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Shin Bet: We officially agree with everything Redactor ever said :marseythumbsup:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/shin-bet-probe-oct-7-would-have-been-prevented-if-wed-acted-differently/

I'm exaggerating a bit, but in their internal review of what went wrong on Oct 7 they hit on a number of crucial points:

The Shin Bet's focus was on foiling terror attacks, and its methods were not applicable to an enemy that acted like an army.

I've been trying to drill this into the heads of you tards for years. Terrorism doesn't mean "anything I don't like". It can be used by the weak or the strong, the bad or the good. Look at the Reinhard Heydrich assassination. That was done by a superpower and it's not something I'm going to shed any tears over. Terrorism is a political/military tactic that can be used by all kinds of organizations . (And if you believe I'm being a pinko, my thinking is heavily influenced by Trinquier here, one of the leading chud theorists of all time. PDF link to his very insightful if batshit insane book.)

Terrorism is an action someone performs, it's not an intrinsic part of their nature as a person. They can flip back and forth between terrorism and conventional warfare. So you have to be cautious about simply labeling someone merely a terrorist and you have to be extremely cautious about labeling an organization a "terrorist organization". It leads to complacency. You start thinking of these guys like they're the Baader-Meinhoff gang or the Japanese Red Army or some fringe psychos who might shoot up an airline terminal or hijack a plane.

I think dismissing Hamas as a mere "terrorist" organization is one of the main reasons they were underestimated, just as Obama famously called ISIS the "JV team" before it turned out they actually had an army of thousands.

An unclear division of responsibility between the IDF and Shin Bet on which organization should provide a warning for war, amid a change of Hamas from a terror group to a full military force. ... The Shin Bet had an "incorrect understanding" of the strength of the Israeli border barrier with Gaza and the IDF's ability to respond.

Bystander effect. It happens in the military too. A lot. You assume the other unit understands this is supposed to be their responsibility.

The assessment was that Hamas was trying to heat up the West Bank and was not interested in doing so in the Gaza Strip. ... Hamas's believed intentions were not challenged enough during assessments.

Wishful thinking based on what you assume the enemy's intentions are, not what their capabilities are.

Relatively little intelligence, including as a result of limited freedom of action in the Gaza Strip, especially independently by the Shin Bet. The Shin Bet said that the IDF's botched 2018 intelligence operation in Khan Younis made it more difficult to recruit human intelligence sources in Gaza.

This is especially puzzling given how thoroughly they infiltrated Hezbollah. One of the reasons I think they probably got to Hezbollah through Iranian dissidents.

How Hamas was able to build up its forces... The flow of money from Qatar to Gaza and its delivery to Hamas's military wing.

Thanks Bibi. :marseyclapping:

The catalysts to Hamas's decision to carry out the onslaught included the cumulative weight of Israeli violations on the Temple Mount, the attitude toward Palestinian prisoners

Yeah, not intentionally trying to piss people off for no reason probably would have helped.

Summary: In my opinion it's pretty that the attempts to smear this disaster on Unit 8200 and Shin Bet are classic of just running over the glowBIPOC. Who are the best, most selfless Americans but also the most hated by everyone? The CIA and FBI. You think it's a coincidence they just happen to be the two organizations that can't defend themselves in the press? The IDF and the politicians are dumping all the blame on this being an "intelligence failure" when it was really a colossal policy failure to pour so many troops into the West Bank and leave so few in the south.

!historychads

43
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Uncle Redactor. What is your opinion on the future of Israel. Will Israel continue to be supported by America for the next 30 years. Will Israel successfully annex the entirety of Gaza? Will Israel survive as a nation in the middle East or degenerate further as more time passes?

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First of all, Israel's military superiority over everyone in the region is pretty well assured for decades to come. I often point out that the IDF is not as good as popular opinion believes or that the Arabs can be surprisingly tough fighters, but let's not kid ourselves here. Israel remains the dominant military power in the region. Also the nuclear weapons help.

Will Israel continue to be supported by America for the next 30 years.

I doubt it. This has more to do with generational shifts in America than anything they do. My mom spent most of her life thinking they were just wonderful people who were terribly oppressed because she saw Exodus when she was a little girl. That's all you had to do to convince people back then, is make a movie and bias the news coverage a little. (Also the Palestinians doing the dumbest fricking possible things for PR at every opportunity. Shooting up a school bus. Wow. :marseyclapping:)

Anyway, I'm digressing. My point is that they fooled most old boomers back then, but it won't work on the younger generation. It's not even a matter of who is right or wrong. Look at South Korea. They've got an elderly population who remember the war who are like 95% pro-US, a middle-aged population who blame the US for everything to rebel against their parents, and a young population who love the US to rebel against their parents. So with Israel, I expect that no matter what happens they're going to be hated by lots of Americans just to be contrarian.

