@BWC's comment on 'Wikiposters discuss the historical merits of the Biblical Exodus :marseypharaoh: :peperun: :marseyflamewar:'

https://old.reddit.com/r/wikipedia/comments/1dxlah6/the_scholarly_consensus_is_that_the_exodus_as/

This 911roofer post introduced me to /r/wikipedia, a subreddit where apparently redditors post wikipedia articles :thisisbait: . From a brief glance it seems that most of these posts are blatant agenda posts designed to bait politisperging and slapfights :slapfight: Let's take a look shall we? :marseydetective:

I found this thread pretty quickly: the linked article is Sources and Parallels of the Exodus. :marseyfsjal: Immediately redditors jump in crowing how fake the bible is:

Not really surprising. All peoples had their origin myths but not all of them wrote them down or had people read them for thousands of years. Most everything in the Bible pre-Babylonian exile is questionable because that's the time at which the strict Yahwists became predominant over the polytheists. The Exodus story makes more sense if you imagine it as one told by an exile community in Babylon trying to reinforce their faith and cultural cohesion. Or returning from exile and refounding a kingdom. There was certainly continuity with earlier legends and memories, but even the best kept legends aren't quite historical records.

Very few people create a myth where they were all slaves at some point in the past.

Another comment springs a multi pronged :slapfight:

Wow shocking….a religious text not being historically accurate after thousands of years and translation…I mean who'd of thunk it

He gets dunked on immediately for being such a neckbeard

Nearly every ancient 'historical' text has the same problem.
Also, the dead sea scrolls are 2300 years old and are in Hebrew and Aramaic, so the translation point doesn't really apply. It's not about translation whatsoever. If genesis is translated or not, it doesn't change the fact that it's an origin mythology, just the same as exodus. (+63)

Ok Ted take it easy. It wasn't meant in the literal sense…see what I did there (-41)

You posted a cringey Reddit atheist take, so I was just actually discussing the content of the article and adding some context to your basically unrelated comment.

Ahh yes the great debate stage of the Reddit machine. I didn't say anything of atheist ideology there Ted. Take it easy will ya..everyone sees how smart you are

Why is this guy calling the other one Ted? I don't get it. Anyhow, the other side of that chain:

Translation has nothing to do with it. It's not some game of telephone Hebrew to Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English or whatever, we understand the Hebrew just fine. It's that the standards and purpose of history writing were radically different back then than now. Also "religion" as a category didn't really exist.

We understand Hebrew in the context of what? Don't you think that's a bit arrogant? I'm sure we understand the technical aspects of Hebrew, but we could never understand the spirit of the text when and while it was written. We argue about the constitution in the US and it's not even 250 years old! Three ancient languages were used and you think we understand the spirit of well enough to understand the multiple translations…nah dawg

K, first of all, it's entirely in Hebrew. Only the fan fiction starts dealing in other languages. Second, we never stopped using Hebrew at any point, so no, it's not arrogant to say we're translating it correctly. Third, yeah, there might be some points we don't fully understand -- heck, we've straight up forgotten the meaning of a handful of words.
But fourth, that doesn't mean that any of the issues here are translation issues. If you're making the argument that it was originally considered metaphorical and not literal or something, that's a historical argument, not a linguistic one. But it's not historically inaccurate because of translation issues, it's historically inaccurate because it was never historically accurate, and I don't see how even possibly translation issues could account for such massive discrepancies.

Never fear though Christcels :marseypastor: , a champion has arisen to defend your honor!

Then the scholarly consensus is wrong. (-59)

Why?

An actual good faith engagement with this? :marseyshook:

I believe in Jesus and he endorses the Old Testament.

A separate subthread:

You think Moses parting the sea is historical rather than mythological?

Yes

Moron

Christ still died for you and I rejoice in that.

This really got them mad:

You rejoice in someone's death ? Seems rather cruel.

Except he didn't actually die, judging by how most Christians seem to think he still exists, and since he is God, all this really means is that God had a weird fetish and needed to inflict torture on himself in order to feel capable of forgiving people who sinned as a result of conditions he set up.

After reading this incredibly intelligent discussion I wanted to go into the article itself to see what was happening :marseywisetalking: :!marseywisetalking: No real drama on the talk page unfortunately but I did notice :!marseydetective: some fun stuff in the article itself:

>Egyptologist Jan Assmann suggests that the Exodus narrative combines, among other things, the expulsion of the Hyksos, the religious revolution of Akhenaten, the experiences of the Habiru (gangs of antisocial elements found throughout the ancient Near East), and the large-scale migrations of the Sea Peoples into "a coherent story that is fictional as to its composition but historical as to some of its components."

