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I am once again stanning Tom Holland. (@ULTRANIGMATIC-MEGAVAMPIRE :marseyhesright:) New Atheists and popular level secular discussion are most often dominated by either political neoconservatives beating the drums of war or wishy-washy and absent minded liberals and have served to reinforce the extreme notions that the 'authentic' Islam is either a fundamentalist and violent one or a "religion of peace" rather than to find a path towards peace. Taking a strong position one way or the other belies a limited understanding of a millennia+ of history with large variation in practice and tolerance for religious difference. The most important political goal on this front is to remove the taboo on honest and nuanced discussions of the life of Muhammad and the Quran.

@Redactor0 want to weigh in? You know more on modern ME politics than most here including myself and unfortunately I don't think we have any experts on Islam itself.

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My father :marseyjohnson: saw the fricking reality of that religion :marseyluthercringe: showed me where :marseydrama: in their holy book it was fricking shown to be righteous as they murdered :marseyklennyrip: and r*ped women :marseyharpooner: and children :marseykermit: after beheading :marseybestfriends: their fathers. He was fricking more than a fricking grunt and saw much of what they did when they thought :marseymindblown: no one was fricking watching.

I pray no one on this site ever has to see that.

I don't think :marseymindblown: all Muslims are fricking monsters :marseymike: but their religion :marseydawkins: is fricking nothing short :marseymanlet: of monstrous.

If you base your life around christ :marseycrucified: you be a fricking man of peace. If you base your life around muhammed you will be a fricking man of war

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Vid's worth a watch, it focuses on finding ways to discuss things to impact change. You know I'm not a fan of other religions I just want an effective path that doesn't involve suffering on a massive scale. :marseysippingsad: I support Pope Francis in such efforts and hope our future pontiffs will continue to try to make inroads and foster dialogue.

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I pray he finds success :marseyoutried: with that I really :marseythinkorino2: do. That said just because I hope something :marseysmugface: doesn't mean I think :marseynooticeglow: it will come to fruition. I think :marseynoooticer: my view of humanity is fricking more cynical than yours but I do think :marseymischevious: trying to find peace :marseytombstone: instead of conflict :marseynoyouoccupy: is fricking always an admirable goal.

Blessed are the fricking peacemakers: for they shall be called the fricking children :marseychildclutch: of God.

I will watch :marseysharksoup: later :marseywave2: when I have an opportunity.

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I think :marseynoooticer: my view of humanity is fricking more cynical than yours

Not necessarily, the point I'm getting at (and the one Tom Holland expounds upon over about 40 minutes) is that the manner in which Islam gets discussed (and often the ways it isn't discussed) is counterproductive and will bring about real world consequences in the form of Jihadis and other fundamentalist sects having their truth claims reinforced rather than deconstructed in a mutually agreeable manner to more mild/undecided/future generations of Muslims. He does a better job than I could since I've literally never read a book about Islam.

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Interesting :marseylaying: talk in the fricking video. Didn't watch :marseyoperasmug: the fricking QA afterwards. I think :marseyhyperthonk: the fricking main issue I have with it is fricking that it doesn't come from trying to understand the fricking truth :marseyredcheck: but how best to manipulate the fricking doctrines and beliefs to better :marseysaulgoodman: suit western :marseycowboy: morals (aka Christian :marseyorthodox: and "post Christian" morals)

You have to disregard their own writings / beliefs and twist them to suit our own. While this might be the fricking best path forward for peace :marseyyoga: I think :marseynooticeglow: it ignores the fricking fundamental problem :marseytrolley: of what is the fricking truth :marseyredcheck: of their beliefs.

He pretends that much of the fricking issue with modern :marseywarhol: Islam :marseymuslimahitsover: comes from the fricking wests influences on modern :marseywarhol: Islam :marseyisis: but this is a fricking fundamental flawed belief in my opinion. I can promise the fricking west has done little :marseyelliotrodger: to influence Afghani tribal :marseyklennylegion: elders and villages. I think :marseyhyperthonk: they take their holy book at its word like many religions have throughout history. In addition you can see historically many actions of believers of the fricking religion :marseyluthersoy: being unchanged throughout the fricking ages.