Will Israel successfully annex the entirety of Gaza?

They can just shut off the food and water (as they're doing right now). They effectively control it already except for the tunnels. And those guys can't hold out in the tunnels for long. The only reason the war has gone on this long is that a certain somebody doesn't want it to end.

The real question is what happens to the population there. If you know me (and apparently none of you r-slurred cute twinks do) I'm fairly sympathetic to the Israeli position back in my boomer times and and I don't toss around the G-word, but it's pretty clear that post-Oct7 the Israeli public just wants them all killed. My guess is they'll be deported to the West Bank, excuse me, "Judea and Samaria" :marseylaugh:. I dunno. :marseyshrug:

Will Israel survive as a nation in the middle East or degenerate further as more time passes?

This might seem like a lazy comparison, but I expect it will be like South Africa. They've won militarily. They totally dominate the Palestinians. They'll (officially) annex the West Bank soon. They can keep the Palestinians in their neighborhoods at night in barbed wire enclosures. People don't like to admit this to themselves, but this is actually a viable way of running a society. Inefficient but it can work for a long time with the support of outside powers. I expect this situation to remain the same for the next 30 years. Beyond that, even my crystal ball becomes cloudy.

!historychads Redactor prophecy that you can check me against and call me an r-slur when I prove to be wrong. :ma#rseyfortuneteller:

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!remindme 30 years

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I will be messaging you on 08.03.2055, 14:03 UTC to remind you of this comment

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she saw Exodus

Love or hate the jews, the theme from that movie goes extremely hard:

but its whatever

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The point I would like to focus on in your analysis is the bit about the Israeli public being pro-Genocide now. Generally it is considered a poisoned society that is in favor of genocide across all strata of society. Taking this into account, do you believe Israel has been poisoned irreversibly in a manner that will be a net loss to them across the generations or will the love for genocide one day just go away? Would Israel remember peace or have they embraced violence and bloodshed and extermination of lesser races till the day the nation state ceases to exist? Generally historically a population who is bloodthirsty only stops being bloodthirsty through a time of extreme prosperity lasting generations or through being beaten so bad they develop a structural malaise which makes them only react in fear if at all, with the loss of will, growth, ambition.

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I think they're (understandably) extremely butthurt about October 7 right now. I don't think they want to kill all the Palestinians because they like genocide, it's because they've pissed off at the atrocities done to them (not just this but in the Second Intifada).

As for the long term... I feel like I'm being baited. :marseysmughipskorean:

But it doesn't matter because I can answer honestly. Israel isn't all about extreme bloodshed and genocide and stuff. There's psychos who talk about Amalekites and stuff (like Bibi for example) but that's not core to their identity. They do have a problem of a settler mentality, where they feel like they always have to be in some kind of low-level warfare. That's suited them well because, let's face it, they've always been in some kind of low-level warfare. The problem is, at some point you've got to admit that you've won and accept peace. My hope is eventually they'll do that. Unfortunately there's the other path of the Ben-Gvirs and such where they don't want Intel and world trade, they want to be another tribe of Arab psychos on their own hill. Who will win?

:marseyshrug:

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I think they will go full arab Psycho. It is just something about the location that pulls you in.

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The sons of Abraham aren't so far apart after all. :marseysmug2:

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what does that mean? Aren't the peaceful westerners also from Abrahamic faiths?

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You gotta know your biblical genetics.

Although like so much on wikipedia this seems to have been totally rewritten recently to eliminate any direct references to Josephus. :marseyfacepalm:

Anyway the point is that according to tradition, Abraham had two sons. One the progenitor of the Jews and the other of the Arabs. So they're the most closely related people on the Earth.

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Wouldn't this only be in the Islamic holy texts because Islam was formed long after Christianity and Judaism?

I have to go now. Good night. Thanks for the fun conversation. Be well.

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All Hamas has to do to keep the hate training going was take a bunch of hostages, r*pe them, and then kill them while parading their bodies around. It's fantastic PR that keep that US money flowing for more than 30 years.

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Not sure where you're going with this. You're saying they were controlled by Israel the whole time?

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I doubt it. This has more to do with generational shifts in America than anything they do. My mom spent most of her life thinking they were just wonderful people who were terribly oppressed because she saw Exodus when she was a little girl. That's all you had to do to convince people back then, is make a movie and bias the news coverage a little. (Also the Palestinians doing the dumbest fricking possible things for PR at every opportunity. Shooting up a school bus. Wow. :marseyclapping:)

>And what did Hamas do in the past 2 years that leaves an imprint on the Americans' minds?

:marseyhmm:

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Well it sure didnt involve involve Eva Marie Saint

Your theory requires the cooperation of:

  • The DFLP (communists) in one massacre.

