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How do you address expecting marginalized groups โ€” trans people for example โ€” to sit down with people who advocate for their harm?

Daryl Davis has entered the chat.

Yeah, how many far right nationalists has he de-radicalised vs National-Blueberry51? Actually could we pull stats on how many far right nationalists National-Blueberry51 has created by being a smug and insufferable shit?

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They hate it when anyone brings up Davis because they have no way to respond. All they can do is go "NOOOOO THAT DOESNT COUNT"

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Ok, I'll bite. inb4 you screech about wordswordswords

To be clear, nobody thinks Daryl Davis has bad intents. But he does more harm than good. Let's look at a number of reasons why...

Daryl Davis isn't as effective at defrocking Klansmen as you think he is

Davis claims he defrocked 200 Klansmen. This has some truth to it but is misleading. Numerous individuals who left the Klan after conversations with Davis noted that they were already questioning their racist beliefs. Davis gave them a push over the edge - a good thing, for sure, but not remotely the revolutionary transformation that you're crediting him with.

In other instances, people who spoke to Davis left the Klan but remained active in racist politics. Or, in a few instances, Davis was just incorrect about them having left (whether he lied or was mistaken, I don't know). For example, Davis claimed that he convinced Richard Preston to leave, but Preston was arrested for firing a gun at Charlottesville. He has claimed that he "dismantled the entire KKK in Maryland," but the KKK is active in Maryland.

Side note: Davis posted Preston's bail. If Davis were an anti-incarceration activist, noting that the carcereal state targets certain groups, that would be praiseworthy. But I know of no examples of Davis posting the bail of any young black man targeted by the white supremacist police. Instead, he got an actively violent racist out of jail. That's who he chose to bail out and put back in society. This is what you call an anti-racist activist?

Which leads into the next point...

Davis looks at racism as an individual problem, not a systemic one

All the great civil rights activists understood that racism wasn't simply a matter of opinions amongst individuals, but structural power issues. To quote Stokely Carmichael:

โ€œIf a white man wants to lynch me, that's his problem. If he's got the power to lynch me, that's my problem. Racism is not a question of attitude; it's a question of power. Racism gets its power from capitalism. Thus, if you're anti-racist, whether you know it or not, you must be anti-capitalist. The power for racism, the power for sexism, comes from capitalism, not an attitude.โ€

There's nothing wrong with changing individual minds - it's a noble task - but it isn't a means of dismantling systems.

Punching racists treats fascism and racism as political, not interpersonal, problems, as it seeks to minimize the presence of racial politics in society by breaking up rallies and the like. Of course, it is not anti-capitalist activism in its entirety, but nobody claims it is. Real anti-racism requires we look at systemic racism, and neither Davis, nor you, have done this.

Besides ... 200 racists (if even that many) since 1983? Great, but hate group membership is skyrocketing, and to try to take these groups apart piece-by-piece, and not in more direct manners, is a waste of time and energy that people targeted by hate groups just can't afford. And that's especially problematic because...

Your reasoning puts the burden of anti-racism on the shoulders of its victims

Let's start by quoting Malcolm X:

"I donโ€™t favor violence. If we could bring about recognition and respect of our people by peaceful means, well and good. Everybody would like to reach his objectives peacefully. But Iโ€™m also a realist. The only people in this country who are asked to be nonviolent are black people."

You are asking people who literally just want to exist to bear the burden of changing society, and not the people who commit or advocate for atrocious acts. Why do you have this condescending pacifist tone towards us, and not the Nazis themselves?

Davis has been physically attacked more than once when interacting with Klansmen. He's willing to risk his physical safety, and good and well if he chooses to, but why should anyone have to? Why do we have to bear the violence of people who want to commit it against us just for existing, instead of defending ourselves? Why should we have to put ourselves in danger in the search for an end to that danger?

Further, Davis himself has noted that his privilege in other areas has aided in his task: He said, โ€œSure, youโ€™re in some uncomfortable environments with people who may not like you or share your views or who think youโ€™re inferior to them because of the color of your skin โ€” or that you have a smaller brain than they do, youโ€™re prone to crime and welfare and selling drugs. You name the stereotype, Iโ€™ve heard it. But I know who I am. I donโ€™t have a criminal record. Iโ€™ve never sold drugs. Iโ€™ve never been on welfare. I have more education than most of them put together.โ€

Does that mean that black folks who have criminal records, or are on welfare, cannot achieve his ends? Because to me, it sounds like Davis is only successful because he conforms to white expectations of black behavior. Forced assimilation is racist. Black people shouldn't have to meet white racist standards in order to have the right to exist. This, again, puts the burden on the oppressed: Sure, you can be accepted in our society; just behave like us!

In conclusion...

Davis is really just the Klan's token black friend. He enables racists to look reasonable and gaslight the rest of us by suggesting that maybe if we were nicer to the racists, they wouldn't be racists - even though never in history has a white supremacist uprising been quelled without violence. There's no appreciable evidence that he's meaningfully converted anyone, despite all his robes, and he has actively aided the well-being of those who would kill the rest of us. The Nazi Party had "honorary Aryans" - Jews who weren't so bad - and they used these individuals to legitimize their movement by suggesting that, hey, even Jews support the Nazis when those Jews are civilized enough! Davis fits that mold precisely. And by promoting him, you're promoting the idea that we have to risk our lives to serve your pacifist morals. Screw that.

