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Intel's Problems Are Even Worse Than You've Heard | TLDR ARM :marseytrans2:won :marseyxd: x86 :marseychud: lost

https://www.wsj.com/tech/intel-microchip-competitors-challenges-562a42e3

You may think you know how much Intel is struggling, but the reality is worse.

The once-mighty American innovation powerhouse is losing market share in multiple areas that are critical to its profitability. Its many competitors include not just the AI juggernaut Nvidia but smaller rivals and even previously stalwart allies like Microsoft.

One flashing warning sign: In the latest quarter reported by both companies, Intel's perennial also-ran, AMD, actually eclipsed Intel's revenue for chips that go into data centers. This is a stunning reversal: In 2022, Intel's data-center revenue was three times that of AMD.

AMD and others are making huge inroads into Intel's bread-and-butter business of making the world's most cutting-edge and powerful general-purpose chips, known as CPUs, short for central processing units.

Even worse, more and more of the chips that go into data centers are GPUs, short for graphics processing units, and Intel has minuscule market share of these high-end chips. GPUs are used for training and delivering AI.

By focusing on the all-important metric of performance per unit of energy pumped into their chips, AMD went from almost no market share in servers to its current ascendant position, says AMD Chief Technology Officer Mark Papermaster. As data centers become ever more rapacious for energy, this emphasis on efficiency has become a key advantage for AMD.

Notably, Intel still has about 75% of the market for CPUs that go into data centers. The disconnect between that figure and the company's share of revenue from selling a wider array of chips for data centers only serves to illustrate the core problem driving its reversal of fortunes.

This situation looks likely to get worse, and quickly. Many of the companies spending the most on building out new data centers are switching to chips that have nothing to do with Intel's proprietary architecture, known as x86, and are instead using a combination of a competing architecture from ARM and their own custom chip designs.

A spokeswoman for Intel says the company is focused on simplifying and strengthening its product portfolio, and advancing its manufacturing and foundry capabilities while optimizing costs. Intel interim Co-Chief Executive Michelle Johnston Holthaus recently said that 2025 will be a "year of stabilization" for the company. Intel is currently seeking a permanent leader after its CEO Pat Gelsinger was pushed out last month.

The decades that developers spent writing software for Intel's chips mean that Intel remains a giant, even as its market share has shrunk, and that legacy will limit how quickly Intel's revenues can decline in the future.

Analysts estimate Intel's 2024 revenue was about $55 billion, just behind Nvidia's approximately $60 billion. Intel still has the lion's share of the market for desktop and notebook CPUs—around 76%, overall, according to Mercury Research.

AMD recently formed an alliance with Intel to collaborate on support and development of the x86 ecosystem that both companies make chips for. Papermaster says that his own company continues to invest in this ecosystem even as AMD also develops ARM-based chips for some applications, such as networking and embedded devices.

For a concrete example of Intel's challenges, look at Amazon, the world's biggest provider of cloud computing. More than half of the CPUs Amazon has installed in its data centers over the past two years were its own custom chips based on ARM's architecture, Dave Brown, Amazon vice president of compute and networking services, said recently.

This displacement of Intel is being repeated all across the big providers and users of cloud computing services. Microsoft and Google have also built their own custom, ARM-based CPUs for their respective clouds. In every case, companies are moving in this direction because of the kind of customization, speed and efficiency that custom silicon allows.

All those companies are also making their own custom, ARM-based chips for AI workloads, an area where Intel has missed the boat almost entirely. Then there's the 800-pound gorilla in AI, Nvidia. Many of Nvidia's current-generation AI systems have Intel CPUs in them, but ARM-based chips are increasingly taking center stage in the company's bleeding-edge hardware.

Intel's repeated flubs in entering markets for new kinds of computing and new applications for chips are a textbook example of a big, profitable incumbent becoming a victim of the innovator's dilemma, says Doug O'Laughlin, an industry analyst at SemiAnalysis, which recently published a blistering report on Intel. The innovator's dilemma holds that powerful companies that are unwilling to cannibalize their biggest sources of revenue can be overtaken by upstarts that build competing products that start out small, but which can ultimately take over the market which the incumbent dominates—like the mobile chips which ARM started off with.

