As you can see on the list, only one Patriot system has been delivered and that one is from 2022, if I remember correctly. Biden announced another patriot system in June 2024, but it seems that that's exactly one of those AA systems Ukraine is still waiting for.
: America, can you give us that Patriot system we talked about? We could really use it right now.
: Nope, sorry Ukraine. I'm too busy sending another THAAD to Israel, you understand of course.
: Oh...
Interesting bit of news from a month(ish) ago - the EU promised Ukraine 1 million shells in March '23 but as of September 30th, has only been able to deliver ~30% of it 🙃
: Is anyone actually making that munition we promised to give to Ukraine?
: Lol, no.
Lots of angry comments here 
Dude needs to keep down the whinging for a week or so unless he wants all the aid stopped.
And here 
Who cares. They should fight strategically not with so much volume of consumption.
I have vague memories of a pumpkin faced man telling Europe they need to up their military spending and be laughed at for it back in 2016
You mean when he tried to claim the increased spending by European nations as his own work while it was exactly on the schedule Obama negotiated?
Nato's military doctrine is to gain aerial superiority and subsequently crush opponents through a combined arms means. It's fundamentally not designed for prolonged artillery satuation like we are seeing in ukraine, as such nato countries have not had much reason to manufacture artillery at scale prior to this war since it was not how nato planned to fight any war its directly involved in.
: Wtf are you people even doing at this point?
If the race really is as close as it is or Trump does win it, Bidens last act needs to be donating all the US's aircraft carriers, Tomahawks and F35s to Ukraine.
Democracy will fail either way but at least this way we go down fighting.
How is giving up all your shit and doing nothing else going down fighting? 
So, the Federal Government is shelling out the money to defense contractors and the Pentagon but only 10% of the actual hardware is getting delivered?
So who is stealing the remaining 90%?
This is the kind of thing firing squads were invented for.
Didn't pack the rockets to Ukraine fast enough? Straight to firing squad you go 
That's a bit of a reach. The items just haven't been delivered yet. I placed an order online 2 days ago, 0% of my order has been delivered today, it looks like it's en route and when UPS drops it off 100% of my order will be delivered.
That doesn't mean 100% of my order has currently been stolen.
We can certainly talk about lead times, delays, etc. which can be a problem, but what reason do we have to assume 90% has been stolen?
I want to see the Amazon tracking for billions in military hardware en-route to Ukraine.
Especially the photo of all of it sitting on Zelensky's doorstep.
Consider this, the shortest route is off the east coast of the US. Shipping was shut down for a while. Then also take into consideration that Customs can take a REALLY FREAKING LONG TIME for non-military shipments and requires detailed information. Now if it goes through an anti-Ukranian country then they can make the process take over a year for customs to clear it to pass. Now add the other countries en route. What does that mean? Shipping is a -b-word- when it comes to moving military equipment.
Why the shit would America's weapons go through an anti-Ukraine country? 
youre assuming things
Yep. And I will continue to assume them while the evidence appears to support the assumption.
I will un-assume them when the missing 90% of aid winds up where it is supposed to be.
Yeah, imagine assuming defense contracts are bloated sham deals where many individuals line their pockets.
You could just check the GAO's high risk list and associated assessments and see the US gov confirm, with research, the vulnerabilities of DOD contracting to boated sham deals and individual enrichment, across seven broad DOD-related entries.
That's not what it's reporting, and you darn well know that... Why blatantly lie? The GAO's report is on high risk projects and programs, such as ambitious programs that are likely too demanding on technology, or a way too low ball deal.
The willingness of people to blatantly lie when their own sources call them a liar is baffling, yet here you are... Pathetic and shameful
I actually don't think OP is lying he's just really dumb lol
Just reddit things 
??? they are just slow at transferring the material to Ukraine, nobody is stealing it
The argument goes on if you're curious 
The U.S. military has noted repeatedly that readiness stocks have been dangerously depleted and that manufacturing is not keeping pace with replacements necessary before releasing further stocks. Add in Israeli requirements and this is no surprise. The US is not going to jeopardize its own defense for Ukraine, no matter what
: Look Ukraine, not sending weapons to Israel is a threat to America, ok?
: But America...
Defending Ukraine is defending the US.
Lmao 
LMAO. Yall are wild with your takes. What makes you think that Russia could do anything to the US?
