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EFFORTPOST :marseybigbrain: how turing was wrong: part 1

this is of course, waaay too fking technical for you to actually understand... so please close this post now and go back to eating that bag of dog cum u had saved up for later, i ain't judging!

but academia is waaay too stiff for me, i much prefer the flaccid dicks rdrama has to offer, so here goes:

in his paper "on computable numbers" turing spent the first half of the paper inventing the theory of modern computing, and proving that said machines he theorized can be described by a single finite length natural number, called it's description number. if u have no idea what that means, or even what binary machines code is... srsly i do recommend consulting that bag of dog semen for further info.

now, the fact these machines can be assigned a unique finite-length number, as each binary code for a machine is unique, has the effect that they as a set, can be bijected with, or assigned a one-to-one relationship to, the set of natural numbers. this has the important implication of being able to count them, meaning we can list then out one by one, in some order, without skipping over any. yes, yes, ur mum told u that u can do anything (u can't), but mathcels get very ornery and uptight about what it means to be able to successfully count a set of things, as not all sets are countable. for example u might think u can just count all real numbers, but actually ur too busy drinking dog sperm while cantor chuckles softly in background, so it won't ever happen.

lets move onto the title line: "computable number". the concept is simple, even for you: it's just a number which we can build a machine for, that can calculate any nth digit. for example: pi is a computable number because we can build a machine that can eventually calculate any nth digit of pi. now there are an infinite number of these, obv, and because these computable numbers can be associated with the machines that compute them, and machine are countable... these computable numbers are countable, as well. muster up all of whatever the fuck that is u call a brain, and don't forget it! (u will)

this brings us to the famous §8 where basically everyone thinks turing went on to prove some ground breaking, mind bending, result of the ages, but was actually just a series of fuckups that has largely contributed to the ungodly world of idiocracy we witness today, in which we confused our ignorance for knowledge and declared math as indefinitely incomplete. just like ur parents marriage.

the section more or less goes like:

well, if machines that compute numbers are countable, then the count can be tricked! i could do this by writing a machine that counts through them, and for each nth machine, calculates the nth digit, returns the inverse of that nth digit, and i can use this to build an inversed diagonal number β. because this β would contain a digit different from every other number on the list, it can't exist is the count!

but since that can't be possible, what's wrong here is counting them would be equivalent to solving the halting problem, and there is no known method of doing that, so obviously we can't acktually count them. so therefore the set of computable numbers stays countable, because they aren't able to be counted. furthermore, because this has the disadvantage that it may leave the reader with a feeling that "there must be something wrong", i will present the halting paradox that backs this up! fin. bow down and suck the dick of incompleteness u fools!

now what a fking mess: the set of computable numbers remains "countable", because we have no method to acktually count them!? i must say, i truly am left with the feeling that "there must be something wrong". i appreciate the effort for the modern theory of computing, turing, but ya shouda stopped there... and i don't want to get into the fact literally all of computer science from then until now just dogpiled ontop with biazzare classifications to justify this like "countable" vs "recursively enumerable" that basically does fuck all but jerk off about how right this!

so anyone else spot the error? no, u didn't, don't fking lie to me, u can't do it. ur a fucking idiot like everyone else. u actually drank all that dog cum, and moved onto raiding the cat litter. marsey is disappoint. :marseyunamused:

but mommy put ur dumbass through a bootcamp cause u failed out of collage, twice, and now u consider urself a "codecel". so let me translate the issue into a language that resembles the utter dogshit u barf up day after day:

inverse_diagonal = (n: number) -> {
  count = 0
  for (comptuable_number) in (enumerate.computable_numbers()) {
    if (count < n)
      count += 1
    else
      return computable_number(n) ? 0 : 1
  }
}

enumerate_diagonal = () -> {
  for (n = 0; true; n++) print inverse_diagonal(n);
}

running enumerate_diagonal is the machine turing claims can calculate β. the problem is it can't actually do that, and it can't do that regardless of whether this would solve the halting problem or not. that halting connection a totally an irrelevant thread turing had no business going down, because there is a more fundamental reason why this doesn't work...

still can't see? ok, i'll throw u a bone, it's a bit healthier than that cat shit u've been munching on. recall that we are counting through the computable numbers, "enumerate" being a fancy word for doing this, so the iterable enumerate.computable_numbers() must iterate over all computable numbers. if turing's claim is to be true, this must also include inverse_diagonal itself, what happens then?

