CdaceDino/Dinos
i fricking love Parasaurolophus so much
Nightcrawler 3mo ago#6941308
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Interesting talk in the fricking video. Didn't watch the fricking QA afterwards. I think the fricking main issue I have with it is fricking that it doesn't come from trying to understand the fricking truth but how best to manipulate the fricking doctrines and beliefs to better suit western morals (aka Christian and "post Christian" morals)
You have to disregard their own writings / beliefs and twist them to suit our own. While this might be the fricking best path forward for peace I think it ignores the fricking fundamental problem of what is the fricking truth of their beliefs.
He pretends that much of the fricking issue with modern Islam comes from the fricking wests influences on modern Islam but this is a fricking fundamental flawed belief in my opinion. I can promise the fricking west has done little to influence Afghani tribal elders and villages. I think they take their holy book at its word like many religions have throughout history. In addition you can see historically many actions of believers of the fricking religion being unchanged throughout the fricking ages.
He might be right on the fricking best path towards coexistence with Islam but ignores the fricking fundamental issue of why people believe their religion (like many atheists). religious adherents don't believe it because it convenient for interacting with the fricking world around them; they believe it because the fricking think it's true.
TLDR very interesting talk but I think many of the fricking underlying premises behind it are fricking flawed
NightcrawlerX/Man
Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.
Cdace 3mo ago#6946360
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I think I might disagree somewhat but don't know enough about Islam to argue it intelligently. There's a difference between lying and framing things in such a way as to be a more impactful ambassador. Another one of the points made in the talk was that the application of Western great man-ism and historiography has contributed to the rise of radicalized Islam being viewed as the "authentic" version.
IDK give me some type of article to respond to and I'll keep it going.
CdaceDino/Dinos
i fricking love Parasaurolophus so much
Nightcrawler 3mo ago#6946456
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I appreciate you engaging with my autism
Western great man-ism
I think this might be the fricking most ridiculous claim imo. Great man-ism has been a fricking feature of most dictatorships/kingships throughout history.
I despise the fricking basically white (western) mans burden narrative that has infected western scholars. "They only act this way because of us and our influence" is fricking such an anti-intelectual statement. It infantilizes and denies the fricking agency of any culture outside the fricking "west" imo
contributed to the fricking rise of radicalized Islam being viewed as the fricking "authentic" version.
Idk how it could not be seen as authentic tbh. I hope that view changes but it does seem to be the fricking dominant form throughout history. You could go back before the fricking World Wars to the fricking ottomans to see that it's the fricking religion of war and conquest
In fact funnily enough the fricking first war America fought after independence was fricking against Muslim pirates in North Africa
Pope Pius VII, too, praised the fricking Americans and their leader, Captain Stephen Decatur, stating, "The United States, though in their infancy, had done more to humble and humiliate the fricking anti-Christian barbarians on the fricking African coast in one night than all the fricking European states had done for a fricking long period of time."
Abu Bakr did not live long after Muhammad, and the fricking conquest movement did not stop with his leadership, nor with uniting just the fricking Arab tribes under the fricking banner of Islam. The fricking new state's expansionist desire seems to have existed from the fricking outset, and the fricking Arab-Muslim armies turned their attention northward to the fricking old empires of Sasanian Persia and Byzantium. They were fricking likely inspired by the fricking richness of these lands, where they knew resources were fricking more plentiful and luxury trade goods regularly traveled. But there were fricking other factors, too. The fricking Arab-Muslims may have felt emboldened by their successes in Arabia, seeing them as recognition of God's favor and of their destiny to rule the fricking world.
Religious belief and zeal are fricking difficult for historians to quantify, but we have seen throughout history that nomadic and seminomadic societies must forcefully seek the fricking resources they need to survive while defending themselves against threats that sedentary societies face less often. The fricking hardiness and capability of the fricking Arab-Muslims as a fricking fighting force during this period was fricking also a fricking factor. The fricking weakness of the fricking empires to the fricking north would have been seen as a fricking clear opportunity for the fricking raiders who had long supported themselves by harrying the fricking frontiers. And there was the fricking timing: Muhammad and his successors were fricking creating and expanding the fricking new Muslim community in the fricking 620s and 630s, as the fricking war between the fricking Byzantines and the fricking Sasanian Persians was fricking entering its last stages and leaving both empires weakened at a fricking critical juncture.