The political experts on /r/worldnews have tried to answer this but they used too many 
and I'm too lazy to copypaste everything 
Right - just like Vietnam was defending the US. What's NATO membership if you get all the benefits without all the costs and don't even have to join? The Pentagon gave up on the domino theory 4 decades ago, old timer
if they were in NATO there would be F22s and 35s flying over Ukraine carrying out fire missions and the Russian fleet would have been sunk 2 years earlier.
also, pentagon doesn't determine policy. they enact it.
"[The P]entagon doesn't determine policy" - that's a good one, I'll tell that one the next time I get together with my DOD colleagues -ex military, DOD
who controls the pentagon/DOD? who controls their funding?
do they have their own policies? sure. but they answer to the President and Congress. They can't just on their own decide (legally) "hey lets start giving weapons to Thailand and do strikes into Zimbabwe." only the CIA is allowed to do that (/j).
You really are clueless, aren't you? Start with Eisenhower and his warnings about the military industrial complex; move on to the Pentagon Papers… I love you armchair warriors who have never even been inside the Pentagon, where the birds are making the coffee
Although I will grant you that the president gets to choose which Pentagon-formulated policies to implement. That is why the generals didn't like Trump, btw, because he would always choose the craziest and most belligerent policy. After a while, they stopped giving him choices. As for Congress, they don't get squat, other than appropriating funds (which never, never are opposed because "not supporting the troops" is a political death sentence.)
Does the Pentagon control the White House? Or vice versa? 
Seems the US don't think so. China is the pivot and war is coming with Taiwan being the hot spot.
: But after you're done sending weapons to Israel can you give me some too?
: Nope, I plan to go bully China next.
The US must be intentionally sandbagging then. There is no reason the US military, of all organizations on earth, should have any problem moving vast amounts of war material around the globe.
And when the war first started, they was little delay on sending aid, too. Why would there be a bunch of bureaucratic red tape getting in the way now? Frick all that overhead, just put it on a darn ship and send it.
I mean, we failed to move out of Afghanistan effectively despite a year's warning. We pulled out the troops last second, leaving everyone else and all the equipment high and dry.
I think this shows that our military leadership is woefully incompetent right now, either because of red tape or because of extreme stupidity. I don't think they are sandbagging aid.
The US military cold be incompetent - but not because of what happened in Afghanistan. The US went there with the intent to create a new Afghanistan and much of the equipment was to maintain that. What was left in the country was mostly because of practicality and cost, or already given to the Afghan government - although still arguably wasteful.
This particular problem in Ukraine has less to do with military competence and more to do with sand-bagging, or red tape, from bureaucracy.
I guess you could say that could be interpreted as incompetence. I would consider someone mailing a bullet on friday when they should've sent it on monday but got lazy as incompetence. And someone wanting to mail a bullet on monday but can't until friday because contract changes, procurement, or a politician as red tape.
The issue isn't the equipment that would have cost more to ship home than to write off, it was the fact that a small presence could have safeguarded against a resurgent taliban, once it became apparent they were not honoring their part of the deal, and mainly the fact that we pulled out so fast that we left 10s of thousands of interpreters and "collaborators" behind to be murdered. Yes, Afghanistan failed when karzai was chosen and inadvertently overly favored by the us for too long, but the people that were left to fall prey to taliban retribution is the national shame that we carry. But honestly, only a small number of troops could have held off a taliban government being re established, biden and Trump just really wanted entirely out.
Don't feel the least bit of shame. A country that can't prop it self up after 2 decades is their own problem.
: You know what? I'm sick of this shit and I'm leaving. The Taliban can have all the equipment for all I care, unlike you they earned it I guess.
: Wait, America, please!
: Gib America's weapons!
They don't have any logistics problems supplying Israel though.
No 
At least there is no parts supply chain to keep those vehicles and such running well. Much of it was disabled before leaving
Now the equipment left by the ANA? Most was likely not disabled.
Imo the only thing it shows is that the pull out should have been properly negotiated and prepared for by the person who negotiated it. It also shows the US will still honor it's agreements.
Who's to blame for the embarrassing Afghanistan pull out? Trump or Biden? 
Israel, they have used up all the US's missile interceptors, artillery shells, etc for their greater Israel campaign.