.... no? still don't get it?? god i really am gunna spell out everything line by line, eh? fuck:

  • (1) inverse_diagonal is the machine that computes digits of β.

  • (2) at some input n, the variable comptuable_number will be the machine inverse_diagonal referring to itself, as if β is to be part of the set of computable numbers, then the machine that computes it will need to eventually be enumerated upon,

  • (3) at that point, inverse_diagonal will run the equivalent of inverse_diagonal(n) and get stuck in infinite recursion.

  • (4) therefore, you cannot prove the halting process contradictory through means of β, as β cannot give an inverse to it's own nth number, and therefore cannot be a proper inverse diagonal, regardless of any "hidden assumption" about solving the halting problem. that was totally necessary to bring up.

if u can't understand it now, u had no business reading this post in the first place, and just go jump off a building or something fun like that. ur daddy will be proud that u've learned to fly! think of it as "falling with style". :marseyplanecrash:

for that one slightly less of a retard still with me:

it's absolutely absurd turing didn't see this. the dude went on to proudly to use an infinite recursion issue in his paradox construction on the very next page, so why didn't he see that here? heck he even intuited a sense of wrongness about these initial thoughts on the matter, but i guess was so enamored by the halting problem he just didn't dig deep enough into β to recognize the wrongness inadvertently he went down. i can't explain that anymore than the idiots that just jumped off a building over an rdrama suggestion, that they voluntarily read :marseyshrug:

honestly, i accept the dude being fallible, i forgive u turing. u gave us the theory of modern computing, and that really was a fucking stroke of genius for the ages. this mistep is almost entirely not ur fault.

but what i really can't explain is how the flying fuck this went unnoticed for so long.

what the fuck have mathcels being doing?!

:marseypeanutbrain:

48
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y'all think Turing was a top or a bottom before his castration?

- WINNER!

!bets !fellas

(we use !coinflip after closing the bets to determine the winner)

closed

WINNER

https://rdrama.net/h/slackernews/post/299693/how-turing-was-wrong-part-1/7012199#context

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How do we find out?

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Check my edit above

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Yey! top won :capychad3#:

!mathematics I was a bit divided. On one hand Turing was a chad mathematician and therefore a Powerful TOP. On the other hand he was a computer nerd which has some bottom energy but the first prevailed.

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Coinflip: :heads:

i want to clarify heads was the first option above the other and the bottom option was the only option to be the up of the not.

anyways gonna save this edit to see if it affected the flip

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Rigged

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Rigged :pepereeeeee: choke to death on fermented pig semen, you vile c*nt

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Well, if you assume inverse_diagonal represents a computable number, then its program must terminate for all n. But then, as you show, we have infinite recursion in the exection of it, so it is not computable. Conversely, assume that infinite_diagonal is not in the set of computable numbers. Then the procedure you describe does terminate for all n, so it is computable. Sounds awfully similar to the halting problem, no? :marseysmughips:

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the resolution to this is similar to the resolution i've been working on for the halting paradox:

the computational context you run a calculation in is a "hidden assumption" that is actually an input to the calculation. meaning for enumerate.computable_numbers() to ensure it both remains consistent and computable, in a strict sense at least, a complete description of the computation it needs to stay consistent and computable with would need to be given as input. for a turing machine this means source code, memory access, and an instr pointer to the calling stack of functions.

this way it could detect what ur trying to do, feed u ur own bullshit back as the first enumeration, u'd infinite loop. maybe it could throw an exception INCOMPUTABLE if it's feeling real nice that day.

in practice we wouldn't do this cause we'd be working with enumerations that would be instead approximate to the oracle proper, under the assumption u aren't being a nuisance with the input trying compute what is actually incomputable, and it wouldn't do this check. the smartass that tries would be pat on the head, sent back to computability theory 101, prolly given a helmet, and a box of kleenex for his drool. gross...

nice try tho! i knew posting here could be useful. ur that one person still with me, the rest should've jumped off a building already. :marseycool:

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/16758166234569614.webp

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this way it could detect what ur trying to do, feed u ur own bullshit back as the first enumeration, u'd infinite loop. maybe it could throw an exception INCOMPUTABLE if it's feeling real nice that day.

