it was an existential threat or would result in the collapse of society. You can't deny that it will be a major wrench in the wheels when coastal cities start flooding, naval bases disappear and weather patterns become far more unpredictable and violent. Especially with how it will fuck with Lakes, fertile areas, and plant life in general. It's not like this will just affect some brown people in Africa.
Humans are very resourceful and pretty much nothing aside from genocidal aliens or taking /r/Drama seriously will exterminate us as a species.
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
You might not claim that the issue is existential but obviously others do.
Attempts to quantify the "major wrench" you describe have been made. The results aren't that worrisome. We're talking about knocking a few points off global GDP, essentially setting us a couple years back over a century or whatever the horizon is. Again, as a good neoliberal I support climate pricing to ensure that the costs of addressing climate change do not exceed the benefits but most people who want to panic over this stuff will not find this sufficient.
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n/a TheRealJohnAdams 2017-06-18
From the PK guide: "capitalism's utter failure to deal with climate change, an absolutely existential challenge for the human race."
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-06-18
I just kind of skim whatever he says. Dude's head has been in the clouds for so long he's forgotten what the ground looks like.
n/a Unicorn_Abattoir 2017-06-18
In this very thread.....
n/a minimalmoralias 2017-06-18
The IPCC report gives one of the more conservative estimates of climate change and is unavoidably out of date. Relying on the IPCC to downplay the ramifications of climate change is not a good idea. However, I agree causing fear about climate change probably isn't a good motivator.
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
Whether or not the IPCC is too conservative, I don't know a competing impact analysis that can claim to be as authoritative. You can pick away at the methods in dozens of ways but what's the alternative bottom line?
n/a minimalmoralias 2017-06-18
The IPCC is the primary intergovernmental body on climate change. I'm not aware of another singular report or committee that consists of such a diverse body of scientists or is considered as authoritative. There's the Stern Review, although it's much more limited in scope (and more controversial). However, the fact that the IPCC is considered authoritative and is intergovernmental is part of the problem: countries like the US, China, Saudi Arabia, etc. have a vested interest in making sure that the report underestimates climate change risks and is as conservative as possible. I mean, citing IPCC reports is fine, but only if you acknowledge that it is out of date, conservative, and that newer models are showing more dramatic changes (particularly with regards to rises in sea level). The IPCC reports themselves don't come up with climate data or models, just examine the current peer-reviewed literature, so when new models arise we need to take heed. And still, the Kyoto Protocol failed despite the existence of the IPCC, so I wonder if the IPCC's authoritative assessments are even efficacious, particularly considering their conservatism.
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
What I appreciate about the IPCC is that, as I understand it, it actually makes reasonable assumptions about how humans will adapt to climate change and model the costs. Rather than just assuming that rising sea levels will suddenly wipe away cities and all the people in them or whatever.
That's always the sticking point for me as an economist. Okay, the sea level rises. What's an actual reasonable cost estimate? At this point the question gets kicked over from the climatologists to the economists and we're all dirty neoliberals to the answer always comes out to be much less costly than people would expect. That's my broad take on these matters.
n/a jorio 2017-06-18
Wait, pk makes a text wall about how to debate with people he disagrees with and the person he doesn't respond to is the person actually willing to have a debate? C'mon dude....
n/a TheRealJohnAdams 2017-06-18
It might help if you tag /u/Prince_Kropotkin
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
Are people demanding I respond to someone saying that climate change isn't a big deal and that carbon taxes are fixing the problem? I'm not going to waste my time getting into a serious debate in this particular sub with actual idiots.
The response to "Knowing for certain that civilization would end in a century would only have a minor impact on stock markets based on traditional valuation methods, does that not say something about capitalism's short-termist tendencies" is "Maybe you just don't understand what prices are supposed to mean very well?". It's dumb and will be upvoted by people who are mad at me and desire very much that I'll get mad and freak out (since they've been waiting for months now), but don't understand the debate from either side.
n/a TheRealJohnAdams 2017-06-18
Don't tell me, tell him. I just wanted to make sure you saw it.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
I'm sure they'll see it. It doesn't matter either way, they didn't say anything intelligent.
