Context: Some black guy was going to be the first BIPOC to present a keynote at RustConf, but got downgraded to a regular talk because nerds were salty about some blog where he criticised Rust for some nerd shit. Obviously this was racism and not just neurodivergents being neurodivergents, because he's the only negro magical enough to care about Rust. Now there's a new wave of drama I can't be bothered to understand, go read it for yourself.
Rust: The wrong people are resigning
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Why is it that Rust and only Rust is so peculiarly loudly internecine? You hear about the odd bit of drama from, like, Ruby or JavaScript server, but literally the only things I know about Rust are 1) sAfEr tHaN cPp and 2) step one to learning the language is hating everyone involved.
Someone post a full rundown of the history of wtf any of this shit is plz
Don't forget to turn off signatures in settings!
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I don't know. Im a terrible programmer and never built anything non trivial in a real programming language.
But my take on Rust, is that its trying to apply bureaucracy to an already decent language. C isnt perfect and suffer from some historical quirks, but those things should be fixed.
What SHOULDNT be fixed imo is that programmers are kept safe from mistakes. Thats not something thats fixable. So the thesis of rust is missing the point entirely.
Man could frick up a brick.
Why are we trying to redesign the brick rather than educating people one how to use bricks? Theres nothing fundamentally wrong with the brick.
So the drama ensues because the problem thats trying to be solved is a human one and not a concrete one.
Whats the "best" way to stop me from sticking a match in my gas tank? There isnt one. And at the end of the day, if Im motivated, Ill get it in there. People somehow think that me having the ability to do that is a design fault, when really it's true freedom.
So people would rather have holy wars than fixing actual problems.
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Name some quirks of C
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C U P
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Neighbor that is TOO easy:
strict aliasing for pointers
signed overflow is UB
implicit integer casts that can cause UB
function definitions need a prototype if you want to use them before definition
null-terminated strings
whole standard lib is shit (both the api and the impls)
not portable at all
msvc only works for C98
anonymous structs types are not reflexive
variable length arrays
macro expansions doesn't allow for recursion
when using variadic functions, there is no indication of the amount of arguments
printf is a turing-complete interpreter (should be resolved and checked at comp-time)
I could go on forever but this is just of the top of my head.
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can disable with compiler flag
same
can turn this into a error
obv.
its v. elegant though. Also see below
so use a non standard lib
false
false
can disable
thank god
next you'll be complaining about manual memory management
compiler will warn
That's like one genuine issue on the list
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disabling strict aliasing kills basically any optimization; my problem is that restrict vs no restrict is too coarse grained for aliasing. I imagine being able to specify when variables/types can alias each other
agreed, non-standard
agreed, same criticism you need to make sure the compiler on every platform your shipping to supports these strags
I assume you mean this is an obvious deficiency. User experience should not be degraded so heavily for a marginal decrease in the complexity of implementing a compiler
if I cared about elegance, I would write haskell. Luckily we seem to be in agreement
only use libs to use mac and windows syscalls without future breakage
trying compiling a WIN32 program on mac and get back to me
they've announced it; I am doubtful they have implemented the full standard yet
can't assign a struct { field: int } x; to a struct { field: int } y
yeah thank god, people don't abuse macros without this feature, yes nobody writes 10 macros each of which eval a bit deeper to simulate recursion
pushing an extra int on a stack with the length is negligible. If your okay with using varargs and taking the performance hit of registers vs stack arguments presumably you are also okay with this
that's not the problem. The problem is that my fricking print function is a runtime interpreter for a shitty DSL
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Mommy is soooo proud of you, sweaty. Let's put this sperg out up on the fridge with all your other failures.
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good news
Does mingw not work on mac?
Separating your interface from your implementation is a useful thing to do imo. You can always generate headers from source files if its such a big deal
Not close enough to the machine to be truly beautiful
so use gcc
c punishes misuses with ugly code
Vaargs only hit the stack when they run out of registers. That's the whole point.
yet every other language has invented a variation on printf. including sepples.
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I'm too bored to keep going, but I tested the stdargs thing and it seems you were right, but the compiler can't inline varg functions. https://godbolt.org/z/cTo4e8vK7 My previous impression was that a void* was passed and then va_arg decremented it by sizeof(type).
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There is also a weird behaviour when you are using macros to define names. I don't remember the exact comportment but I remember going : "uh"
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Shut up, nerd.
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Kinda weird that case statements can go anywhere: https://www.onlinegdb.com/0m0gNUibf
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Only if you've never used labels and goto in C.