First of all, you're literally trying to move the goalposts. inverse_diagonal is either in the list of computable functions or is not. If it's not, then enumerate.computable_numbers() lies. Your idea, that enumerate.computable_numbers() not just omits it, but goes into an infinite loop when it encounters something that contains its own source code, is doubly retarded, because it just means that it's 100% guaranteed to freeze after enumerating some finite number of functions.

Second, there is an interesting question there, can we in fact figure a useful definition for a function HALTS(f, s) -> {yes, no, fuck_off}? I don't know the answer, I thought about it for a couple of days on and off back then, the stuff I came up was either too weak (sure, static analyzers exist) or defeated by Rice's theorem.

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First of all, you're literally trying to move the goalposts

:marseydarkbrandon:

inverse_diagonal is either in the list of computable functions or is not

it's not. but u trying to run it, is the equivalent of u trying to put it in the list of computable functions.

i think the best the answer here is the enumerate.computable_numbers() will check the calling code to see if it's of the form of a computable number, and feeds back that program first before enumerating out anything else on the list. it won't generate the program itself, but u can try to run it if ur dumb.

u causing a loop here, in what u do with that return is (a) not the problem of enumerate and (b) perfectly in line with what should happen in theory. so garbage in => garbage out.

defeated by Rice's theorem

:marseyrofl:

can we in fact figure a useful definition for a function HALTS(f, s) -> {yes, no, fuck_off}

there's actually a big problem with this definition, one that the naive oracle proposed by turing suffers from as well: it's actually an nondeterminate set mapping.

nondeterminate_func = () -> {
  if (halts(nondeterminate_func))
    return
  else
    loop_forever();
}

if halts(nondeterminate_func) -> true then nondeterminate_func halts.

if halts(nondeterminate_func) -> false then nondeterminate_func runs forever...

so what set assignment is correct? both work?! what happens when nondeterminate_func is actually run?? whatever the fuck halts() feels like that day?

like fuck dude, the naive oracle has both undecidable inputs in some places, and nondeterminate inputs in others?!

and we've spent almost a 100 years going: yeah totally fking makes sense to form proofs about fully determinate state machines using function mappings that are both undecidable and freaking nondeterminate....

jesus h. christ i'm stuck on a god damn mad house of absolute clowns :marseyropewithme:

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Dude, you are r-slurred and high on meth or equivalent.

Do your homework. Until you come up with a proposed definition of "nondeterminate" (if that's what you meant) that is mogged by the Rice's theorem you have not been trying.

like frick dude, the oracle has both undecidable values in some places, and nondeterminate answer in others?!

That's your problem bro. You're plumbing the depths of what Anal Touring discovered, shake your head in disbelief, and somehow conclude that he was wrong to declare that HALTS is uncomputable.

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*nondeterministic

neither turing's halting oracles nor rice's generalized oracles are deterministic mappings regardless of u getting ur panties in a twist over decidability squabbling.

they weren't valid interfaces to be making conjectures, or theorems, or whatever the frick u call that garbage fallacy u put so much faith in... about deterministic finite-state machines.

u being a dribbling r-slur along with the entire rest of the mathematics community will never make these valid models of deterministic finite-state machines.

now where's ur darn helmet buddy, looks like ur about to trip and fall over a depth of ignorance i can't even begin to describe...

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That's the entire point of the proof. A program that calculates the inverse diagonal cannot exist because if it existed then it would have to also calculate the inverse result of itself, so it would have to calculate

inverse_diagonal(n) = !( inverse_diagonal(n) ) where n=position of the 'inverse_diagonal' program in the list

which is obviously impossible to solve.

