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EFFORTPOST How The Unix Haters Won :marseypenguin: :marseykernelpanic: :!marseyraging:

Chances are if you are using a device in 2024 you have likely touched a Unix systems: your phone, your appliances, and web serves are all using UNIX or UNIX likes. Created in the mid 70s at Bell labs, primarily by Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie, Unix was a multi user multi tasking operating system built for mainframe computers. It was built on a philosophy of simplicity where a set of small programs which each did one thing well would be able to communicate together to accomplish more complex tasks.

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It was originally built just for software development but became more popular as it was licensed out to various universities, governments, and corporations (due to AT&Ts relationship with bell labs they could not sell UNIX directly but had to license it to other parties). Most famously was BSD by Berkley which lives on as the BSD line of OSes. One of these licenses was sold to Microsoft who then created Xenix, which was then sub licensed to other parties making it briefly the most popular UNIX version until it was oudated with UNIX 4 and 5 by AT&T and Sun.

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At the same time Microsoft had made a deal to provide a lighter OS for IBM's line of personal computers since they were to under powered for Unix so they hired Tim Paterson who had created 86-DOS for Seattle Computer Products Intel Machines to port the DOS system to IBM PCs, IBM PC DOS, and bought the DOS rights from him creating MS-DOS. An under powered 16 bit single tasking piece of shit. Microsoft positioned DOS as the companion to XENIX with the two being compatible and hoped to eventually make DOS identical to single user XENIX called XEDOS. Until Bell labs broke up and AT&T could just start straight up selling UNIX V which blew XENIX out of the water.

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With DOS being so shit MS began working with IBM on a new OS called O/S 2 to replace DOS. Eventually the culture clash got to be too much and the success of the DOS based Windows 3 convinced to continue with DOS while IBM kept OS/2. As powerful multi processing OSs which could multi task effectively became common competitors like Sun UNIX line, OS2, OpenVMS, and Next Step offered better multi processing more power and backwards DOS support.

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In this soup is where the Unix Haters mailing list emerged. It ran from around 1988 to 1993 and was a place for people to rant about UNIX. This was collected in the 1994 book The UNIX-HATERS Handbook. I think the motive of the Unix Haters becomes clear when you look at who wrote the intro for the book, Don Norman, a user experience engineer at Apple. The Unix Haters view Unix as a inhuman, inaccessible dinosaur which is used not because it is intuitive or user friendly but because it was first and now its everywhere. The book is mostly a polemic of rants about bad experiences and vivid metaphors:

Ken Thompson has an automobile which he helped design. Unlike most automobiles, it has neither speedometer, nor gas gauge, nor any of the other numerous idiot lights which plague the modern driver. Rather, if the driver makes a mistake, a giant “?” lights up in the center of the dashboard. “The experienced driver,” says Thompson, “will usually know what's wrong.”

:marseysteer:

In a previous job selling Lisp Machines, I was often asked about Unix. If the audience was not mixed gender, I would sometimes compare Unix to herpes—lots of people have it, nobody wants it, they got screwed when they got it, and if they could, they would get rid of it. There would be smiles, heads would nod, and that would usually end the discussion about Unix.

:marseyill:

I have a natural revulsion to any operating system that shows so little planning as to have to named all of its commands after digestive noises (awk, grep, fsck, nroff).

:marseypuke:

If the designers of X Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same principles—but you'd be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful feature, that.

:marseymariokart:

Q. Where did the names “C” and “C++” come from?

A. They were grades.

In between these metaphors are the same few points made over and over again: 1. Unix commands do not follow logical names for instance grep searches files, awk is a text replacement as is sed, cat concatenates files and/or displays constants to the command line, fsck checks file systems ect. This is a mostly pedantic argument since any experienced Unix user knows these by heart its also pointless in the internet age and only really applies to first time non programmers. 2. Pipes are too limited and difficult to use as they only go one way and transfer text as is the bash shell since allows for custom programs with unique syntax. The authors compare this to Macintosh which has independent programs with their own discreet files:

When was the last time your Unix workstation was as useful as a Macintosh? When was the last time it ran programs from different companies (or even different divisions of the same company) that could really communicate? If it's done so at all, it's because some Mac software vendor sweated blood porting its programs to Unix, and tried to make Unix look more like the Mac.

The fundamental difference between Unix and the Macintosh operating system is that Unix was designed to please programmers, whereas the Macwas designed to please users.