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
When u/Prince_Kropotkin, was asked to produce examples of his ideology working in a large nation state, all he could come up with was the list below.
My favorite is the Paris Commune, which managed to exist for only two months. In less than a city.
That's some great, sustainable ideology you've got there, u/p_k!
n/a TheRealJohnAdams 2017-06-18
Alright. Out of curiosity, why should knowing for certain that civilization would be destroyed in a hundred years radically alter present prices? If nothing can be done, why should anything be changed?
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
In practice there would be widespread chaos, I'm sure. The point illustrated by that example, however, is that a society that is so strongly tied to the present that it institutionally doesn't really care much about its grandchildren all dying horrifically (and the discount rates implicit in political decision making in capitalist societies are taken from the markets!) is a fucked up one that is going to have a lot of trouble dealing with serious crises that arrive slowly and over time, even if they are predictable. Like climate change.
n/a TheRealJohnAdams 2017-06-18
But the example you gave doesn't show that at all. If everybody's going to die and there's nothing you can do about it, then what does it really demonstrate that prices might not change very much? "Everybody's going to die but there might be something we can do about it, and that something will make x y and z much more expensive" would affect prices more.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
If you used a 1% or 0.5% discount rate then stock prices would change dramatically, in fact. Because you would much more strongly take into account all the expected dividends after the meteor strike that will no longer exist. With a higher discount rate they would barely matter anyway.
Stock prices are basically the discounted sum of expected future dividends. I may have not made that sufficiently clear in my original exposition.
n/a TheRealJohnAdams 2017-06-18
I realize this. I'm just not clear what your point is -- it originally seemed as though you were bothered by the market's callousness towards future generations.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
Your responses thus far have definitely not given that impression. This has nothing to do with callousness or not. It's a thought experiment, and if you want to be extremely pedantic then just get away from it all together. "High society-wide rates of time preference make for bad responses to far-off crises until it's too late. Capitalism is such a system."
n/a TheRealJohnAdams 2017-06-18
Make up your mind.
You stipulated that any intervention was too late because extinction was certain. It's a shitty thought experiment.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
The market is not a single human being. It has no personality or morality. It simply is.
You're the first one pedantic enough to not get the point, and a lot of other people have found it effective and useful. So, uh, I don't care lol
n/a TheRealJohnAdams 2017-06-18
Astonishingly, markets may respond differently to different scenarios. It doesn't surprise me that people who don't realize this find you convincing.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
I hope this soon devolves into "I can't believe how stupid people are for agreeing with you" which is my absolute favorite response to deal with. You folks are so bad at persuasion, it's painful to watch.
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
High society-wide rates of time preference are not a function of capitalism. Capitalism channels them into prices, but yeah people who find future-discounting intrinsically objectionable should just be straightforward about that and argue that we as individuals should knock that shit off. Rather than making non-commital insinuations about how markets should respond to distant events. Is having people shrug off a 300-year meteor much less objectionable than a 100-year meteor in your book? Are you sure that your preferred form of non-capitalist society would generate a different result here? Why? Is not discounting the future a core tenet of anarchism?
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
They are, although not exclusively. Most societies historically de-linked market interest rates from the implicit time preference used in political decision making. Capitalism does not.
All else equal, that would be implying that we are much better at dealing with certain but far-off problems, so... yes?
Explained elsewhere in some detail. Look in the OP.
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
Are you asserting that market interest rates (removing risk premiums) are above some reasonable aggregate of the population discount rate? Or that non-capitalist policy makers have tended to use lower discount rates than the population discount rate? I don't think the former assertion can be supported so I'm curious about the latter.
It seems pretty autocratic to try to override people's discount rates in social choice, and I genuinely don't understand how an anarchist society would accomplish this. The best I can gather from your comments is that you think the problem would just be dodged because for some reason an anarchist society wouldn't be engaging in industrial processes that perpetuate climate change or whatever.... which is as cheap a solution as saying that capitalist societies can just geoengineer their way out of the problem. But even if I grant that it doesn't show that anarchists would solve the meteor problem you pose.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
The latter.
