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:schopenmarsey: :marseybigbrain: ETHICS DEBATE #3: Now I Am Become Death :marseyoppenheimer: :marseynukegoggles:

Alright, no more discussion of the limits of free trade. Let's talk about technology. I saw a lively debate on here between @TheTroubleWithPibbles, @August, @Geralt_of_Uganda, etc, about whether it is ethical to develop technologies...

Scenario

This, of course, actually happened

J. Robert Oppenheimer was a brilliant scientist.

being so brilliant, he was able to conceive of, and help build, the greatest weapon known to mankind - the atomic bomb.

Oppenheimer, of course, didn't know the long term consequences of developing such a weapon - but he understood the sheer destructive potential of such a device.

Your question is: Was Oppenheimer acting ethically by assisting to develop the atomic bomb?

NOTE: In this hypothetical, history is at a crossroads. You don't know what will happen in the future - whether the device you created will be used to end life on earth or to usher in a new golden age.

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Fire already existed, and cavemen knew how to put out a fire before they learned how to light one. I'm not sure that humanity was capable of creating existential threats until the 20th century, unless we count industrial revolution tech that accelerated the greenhouse effect.

I'm not arguing "Produce nothing because we never know all the risks." I'm arguing to use basic common sense about predictable, obvious risks. Nuclear weapons do not become a good development because they might not work and they might produce something good instead. I'm not going to build a Kill Everyone Device on the offchance it just gives me a really good blowjob.

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How do you decide what an acceptable risk is? Was the pursuit of chemistry unethical because of the development of powerful explosives?

I suspect you are failing to ignore the knowledge you have of the future when considering a decision made in the past. Drawing a line at nukes rather than TNT really only makes sense if you know how nukes are going to play out.

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I don't want to derail the thread, but the "no first development" principle I'm suggesting could probably apply to most technologies that are explicitly weapons. It just matters more when it's a giant WMD that is specifically and explicitly designed to exterminate large civilian populations. I'm not going to :marseypearlclutch: when someone makes a slightly better gun.

It's true that peaceful and military technologies are interconnected, and that military technologies vary greatly in purpose and effect. There are no clean objective lines. Clearly there are a lot of things that could be individually discussed. But the fact that there's no perfectly rational place to draw the line does not absolve us of responsibility to draw lines (see also: the age of consent). In general, I think humanity should adopt a broad cultural principle of thinking about the long term and aggregate consequences of our actions. This goes deeper than any one issue or technology.

With regards to the nukes in particular, I think it's actually the nuke defenders who are using the meta knowledge that we weren't wiped out. Arms races are a predictable occurrence, WWII featured targeting civilians as a common strategy, and Opp would have known about the development of long range ballistic missiles. So a rational person could definitely have predicted a giant long-range nuclear standoff (with potential for massive destruction) as one major possibility, and a slow trend of many nuclear weapons uses against individual cities as another.

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I disagree with your conclusion on a personal level, but respect that it is logically consistent.

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I don't have enough spoons to read this shit

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