In 1988, former Intel CEO Andy Grove published a book called Only the Paranoid Survive, which highlighted the ways that companies have to be vigilant about what's coming next, and be willing to disrupt themselves and pursue new technologies.

What he intended as a warning to all companies has since become a prophecy foretelling Intel's current difficulties.

"The book is literally about the importance of not missing strategic inflections, and then Intel proceeds to miss every single strategic inflection since," says O'Laughlin.

Then there are laptops. After decades of trying to make it happen, 2024 was finally the year of credible, ARM-based laptops running Windows, thanks to efforts by Microsoft to make Windows on ARM work. The company convinced other companies to port their own software, and created cowtools that allow most existing programs to run on the new laptops, in emulation. Chips in these devices are made by Qualcomm, and benchmarks show that they can finally compete with Apple's M-class mobile processors, which are also based on a combination of ARM technology and a great deal of custom chip design by Apple's formidable in-house team.

Another bastion of market share and profits for Intel, the PC gaming market, is also showing early signs of erosion. Portable gaming systems like Valve's Steam Deck and the Lenovo Legion Go, which can run even very demanding games, use processors from AMD. Future devices that will be part of the company's plan to license its custom OS to other manufacturers may also use ARM-based ones.

Inherent in Intel's woes is the way its vertically integrated structure, long an asset, now weighs on the company's bottom line and ability to innovate. Unlike other companies that either design chips or manufacture them, Intel has stuck to a seemingly antiquated model of doing both.

Intel reported a $16 billion loss in its most recent quarter as it spent big to transform into a contract manufacturer—that is, a company that also manufactures chips for other companies, even competitors—and catch up to rival TSMC, which now produces the world's most cutting-edge chips.

Analysts expect Intel to return to profitability in 2025, but it won't be clear for years whether the company's big manufacturing bets will ultimately pay off.

One of the big bets of Intel's recently departed CEO Gelsinger, was Intel's attempt to leapfrog TSMC in terms of chip technology. What it calls its "18A" tech could in theory allow its own chips, and those it makes for outsiders, to once again be the most cutting-edge, and the fastest, on the planet. The company has said it could regain that title by 2026. Intel recently announced it had signed a deal with Amazon to make custom chips for the company, using its 18A technology.

Even if Intel can once again lead the industry with its technology, the best case scenario for Intel's own products is that it regains dominance in a market that continues to shrink—the x86 CPU one, says O'Laughlin. The removal of Gelsinger, who was betting on an all-in strategy for Intel to regain dominance both in the market for its own chips and in serving outside companies, suggests that Intel's board agrees that the company can't continue to count on being the best in the world at everything.

All of these challenges and conflicting priorities may push Intel to someday split in two, severing its product side from manufacturing. Intel Co-CEO David Zinsner recently said that spinning off the company's manufacturing side is an "open question."

It's also possible, in the worst case, that a fate even worse than being dismembered could be in store for Intel.

Rene Haas, CEO of ARM, recently observed that Intel has long been an innovation powerhouse, but that in chipmaking and design, there are countless companies that don't innovate fast enough—and no longer exist.

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You rule, Kats! :beavisandbuttheadrocking: thank you for tech goss :marseybow:

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GOOD thread

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i didn't read it what was the gist

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Intel missed the boat on AI cards, lost the ARM(:marseyawesomeface:)s race for PC gaming, and the x86 structure is losing serverfarm market share to proprietary/specialized chips.

Looks like Intel's running out of people to sell their shit to and want to pivot into being a manufacturer for other people's chips.

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Oh nice thanks

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Intels bread and butter (selling to data centers) has been eaten into by AMD and custom ARM chips, the g*mer market has been taken over by AMD, and the casual market is seeming ARM entry via Apple M series macs and windows on ARM. Meaning intel is loosing it's bread and butter industries and partners despite holding a majority share of cpu usage.