Historically speaking market interest rates (not account for risk, but w/e) have tended to be a few percent or more. I can't remember exactly but religious texts and other sources (I think Graeber brought this up in Debt!) tend to mention actual numbers, and even accounting for risk it isn't anything like 0.5%. Rates of time preference in market goods and services for individuals are almost certainly a few percent, even if we might discount hyperbolically instead of exponentially which complicates things.
The problem comes in when you try to force discount rates from market transactions to be identical to social discount rates for everything else. People might very well naturally have a 5% time preference over consumption goods, but they probably wouldn't say that about their grandchildren's standard of living. This is a flaw of capitalism in particular and why anarchist (or many other non-capitalist) societies would be different.
Look at the ancient Chinese. They had markets but merchants were the lowest social caste and decision making was based on Confucian principles, not whatever interest rates the merchants were charging. They had thousands of years of history to draw upon and expected thousands of years more to look forward to, and acted accordingly.
Nobody would solve that problem. The thought experiment is not that you can stop the meteor, it's that capitalist society wouldn't even really act any differently (in theory according to normal financial valuations, again something so stark as that would probably cause some death cults or whatever to form in reality and fuck up the normal functioning of capitalism) until the meteor got much closer, whereas other societies that are looking more toward the future would react pretty drastically. It's just a device to show that capitalism is pathologically short-termist even in absurd situations.
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
Iirc studies on intertemporal preferences have been done in indigenous societies and tend to find higher discounting. I don't think there's any literature that really supports the notion that non-market goods are broadly subjected to different discount rates than market goods.
Substantially discounting the future precedes capitalism (hell, I'm sure I could dig up primate studies on the subject) and will persist without it. It's fine to find it vulgar but you can't stop this from being translated into policy without using pretty forceful means.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
However they function, good political systems are able to deal with foreseeable problems arising in the long term and bad ones are not. If you want to boil down my critique to this then that's fine.
That seems a ridiculous leap of logic considering that many societies prior to capitalism did a better job of it and not all of them were habitually violent in their political systems. But this conversation has run its course, anyway.
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
I don't think "good" political systems can be as easily detached from the preferences of its citizens as you're imagining. If people don't think something is a problem and your political system reflects those preferences then one needs to build in additional assumptions to the critique that hopefully go beyond "well those preferences are shit and should be overridden."
I don't really think we have good ways to infer the implicit policy discount rates of pre-capitalist societies. Certainly cases of ecological collapse due to human activity are well-known - hunter-gatherers weren't particularly good at conserving mammoth populations, etc. And even if we could make those inferences it'd be unfair to take the best examples and assume that that would be achieved if capitalism were replaced.
Bottom line is that I don't see how an anarchist system where people discount the future by 3% per year and produces policies as if that discount rate were 0%. Seems to require magical thinking.
n/a heavenlytoaster 2017-06-18
Capitalism REEEE
n/a mtg_liebestod 2017-06-18
He doesn't reply to me directly because he knows that just calling me stupid a couple times rather than offering anything substantive would obviously look pretty bad.
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
When u/Prince_Kropotkin, was asked to produce examples of his ideology working in a large nation state, all he could come up with was the list below.
My favorite is the Paris Commune, which managed to exist for only two months. In less than a city.
That's some great, sustainable ideology you've got there, u/p_k!
n/a WikiTextBot 2017-06-18
Tsimihety people
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
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n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
just want you to know you're doing God's work son
n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
you mean what you've been doing all over this thread?
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
I don't mind shitposting here even though it appears a larger and larger percentage of the sub's population genuinely hate me or are trying to set me off. Sometimes its funny, increasingly just sad.
n/a NGC_6960 2017-06-18
NO
You think you can just apologize and then proceed to write a seriouspost with a wall of text bigger than US national debt?