Like fighting a war with somebody else's weapons is a bad thing 
The West has proven itself to be both unwilling and unprepared to respond appropriately to the threat posed by Russia and Putin has been able to run rings around both the US and the EU. Will the larger NATO partners actually defend smaller states like the Baltic States with more than words if and when Russia decides that it's time to chance its arm.
I keep seeing this take, but I was actually impressed at how fast NATO reacted to this war despite owning Ukraine nothing. If anything it proved that if NATO is willing to go this far out for a non-NATO country then it's willing to rain heck for an actual member 
If the Ukraine soldiers arent trained for all the new weapons. Its a waste to send them now. Just like the F16 fighters they are getting. It takes time to train personel to maintain and fly those things.
Which equipment ? It's been 2 years, they have been trained on most pledged equipment.
: We trained you to fight in modern planes, what more do you want?
: The actual planes too?
: Oh yea sure, just give us another year or so! We promise!
(we don't have a NATO marsey unfortunately 
)
Funny that you mentioned it. USA also restricted the number of Ukrainian pilots it trained. https://kyivindependent.com/delays-to-f-16-training-ukrainian-mp-says/
That's a very old article and misleading. The US didn't 'restrict' Ukrainians from training. The US didn't have slots in the foreign pilot training programs because they are booked far in advance by other nations. Also Ukraine did not have enough English fluent pilots advanced enough to go straight into F-16 training. The training is only done in English.
Therefore, the US opened another F-16 training program in Romania to accommodate more pilots and they began training Ukrainian pilots from scratch. Training from scratch adds an extra year onto the training. But there weren't any more Ukrainian candidates that could start at the B-Course level, which is the course where you start actually flying the F-16.
: Right, look what we're gonna do. You'll train alongside one of your neighbours.
: Sure! Do we get more american soldiers in our country is we do this?
: You'll have to pay for all of this...
: No problem! I'll mooch the money back from the EU at some point.
: But what about the actual planes?
Because the pipeline is already tight as most us allies train their fighter pilots in the us. I mean I take your point, but when you state it like that it sounds like some sabotage campaign.
: We can train them too now! EU gib money!
: Really?
: It's for the safety of us all!
The pattern I noticed is the entire war effort is dependant on US and Europe doesn't care
US gives guns, Europe gives money. US aid is govt funding to buy stuff from US-based companies to then send to Ukraine. If the US govt pledges weapon packages in the form of pledge to buy from local aka US suppliers, but the guns do not end up in Ukraine, how is this Europe's problem?
The clearly end up in Ukraine, that list of what's been delivered by the US is massive. Something your country can't say.
Unpopular opinion - these delays exist for the same reason the Justice Department has done frick-all about domestic terrorism and Republican sedition for four years. Biden is a gutless do-nothing kitty that is soft on real crime that threatens our national security and that of our would-be allies. He is so old, feeble, senile, and out of touch he won't lift a finger to challenge those who are attacking our democracy and sandbagging/obstructing aid to Ukraine.
Our only hope is that Harris successfully stops the steal, fires Garland, rolls heads at the corrupt DOJ, FBI, and Pentagon and starts the real work of purging Federal power structures of traitors who have for too long aligned with Trump, Putin and other agents actively destroying our country.
Kamala will save America! 
I wish my country just surrendered and gave green corridor for Russia to attack Europe. All we get is words of encouragement and pressure to lower our conscription age to send more of our men to die. I just read that North Korea handed over to Russia 6 million shells. FRICK THIS SHIT.
I live close to the frontline. I am so fking tired. My life was good. Better than most americans and europeans. Living standards were pretty high. I refuse to be a refugee, life in europe is a downgrade. I think we chose wrong allies. North Korea and Iran have no problems delivering what's needed.
You can always surrender
In-depth breakdown of the EU/US contribution 
This shit is just getting pathetic. Has been pathetic.
Frick the GOP, frick the Putin sycophants, frick the authoritarian enablers stealing Ukrainian lives for votes.
Does he know that Biden is president? 
Can supply the genocidal israelis but not Ukraine. This is deliberate and if Ukraine falls then NATO is done. Who is going to trust the Americans and I guarantee every NATO country, except maybe Canada, will drop out. America will be isolated and the world will be at war. I'm not keen in dying in atomic hellfire and I hope the Americans get their heads out of their asses and are honest to their word for once.
The US maintains stockpiles in Israel.