Turing's proof is by contradiction and it starts with the assumption you somehow managed to find a program which successfully calculates this. His point was that if such program existed, it would also have to calculate this impossible equation. The only way out of this mess is that the program doesn't exist

The program you wrote, as you point out, fails to calculate that equation and dies at that point due to infinite recursion: so its not the right program to continue the proof, since the proof assumes you have a working program.

If you somehow managed to find this incredible program that can solve f(n) = !f(n) then you can continue the proof, which goes something like

  • f(n) = !f(n) is obviously false for all n, so the only way out is that this was never calculated in the program

  • if this was never calculated, then the program was not in this list

  • but we said this list contains ALL programs

  • so we got a contradiction here, this magic program that can solve inverse_diagonal(n) = !inverse_diagonal(n) doesn't exist

once you figure out this, you can do the last step:

  • but we know the inverse diagonal of this list REALLY exists, its just that the "calculator" needs to be outside of this list to calculate it

  • oh shit, we found something that programs cannot do

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Didn't read

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turing literally didn't realize the inverse diagonal β would hit infinite recursion. he thought if u could enumerate computable numbers, β would be computable:

The simplest and most direct proof of [no general halting process] is by showing that, if this general process exists, then there is a machine which computes β

he thought if the halting problem could be solved, allowing us to actually enumerate over all computable numbers, then β could be constructed as part of that enumeration.

this is clearly false. trying to add β to the list of computable numbers still wouldn't work even if the halting problem was solved.

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:awwsweet#: Aw sweet, whatever you say Rain Man

I read recently that Turing's last theoretical paper (unpublished) was basically saying you can't undelete Reddit comments because of API restrictions and information access anymore (and he also said something along the lines which basically proved your current thesis was wrong because you were a gay :marseytrain: or something pre-emptively, that frickin peepee.)

You should totally one up him again to and prove why he's wrong in a way that's accessible to the masses, that'll really show him and his simps

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it's not my job to unpack ur hatred, find a therapist.

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How is computer science as a field full of absolute r-slurs that think they know better than everyone else? Whats the deal with their massively inflated egos?

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Engineering also has this problem

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Are American engineers really like this? Or is it !engineering students?

I never see that attitude among engineers here, they typically stay in their realm of competency or expose some general knowledge in other area but never pretending to be expert and it tends to be more work related.

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There's a lot of engineers that think they can break physics or math or are climate experts or doctors, or just about anything. It doesn't help that it already attracts schizos and neurodivergents.

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There's 1000000% an arrogance issue with !engineering everybody :marseyhomestar: knows the fricking best way to do things because it's their way.

Why it works at least civil :marseysaluteconfederacy: wise is fricking because you have 2-5 of them arguing with each other from different :marseyvenn3: agencies about the fricking best way to do it so they have to prove their right :marseymoreyouknow: with calculations

Students are this fricking way because they're inexperienced and don't realize they're wrong. EI/EITs realize they're fricking :marseytom: r-slurred :marseyautism: because they work under :marseyhole: more experienced PEs. PEs from late 20-45 or 50 think :marseyphilosoraptor: they're hot shit because they got the fricking license. PEs after like 50 chill :marseysmokin: out generally because they have experienced being wrong :marseyxdoubt: enough :marseyitsallsotiresome:

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That type of professional arrogance (I know better than your team) yes, but the guys here are referring to engineers and CS pretending to be scientists and mathematicians, that's what I never encountered

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Im a scientist since i code on research projects for biology :marseysmug2:

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You're a microbiologist, so yeah, you're a scientist :marseyscientist: :marseychemist:

Kate Rubins, a NASA astronaut, is also a microbiologist and she's done DNA sequencing in microgravity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Rubins

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I'll say I'm a fricking scientist :marseyphrenology: because I have a fricking degree :marseygrad: in science :marseychimera: just to frick with my buddies/fiancé because I enjoy being an butt. Idk I haven't seen anything :marseycoleporter: like that in particular. Generally don't deal with scientists but there's a fricking huge respect :marseyfingergoodjob: for soil scientists from what I've seen.