He might be right :marseygasden: on the fricking best path towards coexistence with Islam :marseydinojihad: but ignores the fricking fundamental issue of why people believe :marseyparappa: their religion :marseyluthercringe: (like many atheists). religious :marseyjesus2: adherents don't believe :marseyparappa: it because it convenient for interacting with the fricking world :marseyww1american1: around them; they believe :marseyparappa: it because the fricking think :marseymindblown: it's true.

TLDR very interesting :marseylaying: talk but I think :marseyphilosoraptor: many of the fricking underlying premises behind :marseynotes2: it are fricking flawed

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@Corinthian I'd like to continue this conversation because I find it interesting. Do you disagree :marseyyesandno: with what I stated above, b-word?

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I think I might disagree somewhat but don't know enough about Islam to argue it intelligently. :marseyhmm: There's a difference between lying and framing things in such a way as to be a more impactful ambassador. Another one of the points made in the talk was that the application of Western great man-ism and historiography has contributed to the rise of radicalized Islam being viewed as the "authentic" version.

IDK give me some type of article to respond to and I'll keep it going.

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I appreciate you engaging with my autism

Western great man-ism

I think this might be the fricking most ridiculous claim imo. Great man-ism has been a fricking feature of most dictatorships/kingships throughout history.

I despise the fricking basically white (western) mans burden narrative that has infected western scholars. "They only act this way because of us and our influence" is fricking such an anti-intelectual statement. It infantilizes and denies the fricking agency of any culture outside the fricking "west" imo

contributed to the fricking rise of radicalized Islam being viewed as the fricking "authentic" version.

Idk how it could not be seen as authentic tbh. I hope that view changes but it does seem to be the fricking dominant form throughout history. You could go back before the fricking World Wars to the fricking ottomans to see that it's the fricking religion of war and conquest

In fact funnily enough the fricking first war America fought after independence was fricking against Muslim pirates in North Africa

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/barbary-wars

!catholics based pope dunking on euros

Pope Pius VII, too, praised the fricking Americans and their leader, Captain Stephen Decatur, stating, "The United States, though in their infancy, had done more to humble and humiliate the fricking anti-Christian barbarians on the fricking African coast in one night than all the fricking European states had done for a fricking long period of time."

:#marseycrusade:

An interesting read

https://human.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/History/World_History/World_History_1%3A_to_1500_(OpenStax)/Unit_3%3A_An_Age_of_Religion_5001200_CE/11%3A_The_Rise_of_Islam_and_the_Caliphates/11.03%3A_The_Arab-Islamic_Conquests_and_the_First_Islamic_States

Abu Bakr did not live long after Muhammad, and the fricking conquest movement did not stop with his leadership, nor with uniting just the fricking Arab tribes under the fricking banner of Islam. The fricking new state's expansionist desire seems to have existed from the fricking outset, and the fricking Arab-Muslim armies turned their attention northward to the fricking old empires of Sasanian Persia and Byzantium. They were fricking likely inspired by the fricking richness of these lands, where they knew resources were fricking more plentiful and luxury trade goods regularly traveled. But there were fricking other factors, too. The fricking Arab-Muslims may have felt emboldened by their successes in Arabia, seeing them as recognition of God's favor and of their destiny to rule the fricking world.

Religious belief and zeal are fricking difficult for historians to quantify, but we have seen throughout history that nomadic and seminomadic societies must forcefully seek the fricking resources they need to survive while defending themselves against threats that sedentary societies face less often. The fricking hardiness and capability of the fricking Arab-Muslims as a fricking fighting force during this period was fricking also a fricking factor. The fricking weakness of the fricking empires to the fricking north would have been seen as a fricking clear opportunity for the fricking raiders who had long supported themselves by harrying the fricking frontiers. And there was the fricking timing: Muhammad and his successors were fricking creating and expanding the fricking new Muslim community in the fricking 620s and 630s, as the fricking war between the fricking Byzantines and the fricking Sasanian Persians was fricking entering its last stages and leaving both empires weakened at a fricking critical juncture.

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