EFFORTPOST As the war seems to slowly approach it's end, Ukraine and it's online supporters have to reckon with what being a proxy means and that NATO isn't going to come to Ukraine's rescue even after North Korea joins the battle

The last few weeks have been pretty bad for Ukraine unfortunately They finally seem to run out of steam, both in Kursk and their own territories, Trump seems more and more likely to win the election, and Russia is receiving new munition and troops from other countries while they are still fighting alone and need to deal with lots of restrictions from it's allies. NATO starts to show signs of getting bored with the conflict and America clearly wants to focus more on the Middle East than Russia right now. Even the pro-Ukraine twitter accounts are posting less things, and lots of them are either fluff or complaining about Ukraine's allies. And with Vuhledar's fall Ukraine is slowly losing Donetsk too. Tbf Russia isn't doing well either and it's obvious that the war and the sanctions are biting hard and that they too can't keep this up any longer. The war is coming to an end and Ukraine will lose Donbas and Donetsk but will keep the rest of it's country. A resolution that leaves no one happy - both countries destroyed their economy and decimated their population only for both lose the war. NATO is the only winner in this conflict

Even with being in NATO we still depend a lot on Ukraine for protection against Russia since they are a big country and a really good land shield for keeping Russia at a reasonable distance. So since the first signs of Ukraine (and Kamala) faltering have appeared I took a break from slavshit to deal with the reality. Thanks to Israel for offering a lot of very entertaining distractions while I was busy coping and seething But now I'm done going thorough the stages of grief, and just in time! Redditors and twittards are too starting to realize that Ukraine is losing the war. They haven't accepted it fully yet so there will plenty of salt coming in for months now

Emotions don't matter now when there is drama to mine!

Has anyone confirmed North Koreans military are on the ground in the war. Seems like a disinformation campaign so NATO can justify further escaltion.

Everyone is because NATO isn't doing enough and this guy complains about escalation. Redditors weren't happy

1 - How exactly NATO boosting Ukraine?

2 - Ok, lets say NATO somehow boosting Ukraine, where Ukraine going to find new soldiers after 3 years of war and losing many best soldiers?

Western aid not enough to equip 'even 4 out of 14' underarmed brigades needed on the front, Zelensky says

lol "Zelensky says" and maybe read the article again those 14 brigades don't actually exist.

They do exists and they have been trained for counteroffensive in 2023, they just did receive any equipment

Zelensky has been as honest as any head of state enmeshed in an existential war can be expected to be. Your derisive air quotes don't do anything to make you appear to be a knowledgeable or objective onlooker, but I guess you knew that already and just don't care.

Hi Kremlin

Denial is still going strong which means many more drama opportunities in the future

Ukraine has received more than 300 billion dolllars in aid since Russia invaded and almost all of it has been from NATO countries. That's a pretty big boost. If they wanted NATO boots on the ground in the event of an invasion they needed to join NATO instead of choosing to remain neutral.

They did want to join NATO, but you generally can't join NATO with major ongoing territorial disputes

Obviously they wanted to join NATO after they got invaded. That's not how a defensive alliance works though. It's like trying to buy homeowner's insurance after your house already burned down. The whole system would fall apart if no one contributed and everyone just took as much as they need only when they need it.

Bro the world doesn't work like you think it does. I say it without sarcasm or "goal to offend you". The world is divided (zones of influence) and much more dependence.

Reading the history is the key to knowing why everything you can see these times is like that. It's more complicated than it seems to be.

he world works exactly the way we're seeing it work right now.

None of the NATO countries are happy about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. That's why they're sending hundreds of billions of dollars in aid to prop up the Ukrainian war effort and sanctioning Russia to hinder the Russian war effort.

None of the NATO countries are obligated to defend Ukraine though and that's why none of them will take any decisive action that would directly involve them in the war.

Even something like sending ballistic missiles and giving Ukraine the green light to use them to strike military infrastructure inside of Russia hasn't happened, let alone something like putting actual boots on the ground. If Russia had invaded Estonia instead, the US Navy would have sank Russia's Black Sea fleet by now.