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Intel's problem is that they're taking L's on literally every front. They're losing in client CPU market, they're losing in datacenter CPU market, they completely missed out on AI hype, their GPU's are a low volume, low margin product that's broken as heck (see today's Hardware Unboxed video for example), their manufacturing has sucked since 2015 and 18A should be, at best, on par with TSMC's N3 so they'll be a node behind there too.

There's been a talk about them spinning off fabs since they're a massive money sink with no customers, but the issue is the CPU design team is losing to everyone else too at the moment - Lunar Lake is their only decent product and that's thanks to going all out on things that reduce idle power (made by TSMC, on package RAM, PMIC's instead of VRM to mitigate switching losses etc.), and I guess their e-core design team has a good core in performance/area, as far as x86 goes anyway.

So, what the heck is Intel actually good at now?

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At this point they are kept alive by brand recognition and interia. People just walking into best buy and buying a random prebuilt or laptop without any care or the old heads who only buy Intel because 10 years ago they tried AMD and it sucked. I mean in the gaming world AMD used to be like the Linux if you used it on a game and it was broken everyone would make fun of you "how dare game studios be expected to pander to such a small market demo!" and now all the handheld mini PCs have gone with AMD and the ryzen is pretty much the g*mer line now.

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how dare game studios be expected to pander to such a small market demo

AMD also had some truly awful CPUs from Bulldozer onwards so buying AMD was being a deliberate r-slur until they turned the ship around.

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My friends dad refuses to upgrade his piledriver cpu.

I don't understand it at all, it was literally worse than CPUs of the same era.

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Funnily enough, for handhelds Lunar Lake is arguably the best choice, but they're in the exact situation AMD was in that you described, they don't have the mindshare, as established of a support and probably some volume struggles too - I'd imagine they'd rather sell Lunar Lake to laptop manufacturers.

the ryzen is pretty much the g*mer line now

Honestly if you just game there's basically no reason to buy anything other than 7800X3D - if you're on a budget, get cheapest Zen 4 you can find (7600 or 7500F), if you have money to blow, 9800X3D. Literally no other CPU's need to exist for gaming.

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9950x3d coming out in a few days

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Still 3D cache only on 1 CCD AFAIK, if you have the use case for extra cores sure, if you just game 9800X3D will be on par or better.

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9950x3d is supposed to be clocked higher, but yeah I'm pretty much always running shit in the background.

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18A should be, at best, on par with TSMC's N3 so they'll be a node behind there too.

I remember when Intel nodes were better than equivalently named nodes from their competitors...

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Saddest thing is Lunar Lake is a one-off. It brought them to parity with AMD chips for thin and lights laptops, but the on-package memory and tile was too expensive apparently. After the disaster that was Arrow Lake I'm not optimistic for Panther and Nova Lake. I dont think Intel will have a complete collapse like people are predicting, but they'll continue their slow decline.

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It's curious just why it's a one off, if they didn't want to maintain a dedicated product for just one segment when they need to save money, the margins are just that bad it isn't worth it, or their partners weren't happy about the more expensive power delivery system and on package RAM (no +200$ for 16GB extra RAM for Lenovo or Asus, Intel takes some of that pie).

I don't envy next Intel CEO's position, they have some big decisions to make, what to back and invest in, what to cut/divest from, apparently they're also planning to go to a single, unified core design that's lead by one of the two design teams - will they choose E core team or P core team, etc.

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According to Pat it's the on package RAM. OEMs wouldn't cover the additional expenses cause they wanted to use their own RAM, so Intel just ate the cost.

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Bro. I'm just praying that some of this moves us off the god-awful x86 architecture in the consumer space. It's such a tragedy that Itanium failed, because Apple has shown how much better ARM is than x86.

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We are slowly reaching a point where normies buying a laptop will randomly buy a windows qualcomm one and not realize it :marseyxd:

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MichaelSoft should have gone all in porting more software to ARM. Those Surface Elite laptops were actually actually good (except for graphics) and dropped in price fairly quickly. Sick battery life on them, basically equal to MacBooks, but ultimately like Apple they didn't force their devs to switch to ARM.

