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As we witness the fall of the American empire, it's the perfect time to read the Foundation series (by Isaac Asimov)

The correct order is:

Foundation

Foundation and Empire

Second Foundation

Foundation's Edge

Foundation and Earth

Prelude to Foundation

Forward the Foundation

You can find them all online for free via internet archive.

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!historychads !neolibs Thoughts on Hari Seldon?

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If there was anything to the concept of psychohistory, Asimov would have actually invented it instead of writing a novel where somebody else does. :soyjakanimeglasses: "I knew what you were going to do" x1000

History only seems sensible in retrospect, but it's full of black swan moments.

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Yeah, that's the whole point of the second and third books. Seldon's math couldn't predict an extraordinary individual like the Mule, but he knew psychohistory was just a numbers game and playing the odds wouldn't be enough to make it through a thousand years. So he set up the Second Foundation to keep things on track. Are you r-slurred? Because this was not a subtle concept. It's explicitly spelled out multiple times. :marseydunce:

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As I said in the other comment, I only read the first book. I don't recall the book (composed of multiple stories originally released over time) really interrogating the concept of psychohistory at all (um a crisis will happen in fifty years because it just will, all right?). I appreciate if things get more complicated in the later books, but Asimov quite possibly wrote that to address people's criticisms or his own views of the setting's failings. I don't think I'm an r-slur for critiquing the first book as a standalone.

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Not every aspect of every concept needs to be fully interrogated at every moment. Especially since psychohistory is essentially taking the idea of "social history" or "history from below", and applying the law of large numbers to create something predictive, but only over a sufficiently massive population. I'm pretty sure that was actually mentioned in the first book. That the only reason psychohistory was able to work at all is because it was averaging the actions of the entirety of the Galactic Empire, complete with population of one quintillion. :marseystars2:

The obvious counterpoint to that is the same as the counterpoint to "history from below" in general, "great man theory". So after a few stories of the Foundation doing their thing, in comes a sufficiently "great man" to frick things up. And to make clear that that's what's happened, Asimov uses a recurring element that I'm pretty sure was established in the stories in the first book, where a recording of Seldon is played from time to time, and always includes the percentage chance that the Plan is on track, with the number decreasing every time. So yeah, the fact that psychohistory was just a numbers game is pretty well established in the first book alone. The bit about the Second Foundation existing and operating behind the scenes to keep the Plan on track wasn't established until the second book, but like I said, not every aspect of every concept needs to be fully explained, front and center, right off the bat. :marseygeorgerrmartingenocide:

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The hole in my view is that the 2F would stay on track. They're a small group, so keeping them motivated to keep things on track can't rely on psycohistory. I'm surprised they didn't go rogue or split in a power struggle. Didn't they have some level of mind control or am I misremembering? I guess you could do that to all new members to make them perfectly committed to the organization's goals. Also people generally like civilization surviving.

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Jesse what the frick are you talking about??

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Psychohistory makes a lot of sense in the early '40s. Look at ww2 in Europe. If somebody in 1940 knew the population, steel production, electricity output, military efficiency, etc. of all the major powers they could have pretty well guessed how the war would end even if they had no idea what battles would be fought.

Note that while nuclear weapons are mentioned in Foundation, they have nothing to do with real life nuclear weapons because they didn't exist yet so Asimov had no idea how they would work. Nukes create a huge amount of uncertainty because the choices made by an individual person in an instant suddenly really do matter.

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