Like, my perspective is that tweeting about thanking men (as a dude myself) on International Women's Day because there's lots of us who do stuff to help equality is a bit pointless, because like... doing that is a basic level of human decency, and we shouldn't need to be praised for doing the bare minimum to be a good person (i.e treating everyone equally and fairly), that should be the absolute baseline.
u/mysteriousdrd, since when is thanking people for helping you out not also baseline human decency and the bare minimum to be a good person?
Tangential story, I held a door open last weekend for a pretty girl on her phone and she didnt even look at me or acknowledge my $150 limited edition fedora...
Hi! That's a good point that wasn't made in the replies I got over there (well, it might have been but I got tonnes of responses and it's hard to track).
So I think that comes down to how you view 'baseline' here. In most cases, baseline is like not being a jerk, bothering people etc, and helping out is doing nice things, opening a door for a stranger or buying a coffee for the next person in line at Starbucks or whatever. The core point being there, that you didn't have to do something but you did so that's praiseworthy. Whereas my point of view is that supporting women and using our privileged position in society to help correct the inequality and sexism that has persisted in society is a baseline thing that all men should do, thus not really worthy of praise.
It seems we might view that particular topic differently, but I see where you're coming from and it's a good point that helped me clarify my own thoughts on the matter, cheers :)
If you want people to act a certain way you'd used positive or negative reinforcement. If you really want an equitable world for women, giving positive reinforcement to men for acting in alignment with your goals seems like a good idea. By not embracing it and objecting to it, it seems to me you don't really care about women, but just standing out from the crowd.
pragmatically, you might be right - i discussed that same idea a bit further down in the post I made in the original thread that the positive reinforcement is potentially a good way to change people's minds and that it's not just a binary "this thing is entirely good/bad" situation for that tweet we were discussing, but I'm also somewhat conflicted about that because it's kinda shitty that we need to use positive reinforcement and praise rather than just folks recognising the need for equality and doing what in my view is the right thing. But in that case, I could be misguidedly optimistic.
What the hell is wrong with you? You're sitting here waffling over whether or not it's good to give people compliments for doing good things, after having said that the people who sent this lady death threats for saying a mild compliment may have a point since "this is NOT a binary thing".
How are people like you real?
it's kinda shitty that we need to use positive reinforcement and praise rather than just folks recognising the need for equality and doing what in my view is the right thing
"It really sucks that I have to act nice to people to get them to join my side, when joining my side should OBVIOUSLY be common sense."
I can definitely see the point you're making here, and I probably wasn't as clear in my points as I could have been - but I feel like we're removing a lot of context from the discussion here (and I didn't help with this either because I responded to the username mention here in a bit of a vaccum on one specific point), but if I was to reiterate what I was saying in the first post I made, it's that:
1) it's worth examining points people are making (especially if they run counter to your own views), even if there's people who share that same view being really shitty and abusive.
2) A contingent of people being shitty and abusive to a person doesn't mean that person is immune to criticism
3) Because of 1 & 2, the situation is pretty complex, and it's pretty common that there are good aspects to a thing being criticised, and just because we have criticism doesn't mean we're automatically in the camp of 'this person/media etc is bad and awful' and in fact we can be very much in support of the person or thing we're criticising, it's just pointing out one particular issue in a very complex situation.
I kind of mixed that up when I went talking about my own perspective and views on the matter, which are kind of independent to the other point I was making, in retrospect. I appreciate you pointing that out, because I didn't really think about that aspect.
You're acting like this is some morally gray minefield that we need to dissect when it's not. Some developer lady tweeted thanks to men for endeavoring to treat women with equality on a holiday celebrating exactly that, then received death threats for it.
For fuck's sake there's nothing ambiguous about this unless you think it's PROBLEMATIC to thank people for good behavior.
Sorry dude, I disagree with you - the point I was making is for the general case with this thing as a specific example of it, of people who hold a view which may be valid (or is at least a conversation in itself about the viewpoint) acting in an absolutely unacceptable way because someone else doesn't hold that view and that unacceptable behaviour not making that viewpoint invalid by default. The problem being these people acted in a really bad, reprehensible way rather than engaging in a productive discussion with someone who clearly had good intentions. Anyway I think we're probably not going to agree on this fundamentally but regardless it was good to hear a dissenting counterpoint that pointed out some of the weaknesses in my arguments, cheers!