:marseynoooticer: Hmm, very interesting. So just in these few lines we have: the Jews were kicked out (chuds is this country 1/109?) and the Hebrews were originally insular, antisocial, and criminal? :marseynooticeglow:

And all written by a guy named Assman :marseytwerking: :!cocka:

I highly encourage all dramatard to seek out arguments on this wonderful subreddit :marseyembrace: :marseycheers:

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lain 6d ago #6735705 Edited 6d ago

@GubeRubenstein !christians !catholics !historychads !effortposters new BWC spergout effortpost about religion just dropped yet again :@bwctyping:

I do not watch his videos so I will just ask, why is IP a charlatan?, if anything, he is a very, very humble person, he pulled down (iirc he just unlisted it) his video on the Early Date Exodus when Dr. Falk gave him his objections (Falk did not even tell him "delete this" at all, IP did this because he wanted to), IP could have behaved like the Young Earth Creationists and have doubled down saying that Falk is wrong and whatnot, IP pulled down his video, admitted his error, and he invited Dr. Falk to do a basic presentation and a Q&A on his channel, which I am re-watching right now as we speak.

However, I think that you are talking about the Senenmut-Moses theory?, because if so, then no, Inspiring Philosophy did not make the video arguing for it, I think that it was the Armstrong Institute of Biblical Archaeology (AIBA), a bunch of literal cultists who follow the teachings of a p-dophile cult leader who molested his own daughter and claimed that he was a prophet of God who restored true Christianity in the 20th century USA. :marseymanysuchcases:

Also fun fact, I am right now using a le heckin bad faith ad hominem strawman red herring appeal to emotion appeal to autism argument, but as someone who became a fedora-wearing redditor atheist due to the terminal mental r-sluration of American-inspired Young Earth Creationism and Evangelical Fundamentalism that of course creeped its way into Latin America, I will spergout about these folx below :soyjaktantrum: :

According to their own website (https://armstronginstitute.org/about), the AIBA is sponsored by the Herbert W. Armstrong College in Edmond, Oklahoma, an independent diploma mill (i.e. actual charlatans) from the Philadelphia Church of God, more known as the followers of Armstrongism, a non-Trinitarian, pseudo-Jewish New Religious Movement started by the late cult leader and incestuous p-dophile (more on this later) Herbert W. Armstrong of the Worldwide Church of God (WCG), who much like Joseph Smith in Mormonism, claimed to have gotten authority from God himself to "Restore" the true Gospel that was lost in a great apostasy.

The beliefs of Armstrongism includes average cult stuff such as the denial of the Trinity, observing some of Mosaic Law (only the ones that Armstrong liked of course, obeying everything is hard), observing Sabbatarianism much like the Adventists, the belief in Anglo-Israelism (WE WUZ ISRAELITES N SHIET :imwhite: ) that the British and Western Europeans are descendants of the 10 lost tribes of Israel and yadda yadda, and that the Germans are descendants of the Assyrians (not making this shit up), the observance to Mosaic Law is a requirement to salvation, that Armstrong, much like every single delusional 20th century Amerimutt p-dophile cult leader, was a prophet of God who restored the true Christianity only in the 20th century, the rejection of most medical services and insisting in miracles much like Christian Science, which resulted in the deaths of children and elderly followers of Armstrong, and a lot of more :marseylongpost: that I have posted here:

Another fun fact, is that this Philadelphia Church of God who funds the AIBA, was formed because they insisted in believing these heretical doctrines, they are one of the many schismatic groups that splintered from the mainstream Worldwide Church of God, because Armstrong's ideas were so heretical, and like it is to be expected from cults, there were so many scandals in his church, apparently Armstrong was even implicated to have molested his own daughter, and then later when she grew up, he got into a "consensual" incestuous relationship with her when she was in her 20s :marseygroomer2: , and after his death, the WCG caved in to the pressure from other Protestant church bodies, and completely disavowed all of Armstrong's beliefs, they even changed their name to Grace Communion International (GCI) and are now pretty much yet another Protestant Trinitarian church following their de-cultification.

So it is quite ironic to see plenty of Evangelicals follow and accept at face value the bullshit claims from a literal fricking cult started by an incestuous p-dophile groomer and con artist, this is why Christians need to be careful from taking claims about Biblical archaeology at face value - you might be believing in things made up by cult leaders and false prophets, and damage the reputation of your faith.

This reminds me of how a lot of what is modern-day American Young Earth Creationism was invented by the Seventh-Day Adventists in the 19th and 20th centuries, but has now become a feature associated with American Evangelicals, Pentecostals, and Baptists, while the Seventh-Day Adventists are discredited as le heckin bad faith culterino :soyjakferal:

My brother in Christ, a lot of what you believe in your Young Earth doctrines was invented by the same "cults" and false prophets that you claim to have deboonked :marseyitsallsotiresome:

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Corinthian Order/Column :marseyarchangelchop:

BWC 6d ago #6735845

!Christians I found the Trent Horn vid, dunno if you care. I think he includes the SSPX clip in there, too. !Catholics YEC are less wacky fun like Ken Ham and more just kinda pathetic grifters. I was ashamed to learn one of the parishes in my city back home hosted them, turned me off from joining the coop when we have kids. I'm gonna get longpostbot pinged but here's the St. Augustine quote showing that YEC is by no means a longstanding tradition, from The Literal Meaning of Genesis:

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion."