Well... you actually can, but know that I'm very disappointed in you. Your parents would be, too.
n/a glmox 2017-06-18
ur a nerd pk
n/a freet0 2017-06-18
/u/Prince_Kropotkin this is pathetic lol
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
stay mad
n/a marsjazztrio 2017-06-18
You're so frustrated at the real world that you wrote a manifesto with footnotes.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
yes i am like ole' teddy k by copying and pasting some previous reddit comments into a big thread
you gotta try harder to make me upset, this is little league shit and I'm not impressed
n/a marsjazztrio 2017-06-18
Now you know how we feel
n/a Assy-McGee 2017-06-18
🔥🔥🔥
n/a leetdood_shadowban2 2017-06-18
What's ironic is you describe people flailing to rebut logical and sound arguments and yet you don't realize you do the same exact thing.
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
When u/Prince_Kropotkin was asked to produce examples of his ideology working in a large nation state, all he could come up with was the list below.
My favorite is the Paris Commune, which managed to exist for only two months. In less than a city.
That's some great, sustainable ideology you've got there, u/p_k!
n/a WikiTextBot 2017-06-18
Tsimihety people
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
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n/a freet0 2017-06-18
What kind of leftist needs a guide to debate mainstream capitalism? That is literally all they've been doing since the 1800s.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
Context matters and more guides are always useful.
I get a LOT of PMs thanking me and people telling me they're more interested in socialism and anarchism as a result of reading my comments, asking for book recommendations etc. I also see people using things I say, that "list" I keep, etc and attacking neoliberals in other places. I know how much impact I can have just as one person and it's a hell of a lot of fun.
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
n/a EarnestNoMeta 2017-06-18
Imterested in wiping it off the face of the earth, maybe.
n/a imprada 2017-06-18
PK confirmed to be /u/-6-6- alt.
n/a Herbert-West 2017-06-18
This is true, I got interested in anarchism because of PK's Reddit comments. I read his posts and thought "surely all anarchists can't be this retarded." Turns out they are.
n/a HULK_HOGAN_FASCISM 2017-06-18
> Not pinging him in the comment.
/u/Prince_Kropotkin
Hogan's got you brother
n/a Herbert-West 2017-06-18
> not understanding that he would see the message because I replied to him.
/u/prince_kroptokin, when you lead the angsty Neet uprising, please take out /u/hulk_hogan_fascism first.
n/a HULK_HOGAN_FASCISM 2017-06-18
I would love to be taken out by a manarchist tbh
n/a Somenakedguy 2017-06-18
n/a itsaboyffxiv 2017-06-18
Or, for that matter, because he's incessantly checking this thread
n/a freet0 2017-06-18
I'm sure you don't need to ping him, he's going to read every comment in this thread twice.
n/a imprada 2017-06-18
The best argument against anarchism is talking to an anarchist.
n/a Cloacalla_Festival 2017-06-18
n/a freet0 2017-06-18
You should write a guide on how to build a leftist society instead. No one is going to be swayed by even the most brutal takedown of neoliberalism when they see the alternative is the USSR or Venezuela.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
I have done that already, but pasting it here is a waste of my time. The usual crowd are already begging for my attention.
n/a EarnestNoMeta 2017-06-18
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
When u/Prince_Kropotkin was asked to produce examples of his ideology working in a large nation state, all he could come up with was the list below.
My favorite is the Paris Commune, which managed to exist for only two months. In less than a city.
That's some great, sustainable ideology you've got there, u/p_k!
n/a WikiTextBot 2017-06-18
Tsimihety people
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
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n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
It's almost like anarchism doesn't work, and people who think it does have a very poor grasp of history and politics in general
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-06-18
Anyone who can be persuaded anarchism is a good idea needs to have their handler monitor their internet time better.
n/a Kysbu 2017-06-18
Congratulations, you've managed to post the most retarded comment on r/drama today. Fucking r/drama: the sub that actively tries to be the worst sub on reddit.
That's almost impressive
n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
holy shit I'm actually laughing out loud
either this is satire or this guy is actually mentally disabled
n/a BannaHamHock 2017-06-18
Not disabled just delusional
n/a nanonan 2017-06-18
Quick question, in anarchist utopia which side of the road do you drive on?
n/a menvaren 2017-06-18
Everyone's on the old-timey bikes with the giant front wheel, so it doesn't really matter.
n/a DistortedLines 2017-06-18
The correct side, comrade, otherwise you'd be shot by the Revolutionary Reople's Rouncil of Traffic Affairs, which is part of the NotGovernmentTM
n/a Cloacalla_Festival 2017-06-18
Whichever side the Immortan tells you to.
n/a Thhueros 2017-06-18
Marxism or bust tbh
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
When u/Prince_Kropotkin was asked to produce examples of his ideology working in a large nation state, all he could come up with was the list below.