Whereas my point of view is that supporting women and using our privileged position in society to help correct the inequality and sexism that has persisted in society is a baseline thing that all men should do, thus not really worthy of praise.
The first thing here is that at first you're defining baseline in a passive, simple, unobtrusive sense ("not being a jerk, not bothering people") and then turning around and redefining it to include stuff that actually requires significant, active and ongoing effort like "correct[ing] the inequality and sexism in society".
And at the same time this doesn't really answer my original question, which is, if "correcting the inequality and sexism in society" is baseline human decency, fine, why is saying thank you for it not also baseline human decency, the way saying thank you for everything is considered the baseline in basically every other area of human interaction?
Like when my waiter brings me my dinner at the restaurant I'm pretty sure they're obligated to do that, since it's literally their job that I'm paying them to do, but I still say thank you, because it's basic human decency to do that sort of thing. So if someone say, went out of their way to support me in my career and helped Fight the Legacy of Oppression on my behalf, why wouldn't I through an utterly basic and costless thank you in their direction for that, for no other reason than I myself am obligated to not be a jerk.
I just want to thank you for mansplaining to women why they shouldn't be thanking people who treat them equally. Put those women in their place if they want to treat men equally I always say.
So I think that comes down to how you view 'baseline' here. In most cases, baseline is like not being a jerk, bothering people etc, and helping out is doing nice things, opening a door for a stranger or buying a coffee for the next person in line at Starbucks or whatever.
Serious question: how often has a complete stranger of a woman bought you coffee at Starbucks? Does this not imply your 'baseline' attitudes aren't shared by everyone else?
Why do so many feminists seem to have an insatiable desire to micromanage womens behavior?
Seriously, take a step back for just a second and think about what you're saying here. Even if you're genuinely socially illiterate and can't understand that praise is given not only (or even primarily) because it is "deserved," but also because it encourages socially or morally desirable behavior -- surely you can understand how utterly inconsequential your supposed worries here are, right? Literally nothing you said has any effect whatsoever on the real world. It would be one thing if a big advertising campaign by a feminist organization tried to paint men as the saviors of feminism, but you're complaining about an individual tweet by an individual woman, because, in your view, it's not quite on brand. And all this in response to the woman receiving death threats.
Your worries here are beyond trivial, they are actively misogynistic. And while you clearly aren't the most thoughtful or intelligent guy around, stupidity alone cannot explain why you thought it was reasonable and meaningful to devote multiple paragraphs to the question of whether a woman should ever thank a man. You were very clearly looking for an excuse to police and control a woman's expression. Couching your desire as feminist hand wringing does nothing to obscure that fact.
Can anyone still be surprised when so many male feminists turn out to be serial rapists?
You're applying a lot of actions and things I didn't actually say to me here my man. Soe is a grown woman and just because I'm critical of this specific tweet she made doesn't mean I think she should change her actions, everyone has autonomy and my own criticism (just like yours and everyone else's in this thread) is fundamentally subject to my own biases. I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed by your standards, but I'm not going to tell her to change her behaviour or views or whatever, even if I'm critical of this one example. I do however think that it's valid to apply criticism even if it's someone I like or respect, media that I enjoy and think is generally a good thing or person, criticism doesn't invalidate that and it's not a call for forced change or censorship of anyone's expression, it's simply a comment on that expression. That's a fundamental misunderstanding I keep seeing in various forms, which is partially why I made the original post, the concept that any criticism, however mild is an active call for censorship rather than just a comment that's up to the person receiving the criticism (or in this case, not receiving the criticism at all because I'm posting about in on reddit rather than bothering Soe about it on twitter because it's not all that big a deal to bother that specific person about it when I'm more interested in discussing it in the thread that was made for discussion (well and over here because someone username mentioned me and y'all have been replying to that response).
You're definitely right that it's utterly inconsequential, but that's kind of what reddit is, and having the discussion has been an interesting way to have my own views challenged and see what other people think about it too as well as making me think about aspects of my own point of view I may not have fully thought out until someone asked. Not everything needs to end in solving the problems of the world.
Anyway, if I was looking to police and control someone's expression, then I wouldn't really achieve that by posting on an overwatch forum thread!