Unix was literally made for programmers and working Ill say in my own work bash scripting a nice quick and dirty automation tool.

3. RM is a powerful command which does not warn the user of its dangers as using it you can easily destroy a whole system if you make a type while far up the root:

I too have had a similar disaster using rm. Once I was removing a file system from my disk which was something like /usr/foo/bin. I was in /usr/foo and had removed several parts of the system by:

% rm -r ./etc

% rm -r ./adm

…and so on. But when it came time to do ./bin, I missed the period. System didn't like that too much.

Unix wasn't designed to live after the mortal blow of losing its /bin directory. An intelligent operating system would have given the user a chance to recover (or at least confirm whether he really wanted to render the operating system inoperable).

To this I say skill issue plain and simple. Reminds me of a student in another lab whose PI has a strict "no rm" rule for students working on the supercomputer :marseysmug2:.

4. Bad documentation. This mostly came from the At&T commericalization. Pretty much no company wants documentation out there for their commercial OS otherwise you can easily leave the plantation I mean can anyone show me the windows NT 10 kernel documentation?

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Beyond that many complaints here are outdated. Whining about usenet speeds? Whining about C++ being as inefficient as COBOL? Whining about x windows being too slow? Whining about Sendmail? Even worse a few years after this book the 1991 Unix like kernal Linux by Linus Torvalds would start to gain massive popularity outliving Unix itself. Eventually Linux would get desktop enviroments which would have options like a trash can for restoring data and Mac like programs while offering a unix like command line system.

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The Unix haters hand book is at the end of the day a relic of its time a time when raw At&T commercial UNIX was still a major player and before the GNU/Linux FOSS revolution really took off while some of their complaints remain unaddressed many did and many others just come off as the rantings of fresh faced college noobs or normies who are angry their high end academic programming rig isnt built for r-slurs like 1993 Macintosh (the time when Apple was doing so well they nearly went bankrupt and had to but Next Step in 1996 so Steve Jobs could raid them and replace Mac OS with a good OS like NextStep/OSX).

Still the Unix haters aren't done yet for I haven't mentioned the one true Unix hater. Where we left off in history Microsoft needed a proper 32 bit OS with great multi tasking support so they did what they did best and just stole quality by poaching Dave Cutler from Digital Equipment Corporation who had just made the 32 bit operating system openVMS to make Windows NT.

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So Windows NT 3.1 launched a year after DOS 3.1 looking mostly the same but running a heck of a lot nicer since its proper 32 bit with a new NTFS file system and not a 16 bit piece of shit doing programming frickery

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When the magic of the windows 9x series happened, remember MS was wringing over 5 years out of a really shitty OS they bought in 1980 when the competition ran so much bettter, NT entered version 4.0 before becoming windows 2000.

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After the disaster that was Windows ME on DOS, DOS was fully phased out for the NT kernal with Windows vista and has maintained its status was the Windows kernal up till Windows NT Kernal 10.0 which powers windows 10 and 11.

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What does this have to do with Unix Haters? Well Dave Cutler is the ultimate UNIX hater!!

Ballmer reassured him. The bright side was finally --finally-- NT had a large target market. Some portion of Windows owners would adopt NT. This put Cutler in a much better position to define the next generation of PC software, placing him at the apex of technical power in the computer industry. Besides, NT would still meet the goals closest to Cutler's heart: portability, reliability and the ability to provide an alternative to Unix, the splintered high-end operating program.

This last goal was crucial to Cutler. "Unix is like Cutler's lifelong foe," said one team member who'd worked with Cutler for nearly two decades. "It's like his Moriarty [Sherlock Holmes's nemesis]. He thinks Unix is a junk operating program designed by a committee of Ph.D.s. There's never been one mind behind the whole thing, and it shows. So he's always been out to get Unix. But this is the first time he's had the chance."

  • according to the book Show-stopper! : the breakneck race to create Windows NT and the next generation at Microsoft which has never been confirmed by Cutler himself

Still its fun to imagine Cutler slaving away in the Azure and Xbox dungeons content knowing he has stopped the year of the linux Unix desktop ... forever.

Or until Windows 13 ships with the linux kernal running KDE plasma skinned to look like Windows 7 and windows software under compatibility layers.