TLDR: pacifism is a cuck mindset and is inapplicable towards extremist ideologies.

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Didn't read lol

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:gigachad2:

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That's great and all, but I asked for my burger without cheese.

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:marseywords2:

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It means it doesn't work on the large majority who's beliefs are solidified, r slur.

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:marseysleep: Who the frick let fartsniffing Bardfinn in here?


:marseyonacid: :marseyjam: :marseyonacid: :marseyjam:

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Alright I will bite back.

Your whole argument is based on the fact that Davis might not have been as effective as he claimed to be in which case he still radicalized multiple people which is an improvement.

The argument about he just pushed people over the edge is stupid because by the end of the day he was still the one who helped them make a final push.

As for saying helping individually isn't enough because it's a systemic issue, again it's not an either or issue. You can both help individuals and be against systemic issues. How much you wanna bet a multi pronged approach to solving issues is better than fixing all of them?

As for him helping bail out a guy out of incarceration. That's him willing to stand up for his beliefs and try to reach out to someone he thinks he can help and convince to do better. Maybe he is misguided but that ain't evil.

And your follow up mention of how come he has not done anything similar for some black kid just shows your own biases as if trying to fix up a white supremacist whom he had personal experience with rather than some black boy hes never even met makes him worse. Sounds kind of racist to be quite honest, this unwillingness on your end to recognize that a person you know with a different skin color could have a more intimate relation with you than some kid with the same skin tone you have never met.

So all in all your points are correct but you conclusions are shit. Have a good day.

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The point I'm trying to make is Davis' method doesn't work efficiently. Deplatforming and censoring these people is far more effective, especially an an increasingly online world. I'm a utilitarian, not an idealist with my head in the clouds. I would go for non-violence if possible, but in the fricked up world we live in it's not possible.

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Yeah that's why the incel movement and right wing movements have been gaining support over the past decade in all western nations where social control systems are implemented.

Lemme know when your deplatforming solution brings actual results because all I see from the past decade of efforts is an absolute shitshow.

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https://newswise.com/pdf_docs/162272968911915_deplatforming-websci2021.pdf

Our results show that users who move to Gab after a suspension tend to become more active and more toxic. At the same time, we find that the audience that these users can reach on the alternative platforms is much smaller than it used to be on Twitter.

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Your pulitzer's in the mail

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โ€œIf a white man wants to lynch me, that's his problem. If he's got the power to lynch me, that's my problem. Racism is not a question of attitude; it's a question of power. Racism gets its power from capitalism. Thus, if you're anti-racist, whether you know it or not, you must be anti-capitalist. The power for racism, the power for sexism, comes from capitalism, not an attitude.โ€

Is this a prime example of what they call "internalized sexism/racism"? Basically, the idea that capitalism inherently favors whites/men bakes in the assumption/realization that whites and men are simply better at earning money, right?

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Nobody's better at earning money. Hard work doesn't do shit. The point is that capitalism is built on selfishness and individualism, amplifying those aspects of human nature. This leads to tribalism and racism.

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Nobody's better at earning money.

poorcel cope

The point is that capitalism is built on selfishness and individualism, amplifying those aspects of human nature. This leads to tribalism and racism.

non sequitur, how do liberal virtues, especially individualism, lead to tribalism (i.e. group thinking)?

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poorcel cope

Earn a billion dollars then.

non sequitur, how do liberal virtues, especially individualism, lead to tribalism (i.e. group thinking)?

They lead to exclusionary us-vs-them thinking. "My group should be the dominant one in society and yours shouldn't."

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Earn a billion dollars then.

I should be the one saying that to you, since you seem to think that everybody should be capable of becoming a billionaire

Face it, I'm simply not smart or talented enough

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What? I'm saying in our world the only way to be a billionaire is to get lucky and have rich parents.

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Rehabilitation doesnโ€™t decriminalize felons. The only way to change their behavior is the electric chair.

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It's when the movement no longer fulfills their psychological and social and financial needs. When it no longer puts food on their table, when the others reject the person, or threaten them; When they no longer get a sense of purpose out of subjugating their personhood to the movement

Of course, the resident wife beater wouldn't know anything about that sort of situation. AHS is a completely different beast.

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And of course Barfy locks the thread when he gets owned.

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Then I bring up Pardeep Singh Kaleka, There are plenty of examples that empirically prove that their actually pouring more fuel on the fire and making everything worse for everyone because they won't swallow their out of control egos and talk to some who disagrees with them like their actually a person.

Self righteous hypocrites make me seethe like nothing else, I come here purely to see these fricking reeeetards get goofed on.

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What I wouldn't give for a liberal party without all the fricking liberals in it


![](/images/16674454055116708.webp)

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Darn Liberals, they ruined Liberalism!

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At least 1 today

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:marseyreich:

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:marseyreich:

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