I need to click context more often before :marseyskellington: I respond lol

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Ok but have you considered that you're all wrong and the best way to do things is my way?

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I have to sit through 3 different :marseyvenn3: hour long meetings today :marseyclueless: alone :marseyitsdangerous: and hear something :marseysmugface: close :marseynoyouzoom: to this

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I think it's because the standard class curriculum teaches a bunch of mathematical topics that are useful to know for coding (or for engineering, which has the same problem) but it rarely teaches the fundamentals because there's not enough time and the students need more Java OOP slop classes

As a math major it took like 3-4 classes of logic and real analysis to prove rigorously all the calculus ideas that my buddies in engineering were learning in one week of their math classes. It has to be like this so they can study mechanical engineering, or circuits, or all the other applied topics.

Now, the market needs more engineers and programmers than it needs fart huffing math majors, and the engineering and programming student I tutored would have killed themselves if they had to do 2 years of useless math classes. The current system works well enough, but I think it produces a lot of engineers and coders that think they are the next Isaac Newton when in fact they have a shaky understanding of the fundamentals

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right, so u too accept that we are not able to actually count, countable sets?

what's the point of studying anything if u accept something that fricking r-slurred.

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:marseyconfused: what is your definition of countable here?

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countable aka able-to-be-counted aka we can go: 0th computable number, 1st computable number, 2nd computable number, 3rd computable number, etc....

jeez, math bro went to collage just to ask stupid questions on wtf counting is ?!?!

proof academia is a waste of time

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I think I'm confused by the way you write :marseythinkorino:

>academia is a waste of time

:marseyagreesuperspeed:

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counting too hard for u, mathcel? :marseygigaretard:

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:marseyagreestill:

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might as well get it over with now, ur life will never amount to anything

:marseyropewithme:

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More comments

The current system works well enough, but I think it produces a lot of engineers and coders that think they are the next Isaac Newton when in fact they have a shaky understanding of the fundamentals

That's such a weird thing to do if they think that way, but I think it's because despite college Calculus and Differential Equations being just foundational math, it's still more math than >90% of the population learns so it may create this false impression of being way more knowledgeable than they actually are.

The past few weeks I've been learning that doing proofs is hard lmao, well it takes time and practice, so yeah I get why engineering courses jump straight to applications to make it fast paced.

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I could rant about universities for a while lol.

To give you another exemple a friend in physics showed me his first semester math exam while I was in my final year of math and the physics freshmen had like super tough complex analysis problems they were expected to solve through magical formulas.

>The past few weeks I've been learning that doing proofs is hard

It's hard but fun! I enjoyed seeing the discussion of Turing's proof in this thread

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I was in my final year of math and the physics freshmen had like super tough complex analysis problems they were expected to solve through magical formulas.

I think there's no easy way to make it better, while formula memorization is kind of a braindead way to learn it's basically the only way to have fast paced course, especially for physics as they have to learn so many concepts and apply them.

It's hard but fun! I enjoyed seeing the discussion of Turing's proof in this thread

It is! Though I feel like an r-slur struggling with basic set proofs lmao, maybe I'll fare better in a year or two :marseyspecial:

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Because im not smart enough to read turing and know how dna sequencing works :marseygigaretard:

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There's simply way too much knowledge out there so we gotta stick with the few ones we like or excel.

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Im reading the textbook for algorithm class and fully frick psuedo code is so hard to understand :marseygigaretard: it takes me like an hour of rereading to actually understand algorithm design. Like i understand it conceptually but the details of the actual algorithms are hard af to understand

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Don't feel bad, it took 200 IQ PhDs weeks to invent some of these.

Have you tried implementing some of these yourself? It helped me understand a few algorithms

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what's the deal with everyone else thinking that they're never absolutely fricked in the head?