One thing I have found to be true of late is that anybody who uses 'dude' like that is probably a bag of shit. Ditto 'shitty', good old 'literally', classic 'problematic', 'gross' and 'baby' or some variation thereof as a pejorative.
Sal garbage. Its 2018, you think people would be numb to this by now. Hell, you know some nigga who makes YouTube videos about fast food prob gets death threats just because he said Chick-fil-a is pleb shit.
One thing I have found to be true of late is that anybody who uses 'dude' like that is probably a bag of shit. Ditto 'shitty', good old 'literally', classic 'problematic', 'gross' and 'baby' or some variation thereof as a pejorative.
55 comments
1 nmx179 2018-03-09
u/mysteriousdrd, since when is thanking people for helping you out not also baseline human decency and the bare minimum to be a good person?
1 TUMS_FESTIVAL 2018-03-09
My friend said thank you to someone for holding a door open and I literally screamed at them for perpetuating rape cultural.
1 saddertadder 2018-03-09
Tangential story, I held a door open last weekend for a pretty girl on her phone and she didnt even look at me or acknowledge my $150 limited edition fedora...
1 DannyLee90 2018-03-09
F
1 MacAndShits 2018-03-09
They're the reason why chivalry is dead, not my lacking hygiene and morbid obesity
1 MysteriousDrD 2018-03-09
Hi! That's a good point that wasn't made in the replies I got over there (well, it might have been but I got tonnes of responses and it's hard to track).
So I think that comes down to how you view 'baseline' here. In most cases, baseline is like not being a jerk, bothering people etc, and helping out is doing nice things, opening a door for a stranger or buying a coffee for the next person in line at Starbucks or whatever. The core point being there, that you didn't have to do something but you did so that's praiseworthy. Whereas my point of view is that supporting women and using our privileged position in society to help correct the inequality and sexism that has persisted in society is a baseline thing that all men should do, thus not really worthy of praise.
It seems we might view that particular topic differently, but I see where you're coming from and it's a good point that helped me clarify my own thoughts on the matter, cheers :)
1 SAC-Lawn_Gnome 2018-03-09
If you want people to act a certain way you'd used positive or negative reinforcement. If you really want an equitable world for women, giving positive reinforcement to men for acting in alignment with your goals seems like a good idea. By not embracing it and objecting to it, it seems to me you don't really care about women, but just standing out from the crowd.
1 MysteriousDrD 2018-03-09
pragmatically, you might be right - i discussed that same idea a bit further down in the post I made in the original thread that the positive reinforcement is potentially a good way to change people's minds and that it's not just a binary "this thing is entirely good/bad" situation for that tweet we were discussing, but I'm also somewhat conflicted about that because it's kinda shitty that we need to use positive reinforcement and praise rather than just folks recognising the need for equality and doing what in my view is the right thing. But in that case, I could be misguidedly optimistic.
1 SAC-Lawn_Gnome 2018-03-09
A lot of things we do would fall into the kinda shitty categories using that low a threshold
1 PlasticSyrup 2018-03-09
What the hell is wrong with you? You're sitting here waffling over whether or not it's good to give people compliments for doing good things, after having said that the people who sent this lady death threats for saying a mild compliment may have a point since "this is NOT a binary thing".
How are people like you real?
"It really sucks that I have to act nice to people to get them to join my side, when joining my side should OBVIOUSLY be common sense."
1 MysteriousDrD 2018-03-09
I can definitely see the point you're making here, and I probably wasn't as clear in my points as I could have been - but I feel like we're removing a lot of context from the discussion here (and I didn't help with this either because I responded to the username mention here in a bit of a vaccum on one specific point), but if I was to reiterate what I was saying in the first post I made, it's that:
1) it's worth examining points people are making (especially if they run counter to your own views), even if there's people who share that same view being really shitty and abusive.
2) A contingent of people being shitty and abusive to a person doesn't mean that person is immune to criticism
3) Because of 1 & 2, the situation is pretty complex, and it's pretty common that there are good aspects to a thing being criticised, and just because we have criticism doesn't mean we're automatically in the camp of 'this person/media etc is bad and awful' and in fact we can be very much in support of the person or thing we're criticising, it's just pointing out one particular issue in a very complex situation.
I kind of mixed that up when I went talking about my own perspective and views on the matter, which are kind of independent to the other point I was making, in retrospect. I appreciate you pointing that out, because I didn't really think about that aspect.