Or maybe Microsoft, Google, and IBM's funding of GNOME will pay off and once KDE and XFCE are killed linux users will be forced to choose between the ugliest barf tier anti productivity desktop ever or run back into the loving arms of whatever OSX/KDE adware hybrid UI Windows 13 is running. :marseyshrug:

!codecels MAJOR OS DRAMA !cuteandvalid New effort post !zoomers look old OSs all zoomers love neurodivergent old OSs its why we invent slop like haikuOS

!jannies this is an effortpost I just couldnt mark it cause the effortpost tick box doesnt work with drafting and I have so many images I need to draft or furryfox crashes :!marseyfurry: :!marseyfirefox:

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Quality post :marsey:

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I didn't understand anything in the post other than there was a race between IBM Apple and Microsoft (which I already knew)

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/1717561735558913.webp

the face of a man who has crushed all his foes

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/17175836314303591.webp

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"Stupid BSD running gaystation is gonna get owned by our Windows NT Sexbox cloud system as we have bought every game company ever and they no can longer make any games"

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using analog input on flat panel

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>Or until Windows 13 ships with the linux kernal running KDE plasma skinned to look like Windows 7 and windows software under compatibility layers.

Decidedly unlikely. Linux users like to smugpost about having "a proper linker" but their shared library system is straight from Windows 3.1 with a big communial "dump" folder where shit gets overwritten all the time and becomes incompatible. :marseyemojirofl:

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where shit gets overwritten all the time and becomes incompatible

Are you using ./install.sh to add things to your system in $currentyear?

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>Rather, if the driver makes a mistake, a giant “?” lights up in the center of the dashboard.

This apparently is the winning approach for software because everything does it now.

>:( something went wrong uwu

>:/ the website is broken

Ironically linux shit is the only thing that will give you a proper technobabble filled error message :marseylongpost:, at least if the GNOME people didn't get to it.

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I despise this. Call me a BIPOC if you have to and have the error log be an unreadable dump converted to hex, anything is better than "tee-hee technology did an oopsie sowwy :3"

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/17176788319923236.webp

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Tbf book was written only a few years after the first linux kernal so it was more about commercial at&t linux still i think the lack of proper error messaging and documentation is a commercialization. Why be able to tinker your own machine when you can be slave cattle on the corporate plantation? To me GNOME has the same anti user attitude as big tech and its funded by google ibm rhel ect (even ms has thrown money at it). Its all about forcing the user to do what you want rather then helping the user. Anytime i see human or humane design it makes me hurl (idk if gnome says that but its hipster reddit userbase does) since it signals the UI is not made for actual software users but the theoretical NWO cattle normie who has apparently never seen any UI before and would get confused if it had too much info

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Using Fusion 360 and it's like

⚠️ Could not complete fillet

Could not complete fillet

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I used Linux pretty much exclusively now but I actually do have fond memories of some earlier windows versions. For a time even windows vista seemed awesome. It's probably just me longing for a simpler version of computers. Either way these days I even prefer mac to windows, the lack of a POSIX compliant shell build in is a deal breaker.


:#marseyviewerstaretalking:

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Windows has jankily tried to add bash like scripting to powershell and it sucks they dont have a proper grep or sed clone built in. You are better off just using Windows Subsystem Linux which is very good now actually. You can even transfer data from windows and the subsystem in the file manager. I skin kde plasma to look like old windows versions lol i think they all look fun they also had proper start menus.

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WSL was half decent last time I used it, not as good as actual Linux but better than nothing for sure. The interoperability of the two systems caused annoying issues last time I used it. KDE is quite nice, used to just use gnome but my latest build I went with KDE and it's been a huge improvement, I just wish they stopped naming all their apps starting with K even where it doesn't make sense


:#marseyviewerstaretalking:

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select-string isn't bad. Plus ps uses objects instead of text everything, which has a bit of a learning curve, but makes it easier to use shell as an actual (legible and editable) language

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select-string is awful it adds metadata to every output which cant be stripped making it so you cant pipe it and have to manually edit the output file. The replace command line "tool" in powershell just calls notepad to do find and replace and since notepad is shit it crashes when you are dealing with large (2 gig plus) text files. There is a reason everyone just uses third party cowtools like FART or the grep port lmao.

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Skill issue tbh.