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Apple will prop drop Roessta support in a few years and force devs to move onto universial binaries. Tho in a funny twist you can actually make universial binaries to run on x86,Arm, and ppc macs.

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Reported by:

Itanium was bad then and would be bad now. Architectures are all moving more towards dynamic scheduling and mapping macro-ops to micro-ops in hardware. The explicit parallelism and low-level instructions for Itanium would be even more worthless now than when Intel started down that path.

Modern RISC isn't even RISC in a classic way. ARM is just a different instruction set with more flexible licensing (for the instructions and hardware) than the x86 duopoly of Intel and AMD. What we're seeing is an intellectual property revolution, not a technical one.

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All my homies hate x86. Intel choosing it over the i960 was a big mistake.

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>ARM :marseytrans2:won :marseyxd: x86 :marseychud: lost

Aware me on the culture war angle

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One of ARM's co creators is a trans queen !cuteandvalid

https://i.rdrama.net/images/1736006157wYhqNorICEKYpQ.webp

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:#10inbongland: :#marseypass2:

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8.5 in bongland

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https://media.tenor.com/NOTnLYPTTwYAAAAx/rip-bozo-bozo.webp

I fricking :marseytom: hate intel

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At long fricking last!

Intel stopped innovating for nearly 10 years, nice and comfy with their 80% market share. The 12th gen was the first time they did something interesting since Sandy Bridge, and all they did was basically copy ARM's chip design.

Also it turns out all their 13th and 14th chips are gonna die lol sucks to be them

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Fuming at the CTO of a computer company being called Papermaster. He should quit immediately :marseymad:

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It's time for IBM to make their comeback...

It's time to RTVRN to POWER architecture.

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Nintendo was the last holdout of PPC. The wii u still used PPC which caused a bunch of dev issues.

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Fake news. I actually own a POWER9 PC from raptor computing systems, and its on my desk at home. I'm running gentoo on it rn.

like this: https://www.raptorcs.com/content/TL1MB1/intro.html

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PPC VLE is still heavily used in automotive. It looks like it is being sunset for new developments - newer automotive micros are ARM or RH850 (NEC V850).

e: forgot Infineon TriCore


https://i.rdrama.net/images/1741003488tqIRWtbEmPwOBQ.webp

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Need me a new Thinkpad with the IBM logo back on the lid.

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Because op cant write so people who have lifes can read it too:

Market Share Decline: Losing ground in data centers to AMD, with a diminishing presence in the growing GPU market for AI applications.

Efficiency and Architecture: Competitors are moving to more energy-efficient ARM and custom chips, reducing reliance on Intel's x86 architecture.

Strategic Failures: Intel has missed key tech trends like AI and mobile computing, facing the innovator's dilemma.

Leadership Transition: Post-Gelsinger, Intel is under interim leadership, aiming for stabilization but with an uncertain future strategy.

Manufacturing Issues: Intel's integrated model is now a liability, with substantial financial losses as it tries to catch up in manufacturing technology.

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risc-v will kill arm

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In 5 years apple will be making risc v computers. They have a compulsive need to radically shift architectures

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Lmao, no barrel shifter, never gonna be competitive. :marseyhomofascist:

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CPUs, short for central processing units

There is no person unfamiliar with "CPUs" as a term who will suddenly understand when it's expanded to "central processing units."

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Do you know how hard it is to work with arm?

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How do I blame this on Indians?

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Holy shit!

What's everyone to do?

What a ride.

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After decades of trying to make it happen, 2024 was finally the year of credible, ARM-based laptops running Windows, thanks to efforts by Microsoft to make Windows on ARM work. The company convinced other companies to port their own software, and created cowtools that allow most existing programs to run on the new laptops, in emulation. Chips in these devices are made by Qualcomm, and benchmarks show that they can finally compete with Apple's M-class mobile processors,

Theyre still harking out this shit???

im literally screaming, :#marseyemojirofl:

I just think it's funny that Sales have been flat, and its going to flop like it did last time

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