My favorite is the Paris Commune, which managed to exist for only two months. In less than a city.
That's some great, sustainable ideology you've got there, u/p_k!
n/a WikiTextBot 2017-06-18
Tsimihety people
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
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n/a AgentGotse 2017-06-18
New SnapshillBot quote
/r/drama mods pls
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
I'll have even more impact then, won't I? Immortalized in a reddit bot script, joy.
n/a AgentGotse 2017-06-18
not the kind of impact you imagine
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
Nobody ever thinks people who ideologically disagree with them strongly are credible, intelligent or able to make a difference. I hang around here sometimes to be amused at the clown show, but there isn't any hard-hitting intellectual debate going on here.
n/a RenegadeJoeson 2017-06-18
I can't even begin to imagine what it's like to be this retarded.
n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
wewlad
n/a mr2mark 2017-06-18
Wow, that is some hardcore multi-levelled anti-intellectual shit right there.
n/a BannaHamHock 2017-06-18
lol.. oh boy
n/a Cloacalla_Festival 2017-06-18
I still love u, PK.
n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
impact in drawing attention towards the mentally ill, maybe
n/a Cloacalla_Festival 2017-06-18
Personally, I'm not as opposed to communism as I am to communists.
What I am saying is that you can count me as one more person you have convinced to take up the red flag if you will first kys
n/a Kysbu 2017-06-18
Well they're mostly retarded so they need all the help they can get.
Only issue now is how are they gonna read it
n/a phoenixbasileus 2017-06-18
tbh not defamatory if it's true
n/a Mexagon 2017-06-18
You base your "debate" on how angry you make people. You're literally describing a troll. The fact you try and make yourself sound smarter is hilarious given the fact you obsess over spooky ol gamergate and its "calls for ethics in journalism." People give you shit here because we know we're trolls, and sanctimonious blowhards like you are perfect for the sub. Plus it helps how totally never mad you are whenever you spam this sub.
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
https://imgur.com/Qy2dzbh
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
When u/Prince_Kropotkin, was asked to produce examples of his ideology working in a large nation state, all he could come up with was the list below.
My favorite is the Paris Commune, which managed to exist for only two months. In less than a city
That's some great, sustainable ideology you've got there, u/p_k!
n/a WikiTextBot 2017-06-18
Tsimihety people
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
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n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
is this a new pasta
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
I'm just quoting a comment u/prince_kropotkin made about his ideology that is fucking hilarious.
To have him admit that those are the best examples of his ideology working in a "large nation state" is the best shit I've seen all day.
I might always paste it when I see a comment of his now. Feel free to do the same!
n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
it's really funny
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
I sometimes worry that anarchists like u/prince_kropotkin are too easy a target, but self-righteous agendaposter salt is my favorite salt.
n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
dude is making himself a target with his bullshit, I wouldn't feel too bad
n/a Wraith_GraveSpell 2017-06-18
Please don't, not because I like P_K but because the wikibot text is flooding everything.
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
When u/Prince_Kropotkin was asked to produce examples of his ideology working in a large nation state, all he could come up with was the list below.
My favorite is the Paris Commune, which managed to exist for only two months. In less than a city.
That's some great, sustainable ideology you've got there, u/p_k!
n/a WikiTextBot 2017-06-18
Tsimihety people
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
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n/a Nechaev 2017-06-18
Give it a rest.
You're spamming up this thread with the same fucking wikipasta in about a dozen places now.
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
When u/Prince_Kropotkin was asked to produce examples of his ideology working in a large nation state, all he could come up with was the list below.
My favorite is the Paris Commune, which managed to exist for only two months. In less than a city.
That's some great, sustainable ideology you've got there, u/p_k!
n/a WikiTextBot 2017-06-18
Tsimihety people
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
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n/a Nechaev 2017-06-18
kys
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
When u/Prince_Kropotkin was asked to produce examples of his ideology working in a large nation state, all he could come up with was the list below.