(select-string pattern path).matches.value or select-string pattern path | select {$_.Matches}

To be fair though, it's more verbose and the Matches is weird. There are other shells trying to reach more of a happy medium between plain text (sucks if your language isn't mostly in ascii) and smalltalk

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Plain text is more useful for data analysis there is a reason supercomputers run linux

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Plain text is more useful for data analysis

:marseysurejan: If your data is small and the work exploratory. For bigger datasets, formats like Parquet or sqlite are usually better if flat files are needed. Plus, there are many command line database cowtools that let you take advantage of a full language instead of just grep and awk.

is a reason supercomputers run linux

Unrelated to the first point. Linux has many other reasons for being superior on supercomupters that don't have to do using plain text data. Do you really thing they're just running shell scripts on those? From the little bit of simulation work I've done and heard about, it's probably a combination of C (or Rust or equivalent :marseyfemboy:) with some cuda and maybe bindings to a higher level language for glue.

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If you are dealing with genetic data its plain text :marseysmug2: which you filter using BASH to put into more complex programs. And yes I actually do use super computers when you are working with gigabyte plus fastq files being able to quickly and easily massage them before they go to other parts of the input pipeline is very useful :marseyshrug:

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Fair for that use case then

put into more complex programs

This is my point. :marseysmughips: Plaintext can be nice and shell is useful, but dedicated cowtools (usually not backed by plaintext) are nicer under heavier and more complex loads

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That's actually a good idea, I'm forced to use windows at work but they give us the Linux subsystem

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They've leaned hard into WSL support these days.

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It's fine but it's not enough, I want my config files and systemd to control my system


:#marseyviewerstaretalking:

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if unix has a million haters, then i am one of them. if it has ten haters, then i am one of them. if it has only one hater then that is me. if unix has no haters, then that means i am no longer on earth. if the world loves unix, then i am against the world

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/17175629964234383.webp

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!effortposters Great effortpost about the most based programmer to ever exist: Dave Cutler.

Oh, also about other Unix stuff as well.

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/1706424927100577.webp

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I have to admit that even though I can kind of see the utility behind bash scripting, isn't it a lot simpler to just use python for whatever you'd use bash?

Most Linux distros usually come with python preinstalled so it's not like you'd have to set it up on each machine individually either.

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Python is a pretty shit programming language but that aside the power of bash is piping programs into each other and not really the language itself. It's more for connecting my coreutils together than actually doing anything on its own


:#marseyviewerstaretalking:

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Python is objectively not a shit programming language for the sole fact that there's an endless amount of libraries and cowtools for you to do the needful with. Therefore it's up there with the other greatest language of all time, C++.

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You could also say the same thing about JavaScript, maybe you'd agree that it's also one of the greats but imo they're both poorly designed


:#marseyviewerstaretalking:

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But JavaScript IS the greatest programming language in the world, superceded only by Haskell.

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Bash is way faster for smaller stuff and can be done as a "one-liner". If I have say 300 files number sequentially as is common in bioproject data and I need to run a command on it one at a time in a single line on the CLI I can make a for loop which automates that. To do it in python it would take a few minutes to create a new .py and write out the sub process calls.

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no

python frickery is dependent on which version you have installed (if any) and which dependencies are installed, weird virtual environment rules, etc

bash scripts will work on literally any computer with bash installed

i say this as someone who has had to deal with bash scripts as a job, they are so much easier to manage than random python scripts it's unreal

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You can also run bash as a single line directly from the CLI its very quick once you get the hang of it

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that's basically the crux of it

bash scripts just work no matter what

python scripts will find any excuse to fail for whatever reason

if you can do something in bash please do so because it's so much easier to maintain

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God help you too if you wind up in pip dependency heck.

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god help you if you run conda and Fedora always gets confused on if it should use the system installed python 12.2 or the conda installed python 11.7

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actually, sweaty. They solved that with pipx. :marseyakshually:

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What the frick is even the point of conda, people use it at my job and it always seems to frick things up. Just use pip, that's all conda is really doing anyways.

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Conda also supports r packages and installed command line software. It also has a deeper dependency i have to use both depending on which one is kore temperamental that day.

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It's useful if you're trying to install Python libraries with C/Fortran/etc. extensions on a computer you don't have sudo permissions on. That's not to say it isn't horrible (it is), though the Python packaging ecosystem is hilariously fragmented and dysfunctional anyways.

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Just use venv though? I've definitely installed packages with compiled C components before via pip, calls out to the compiler and everything.

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Yeah but bash looks all fricked up and neurodivergent

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If you think bash looks all fricked up you should see perl.