Lol what? Ukraine is not part of NATO, so Ukraine falling isn't going to affect it.
You can't help this non-NATO country! You need to help this other non-NATO country or NATO is finished! 
Meanwhile, another 100 billion to Israel!
: Problem?
England has given over 1.6 BILLION, and a lot of that money has been misplaced according to Ukraine
Hmm. Lies.
Google it also you've got a few weird things on your profile libertarian
Look, copious amounts of alcohol is a human right, chud 
Wrong! They should have much more by now!
Probably using those funds for some other shady shit
This article is about military equipment pledged but not delivered, not funds.
Like an eastern european country couldn't find a way to do shady shit with equipment. This is an insult at this point! 
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Yes they did dumbass
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THEY LITERALLY DIDN'T
ONE OF THE MOST CELEBRATED POETS IN MEXICAN HISTORY WAS LITERALLY AN AZTEC EMPEROR WHO DIED BEFORE HERNAN CORTEZ WAS EVEN BORN AND THE ONLY REASON WE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HIM IS BECAUSE THE HARD-WORKING AMERICANS WERE TISTIC ABOUT WRITING EVERYTHING DOWN, AND WHILE SOME BOOKS AND MANUSCRIPTS WERE BURNED, THE REASON WAS BECAUSE OF THE PAPER BEING "DEMONIC/SATANIC" RATHER THAN OBJECTION TOO ITS CONTENTS, WHICH WERE ALMOST ALWAYS TRANSCRIBED
I LOVE SUCKING PEEPEE
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Dude the Spanish literally destroyed every Library. How would they know whats "Satanic" and whats a great poem.
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MOTHERLOVER THEY LITERALLY DIDN'T
BECAUSE INJUN R-SLURS WOULD TELL THEM THAT THEY BLESSED THE PAPER THEY USED WITH SPIRITS AND THEIR GODS AND TOO THE CATHOLIC SPANIARDS THAT MAKES IT DEMONIC, AND FOR THE MOST PART, IT WAS ALL WRITTEN DOWN OR COPIED BEFORE IT WAS BURNED.
ALSO, THE AZTECS DIDN'T HAVE WRITING, NOR DID MOST CULTURES IN MESOAMERICA. ONLY THE MAYANS HAD ACTUAL WRITING. AND AFTER THE SPANISH ARRIVED, ALL LANGUAGES GOT WRITING
I LOVE SUCKING PEEPEE
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The Spanish literally bragged about burning books.
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I LOVE SUCKING PEEPEE
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I CAN'T PING ! LATINX BECAUSE CHAPOSE ATE ALL MY COINS
I LOVE SUCKING PEEPEE
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!latinx
Here you go serfboy. Two days late, but I support your fight against historical misinformation.
Also, why tf is
@Chapose the German-Japaneese the head of Latinx?
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Also half of !latinx are germans anyway.
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They did?
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I can tell from your speech that you're Mexican.
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Because you're Indian right
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That seems a bit hyperbolic, no? We can't know today how many Pre-Columbia's codices existed, but most theorise it was quite a bit more than what was copied. Also, Spanish misunderstandings or propaganda could still infect the transcribed manuscripts.
It's impossible to truly say whether or not many of the more ancient glyphs were "true writing" (but most think a few of them probably were), but saying most Mesoamericans didn't have writing could lead some to believe they didn't have any ways of recording information. The "painted books" still were able to do everything you'd need true writing for (even what was said in a court case), and logographic elements were mixed with phonetic ones (I'm mainly talking about the Aztecs/Mexihca here, though). There was even a Christian prayer that was completely transcribed into Nahua glyphs phonetically (asides from new words)
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Sure, probably not literally every manuscript and codex got copied down but it was still a very, very substantial number that was and this is not even counting all the non-glyph post-conquest accounts, records, dictionaries, catechisms, literature and even poetry that was written in Spanish, Latin, Nahuatl or other Mesoamerican language.
That's something that would be very hard to quantify as a whole but what we do have doesn't show massive distortions, and post conquest codices and manuscripts were written by both by Spaniards and the Aztecs/Tlaxcalans/Maya/Puerapecha/Otomi/Zapotec/etc. and even the first generation of mestizos so any potential bias between groups is able to be measured. We can even see how accounts in the manuscripts can be different among different Mesoamerican groups as non-Mexica voices from non-Mexica and/or subject cities show differences in accounts compared to the mainstream established histories of the Mexicas themselves.
