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Big nerd fight over what "reproducible" means , NixOS fanboys go wild when an Archlinux maintainer kicks the bees nest.
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I use Arch BTW
Snapshots:
https://lobste.rs/s/jpoy4q/nixos_is_not_reproducible:
ghostarchive.org
archive.org
archive.ph (click to archive)
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!slotsmb2000
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Enjoy the reproducible builds snaps!
Follower of Christ Tech lover, IT Admin, heckin pupper lover and occasionally troll. I hold back feelings or opinions, right or wrong because I dislike conflict.
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I would legitimately recommend reading the OP blog post first - it outlines his exact compliant (people keep thinking NixOS is reproducible, but NixOS uses the term differently/wrongly) and the people on Lobsters completely miss it and get very pissy
https://linderud.dev/blog/nixos-is-not-reproducible/
Follower of Christ Tech lover, IT Admin, heckin pupper lover and occasionally troll. I hold back feelings or opinions, right or wrong because I dislike conflict.
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Having needed to package some horrible maven packages, some build systems are just aggressively anti-reproducible. Maven doesn't even always read the same set of files, given identical inputs and just asked to make an output jarfile, you will get wildly different files every time.
Nix has fixed-output derivations for bit-identical outputs anyway, but I'm glad I'm not forced to fix Maven's brain damage just to use nix.
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"Reproducible builds" means bit for bit the same. The entire point is to let you verify a prebuilt binary. These nixos devs sound r-slurred.
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To me it seems like the original NixOS paper used “reproducible” to mean “making a system functionally the same” but about 2016-ish the “reproducible builds” movement was adamant about their version of “bit for bit” reproducibility.
The former party seems to be digging their heels in for some reason and denying this is a commonly held misconception.
Follower of Christ Tech lover, IT Admin, heckin pupper lover and occasionally troll. I hold back feelings or opinions, right or wrong because I dislike conflict.
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Do you agree with the nixos devs?
I'm just not sure what purpose "reproducible" serves if it just means "kinda does the same thing". Having it be bit-for-bit the same serves a very important technical purpose which is why the "reproducible builds" movement is aiming for that. Shit, we even have these kinds of builds at my job - we want the hashes of binaries built from the same source code to be the same. It needs to be EXACTLY the same for this to work.
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I don't. I had originally thought that's what “reproducible” meant even in the NixOS context. They seem to be denying they benefit from the misconception even though this could have nasty consequences if you believe this.
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It's too late Ken Thompson already put his hack in the compiler
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Don't trust anyone not even trust
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if we redefine reproducibility, we're reproducible
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I think they have a decent case they were using it that way first but clearly bit-for-bit is what people mean now. They seem to deny this though.
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I switched to nix on my macbook because I wanted to and was marginally disappointed. It's nice and does everything I want it to, but like:
I ended up just using nix-darwin and a few packages with mac-specific builds, so I think moving my config to linux would be a hassle
Post-install config is still fiddly without using home manager which appears unstable and at least as annoying as nix itself
For Rust as best I can tell the correct approach is to install rustup and use that for to actually install da tools, at which point it might as well be homebrew
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Hmm, I was considering trying nix-Darwin too.
Nothing was stopping me, but frankly homebrew works fine? I'm new to macOS and with all the moaning I heard I thought it was going to break a lot more
Maybe I'll need to go through a full version upgrade first
Follower of Christ Tech lover, IT Admin, heckin pupper lover and occasionally troll. I hold back feelings or opinions, right or wrong because I dislike conflict.
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nix-darwin is cozy and feels less crufty than homebrew + all the system configs in one file is genuinely kewl, but it's not straightforwardly worth switching imo.
Also casks are awesome and I'm keeping brew around for them, so you won't go to zero packages if you switch.
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