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If you think bash looks normal you should see elixir

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and python uses white space for codeblocks which looks nasty

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This is true for literally all codeshit (case in point: this whole thread)

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Bash scripts are good for automating shit you were doing in the terminal already.

Pipes, redirections, and substitutions can be handy and it looks like trying to do anything like that is clumsy in Python

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Python-cels out out out

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I'm literally afraid of any language more complicated than Fish.

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But fish is also all fricked up

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history like this makes me anxious about death

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If O/S 2 cant survive what does that mean about me and you :marseyscream:

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>he doesn't know about ArcaOS

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oh yeah i should resub

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I wanted to play with it but it costs 65$

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the subscription also buys you access to their RPM repo with ported software and shit

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I am fucked I thought for decades that grep meant "GNU Regular Expression Parser" with the name becoming standard enough that even non-GNU implementations used it, but that was completely wrong, it's a goddamn ed command.

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/17176219614152591.webp

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Still its fun to imagine Cutler slaving away in the Azure and Xbox dungeons content knowing he has stopped the year of the linux Unix desktop ... forever.

The digital age really amplified the power of nerd grudges over the dorkiest shit imaginable, didn't it?

The most common commercial operating system for decades is what it is because one strag in industry really hated what some PhDs came up with, lmao.

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Tbf i cant dave cutler himself confirming or denying if his life long enemy is unix

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GNU: GNUs not UNIX, neither is GNU/Linux. educate yourself!

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When did i say it was? Linux is just the most popular unix successor is anyone using system V at&t unix anymore?

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is anyone using system V at&t unix anymore?

IBM AIX, HP-UX, and Solaris are still around, so technically yes

Edit: Can't forget Illumos, the open source OpenSolaris fork and the semi-active SGI IRIX enthusiast community

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“Still around” for the purposes of internet debates only.

I don't believe people are willingly using any of those OSes except like Bryan Cantrill.


Follower of Christ :marseyandjesus: Tech lover, IT Admin, heckin pupper lover and occasionally troll. I hold back feelings or opinions, right or wrong because I dislike conflict.

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I'm sending stallman to your house as we speak.

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Lol crybabies.

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Great post!

I think the UNIX haters “won” in the sense most of the UNIX-y systems deployed today (Android, macOS, iOS, embedded systems) don't really use the UNIX programming environment.

Android is mostly Java/Kotlin with its own bespoke APIs and iOS/macOS are in their own bubble of Objective-C and Swift APIs.

No one is passing text as their data format or using POSIX C APIs directly.

In a way the simplicity that help it achieve dominance also laid the groundwork for it to be bulldozed over.


Follower of Christ :marseyandjesus: Tech lover, IT Admin, heckin pupper lover and occasionally troll. I hold back feelings or opinions, right or wrong because I dislike conflict.

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Originally the intro was more detailed on differences between unix and unix like but that all got lost and i didnt feel like rewriting it :marseytears:

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i got to the part where they were making puns about c and c++

can i get a tldr of everything after that?

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The guy who made windows nt (the 32 bit version of windows which has serves as the basis for everything vista and beyond) really hated unix so the fact windows dominates the DE space means the unix haters won

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thanks nerd

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This thread smells of night crew tech support sexy Indian dudes in Bombay

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Important history everyone should know!

I used OS/2 briefly when you could run Windows 3.1 inside it, it was shit

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How do you manage to write all that and not mention that Windows XP was the first version of the NT codebase intended for home users? DOS was dead before Vista

I still hate Linux. Tried setting up Octoprint following step by step guides and it was so convoluted. Owning a 3d owner is all about being too cheap to buy stuff, why is everyone buying an $80 Raspberry Pi instead of using one of their old computers or laptops sitting around?

I still haven't figured out how to get Octoprint to start on boot. I follow the command, there's no errors, but nothing happens. In any current-year OS you drop it in the Startup folder.

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Thats a typo I meant XP lol. At this point its kore convenient to keep a windows external ssd for like the few programs which need it then put up with "erm your pc is unsafe please switch your browser back to edge :marseynerd:"

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:marseyseethe: It was absolutely a typo, that's why I included screenshots of Vista

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I was literally having a brain fart and messed up the order of xp and vista i had the diagram pulled up and everything

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17176825831284342.webp

:marseycry: :marseycry: :marseysulk: :marseycrying:

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Unnecessary and uncalled for ping :marseydownvotemad: two more strikes and you're getting blocked + megadownmarseyd buddy, don't test your luck

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