And we do know native authors were able to contradict official Spanish accounts as well as there are codices which were made in order to contest the claims of certain conquistadors, administrators or encomenderos and to record abuses at their hands.
Yeah, I wasn't intentionally ignoring that they didn't any method of recording information that is a
moment on my part. But tingly the Mayan languages are considered to be full fledge written languages with logographic and even syllabic scripts, the vast majority/rest are considered to be proto-writing at most (including the Mexica/Aztec) barring some bicultural Mayan-Zapotec fringe areas or possibly some ancient Oto-Managuean language from around the time or shortly after the Olmecs (which is the pre-Colombian language they were referencing in National Treasure 2 btw.)
Also, while Nahuatl glyphs were considered to have phonetic elements, I don't think they were considered to be logographic and instead were pictographic by most experts, though tbf that is very blurred line. It is also important to note that these were often supposed to be supplementary or complementary materials for oral record keepers, which is not too dissimilar to how many medieval and ancient literate cultures also practiced their (true) writing. It was considered to be more common than not to read out loud as you read it with people who didn't, like St. Augustine (iirc), were often considered weird.
I think that was rather common, priests and friars were very proactive in writing prayers and catechisms in the native languages of the people they were serving, with some of the only records we have of some now extinct languages in Northern Mexico and the Southwestern (and some parts of the Southern (eg Florida)) US being the prayers and dictionaries those missionaries had created. It's part of the reason why the Lord's Prayer is considered one of the standards, along with the UN Declaration of Human Rights, as sample/example texts for languages and comparing.
Even the first and, potentially, official account of the Marian apparition of Our Lady of Guadeloupe was written in Nahuatl, being commissioned or at least supported by the Bishop of Mexico.
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Classic Sphereserf heyahoya/ !linguistics comment.
It's the same over here in the Philippines but a few hundred years later (and with mostly Mexican priests rather than Spanish by then); friars were the original anthropologists and wrote extensive ethnographies of the various indigenous peoples in order to better understand them in their efforts to evangelize. Accuracy was important because the texts were being used to prepare other missionaries and the "bias" is consistent and easy enough to read through.
FUN FACT FROM ONE SUCH ETHNOGRAPHY: The Cebuanos invented the "prince albert" piercing. Men wore metallic ribbed peepee extensions that they fixed to themselves through a bar. For some reason !Catholics priests were not a fan of the loincloth and peepee extender look.
The practice goes back further, here's a random blog you can read about it on.
I kept meaning to do an OP about this !pinoypride social convention but I'm lazy so I'll just drop this here. Imagine getting lead poisoning from your peepee piercing.
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But then again I've read about missionaries and explorers to other places in the Indo-pacific like Papua and this is pretty tame by comparison.
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!followers a few of you aren't in those pings and you all need to hear about this.
Don't get any ideas 
@QuadNarca. 
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It's cool when it happens, but retroactively finding those in the sea of I-don't-get-it's seems like challange.
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Maybe if you made comments that were easier to understand he would get it?
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Throughout human history there is a drive to mutilate our peepeees and that seems really weird.
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Why didn't you ping me?
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I didn't know you wanted to be pinged
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Yes there are quite a few accounts, records, etc… that were written - but out of the probable thousands upon thousands of codices all over Mesoamerica that covered maths, engineering, cartography, history, military, etc… the majority were not copied.
I was more so talking about the original copies of the codices; which were overseen by the Spaniards, and thus could have been altered (but that's just something to always keep in mind, anyways) rather than every post-conquest manuscript. The main issue that I had was you seemingly claiming most if not all codices had survived by being copied.
All true; but, I know all those writing systems are usually considered to be proto writing, but in the case of the Mexihca (and other Nahua), it's believed to be a descendant of systems going all the way back to Teotihuacan, and ultimately the Olmec. So calling it proto writing is a bit iffy, but it's not actually definitive it went back all that way, so
Honestly, this part isn't really needed, but I'm pretty sure actually using the Nahua glyphs completely phonetically like this was not a common practice by the priests and friars, learning Nahuatl (and other languages) sure, but not this. I just used it as an example to show those glyphs could be used like a true writing system.