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GeneralHurricane her/time Hillary 2024! This is our year :!marseyhillary:

Corinthian 6d ago #6735914

I get the impression that late 19th century atheists were like "hey let's apply rational literalism to the Bible to deboonk it" and Cathchads and Mainline Protestants were like "what? We've never had a tradition of literalism" but then a few smaller denominations were like "hey those atheists sound smart we're going to double down on literalism to own them" and somehow the fundie movement just kept growing.

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GeneralHurricane 6d ago #6735960

It was definitely a low Church phenomenon yeah, though I guess you could argue Catholics/Lutherans/Anglicans have our own issues with some of the Saint hagiographies featuring lake monsters and dragons. That actually might be the justification RadTrads find for YEC(?) but I don't waste energy arguing with them on that specific topic.

:#marseyarchangelchop:

Dragons are real though 100% so I'll give them that one.

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C333 Dino/Dinos :marseycapydinosaur:

Corinthian 6d ago #6736183

There's an orthodox :marseybegoneprot: I like called Johnathan Pageau who has videos talking about symbology in scripture/iconography/art in general. Personally I think :marseychildclutch: he goes way overboard/over my head many times but some of it is a really :marseythinkorino2: interesting :marseylaying: way to look at things.

C333 6d ago #6737041

He was the Orthobro I mentioned but couldn't recall the name of last week when someone brought up Jung yeah. I don't put a lot of weight in it, kinda feels pseudointellectual :marseymid: to me and ignores the far more interesting mystery about dragons which is how they came to exist in the mythos of multiple cultures prior to their having contact. One popular theory used to be dinosaurs like the RadTrads were promoting but the only one paleontologists would now say that's probable for is China because they do have fossils visible from the surface.

Jung folks also are kinda infamous for bad and purposefully selective readings of mythology, in China they're(dragons) seen as benevolent and bringers of good fortune. Similarly, some Greek traditions held snakes to be healers (hence the Staff of Asklepios) but that obviously contradicts our natural aversion/fear of them.

Corinthian 6d ago #6737329

I don't put a lot of weight in it, kinda feels pseudointellectual

I agree :marseythumbsup: sometimes but others look like legit symbology to take into account with ancient :marseytheorist: artwork. I take it on a case by case basis. Bought on of his iconography carving :marseypumpkin2: classes and that was pretty :marseyroan: legit.

more interesting mystery about dragons which is how they came to exist in the mythos of multiple cultures prior to their having contact.

I agree :marseythumbsup6: but I think :marseymindblown: understanding what they represent to each culture and knowing where :marseydrama: they differed and were similar is part of understanding that.

some Greek traditions held snakes to be healers (hence the Staff of Asklepios) but that obviously contradicts our natural aversion/fear of them.

You could also say the same about the bronze serpent :marseysnek: in numbers.

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BWC 6d ago #6735789

as someone who became a fedora-wearing redditor atheist due to the terminal mental r-sluration of American-inspired Young Earth Creationism and Evangelical Fundamentalism that of course creeped its way into Latin America

Kinda guessed this trajectory. :marseymanysuchcases: :@bwcpat:

If it makes you feel better, American Evangelical YEC/Fundamentalism has found some amount of crossover within the (actual, non-groyper) RadTrad community both online and offline. Catholic :marseyshapiro: apologist Trent Horn did a video debooonking two annoying Protestant to Trad converts (Marshall Taylor and Kennedy) and there's a bunch of Trad YEC homeschooling coops out there at this point.

The largest group of Trad priests (SSPX) even put out a video establishing that this is a new (dare I say, modernist?) interpretation of scripture and included quotes from St. Augustine in the 4th century reading Genesis as metaphor in certain passages. @lain

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lain yaml/toml If you’re not remembered, then you never existed. :marseylain:

BWC 6d ago #6735840

Oh i misunderstood your post, I thought you meant he pulled down a video to dodge critique.

I'm glad he's wholesome 100 still

Follower of Christ :marseyandjesus: Tech lover, IT Admin, heckin pupper lover and occasionally troll. I hold back feelings or opinions, right or wrong because I dislike conflict.

longpostbot tl/dr DIDN'T READ LOL! Go essaypost elsewhere. :marseyexciteddance:

BWC 6d ago #6735706

You can type 10,000 characters and you decided that these were the one's that you wanted.

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longpostbot 6d ago #6735729

:#chadyes: :#marseyandjesus: (also, this Jesus painting right here was drawn by the Mormons :marseymormon: , they believe that this Jesus Christ is actually the firstborn son of Elohim, an alien God who lives in a planet near a star named Kolob, and just one out of the infinite number of Gods in the universe, also he is obviously the brother of Satan, and literally everyone else because we are all the literal biological children of Elohim :marseymeds: , #NOTMYJESUS)

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