Redactor0naori/oppa
The Rachel Dolezal of Maronite Christians.
3mo ago#6942378
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Radiocarbon dating is way way more complicated than popular media ever lets on and you've got to be very cautious when using it in archaeology. (I think it's probably way more useful for fossils but maybe that's just the Murray Gell-Mann effect.)
On the other hand, as @Alliteration says, how does this just suddenly appear out of nowhere? Other relics at least are claimed to have some chain of custody. Like the bones of St. Nicholas in Bari where they can trace back when and where they originally came from.
I don't put a lot of stock into it personally but I do find it funny that people are shocked that a middle eastern person from that region looks middle eastern.
The Syrian actor from the Chosen looks a lot like him.
Eeeeeeee/eeeeeee
Imma sneak over like a spider and get sum of dat fat butt
Horned_waifus_shill 3mo ago#6943320
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The whole bit where they can make a 3d image that is Jesus like from the image on the shroud is pretty neat. I don't think anyone is questioning that the shroud is very old. I'm sure you could find very old light reactive chemicals that would make an image of varying darkness based on light exposure, but how would you project the light correctly with old tech. It's just so well done
redactedthey/them 3mo ago#6940438
Edited 3mo ago
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So the carbon dating must be ignored because it is a rethreading of the corner that was tested, but the absence of vanillin is evidence of older dating? So why is vanillin missing on the supposed rethreaded area too? "well, the was a fire, and it only burned the fringes" lmao. What about the even younger dyeing? "Well that proves repair and restoration". The state of shroudcels.
The historical record of the shroud did it for me.
Put asides all scientific tests, the first historical reference of the shroud is in 1390 AD in France by a bishop claiming it is a forgery and also claiming to know the artist having made the shroud.
I just don't buy that a 1st century eastern shroud that should be one of the holiest relics of christendom just randomly appears in western europe after 1300 years. Just as the cult of relics starts to really pick up.
NightcrawlerX/Man
Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.
Alliteration 3mo ago#6940352
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Relics had been regular features of the faith going back far further than that, the first recorded account dates to 156 AD with the martyrdom of St. Polycarp of Smyrna and the collection of his burnt bones (who was a pupil of St. John the Apostle) and the Romans were fighting the Persians to control the True Cross 700 years before this. !historychads
Early !Christians faith furthermore owes to our Jewish forebears practice and the Bible itself, not just a !Catholics thing: Exodus 30:28-29 2 Kings 2:13-14
Most importantly 2 Kings 13:
21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
and in the NT Mark 5:
27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. 28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. 29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
Acts 19:
12 from his [Paul's] body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
Yeah, I'm not saying all relics are fake, just that there was a big demand of relics in western europe at the time that led to forgeries for monetary gain.
The very example he quoted, the true cross, is far from being uncontroversial, as people didn't even know where Jesus had been buried, and executed, by the time an inquiry was commissioned on the matter by the emperor centuries later. This muppet mentions the true cross, but he doesn't even know the history around it.
You are also missing my point. Relics and fraud are something that have gone hand in hand for a long time. If the shroud were known when fabrications like the true cross were being pushed on others, why would anyone not reveal it?
NightcrawlerX/Man
Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.
redacted 3mo ago#6940536
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No, I understand your point, you're just targetting a and being uncivil about it. Both in the thread last week and in this one I've said that there are interesting anomalies without clear answers about the claimed authentic Shroud but have never affirmed to have personal belief in the validity of it. My comment about the True Cross was mostly a pivot towards the oft repeated notion from Protestants that relics are a medieval superstition rather than a practice dating back to the beginning.
I'm aware that many relics are frauds, unless the decapitated head of St. John the Baptist miraculously cloned itself a couple times.
NightcrawlerX/Man
Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.
Alliteration 3mo ago#6940440
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I know, I'm just nitpicking since I think a lot of Protestants and agnostics in the Anglosphere generally tend to have been raised thinking it was a Catholic extra-Biblical piece of idolatry and you gave me a prompt to work with on that. It's part of my normal apologetics routine, your comment sums up how plenty of practicing religious folks feel and I personally have gone back and forth.
The most interesting piece to me is if it's a fabrication how they were able to create a photo-negative type image. At least in the discussions I've seen there isn't presently a good explanation for how Europeans of the age would accomplish that.
the altar of burnt offering with all its utensils, and the basin with its base. You shall sanctify them, that they may be most holy. Whatever touches them shall be holy.