My favorite is the Paris Commune, which managed to exist for only two months. In less than a city.
That's some great, sustainable ideology you've got there, u/p_k!
n/a WikiTextBot 2017-06-18
Tsimihety people
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
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n/a Nechaev 2017-06-18
kys
n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
I'm okay with it, it's cracking me up
n/a Ylajali_2002 2017-06-18
Prince Kroptokin, what are your hobbies other than posting communist propaganda online?
Also how tall are you? No offense but I always imagined you were short.
n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
rulers are tools of the bourgeois comrade
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
That's literally all I do. I am an AI to post propaganda and make right-wingers incredibly upset.
n/a afclu13 2017-06-18
Why is it pathetic? Its way more coherent than anything you've ever posted!
n/a darth_stroyer 2017-06-18
NO
U
n/a freet0 2017-06-18
rude
n/a afclu13 2017-06-18
I take that back. But why is it pathetic?
n/a freet0 2017-06-18
He is seriously obsessed with that subreddit and cannot stop crying about it.
n/a afclu13 2017-06-18
He is an anarchist he definitely will have a difference of opinion with a neolib subreddit. Given that he debates a lot with the neo-libs and the neo-libs bait him in return it's fun and games for them. I'm guessing you don't like people having fun. Next you'll be calling furries pathetic.
n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
well
n/a BannaHamHock 2017-06-18
Other guy responded, but I'll chip it. Mostly it's pathetic because it's fucking Reddit. Who on God's green earth takes Reddit as seriously as PK? It's disturbing.
n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
EFFORT POSTING INTENSIFIES
n/a HULK_HOGAN_FASCISM 2017-06-18
Its funny because it's true and he's allergic to that :^)
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-06-18
I thought last week he swore to quit this place, yet he still comes back. He's not responding to all username pings anymore so please ensure to write "God bless Thatcher" after the ping.
n/a bleasehalb 2017-06-18
/u/CirqueduFudur how can you defend this autist?
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-06-18
I don't like neoliberalism either /u/hrei2, but it's not worse than a fucking meteor impact.
n/a Teresa_May 2017-06-18
THATCHER KILLED THE DINOSAURS
#NEVERFORGET
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-06-18
Then why is the Queen still alive? Why the fuck won't she die?
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-06-18
Simple, she is the second coming of Christ. Now swear eternal allegiance to your God and savior.
n/a PhysicsIsMyMistress 2017-06-18
Except that it is. I highly suggest you take a class in ecology.
n/a LefthandedLunatic 2017-06-18
Communist nations damages environment worst than developed capitalists nations.
n/a afclu13 2017-06-18
And its not capitalism that's selling and burning oil and coal or polluting rivers and other bodies.
n/a Assy-McGee 2017-06-18
Chernobyl was a Capitalist false-flag, I KNEW IT!
n/a DistortedLines 2017-06-18
Yeah lol because in my socialist utopia such resources will not be needed since everything will be running on fairy dust and magic
n/a ferongr 2017-06-18
How about the Helvetica sea?
n/a WithoutAComma 2017-06-18
FIIIINE.
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-06-18
I don't see why you'd argue with neoliberals, /u/Prince_Kropotkin . Whenever a far left or far right force comes to power, neoliberals tend to either change to the whims of the new regime or get killed. They're eager to debate until Doomsday, but they are not willing to fight or die for anything. You'll have to politically attack them.
n/a freet0 2017-06-18
This is true. They'll just follow wherever the progressives lead them and then pretend that's what their position was the entire time.
n/a darkaceAUS 2017-06-18
>Think that neo-liberals want to increase tariffs and implement an FTT
Hmmm
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
You're correct about this, but you have to build a socialist movement before neoliberals will (metaphorically, since I'm not a Marxist-Leninist) grovel at your feet.
n/a MegaSeedsInYourBum 2017-06-18
I updated this to something that's more possible. Of course the neoliberals will just go on to swear eternal allegiance to Knorne or Nurgle....🤔
n/a ironicshitpostr 2017-06-18
As a devotee of Malal, I endorse this.
n/a Ultrashitpost 2017-06-18
Fucking Malal hipsters, worse than loyalists i swear
n/a ironicshitpostr 2017-06-18
Malal hipsters lol
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
When u/Prince_Kropotkin was asked to produce examples of his ideology working in a large nation state, all he could come up with was the list below.