  • The PFLP (Arab nationalists) in another one.

  • Otto Preminger

  • the entire Israeli media

  • Shin Bet

At this point you might as well be blaming aliens

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im literally screaming, Youre not making much sense

:marseygiveup:

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I think were talking over each other, and Im not saying Hamas didnt do literally anything wrong, I cant tell if youre saying that Israel somehow made them do literally all this bad stuff, and Because thats the level of psycho I deal with here on an hourly basis

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Will Israel continue to be supported by America for the next 30 years.

I doubt it. This has more to do with generational shifts in America than anything they do. My mom spent most of her life thinking they were just wonderful people who were terribly oppressed because she saw Exodus when she was a little girl. That's all you had to do to convince people back then, is make a movie and bias the news coverage a little. (Also the Palestinians doing the dumbest fricking possible things for PR at every opportunity. Shooting up a school bus. Wow. :marseyclapping:)

im literally screaming, If thats literally all it takes, then what Hamas did will encourage Americans to support Israel for way more than 30 years

omg! :marseyshrug:

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Who are the best, most selfless Americans but also the most hated by everyone? The CIA and FBI.

Factcheck: This claim has been confirmed as correct by experts.

Experts say that it's actually wiggers

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They must make up half the DEA.

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Not sure if this is the same report, but there was one that said Hamas had this plan all the way back to the late 2010's, and had planned to carry it out twice but aborted. :marseysal: breeds complacency.

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I haven't heard that one but it's totally believable. That's what the Egyptians did before 1973. They practiced crossing the canal over and over until one day it wasn't a practice anymore.

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Then, the :marseyflagsyriapat: decided to be a :marseykarenlove::marseykarenlove::marseykarenlove: and ruin Masr's plans to actually win a war against the :parrotisraelpat:, for once

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It's one of Israel's greatest advantages: Every time the Arabs tried to unite against them they'd end up screwing each other over somehow.

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Or, like just simply the Syrian menace and like just let either the Masrtards or the Transjordies to actually fight, while the :marseyturkroach: turns Syria totally into its playground but go off

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Possibly, and But in my boomer time CIA reports they said that Turkey will absolutely not get involved because they know theyll get blamed for everything and thats the tea, sis

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>Terrorism doesn't mean "anything I don't like"

https://media.tenor.com/yssbr-JwvCQAAAAx/ponke-ponkesol.webp

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Oh great, now Shin Bet wants to suck my peepee?!

:marseyeyeroll:

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Isrealis won all wars against the arabs, but what people don't realize is that they didn't win because the are in any way competent but because the arabs are giga incompetent.

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Israelis won because they always outnumbered them. Because the Arabs were too busy fighting each other.

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>Because the Arabs were too busy fighting each other

Should be hammered into the skull of every uni student, bystander, and town lunatic who wants to dabble into MidEast affairs. From the start, the Arabs have fought over which idea (Pan-Arab, Communist, Regionalist, Islamist, Monarchist, Vanilla Nationalism) will emerge triumphant and they are still fighting about it to this day

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Arabs are also gay and r-slurred so they can't fight good

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Most of the time, but they have their moments. The Egyptians crossing the canal. The Syrians taking Mt. Hermon. The Jordanians have always been pretty good.

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This is all Hasbara. The "Palestinians" who did the attack on 10/7 were IDF in disguise. Jews murdered and r*ped Jews so America would let them conduct a genocide in Gaza. Zionists want the land; same as always. Jews are Nazis and Death to America.

:#speechbubble:.

:marseylibleft: :chadleftoid: :ramonajak: :chadlibleft:

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This is especially puzzling given how thoroughly they infiltrated Hezbollah. One of the reasons I think they probably got to Hezbollah through Iranian dissidents.

It's almost certainly the case. Iran has to be one of the most glowie riddled nations in the world. They've been on the receiving end of some of the biggest intelligence dunks ever. Even Stuxnet had to be manually transported into Iranian servers by someone.

Anyways, I think your point about Hamas being underestimated is wrong. The attack had such little value strategically that it's pretty reasonable that the Shin Bet didn't see it coming. Using a mass attack to take hostages and hide them in Gaza is batshit insane. Hamas knew at this point the Israeli doctrine included being okay with bombing their own hostages. They knew that Lebanon, Egypt, Iran, and other allies weren't ready. They knew that there was an American election coming up the next year. It was such a stupid plan that Israel ended up overestimating Hamas' competence here.

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Iran has to be one of the most glowie riddled nations in the world.

They have everything you need for intrigue. Lots of very motivated people (if you ever look into their eyes when they're thinking about the old country you know what I mean), high IQ in a slightly neurodivergent way, they're extremely into secrecy, they won't forgive it if you wrong their family, and everyone has a grudge against someone else.

