Controversial opinions on “Great Books” and authors :marseychudnotes:

!bookworms !classics

What are your hot takes on some of “The Great Books”, those considered part of the Western Canon. I'm not limiting it to the Enciclopedia Britannica volumes, you can talk about any of the renowned works on 19th and 20th century literature.

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Except LOTR is entertaining :#marseythegrey:

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I mean it is the foundational text for modern right-wing thought

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Man, it's just a fantasy novel not a political treatise. Tolkien was an Anglo-Saxon history neurodivergent and he wanted to create an epic out of old Germanic myths. Then it also deals with themes like friendship, the nature of good and evil, courage. I think the only political point in those novels is his critique of industrialization.

!bookworms

!neolibs what's our foundational novel?

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Why Nations Fail

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I've never read but the core thesis seems really contrived and ad-hoc.

>Latin America was roughly on par with Spain economically until the mid 1900s

>Different colonial nations have vastly different amounts of colonization (500 years for some parts of Morocco, 40 in others, 130 years for Algeria, 75 for Tunisia, 0-74 years for Egypt depending on definition, 11 years or so for Iraq, Turkey did the colonizing etc) but they always end up with similar problems to their neighbors. Did the mayos just destroy the good institutions in whole immediately when they show up???

>Colonialism looked a lot different between and within nations, often relying on existing institutions for support, but again the same issue shows up here and there

>The United States had absolutely incredibly corrupt institutions in the 1800s

I wonder how he accounts for these. There's probably a good amount of truth to it tho and it's better than Jared Diamonds "ummm..... Europe and North America look kind of, um, long on a map...while Africa is tall.....hmmmmm maybe this is it..."

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The book's admittedly simplistic core thesis is that there are essentially two types of institutions: inclusive and extractive. Inclusive institutions are things like democratic government, freedom of expression, and market based economies. The idea being that the more people you have voluntarily participating in the institution, the better off the society is. More buy in and reward, the better off that society is. Take the US, it has its problems, but the institutions there evolved there because they existed to an extent in Great Britain. They also didn't have a resource like gold or silver, or an easily enslaveable native population to do what the Spanish did. As for corruption in the US, it's by the expansion of the franchise, the growing middle classes, and America's favorite past time: litigation.

Extractive institutions are set up to extract resources from a population to enrich a few. These are things like totalitarian government, slavery, colonialism in the broad sense. To the point of South America, India, and Africa. Those colonies were never set up to be self governing, they were set up with the explicit intent of extracting resources. So when the Brits/French/Spanish left, there was a massive power vacuum. To say it's only Whitey's fault is r-slurred though. People are people, the Ottomans were a perfect example of that, the kingdoms in Africa were the same thing. During the slave trade the things the African kings wanted most were guns and gunpowder so they could kill their neighbors. It's why a dictatorship is stable for about 40 years, until the dictator dies.

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I was just being glib, I wasn't trying to say the idea was it's whitey's fault.

However I think Argentina/Venezuela/Chile for instance absolutely could have succeeded economically had they not been through several rslur moments of their own making in the 1900s

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Also it seems like you can pick and choose extractive vs inclusive systems however you want. If Europe failed and China didn't he could easily say something like "this isn't surprising at all! Europe had 1500 years of entrenched feudal aristocracy while China allowed anyone to join their civil service system for longer"

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tsmt

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Oh absolutely. It also fits the narrative of the book. Typically one extractive institution is replaced with another. In South America you have the caudillos constantly fighting one another in the 19th century. In the late 19th and 20th, you get revolution due to the extractive nature of the governments, business, the US under the Roosevelt Corollary. I also recommend the revolutions podcast. Listing to that also helps show how rare a successful, stable revolution is.

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:#marseywoah:

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Rude

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Their conclusions were extremely simplistic though, and their Roman Empire chapter was bad @johannesalthusius

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/17177007292345357.webp

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It's definitely not an end all be all, but does offer a pretty compelling case, certainly in the modern era. By and large, stable and vigorous institutions are absolutely necessary for a prosperous country. Or anything really.

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I read that book shortly before discovering /r/neoliberal (back when it was good) so it will always have a place in my heart.

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Seems like a motte and bailey kind of thing. I don't think people deny the importance of institutions but (I havent read it) taking a deterministic stance on them seems to go way too far

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Don't 8 the b8, m8s.

Tolkien scolded the Nazis for ruining Nordic mythology into their weird shit, and @Communist_spez knows this.

!anticommunists !grillers

Keep calm and grill on.

P.S. Tom Bombadil is an awful character, fight me.

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Even Tolkien thinks Tom Bombadil is a bad character.

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That's why he asked him not to be in his movies. Facts.

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Which Tolkien? Christopher?

JRR Tolkien died before any of the movies were made (including the 1977 animated film).

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I SAID FACTS

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Source?

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John Ronald Reuel Tolkien,[1] CBE,[2] FRSL, conhecido internacionalmente por J. R. R. Tolkien (Bloemfontein, 3 de janeiro de 1892 — Bournemouth, 2 de setembro de 1973)

Lol, born in South Africa @kaamrev

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Tom Bombadil is an awful character

Coming soon to streaming near u

:#marseyderp:

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The actual neoliberal foundational text would be some twink Keynes thing.

The foundational text of internet meme !neolibs would be Capital in the Twenty-First Century

Dune is good too. (It's about worms.)

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Capital in the Twenty-First Century

There's nothing neoliberal about that book. It's a turbo succ manifesto

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Ah, I see you're a fellow Dune enjoyer. :marseycheers:

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is prob why nations fail lets be honest

dune is about worms

i know what you are and i will find you on the sister site

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honestly that critique is probably the weakest part of the book, I try to forget about it :marseycringe:

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Sounds like facism for me

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Art of the deal

long live the ccp

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Hey sexy, why are you posting so quickly? 😊 You almost forgot to include long live the ccp in your comment 😈. Slowww down and remember to post long live the ccp next time 😉 if that doesn't make sense stop by sometime and we can talk about it for a while 🥵

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!anticommunists, look at how r-slurred our local leftoid is.

:marseyemojirofl:

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zoz

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zle

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zozzle

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