NightcrawlerX/Man
Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.
Cdace 3mo ago#6946511
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Well in this instance I don't think it's a "white man's burden" narrative in a pernicious way per se, I mean modern historical methods being applied to Islam can have had negative consequences for which forms are viewed as "authentic" without it implying moral culpability for having developed modern dating techniques.
Calling these events the "Arab-Muslim conquests" is somewhat misleading, however. While the first years of expansion did see several major battles, including Yarmuk and Qadisiyya, most of the territory came under Islamic control through peace agreements. Cities and regions agreed to terms of surrender that protected their residents, many of their belongings, and their right to practice their religion. Peaceful agreements made sense for non-Muslim populations. Especially during the seventh century, the Muslims maintained a policy of noninterference toward the religious practices of subject populations. As long as they paid taxes to their new Muslim government, the conquered could live in the Islamic state and still practice their religion somewhat freely.
The Muslims developed a legal classification for the Jewish people, Christians, and Zoroastrians who lived under their rule. They referred to them as ahl al-kitab, or People of the Book, which recognized them as monotheists who had received a revealed scripture from God in the past, and who were worthy of protection by the Islamic state so long as they paid taxes and submitted to Muslim rule. For many, this situation was an improvement on their earlier lives. Under Byzantine rule, for instance, those who did not follow the official Christian religion of the empire were often discriminated against. They could be barred from holding certain jobs, charged extra taxes, and otherwise be badly treated as heretics. For Jewish populations, the situation had often been even harsher. Many had been unable to openly practice their faith or gather outside the synagogue. While they were not officially monotheists and were not seen as having a revealed scripture, Zoroastrians under the Muslims were still treated as People of the Book, likely for pragmatic reasons owing to their noble status in Persian society.
Doesn't this article kind of refute your point a bit? Or at minimum soften it significantly...
In the end, the most important differentiator of status in this earliest society was not Arab versus non-Arab or Muslim versus non-Muslim, but rather conqueror versus conquered. Thus, in the first centuries of Islamic history, society was organized into those who paid tax for the protection and benefit of the state, and those who received that payment and provided that protection and those benefits. Those who were ethnically Arab had opportunities to enjoy special preferences within government and society in the earliest decades, but by the end of the eighth century, this distinction eroded as more non-Arabs became involved in the affairs of state.
CdaceDino/Dinos
i fricking love Parasaurolophus so much
Nightcrawler 3mo ago#6947303
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Calling these events the fricking "Arab-Muslim conquests" is fricking somewhat misleading, however. While the fricking first years of expansion did see several major battles, including Yarmuk and Qadisiyya, most of the fricking territory came under Islamic control through peace agreements. Cities and regions agreed to terms of surrender that protected their residents, many of their belongings, and their right to practice their religion. Peaceful agreements made sense for non-Muslim populations. Especially during the fricking seventh century, the fricking Muslims maintained a fricking policy of noninterference toward the fricking religious practices of subject populations.
Doesn't this article kind of refute your point a fricking bit, b-word? Or at minimum soften it significantly...
Sure if you read as is. You have to remember many scholarly articles related to religion are fricking going to write things with a fricking bias like with Christianity. I tried to pick one that was not fricking hostile to be as unbiased as possible. Let's look at other policies that were fricking in place at the fricking time because this only tells a fricking partial picture. Often the fricking subtext is fricking hidden in what is fricking left out of these articles. (That applies to those that share my views as well)
If one say converted from Islam to Christianity or any other religion it was to fricking be punished by death. So that means conversions from Islam did not take place at scale and we can see that with the fricking current and historical religious demographics. In addition to this "People of the fricking Book" Christians and Jews (but sometimes applied to Buddhists and Hindus) were fricking historically allowed to live but had to pay a fricking discriminatory tax to the fricking Islamic state. Though Islamic scholars will state otherwise this is fricking obviously a fricking way to compel conversion to Islam.