Camus said something like: "Some people prefer lying to keeping secrets. Some prefer keeping secrets to lying. Some like both lies and secrets."

Goddarn I need an Iranian woman in my life. :marseyinshallah:

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That's why you gotta keep in mind your enemy's capabilities, not just try to guess their intentions. Because their intentions might be incredibly r-slurred and self-defeating.

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They can flip back and forth between terrorism and conventional warfare.

They usually can't flip to conventional because they lack the equipment and training. In rare cases, they can.

:marseyshrug:

But with Hamas, it only lasted a short while until they retreated into their tunnels and reverted back to unconventional warfare.

:marseyshru!g:

It's still rare.

The most "conventional" they got was with a flotilla of lawnmower helicopters while storming a few poorly defended villages (through tunnels or what not), taking hostages, and then running away.

It's not really conventional.

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They usually can't flip to conventional because they lack the equipment and training. In rare cases, they can.

There's plenty from my boomer times. Fatah, the PFLP, the Tamil Tigers, the FLN in Algeria. Groups that we normally associate with terrorism but could put (admittedly really shitty) armies into the field. I mean heck, you could even put the Viet Cong or the Afghan Mujahideen into that category.

But with Hamas, it only lasted a short while until they retreated into their tunnels and reverted back to unconventional warfare.

Yes, trying to take on one of the top 10 military powers in the world wasn't going to last long.

The most "conventional" they got was with a flotilla of lawnmower helicopters

I'm guessing they were using ATGMs quite a bit, at least in the first couple days. But that's mostly just me guessing based on how Hezbollah operates.

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Idk man feels :marseyvapecrying: like people have been saying this stuff for over a year now

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Which stuff, my side or theirs? :marseysmughipskorean:

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That you were right :marseygasden: about everything :vegetakneel:

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can you do more Star Trek effortposts instead.

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Sure. What direction do you want me to go? One of my earliest memories was reading the Star Trek Starfleet Technical Manual and my knowledge kind of trails off during DS9.

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Any fun drama like the TNG stuff you talked about.

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Wait, wtf are you talking about? I've only made 19 posts references Trek.

Comments... 292... OMFG... :marseysweating:

Gimme a second to see what ground I've covered.

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I was thinking when you were just describing the drama with S1 TNG and how Roddenberry had completely different ideas how it was going to work.

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(And tbqh I'd already heard all this before on Mark Altman's podcast.) :marseynerd2:

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I heard it repeated on Red Letter Media.

Did you watch their Star Trek videos?

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I watched their trivia ones and I would have kicked... well, I wouldn't have cleaned house like on real Jeopardy but I could have kept pace with Mike. I can't remember, what others did they do?

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Watch Chaos on the Bridge for that.

Really really good documentary. Even if you don't care about Star Trek, everyone should watch that because it's so dramatic. I've seen it multiple times.

Worth it just for the part where David Gerrold talks about pushing a guy out a window.

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how do you feel about section 21?

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It's the total antithesis of what Star Trek is all about. This might be difficult for you kids to understand, but in the early 1960s (when the Star Trek concept was formulated) the USA was considered both here and in most of the world to be the Good Guys. Nobody liked the commies, I cannot emphasize enough to you that nobody liked the commies. They were extremely drab, boring, uncool, brutal, buttholes who you did not want around. Compared to that, the Americans were the ones who liberated you from the Nazis/Japs. And the Americans had a reputation for honesty, certainly compared to the Soviets and more importantly the British who we were replacing. We didn't fly around the seas stealing dilithium crystals oil like the British and French did, we were interested in honest trade and cultural exchange.

All of that started to change during the Vietnam War, which happened to be exactly when the show was on in the late 1960s.

But at the time the show was made, the attitude was that hey, we're a heck of a lot better than the Klingons Russians and Chinese and if we gotta hardball sometimes, that's just how life goes. But we keep our moral core. And we kept it through... well right about 2025.

Now of course we weren't really that perfect. That's one of the conceits of Star Trek, that Starfleet might have some rogues but we're the good guys. Of course real life was dirtier than that. But the Section 31 bullshit tries to be so edgy that we're actually just as bad. Well, no, frick that. Starfleet the USA might not have been perfect, but you ask any victims of the Klingons commies in your neighborhood, and I can promise you there's a few, you'll find they were on Captain Kirk's side.

Does that answer your question?

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/17225430325674362.webp

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TL:DR Friendship is magic, not snitching on everypony you see like you're in a Stassi-controlled hellhole.

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Aren't the Klingons the good guys since season 2?

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Season 2 of what? :#marseywut2:

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Star Trek

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I don't feel like you're negotiating with me in good faith. :#marseyspock:

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TDS

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