My favorite is the Paris Commune, which managed to exist for only two months. In less than a city.
That's some great, sustainable ideology you've got there, u/p_k!
n/a WikiTextBot 2017-06-18
Tsimihety people
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
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n/a voice-of-hermes 2017-06-18
Wow. Based on your post history, you seem to be a little obsessed with this list. I wonder why it bothers you so much....
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
He never posts any bussy :(
n/a Kysbu 2017-06-18
/u/Prince_Kropotkin unironically posted this. Let that sink in
n/a menvaren 2017-06-18
That's amazing.
n/a darkaceAUS 2017-06-18
Jokes on him most of us are first years
n/a Kysbu 2017-06-18
Im not even a neoliberal but as long as you guys keep triggering him i like yall
n/a darkaceAUS 2017-06-18
I've asked the other mods if I can do a meme response. The salt must flow.
n/a Kysbu 2017-06-18
Do it. Im all for commie tears
n/a LefthandedLunatic 2017-06-18
Im just a Feminist (jk I am an econ major)
n/a darkaceAUS 2017-06-18
Should have done poli-sci instead. My econ classes were far more conservative right wing than my poli-sci classes, which were full to the brim of why feminism is an integral part of the international order. Admittedly though it's hard to go further left than literal communism.
n/a LefthandedLunatic 2017-06-18
I can try.
n/a darkaceAUS 2017-06-18
lmao
n/a SlavophilesAnonymous 2017-06-18
r/ultraleft: you can't critique a political system if they hide all the details.
n/a Mexagon 2017-06-18
I've never heard a mature person use their own credentials as an argument.
n/a Kysbu 2017-06-18
Could be worse. Ive seen people unironically use their karma score as a """"credential"""" b4
n/a LefthandedLunatic 2017-06-18
PK has
n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
this dude is like a pasta factory
n/a The_Reason_Trump_Won 2017-06-18
Who the fuck would actually read all this shit without dying of boredom
n/a Prince_Kropotkin 2017-06-18
UPDATE: A furious /u/Illuminatesfolly has banned me from CB2 after getting banned from LWoE and is currently throwing a tantrum in modmail and my PMs.
n/a phoenixbasileus 2017-06-18
lmao look at him pretending he isn't the lolcow
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
When u/Prince_Kropotkin, was asked to produce examples of his ideology working in a large nation state, all he could come up with was the list below.
My favorite is the Paris Commune, which managed to exist for only two months. In less than a city.
That's some great, sustainable ideology you've got there, u/p_k!
n/a WikiTextBot 2017-06-18
Tsimihety people
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
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n/a none_to_remain 2017-06-18
Look at this guy who is gonna help M. Macron rule France.
Guy has a Fields Medal and a number of spider brooches.
n/a Edgar_Allan_Pho 2017-06-18
Why does PK hate the global poor?
n/a ironicshitpostr 2017-06-18
Because they're too stupid to realize how anarchism is the real answer to climate change.
n/a zahlman 2017-06-18
So basically, literally any argument works against sjw types?
n/a zahlman 2017-06-18
/u/prince_kropotkin okay, I'll bite. What are the communist plans for addressing climate change, and for enforcing those policies?
n/a jorio 2017-06-18
No, no. What one does is come up with an ideal, criticize capitalism for failing to live up to that ideal, and then simply imply that one has a better solution. Vagueness is key here.
n/a Danthon 2017-06-18
This is what I never got about this argument. The workers have already decided they don't give a shit really, at least not enough of one to sacrifice their quality of life. So how will socialism/communism change anything?
n/a Ikea_Man 2017-06-18
no
n/a LemonScore 2017-06-18
I like PK but I don't actually understand why.
n/a jorio 2017-06-18
No,no. What you do is come up with an ideal, criticize capitalism for failing to live up to that ideal, and then simply imply that you have a better solution.
n/a ur_mom_IoI 2017-06-18
ur retarded
n/a imprada 2017-06-18
The kind of shitposting a student loan debt gets you.
n/a Ultimatex 2017-06-18
When u/Prince_Kropotkin, was asked to produce examples of his ideology working in a large nation state, all he could come up with was the list below.