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Unlike cstards everyone else's head isn't firmly lodged up their own butt so they can just tell

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i think it stems from the fact we so much more money,

that everyone else is coping with survival too much to be anything but completely r-slurred,

comparatively

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Maybe. Personally I've met several math people working in software and they were all effortlessly better than almost all their coworkers. Most smart people just don't care to make crud applications for their entire lives, even if the pay is slightly better.

I'm sure gpt5 will come around shortly and put most cs idiots out of work anyway

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given that u think gpt is about to do anything more than create jobs by pooping out unmaintainable crud that'll need to be wholly rebuilt,

u definitely aren't qualified to be making this claim:

they were all effortlessly better than almost all their coworkers

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pooping out unmaintainable crud

Sounds like a drop in replacement for cs people

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like i said, u definitely aren't qualified to be making such a claim

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Yeah sure. Give me a shout out in your fields medal acceptance speech btw!

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More comments

I see you didn't pass his test.

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/1706424927100577.webp

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Do you have a version of this that doesn't use patronizing reddit-speak?

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if u can't find that which has obviously already been posted... then ur obviously too r-slurred to be reading this post.

:marseymegaphone: OUT OUT OUT OUT

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lol is that C++? Wait are you binding that with Python?! Imagine using those over Rust. As a proud Rustacean and Ferris the Crab adorer, I regret to inform you that your taste in languages sucks. This is sad. You can do better. You know how easy package and dependancy management is with Cargo? Not to mention you don't even need a Makefile. It's great. Dynamically typed languages need to die. There's no other option. They just do. If you like dynamic typing, you need some help. Seriously. By using a dynamically typed and interpreted language (which means its @#*!&!@ slow!!!), you are committing genocide and harming the environment more than gas cars. Rust is fast and uses clean, renewable energy through the magic of being a language compiled with LLVM. Tired of memory bugs? You should be. Shame on you for still having them when Rust exists. Tired of being bad? Time to go to Rust. Tired of being slow because you're not smart and your friends laugh at you? Rust is quite speedy indeed (all thanks to the big brain of the compiler). Tired of not getting off the normal way? Match statements, loops, and the compiler for Rust give the best orgasms 10/10 (completely legit). Not to mention the superiority you get to feel when you show off your superior Rust code to your inferior "friends" still using some other language. Want to get rid of malware? Rust is safe, therefore malware is noware (also completely legit). You quite honestly will forget about any other language (including English because it's slow and unsafe). You even get to add the Rust Book and its brothers to your Bible collection alongside the Arch and Gentoo Wikis. All hail Rust. TempleOS pales in religious comparison to the faith of Rustaceans. Graydon Hoare is Jesus. Amen.

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but what i really can't explain is how the flying frick this went unnoticed for so long.

Ur r-slurred, that's how.

Assuming that halting problem is computable, your "inverse_diagonal" can't freeze, because it very obviously doesn't contain any parts that can freeze (I don't remember what terminology Turing used, it was the opposite of what is used currently since he was interested in computable numbers in particular, and those are that for which the generating TM never stops generating more digits, while if it does stop (by going into an infinite loop somewhere) then the number is uncomputable). Every function it checks is computable by assumption, and it only computes each to some finite digit n. Where is it supposed to freeze exactly?

Except if it enumerates _all_ computable numbers then at some point it has to encounter its own number and freeze. Thus, the contradiction, therefore halting problem is uncomputable. QED.

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therefore, you cannot prove the halting process contradictory through means of β, as β cannot give an inverse to it's own nth number

Did you try turning it off and on again?

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computers went wrong when he made them for c-niles. Turing neglected memory safety and rust programmers are still picking up the pieces to this day.

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memory safety is technically undecidable as well.

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Okay, but what does this actually mean or imply about computing? Why do we care that a pure theoretical number will make the theoretical machine that calculates it enter an infinite recursion loop?

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its only the difference between indefinitely leaving math wholly incomplete or not

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What does this mean, and why should I care?

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you? u don't need to care cause ur care impacts nothing of significance.

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Frick you, you sound like an r-slured BIPOC and you should die. Watch your butt cute twink, because one day I'm gonna plough it.

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woops, did i hit on some insecurity there? here's a rope to go along with that: :marseyropewithme:

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