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I'm not being facetious when I'm saying that a very large percentage, and I would say the majority of in regards to the information they contained, had been preserved whether through actual Nahuatl/Mesoamerican pictographic and/or mixed codices (Google says any where from 500 to the thousands have survived from the colonial era to modern day) or "normal" manuscripts in the Spanish/European manner, by both Spaniards and natives like I previously said. And in the case that almost every cites about the Spaniards destroying Mesoamerican codices, Diego de Landa in the Yucatan with Maya books, which was against royal protocol as he did so under the authority of the Inquisition despite Indians being exempt from its jurisdiction, had everything copied before he it burned and this highly recorded as almost every Mayanologist has at least once cited a primary source that was commissioned originally by de Landa as he recorded so much information about the Maya and their culture. This also doesn't count the original creations and records created by the Spanish that didn't exist before hand, with the Spaniards making sure to go out of their way to copy stuff about the very exact subjects you just mentioned and more from the nobles and experts to folk wisdom and knowledge from commoners, which the latter was extremely lacking in before the conquest.
So yeah, while I concede that while direct copies (ie closely replicating it) of what was destroyed is a minority, I still think (and I might be moving the goal posts here with so sorry
) the substance and information of what they contained has largely survived and arguably maybe even more was added as the Spaniards wrote down the oral knowledge the oral record keepers and historians had as well as what commoners knew which would have been essential information for recording Mesoamerican history that might have been otherwise lost for modern day audiences which is always a risk with oral records as what (kinda) happened with the Inca quipu which was highly dependent on the oral side to retain information and the reason why know so little. So the Spaniards are partially the reason for why we have a recorded history/protohistory for at least a hundred years, if not more, in most areas of Latin America prior to the conquests and can read poems by people like Nezahualcoyotl.
Iirc the Olmec scripts that approached true rather than proto writing were in the very southern parts of the cultural area and towards the later era of their culture so they were only inherited by the cultures closer towards the Isthmus like the Zapotec and the Maya, or that they were merely forgotten about and was a linguistic "dead end"
Yeah maybe not in a completely phonetic manner like the one you showed but priests and friars did write a lot of stuff with glyphs
Kinda related but did you know that a large number of modern day Mexican coat of arms (for towns, cities, municipalities, states, etc.) use phonetic glyphs in them? Like it's used almost every in the country but it's mostly found in Edomex and Puebla.
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That's a lot more reasonable than my initial interpretation of what you said; however, I still don't completely agree with you. The 500 to a thousand manuscripts don't seem to hold up the estimated amounts in the libraries of Mexihco-Tenochtitlan alone, but not all have survived - and that's just the glyph/glyphic infused ones, to be fair to you.
Things like taxes, (most) maps, a lot of medical practice of plants (mainly the fact that they catalogued their botanical gardens to see what certain plants did, and even where they could and could not grow in certain cases), most mathematical equations they knew of, details on trade networks (only speculation that they wrote it down, but many other civilisations did, at least to a certain extent), perhaps even plans on how they constructed certain buildings (especially considering it was a planned city [taking inspiration from Teotihuacan], they might have made maps on how it was planned), who knows; maybe even more details about the zoo complex. We don't even actually know where or how many libraries there were, just that there were multiple. Same goes with a lot of things, like the specifics of most battles (yes, there are a fair few with some pretty specific details [even if there was probably a lot of Mexihca propaganda in said details], but even those ones are lacking next to so many other battles in Afro-Eurasia, it seems likely we'd have way more details about battles if the literature had survived [again, with a lot of propaganda though]), and of course there are many uncertainties, like the all the territory truly controlled by the Aztecs, which does happen with a lot of empires, but in the case of the Mexihca it really feels like we'd have more had most of the manuscripts not been destroyed. In the legal system, and how they governed there are also a lot of contradictions and uncertainties (like you said, many later writers did correct others, and we can try to see what is most reasonable, but it still feels like had the libraries been preserved, we'd know more).
We're very lucky so many Spaniards, Mestizos and Natives either copied original pieces, wrote down oral history or catalogued information, but we're definitely missing more information than we've gained (or at least, as much information as we've gained; although, I'm willing to bet thing like poems and oral history would have been written down eventually anyways).
Yeah, I just meant proto writing feels weird when it's based off (even if not directly) other systems going back millennia, but I agree that it wasn't a true writing system either, just wanted to show that the proto writing label undermines its uses (even having the capability of being used completely phonetically).
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