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Do you think any of the zoomers on here have ever programmed in C? It’s definitely weird for them.
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I am a zoomer and exclusively program at C when not at work. Take your bigotry elsewhere.
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Pointer types are semi obfuscated, you can't directly use them as a type (IE: It's
maam"void * one, * two" not "void* one, two"Text based macros are cringe and slow
The standard library is crap (although not as horrible as C++'s)
There's some more but that's the best off of the top of my head. There's also a whole mess involving linkers, including libraries and build systems but I feel that it's all a bit out of scope. Same with all the compiler specific crap like specifying function calling conventions and dealing with interrupts.
I love C but I wish there was a proper successor. Zig constantly gets in your way and it's no fun to program in.
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all of the non-prefix type syntax like this, arrays having the [] after the name, everything related to function pointers etc. is really stupid. It should be strictly [type name] [variable name].
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Humans are holy beings and computers are merely cowtools. Why wouldn’t I make my tool deal with mindless tasks and set my goals on higher purposes?
Follower of Christ IT Admin, heckin pupper lover and occasional troll. I hold back feelings and opinions, right or wrong because I dislike conflict.
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Rust let’s you make errors w/ memory allocation it just defaults to protection. If you do work on a large code base you can easily see the value.
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If you can turn it off then what's the point
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It's like working with typescript. It can ignore typing by specifying an any type, but type safety is still useful even if it can be disabled.
In rust everything that isn't memory safe is in an unsafe block. All the code not in an unsafe block is protected from buffer overflow and other memory errors by the borrow checker. This makes the code way easier to secure than in C and C++.
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Programming efficiency takes a nosedive as a result of this. Really this stuff is a brogrammer issue because neurodivergents are generally too meek for conflict.
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New young programmers have a hard time finding jobs vs. the tech bubble so they invent a language that boomers don't know so they can have one up on them.
Happens every generation
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It's a language entirely populated by young devs, since all the old blood is busy using cpp in industry. As such they're insane.
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Never underestimate the zealotry of fresh converts.
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Nah but Rust is special even within the category of "weird programming languages that people wank to". People get rabid about it. Haskell's in a similar situation in terms of not being mainstream and offering absurd safety guarantees but it doesn't attract anywhere near the same level of fanaticism, and at worst makes arch users angry when pandoc is forced by the arch repository to include a GB of dynamic libraries. Rust has been the programming language of choice for drama for a while now.
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rust is based on the idea that it’s impossible for humans to figure anything out from context and that if only everyone follows the rules 100% that everything will be fine. Literal neurodivergence.
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It's so fricking darning that the venn diagram of Rust programmers, neurodivergents, and nerdy guys clumsily LARPing as woman is basically a circle.
edit: Oh and furries too.
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Long story short:
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Scala is a train-infested drama mine too, but it's not a mainstream language and there's no hype around it anymore.
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I fricking hate scala
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ScalahateTestRepositoryBuilderSchema
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What do you think of Kotlin?
Follower of Christ IT Admin, heckin pupper lover and occasional troll. I hold back feelings and opinions, right or wrong because I dislike conflict.
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It's nice, lots of good ergonomics. I don't know if it'll gain traction cause a lot of those nice things are being added to java now so I feel like it's losing a bit of the edge it has over it
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I feel like Java will always be Java 8 from now on.
Follower of Christ IT Admin, heckin pupper lover and occasional troll. I hold back feelings and opinions, right or wrong because I dislike conflict.
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That's how I felt about 6. Compared to those days new shits being added to java at light speed now
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Are ppl bothering to use current versions though?
Follower of Christ IT Admin, heckin pupper lover and occasional troll. I hold back feelings and opinions, right or wrong because I dislike conflict.
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A lot of teams where I work are keeping up pretty well. We have our own datacenter, but I assume a lot of the hosted services like AWS are also able to serve up the latest versions as well
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I'm surprised that all the java trains don't use kotlin but "java but functional" is prime trainbrain.
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Rust doesn't have any downsides at runtime when compared with any other language, so it attracts absolutists that enjoy being right more than arguing.
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heck yeah brother
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I keep saying this hoping someone will prove me wrong
I don't want to learn rust but I'd need so much convincing to pick up C proficiency.
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Lol that's exactly why Rust is the only non GC language I've decided to commit to getting good at. I'm not neurodivergent enough in the right way to learn & write production C/C++ without it being exploited by a 15 year old Belarussian within a week.
But yea it's def limiting career-wise since lots of senior research positions require C++
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If you use only smart pointers, C++ essentially becomes a GC language
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