2 Kings 2:13-14
He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of the Jordan. He took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and struck the waters, and said, Where is Tʜᴇ Lᴏʀᴅ, the God of Elijah? and when he also had struck the waters, they were divided here and there; and Elisha went over.
NightcrawlerX/Man
Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.
3mo ago#6940259
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I don't think anyone's faith in the authenticity of individual relics should be a central focus or obsession given that some have been discovered fabricated, but as @Geralt_of_Uganda and I were discussing on this thread in the top comment chain last week I think there are solid reasons to not dismiss it solely from the carbon dating performed on fragments at the edges of the Shroud decades ago. Go upmarsey his comment and @GOCK4LYF_HIGHtil_iDie's tweet that took over the thread lol.
Snappybeep/boop
Join !friendsofsnappy
3mo ago#6940245
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"Each of you knows that the foundation of our faith is charity. Without it, our religion would crumble. We will never be truly Catholic unless we conform our entire lives to the two commandments that are the essence of the Catholic faith: to love the Lord, our God, with all our strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves… With charity, we sow the seeds of that true peace which only our faith in Jesus Christ can give us by making us all brothers and sisters. I know that this way is steep, and difficult, and strewn with thorns, while at first glance the other path seems easier, more pleasant, and more satisfying. But the fact is, if we could look into the hearts of those who follow the perverse paths of this world, we would see that they lack the serenity that comes to those who have faced a thousand difficulties and who have renounced material pleasure to follow God's law."-Blessed Piero Giorgio Frassati
1. Disrespect towards God and the Church is not allowed here.
2. We honor the dignity of life from the womb to the tomb.
3. Debate about Scripture, tradition, politics, etc. are allowed when they do not directly contradict rule 1 (controversial history is an open topic when people are respectful).
4. Trolling, coomerisms, and poorly attempted humor may receive the mop at the discretion of those in charge.
5. Pray for your family, pray for your community, pray for your nation, and pray for rDrama.net. We need it! Prayer works!
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I hate it when I lie down on a bedsheet and a photocopy of me is left imprinted on the sheets
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Radiocarbon dating is way way more complicated than popular media ever lets on and you've got to be very cautious when using it in archaeology. (I think it's probably way more useful for fossils but maybe that's just the Murray Gell-Mann effect.)
On the other hand, as @Alliteration says, how does this just suddenly appear out of nowhere? Other relics at least are claimed to have some chain of custody. Like the bones of St. Nicholas in Bari where they can trace back when and where they originally came from.
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I imagine that's the reason the Church doesn't acknowledge it as true
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The only answers can come from testing it again. The issues with the last tests and their refusal to do more is enough to ignore it.
There is some evidence that it could be an early attempt at photography. Thats the only explanation ive heard that holds water.
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It's certainly interesting. I'd like to know how they faked it if it's fake
Putting the in
spookieturkeyJump in the discussion.
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I don't put a lot of stock into it personally but I do find it funny that people are shocked that a middle eastern person from that region looks middle eastern.
The Syrian actor from the Chosen looks a lot like him.
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Cool if true, but most likely fake.
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1. Either Real
2. Or monk invented photography 800 years ago
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If it is fake, HOW THE FRICK WAS IT MADE? is a more pressing question than it being real or not
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The whole bit where they can make a 3d image that is Jesus like from the image on the shroud is pretty neat. I don't think anyone is questioning that the shroud is very old. I'm sure you could find very old light reactive chemicals that would make an image of varying darkness based on light exposure, but how would you project the light correctly with old tech. It's just so well done
Putting the in
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It's well done because it's real
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schizos kept filling my twitter feed with ai generated jesus pics because of it. frick that c*m rag its fake anyways.
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So the carbon dating must be ignored because it is a rethreading of the corner that was tested, but the absence of vanillin is evidence of older dating? So why is vanillin missing on the supposed rethreaded area too? "well, the was a fire, and it only burned the fringes" lmao. What about the even younger dyeing? "Well that proves repair and restoration". The state of shroudcels.
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The historical record of the shroud did it for me.