1 PlasticSyrup 2018-03-09
You're acting like this is some morally gray minefield that we need to dissect when it's not. Some developer lady tweeted thanks to men for endeavoring to treat women with equality on a holiday celebrating exactly that, then received death threats for it.
For fuck's sake there's nothing ambiguous about this unless you think it's PROBLEMATIC to thank people for good behavior.
1 MysteriousDrD 2018-03-09
Sorry dude, I disagree with you - the point I was making is for the general case with this thing as a specific example of it, of people who hold a view which may be valid (or is at least a conversation in itself about the viewpoint) acting in an absolutely unacceptable way because someone else doesn't hold that view and that unacceptable behaviour not making that viewpoint invalid by default. The problem being these people acted in a really bad, reprehensible way rather than engaging in a productive discussion with someone who clearly had good intentions. Anyway I think we're probably not going to agree on this fundamentally but regardless it was good to hear a dissenting counterpoint that pointed out some of the weaknesses in my arguments, cheers!
1 ParticularVillage 2018-03-09
your view makes sense if feminism is more about hating men than about improving things for women.
1 Neon_needles 2018-03-09
Eat my ass out, nerd.
1 Odemdemz98 2018-03-09
Leave him alone you stupid spastic he's a nice guy.
1 Neon_needles 2018-03-09
no way, life is a free for all and it's a dog eat dog ass world out there.
1 mygoodpostingalt 2018-03-09
how long 'til he gets added to the nice-guy male feminist list
1 die_rattin 2018-03-09
1 nmx179 2018-03-09
The first thing here is that at first you're defining baseline in a passive, simple, unobtrusive sense ("not being a jerk, not bothering people") and then turning around and redefining it to include stuff that actually requires significant, active and ongoing effort like "correct[ing] the inequality and sexism in society".
And at the same time this doesn't really answer my original question, which is, if "correcting the inequality and sexism in society" is baseline human decency, fine, why is saying thank you for it not also baseline human decency, the way saying thank you for everything is considered the baseline in basically every other area of human interaction?
Like when my waiter brings me my dinner at the restaurant I'm pretty sure they're obligated to do that, since it's literally their job that I'm paying them to do, but I still say thank you, because it's basic human decency to do that sort of thing. So if someone say, went out of their way to support me in my career and helped Fight the Legacy of Oppression on my behalf, why wouldn't I through an utterly basic and costless thank you in their direction for that, for no other reason than I myself am obligated to not be a jerk.
1 itoucheditforacookie 2018-03-09
I just want to thank you for mansplaining to women why they shouldn't be thanking people who treat them equally. Put those women in their place if they want to treat men equally I always say.
1 die_rattin 2018-03-09
Serious question: how often has a complete stranger of a woman bought you coffee at Starbucks? Does this not imply your 'baseline' attitudes aren't shared by everyone else?
1 Ylajali_2002 2018-03-09
Why do so many feminists seem to have an insatiable desire to micromanage womens behavior?
Seriously, take a step back for just a second and think about what you're saying here. Even if you're genuinely socially illiterate and can't understand that praise is given not only (or even primarily) because it is "deserved," but also because it encourages socially or morally desirable behavior -- surely you can understand how utterly inconsequential your supposed worries here are, right? Literally nothing you said has any effect whatsoever on the real world. It would be one thing if a big advertising campaign by a feminist organization tried to paint men as the saviors of feminism, but you're complaining about an individual tweet by an individual woman, because, in your view, it's not quite on brand. And all this in response to the woman receiving death threats.
Your worries here are beyond trivial, they are actively misogynistic. And while you clearly aren't the most thoughtful or intelligent guy around, stupidity alone cannot explain why you thought it was reasonable and meaningful to devote multiple paragraphs to the question of whether a woman should ever thank a man. You were very clearly looking for an excuse to police and control a woman's expression. Couching your desire as feminist hand wringing does nothing to obscure that fact.
Can anyone still be surprised when so many male feminists turn out to be serial rapists?