My favorite is the Paris Commune, which managed to exist for only two months. In a single city.
That's some real sustainable ideology you've got there, u/p_k!
n/a WikiTextBot 2017-06-18
Tsimihety people
The Tsimihety are a Malagasy ethnic group who are found in the north-central region of Madagascar. Their name means "those who never cut their hair", a behavior likely linked to their independence from Sakalava kingdom, located to their west, where cutting hair at the time of mourning was expected. They are found in mountainous part of the island. They are one of the largest Malagasy ethnic groups and their population estimates range between 700,000 and over 1.2 million. This estimation places them as the fourth-largest ethnicity in Madagascar.
Zapatista Army of National Liberation
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN), often referred to as the Zapatistas [sapaˈtistas], is a revolutionary leftist political and militant group based in Chiapas, the southernmost state of Mexico.
Since 1994 the group has been in a declared war against the Mexican state, and against military, paramilitary and corporate incursions into Chiapas. This war has been primarily defensive. In recent years, it has focused on a strategy of civil resistance. The Zapatistas' main body is made up of mostly rural indigenous people, but includes some supporters in urban areas and internationally.
Kibbutz
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; regular plural kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises. Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.
Paris Commune
The Paris Commune (French: La Commune de Paris, IPA: [la kɔmyn də paʁi]) was a radical socialist and revolutionary government that ruled Paris from 18 March to 28 May 1871. Following the defeat of Emperor Napoleon III in September 1870, the French Second Empire swiftly collapsed. In its stead rose a Third Republic at war with Prussia, which laid siege to Paris for four months. A hotbed of working-class radicalism, France's capital was primarily defended during this time by the often politicized and radical troops of the National Guard rather than regular Army troops. In February 1871 Adolphe Thiers, the new chief executive of the French national government, signed an armistice with Prussia that disarmed the Army but not the National Guard.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were de facto in command of most of the economy and military forces.
Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of 1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories, collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish nationalists and the Catholic clergy.
Free Territory
The Free Territory (Ukrainian: Вільна територія vilna terytoriya; Russian: Вольная территория volnaya territoriya) or Makhnovia (Махновщина Makhnovshchyna) resulted from an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 to 1921. It existed from 1918 to 1921, during which time "free soviets" and libertarian communes operated under the protection of Nestor Makhno's Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army. The area had a population of around seven million.
Russian forces of the White movement under Anton Denikin occupied the territory and formed a temporary government of Southern Russia in March 1920, but in late March 1920 Denikin's forces retreated from the area, driven out by the Red Army in cooperation with Makhno's forces, whose units conducted guerrilla warfare behind Denikin's lines.
As the Free Territory self-organized along anarchist principles, references to "control" and "government" are highly contentious.
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n/a ToxiComa 2017-06-18
I legit love /u/Prince_Kropotkin <3
n/a SlavophilesAnonymous 2017-06-18
u/Prince_Kropotkin your praxis is shit.
n/a mountlightsparkling 2017-06-18
too long, didn't read.
the way to do it is the jon stewart method, LARP as an enlightened neutral with neutrality being basic bitch leftism/rightism whichever one you're shilling.
n/a EddingtonDidNothingW 2017-06-18
lmao literally r/neoliberal derangement syndrome
n/a Illyana_Rasputin 2017-06-18
The problem is not that there is neoliberalism in the world, the problem is that there is /u/Prince_Kropotkin, because otherwise who would care?
n/a Nechaev 2017-06-18
I was going to upvote until I saw you were just as retarded with the copypasta spamming.
:snore:
n/a mr2mark 2017-06-18
I like how his tin pot sub has this in the sidebar.
and he has such a ridiculous thread with his comments like this:
n/a Cloacalla_Festival 2017-06-18
Flawless.