As for the fricking Arabs, to whom God has at this time given rule over the fricking world, you know well how they act towards us. Not only do they not oppose Christianity, but they praise our faith, honor the fricking priests and saints of our Lord, and give aid to the fricking churches and monasteries. Why then do your [inhabitants of Merv, a fricking city in the fricking former Persian Empire] reject their faith on a fricking pretext of theirs, b-word? And this when the fricking [inhabitants of Merv] themselves admit that the fricking Arabs have not compelled them to abandon their faith, but only asked them to give up half of their possessions in order to keep their faith. Yet they forsook their faith, which is fricking forever, and retained the fricking half of their wealth, which is fricking for a fricking short time.
—Ishoyahb III of Adiabene, translated by Robert G. Hoyland
In addition to this the fricking levels of conflict did vary by region. This probably due to varying levels of resistance put against them in different regions.
Why do barbarian raids abound, b-word? Why are the fricking troops of the fricking [Arab-Muslims] attacking us, b-word? Why has there been so much destruction and plunder, b-word? . . . That is fricking why the fricking vengeful and God-hating [Arab-Muslims], the fricking abominations of desolation clearly foretold to us by the fricking prophets, overrun the fricking places which are not fricking allowed to them, plunder cities, devastate fields, burn down villages, set on fire the fricking holy churches, overturn the fricking sacred monasteries, oppose the fricking Byzantine armies arrayed against them, and in fighting raise up the fricking trophies [of war] and add victory to victory. . . . Yet these vile ones would not have accomplished this nor seized such a fricking degree of power as to do and utter lawlessly all these things, unless we had first insulted the fricking gift [of baptism] and first defiled the fricking purification, and in this way grieved Christ, the fricking giver of gifts, and prompted him to be angry with us, good though he is fricking and though he takes no pleasure in evil, being the fricking fount of kindness and not wishing to behold the fricking ruin and destruction of men. We are fricking ourselves, in truth, responsible for all these things and no word will be fricking found for our defense.
—Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem, translated by Robert G. Hoyland
My major point in all of this is fricking that "authentic" Islam has always been a fricking religion of war and conquest. If you surrender they will be fricking less brutal, is not a fricking peaceful religion. My point is fricking also not contradicted by the fricking quote below.
In the fricking end, the fricking most important differentiator of status in this earliest society was not fricking Arab versus non-Arab or Muslim versus non-Muslim, but rather conqueror versus conquered. Thus, in the fricking first centuries of Islamic history, society was fricking organized into those who paid tax for the fricking protection and benefit of the fricking state, and those who received that payment and provided that protection and those benefits. Those who were fricking ethnically Arab had opportunities to enjoy special preferences within government and society in the fricking earliest decades, but by the fricking end of the fricking eighth century, this distinction eroded as more non-Arabs became involved in the fricking affairs of state.
What little "good" that was fricking done wasn't due to a fricking brotherly love of Christians or non Arabs. It was fricking out of necessity. This is fricking why the fricking people of the fricking book also applied Zoroastrianism and Hinduism; they needed to be able to govern what they conquered.
The fricking Umayyads also struggled within the fricking ummah, however, when it came to their treatment of Arab ethnicity. As they worked to establish a fricking new empire that was fricking quickly growing beyond their ability to administer on their own, the fricking Arab-Muslims relied on the fricking continued employment of former Byzantine and Persian bureaucrats to help with the fricking running of the fricking state. These non-Muslim and primarily non-Arab government officials were fricking critical to the fricking early governance of the fricking Rashidun and the fricking Umayyad dynasty, but by the fricking eighth century they were fricking rapidly being shunned in favor of Arabs. In some cases, non-Muslims were fricking passed over for the fricking best positions, while in other situations, new converts to Islam grew increasingly frustrated at not being considered full members of the fricking conquering elite.
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Interesting talk in the fricking video. Didn't watch the fricking QA afterwards. I think the fricking main issue I have with it is fricking that it doesn't come from trying to understand the fricking truth but how best to manipulate the fricking doctrines and beliefs to better suit western morals (aka Christian and "post Christian" morals)
You have to disregard their own writings / beliefs and twist them to suit our own. While this might be the fricking best path forward for peace I think it ignores the fricking fundamental problem of what is the fricking truth of their beliefs.