1 MysteriousDrD 2018-03-09
You're applying a lot of actions and things I didn't actually say to me here my man. Soe is a grown woman and just because I'm critical of this specific tweet she made doesn't mean I think she should change her actions, everyone has autonomy and my own criticism (just like yours and everyone else's in this thread) is fundamentally subject to my own biases. I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed by your standards, but I'm not going to tell her to change her behaviour or views or whatever, even if I'm critical of this one example. I do however think that it's valid to apply criticism even if it's someone I like or respect, media that I enjoy and think is generally a good thing or person, criticism doesn't invalidate that and it's not a call for forced change or censorship of anyone's expression, it's simply a comment on that expression. That's a fundamental misunderstanding I keep seeing in various forms, which is partially why I made the original post, the concept that any criticism, however mild is an active call for censorship rather than just a comment that's up to the person receiving the criticism (or in this case, not receiving the criticism at all because I'm posting about in on reddit rather than bothering Soe about it on twitter because it's not all that big a deal to bother that specific person about it when I'm more interested in discussing it in the thread that was made for discussion (well and over here because someone username mentioned me and y'all have been replying to that response).
You're definitely right that it's utterly inconsequential, but that's kind of what reddit is, and having the discussion has been an interesting way to have my own views challenged and see what other people think about it too as well as making me think about aspects of my own point of view I may not have fully thought out until someone asked. Not everything needs to end in solving the problems of the world.
Anyway, if I was looking to police and control someone's expression, then I wouldn't really achieve that by posting on an overwatch forum thread!
1 meatpuppet79 2018-03-09
One thing I have found to be true of late is that anybody who uses 'dude' like that is probably a bag of shit. Ditto 'shitty', good old 'literally', classic 'problematic', 'gross' and 'baby' or some variation thereof as a pejorative.
1 snappleteadrink 2018-03-09
Fuck off dude
1 meatpuppet79 2018-03-09
Don't be gross
1 newfagalt 2018-03-09
Y'all think you're so smart. You bros need to educate yourselves.
1 IllAudience 2018-03-09
What do you wanna bet that those """threats""" are people saying shit like "kill yourself" or "i hope you die"
1 Neon_needles 2018-03-09
Sal garbage. Its 2018, you think people would be numb to this by now. Hell, you know some nigga who makes YouTube videos about fast food prob gets death threats just because he said Chick-fil-a is pleb shit.
1 Forum_Rage 2018-03-09
who the fuck said chick-fil-ayyy is anything less than above average those nuggets are fast, cheap, and good where the fuck else does that happen
1 Neon_needles 2018-03-09
He's in hiding right now. I refuse to give up his location just so you can murder him with your gamegate goons.
1 WhiteKnightForGod 2018-03-09
Actually reviewbrah was getting hardcore stalked at one point and I think someone poisoned his neighbors dog or something.
1 BumwineBaudelaire 2018-03-09
doesn’t matter, feminists have ruled empty threats from anonymous eggs are equivalent to rape
live by the legbeard, die by the legbeard
1 Neon_needles 2018-03-09
Oh... oh no... no... not angry tweets... dear God no....
1 grungebot5000 2018-03-09
wait, Winston talks?
he ain't a monkey tho
1 TUMS_FESTIVAL 2018-03-09
He's an ape!
1 grungebot5000 2018-03-09
A-P-E APE!!
1 Sethal4395 2018-03-09
*Scientist
1 Velvet_Llama 2018-03-09
> imblying that grills are real
1 MacAndShits 2018-03-09
grills don't need to store pee anywhere if they don't exist
1 The_Almighty_Demoham 2018-03-09
C'mon fellas, we're better than this, international womens day should be a day of peace, just like international mens day...
Oh wait. Nvm.
1 Irrel_M 2018-03-09
Their entire ideology could be boiled down to
1 meatpuppet79 2018-03-09
One thing I have found to be true of late is that anybody who uses 'dude' like that is probably a bag of shit. Ditto 'shitty', good old 'literally', classic 'problematic', 'gross' and 'baby' or some variation thereof as a pejorative.
1 voicelesshoodwinker 2018-03-09
"Still playing Overwatch in 2018" Smh.....
1 Ikinhaszkarmakplx2 2018-03-09
Who dis?
1 dramallllama 2018-03-09
** ANONYMOUS THREATS HAVE BEEN MADE AGAINST A WHITE WOMAN. TAKE IS TO DEFCON 2. **
1 Ohpiekang 2018-03-09
Dora the explorer?
Nope.
Donkey Kong?
Not even close.
.... Dragon age 2?
🖓😬 It's overwatch boi
Winston is a fucking gorilla, not a monkey.