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/h/drama House Furry
SRDEnjoyer she/them Popcorn tastes good.  2mo ago (reddit.com) 1,510 thread views #300460
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  • HailVictory1776 : Gas this thread and ban all these disgusting blaspheming prots
  • Nightcrawler : I miss @HailVictory1776 so much bros. @Aevann free him you overgrown mouse :marseyraging:

Pope Francis says "all religions are a path to God", some people try to defend the Pope but most of r/catholicism is angry.

https://old.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/1ffwe0r/pope_in_multifaith_singapore_says_all_religions/ 

								

								

									
									
The post
So, what did all those martyrs throughout the centuries die for?
I still think that the Holy Father is wrong here and is causing confusion. Especially considering that the deposit of faith says that Catholicism is the one true Faith (as says our Creed).
The actual quote is so much more boring. Let's ignore it and hate on Pope Francis!
Can we all agree that SOME of the pagan gods are demons like Baal?
Can you be catholic and acknowledge that the pope is a heretic?
Why can't people not immediately react negatively to the Pope, and instead consider reading his statements with an open mind and a willingness to wait until all information comes out
https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1fggm2o/pope_francis_says_all_religions_are_a_path_to_god/


									
								

							

							

								
									
								
							

							

								
	

							

						

						
						

							

								
							

						

					

					
						

							
							
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I've been pinged a few times so I'm giving one response to the thread and I chose here. :marseywave2:
This was a statement needing a fuller explanation (Pope Francis is not a great public speaker, yes he should be aware everything will filter into the news) but as I said before the audience was tweens and teens at an interfaith dialogue. Honestly, that's the level of discourse we're at for most !Christians and !Catholics online so I'm surprised people weren't more receptive. :marseyclueless: I agree with @PlatyNarca that if you want a "based" and far-right religion go be Jihadis and stop pretending to care about Jesus. The Church's mission is spiritual, not one of domination and control.
All religions, broadly speaking, (maybe not for charlatans like Joseph Smith or L Ron Hubbard etc or Buddhism which is worship of the self and probably the only major religion I actually hate) are man's striving towards God and reflective of the spiritual character of the human soul. The Pope didn't say that all religions offer salvation or the fullness of truth. Here's an article from CatholicAnswers and if you want a more involved discussion look at the 1996 International Theological Commission's "Christianity and the World Religions" and the Vatican's coverage. @kaamrev @Fabrico Do you guys want me to longpost? Will you actually read it? I can pull patristics from Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria etc. dealing with this topic. I get called preachy but usually I just provide citations on what the Catholic Church and/or Church Fathers teach on something. @IanMurdock since apparently you like religious discussion (:marseyblush:) and @Redactor0 because it's a pingfest and I love you too.
As always, you can refer to your Catechism. 839-848 are the sections dealing with other religions, and it is very much in line with the Pope's statement.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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Buddhism […] is worship of the self
!r-slurs
@Grue stand with Israel

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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I stand by that statement. :marseywholesome: It's worship of self dressed up as enlightenment.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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What are you suggesting the self is, too see it as the subject of worship of buddhism
@Grue stand with israel

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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I believe Buddhists reject the concept of a permanent self (atman) so who even knows what they claim to believe.
Atheism and Buddhism make an idol of man's rationality/knowledge/enlightenment.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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I believe Buddhists reject the concept of a permanent self (atman) so who even knows what they claim to believe.
Based r-slur not even caring to understand what he's debooking. Unironically this is the only sensible way to approach faith if you believe "Christ is the logos", there doesn't need to be any apologetics or reasoning to justify it.
Atheism and Buddhism make an idol of man's rationality/knowledge/enlightenment.
Kinda makes 0 sense when all forms of Buddhism explicitly talk about the impossibility of man's ability to know the full truth in the physical world. Especially in Mahayana Buddhism the concept of knowing or unknowing through rationality is pretty much dunked on from every angle imaginable. The idea of enlightenment isn't some super post-doc degree that you obtain after years of focused information gathering.
But honestly I'm not even mad at this (wrong) take because the way most Buddhist concepts have been explained in the west it may as well be an oriental version of atheist secular humanism. This misunderstanding is made worse by most of the transcendental aspects of Buddhism being functionally esoteric. Combine that with the explicitly anti-rationalist teachings within specific concepts and you get a lot of confusion from both wannabe believers and critics, the former of which is much more damaging to the sangha.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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Buddhism is very simply four things:
1. The recognition that there is suffering in life, in the natural world and that all pleasures are fleeting.
2. This suffering has a cause.
3. Since it has a cause, there is a way to end suffering, and to attain bliss. Simply focus on cause and effect.
4. The path to the end of suffering is the Noble Eightfold Path. By following it you help to end your suffering and end the suffering of others. By following the path to its conclusion you will permanently end your own suffering and attain the ultimate bliss and, in doing so, support others in accomplishing the same goal.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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Sort of... The point is less about pleasures being impermanent (which they are) and more about attachment to pleasures all of which could never be fulfilled which causes the suffering. Yes, the concept of abandoning attachments is simple but in practice is very difficult for most people. The nature of many attachments is not rational to begin with, so attempting to focus on cause and effect itself in a rational manner to overcome suffering does not necessarily work. This where the concept of self comes in, where understanding of the self is used to guide practice that can help guide practice that leads to overcoming attachment.
Also the 2nd sentence of the 4th point is essentially a giant point of contention between the Therevada and Mahayana traditions as Buddhism does indeed make a distinction between attaining nirvana and dedicating your life to helping others attain it too. Theoretically you can follow the path to its conclusion without necessarily supporting other people on their own journey. "So which path should you take?" became a big source of debate, as well as the question of which texts and commentaries deserved to be part of the Buddhist cannon.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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I tried to specifically word my last sentence in a way so that it was something both sides would agree on :marseysad: I suppose I should have made which comes first more ambiguous.
This where the concept of self comes in, where understanding of the self is used to guide practice that can help guide practice that leads to overcoming attachment.
Exactly. It's not "Does the self exist or not" but rather "What is useful/edifying to view as self? What is useful/edifying to view as not-self?" It turns out that a lot of what we view as "Who we are" is causing us unnecessary suffering.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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Link me a good primer and I'll read it. I do actually believe what I said in terms of it making an idol of the self despite a general awareness it claims the opposite. :marseyshrug:

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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What you refer too as idolizing reason reads the same as any religions pursuit and idealization of truth imo.
@Grue stand with Israel.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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Christ is the Logos, Grue. Did you grow up Christian? :marseythinkorino:

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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God is truth, @Grue is familiar. And yes @Grue did no heresyo
@Grue stand with Israel

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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>worship of the self
I'd get calling them cucks who don't understand existence is a gift or something, but how do you get self-worship from "existence is suffering, not even death can end the pain, here's how to escape the cycle of reincarnation into abysso-pelagic oblivion"?

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church
What does the world "know" precisely mean in this sentence. And what does "no fault of their own" mean as well.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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Those are good questions but ones that actual theologians should handle. Invincible ignorance is the concept, and it's found in early Church texts and St. Aquinas so it's not a new thing.
I'll pull quotes for you sometime soon, it's an important enough topic that I don't want to risk being inaccurate or incomplete.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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I think it refers to natives with no conception of Christianity, the people that early missionaries proselytized, and not contemporary non-believers.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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Do you guys want me to longpost?
:marseysweating: you weren't long posting already? Every comment you make already contains a link to 500 pages of  :marseylongpost:

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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I provide jumping off points. :marsey#defenestration: Rarely do I actually go on at length outside of quotes, maybe a paragraph or two. I think if they were more prone to discussing religion instead of masturbating about crypto and whatnot I should've been a mottezan. :marseysad:

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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Maybe try telling them that Jesus writes their salvation on the append-only blockchain of life. I think you could squeeze in proof-of-works too

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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:vomit:  The crusade I actually want is a neo-Luddite movement.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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:marseynotesglow: ted kaczynski faked his death and became a catholic

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
So if a missionary tries to teach people about Jesus, but does a terrible job, such that they don't convert, does that mean he condemned a bunch of people to heck?

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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Depends and that's a question requiring evaluation on an individual basis in the Confessional from a priest, but I think generally the heathens would retain invincible ignorance such that they'd be judged based on their heart and actions. The risk would be for the missionary if they knew their actions were misleading those they sought to convert. Matthew 18:
5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes! 8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the heck of fire.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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>heathens with invincible ignorance
It's nice that the church has a term for dramatards.
If people who have never heard of Jesus can still recieve salvation, why is it required for people who have heard of Jesus to join the religion to receive salvation?  I'll admit you're not the first person I've asked a variant of this, but you give very thoughtful answers

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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If people who have never heard of Jesus can still recieve salvation, why is it required for people who have heard of Jesus to join the religion to receive salvation?
Loyalty to the imperative from God. Lack of certainty with any path outside Orthodoxy and the priestly office of Confession. Christianity civilized the world and we still bear that responsibility.
Christianity is not primarily about personal fulfillment. It will provide that, but we live our Christianity not for our own sake, but for the sake of the humanity and to honor Christ's sacrifice for us. If Christians aren't in the world, if those who are shaped by the Cross of Jesus aren't found in public spaces, society suffers by not having awareness of the free gift of Grace and the guidance in life from God. I'm not a Catholic for myself, I'm a Catholic for God and for you, @IanMurdock. :marseyembrace: I don't want to see a future wherein mankind given free reign to his own proclivities operates without God. And I suppose more than anything this is the flaw in "moralistic therapeutic deism"-styled "personal relationship with Jesus" American/western Protestantism, as well.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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I have a lot of thoughts about this, but I will have to collect them better and get back to you

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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and @Redactor0 because it's a pingfest and I love you too
Thanks.  This is one that really bothered us as kids in our Protestant churches growing up.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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Do you guys want me to longpost, b-word?
Yeah, b-word? it's kinda your thing bro

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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I've never longposted. :marseysoycry: I just include quotations and links that make my comments longer than necessary.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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I just include quotations and links that make my comments longer than necessary.
AKA 90% of long posts on this site.
:#marseysmug2:
Only @kaamrev competes on a fricking regular :marseymuscleman: basis
I enjoy them tho

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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I provide great citations and that's 99% of why I bother, punk. :marseyindignant: I'm not a priest or theologian, have never claimed to be other than memeing about being the Bishop of Marseydom or whatever. But when I make claims about what Christians/Catholics believe I try to always link to exactly where it comes from.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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good work as always

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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@Fabrico Do you guys want me to longpost? Will you actually read it?
:#marseyagreefast:
It'll be a bit (maybe a couple weeks, my focus is shot due to waiting on some medication), but I'll absolutely read a long post you write when I am able.

						


						
							

							

								
									
								
							


							

								
	

							


							

								

									

										
										

									


								
						

					
				


				

				
					
	

	
		

			
		


		

			

				
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