He pretends that much of the fricking issue with modern Islam comes from the fricking wests influences on modern Islam but this is a fricking fundamental flawed belief in my opinion. I can promise the fricking west has done little to influence Afghani tribal elders and villages. I think they take their holy book at its word like many religions have throughout history. In addition you can see historically many actions of believers of the fricking religion being unchanged throughout the fricking ages.
He might be right on the fricking best path towards coexistence with Islam but ignores the fricking fundamental issue of why people believe their religion (like many atheists). religious adherents don't believe it because it convenient for interacting with the fricking world around them; they believe it because the fricking think it's true.
TLDR very interesting talk but I think many of the fricking underlying premises behind it are fricking flawed
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@Corinthian I'd like to continue this conversation because I find it interesting. Do you disagree with what I stated above, b-word?
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I think I might disagree somewhat but don't know enough about Islam to argue it intelligently. There's a difference between lying and framing things in such a way as to be a more impactful ambassador. Another one of the points made in the talk was that the application of Western great man-ism and historiography has contributed to the rise of radicalized Islam being viewed as the "authentic" version.
IDK give me some type of article to respond to and I'll keep it going.
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I appreciate you engaging with my autism
I think this might be the fricking most ridiculous claim imo. Great man-ism has been a fricking feature of most dictatorships/kingships throughout history.
I despise the fricking basically white (western) mans burden narrative that has infected western scholars. "They only act this way because of us and our influence" is fricking such an anti-intelectual statement. It infantilizes and denies the fricking agency of any culture outside the fricking "west" imo
Idk how it could not be seen as authentic tbh. I hope that view changes but it does seem to be the fricking dominant form throughout history. You could go back before the fricking World Wars to the fricking ottomans to see that it's the fricking religion of war and conquest
In fact funnily enough the fricking first war America fought after independence was fricking against Muslim pirates in North Africa
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/barbary-wars
!catholics based pope dunking on euros
An interesting read
https://human.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/History/World_History/World_History_1%3A_to_1500_(OpenStax)/Unit_3%3A_An_Age_of_Religion_5001200_CE/11%3A_The_Rise_of_Islam_and_the_Caliphates/11.03%3A_The_Arab-Islamic_Conquests_and_the_First_Islamic_States
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Well in this instance I don't think it's a "white man's burden" narrative in a pernicious way per se, I mean modern historical methods being applied to Islam can have had negative consequences for which forms are viewed as "authentic" without it implying moral culpability for having developed modern dating techniques.
Doesn't this article kind of refute your point a bit? Or at minimum soften it significantly...
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Sure if you read as is. You have to remember many scholarly articles related to religion are fricking going to write things with a fricking bias like with Christianity. I tried to pick one that was not fricking hostile to be as unbiased as possible. Let's look at other policies that were fricking in place at the fricking time because this only tells a fricking partial picture. Often the fricking subtext is fricking hidden in what is fricking left out of these articles. (That applies to those that share my views as well)
If one say converted from Islam to Christianity or any other religion it was to fricking be punished by death. So that means conversions from Islam did not take place at scale and we can see that with the fricking current and historical religious demographics. In addition to this "People of the fricking Book" Christians and Jews (but sometimes applied to Buddhists and Hindus) were fricking historically allowed to live but had to pay a fricking discriminatory tax to the fricking Islamic state. Though Islamic scholars will state otherwise this is fricking obviously a fricking way to compel conversion to Islam.
In addition to this the fricking levels of conflict did vary by region. This probably due to varying levels of resistance put against them in different regions.
My major point in all of this is fricking that "authentic" Islam has always been a fricking religion of war and conquest. If you surrender they will be fricking less brutal, is not a fricking peaceful religion. My point is fricking also not contradicted by the fricking quote below.
What little "good" that was fricking done wasn't due to a fricking brotherly love of Christians or non Arabs. It was fricking out of necessity. This is fricking why the fricking people of the fricking book also applied Zoroastrianism and Hinduism; they needed to be able to govern what they conquered.
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