Put asides all scientific tests, the first historical reference of the shroud is in 1390 AD in France by a bishop claiming it is a forgery and also claiming to know the artist having made the shroud.
I just don't buy that a 1st century eastern shroud that should be one of the holiest relics of christendom just randomly appears in western europe after 1300 years. Just as the cult of relics starts to really pick up.
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Relics had been regular features of the faith going back far further than that, the first recorded account dates to 156 AD with the martyrdom of St. Polycarp of Smyrna and the collection of his burnt bones (who was a pupil of St. John the Apostle) and the Romans were fighting the Persians to control the True Cross 700 years before this. !historychads
Early !Christians faith furthermore owes to our Jewish forebears practice and the Bible itself, not just a !Catholics thing: Exodus 30:28-29 2 Kings 2:13-14
Most importantly 2 Kings 13:
and in the NT Mark 5:
Acts 19:
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Even what is called the "true cross" was a fabrication. You clearly don't know much about where the claim of the true cross being found come from.
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Yeah, I'm not saying all relics are fake, just that there was a big demand of relics in western europe at the time that led to forgeries for monetary gain.
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The very example he quoted, the true cross, is far from being uncontroversial, as people didn't even know where Jesus had been buried, and executed, by the time an inquiry was commissioned on the matter by the emperor centuries later. This muppet mentions the true cross, but he doesn't even know the history around it.
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When did I say the True Cross was necessarily the real deal? There's no need to be rude, friend.
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You are also missing my point. Relics and fraud are something that have gone hand in hand for a long time. If the shroud were known when fabrications like the true cross were being pushed on others, why would anyone not reveal it?
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No, I understand your point, you're just targetting a and being uncivil about it. Both in the thread last week and in this one I've said that there are interesting anomalies without clear answers about the claimed authentic Shroud but have never affirmed to have personal belief in the validity of it. My comment about the True Cross was mostly a pivot towards the oft repeated notion from Protestants that relics are a medieval superstition rather than a practice dating back to the beginning.
I'm aware that many relics are frauds, unless the decapitated head of St. John the Baptist miraculously cloned itself a couple times.
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I know, I'm just nitpicking since I think a lot of Protestants and agnostics in the Anglosphere generally tend to have been raised thinking it was a Catholic extra-Biblical piece of idolatry and you gave me a prompt to work with on that. It's part of my normal apologetics routine, your comment sums up how plenty of practicing religious folks feel and I personally have gone back and forth.
The most interesting piece to me is if it's a fabrication how they were able to create a photo-negative type image. At least in the discussions I've seen there isn't presently a good explanation for how Europeans of the age would accomplish that.
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Exodus 30:28-29
2 Kings 2:13-14
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So how much CK2 did you play?
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@Corinthian is not neurodivergent and I'd appreciate it if you didn't say that he was.
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He is literally a yugioh player
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I might not be video game/anime but I do have some spergy tendencies if we're being honest.
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I haven't played any of them, last time I was into video games was when Xbox 360 was still the current console.
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That's when CK2 released
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The first time i sounded a bone fragment from jesus' hand i knew i came so hard i had to find salvation.
Happy?
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It's nothing personal, if you repent and sin no more I'll undo it.
Have a blessed day, @NO.
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I don't think anyone's faith in the authenticity of individual relics should be a central focus or obsession given that some have been discovered fabricated, but as @Geralt_of_Uganda and I were discussing on this thread in the top comment chain last week I think there are solid reasons to not dismiss it solely from the carbon dating performed on fragments at the edges of the Shroud decades ago. Go upmarsey his comment and @GOCK4LYF_HIGHtil_iDie's tweet that took over the thread lol.
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"Each of you knows that the foundation of our faith is charity. Without it, our religion would crumble. We will never be truly Catholic unless we conform our entire lives to the two commandments that are the essence of the Catholic faith: to love the Lord, our God, with all our strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves… With charity, we sow the seeds of that true peace which only our faith in Jesus Christ can give us by making us all brothers and sisters. I know that this way is steep, and difficult, and strewn with thorns, while at first glance the other path seems easier, more pleasant, and more satisfying. But the fact is, if we could look into the hearts of those who follow the perverse paths of this world, we would see that they lack the serenity that comes to those who have faced a thousand difficulties and who have renounced material pleasure to follow God's law."-Blessed Piero Giorgio Frassati
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