I think what he was trying to elude to was that ukraine never decided in a vacuum to not join nato. There have been calls for moving towards nato and the eu since ukraines inception, but russia has been running kgb and shadow warfare on ukraine for decades trying to control them. All this election interference we've been seeing in the west is relatively new by comparison, but russia has been trying to puppeteer ukraine since it's inception, to the point where ukraine has had to have multiple "revolutions" to throw off the shackles their politicians would repeatedly attempt to put on them in driving them towards russia and away from nato and the eu against their will. Yes, ukraine is not in nato, but if russia slaughters it's way through ukraine, multiple more nato member states are now at direct risk and collectively will require much higher defense spending anyway just to fortify a new border with russia where one did not exist previously, let alone the implications on everything else including the black sea, ukraines resources being martialed and exploited solely for a russian war economy, ukraine currently having the strongest army in Europe that's remnants would be turned around to the west after a russian victory. Russia has a fricked perspective, not grounded in reality, to the point where the decision maker(s) really thought the Ukrainians were going to welcome the russian army as liberators. Then there're the implications on allowing russias brutal methods of rewriting ethnic and national identities of the conquered, sporadic use of gas warfare and nuclear blackmail, using food as a weapon for imperial growth, all allowed to succeed. 300b is not a lot if you look at collective defense spending either. If we treat it as such and use it as a reason to stop support, then we either signal that conquest will be ultimately met with eventual boredom and submission, or all that was needed for a quick victory was more intrusive and insidious shadow warfare predating an even larger and more prepared invasion to achieve a quick fate accompli.

So again, yes, ukraine is not a nato member, but they are as close to being one and an eu member as is possible without full acceptance at this point, and the fall out from the end of the war will directly effect nato security one way or another, potentially aiding to kill the eu as well. The money spent on gwot makes our aid to Ukraine look like a half measure only meant to inconvenience a resurgent and growing russian threat.

Lots of cope

NATO considers organizing a summit where they will issue a strongly worded declaration stating that if russia crosses another red line, they will seriously consider considering some more considerations. That'll show'em!

And people joke about Chinese warnings.

Or russian red lines. Yes, sadly. We're no better.

As far as NATO is concerned we are not at war so we don't need to bother too much

What happened to our leaders? They let the bullies get away with things. Maybe social media messed up every one. I can't recall a solid leader right now. The only that comes to mind is Zelensky.

We are not at war but Zelensky is

Ukraine needs to start twisting arms to get aid at this point. Whats being provided isn't enough and its allies hesitate to provide anything more substantial due to imaginary red lines. No one wants the war brought to the Korean peninsula, so I'd start there.

Ukraine bombing Kim would be very entertaining

We joke, but what's the alternative? Go to war with a nuclear super power?

I don't want to fight in that war, do you?

1938 argument.

No, the whole idea is that if we show russia strength now then we will not have to go to (much bigger) fight later. And we are still in a position where we can do that without sacrificing a single soldier, by mostly giving out stockpiles of obsolete weapons, without restrictions.

ATACMS (without stupid limits), Tomahawks, all the F-16s we have (still cheaper than scraping them as part of F-35 replacement programs). Stupid quantities of legacy Patriots for defense. Ukraine will do the job for us and is willing to sacrifice its soldiers.

And you know what? russia won't do shit about it. There will be just more and more "red lines" and desperate pleas for help from "superpowers" like Iran or North Korea, but, as the world realizes we're serious about it, that will eventually run out too.

The only language russia understands is force. Look at Turkey. As much as I despise Erdogan as a piece of shit, he understands this. Remember what they did in 2015. Somehow, this did not result in a nuclear war.

NATO clearly doesn't want a quick and decisive Ukraine victory and prefers to slowly bleed Russia dry. Potentially it would even try to keep the conflict open far longer than either countries can truly fight, locking them together in a spiralling economic collapse. This will keep Russia busy and less likely to chimp out at an important state

"Considers"🤦🏼‍♂️

It's like they're still not reading the room...

Yeah, unless they are going full send I don't want to hear another fricking word from them. Words words words, meanwhile Ukrainians are dying everyday.

Such is the life of a proxy

They don't have to. The grand sum of frick all is clear to see.

The weapons supplied haven't been sufficient. Ukraine is not allowed to attack useful targets.

NATO wants Russia to collapse, not Ukraine to win.

Yes

I think we all know by now that one of the only ways NATO gets involved is if they come under a direct, focused and sustained attack. I forget if this was NATO or France that said they would intervene if they saw Ukraine start to get overrun but I highly doubt that even then they would intervene.

The purpose of NATO is also to respond if member nations are attacked. I wish NATO would do more, sure, but this is still helpful

While it wasn't a direct attack, multiple drones and missiles have landed on the territory of Romania and Poland, both NATO member nations. I don't even think NATO said anything in either of those incidents. The only country with any balls surprisingly, was Belarus because they shot a drone down.

Really says a lot when Belarus is the one taking action when their airspace is violated.

We actually shot one drone down too recently. We generally ignore them and let them pass over but this one was about to crash in a town or something so we smacked it out of the sky

Maybe because other than the drones in Romania which the investigation was inconclusive, the whole Russian missiles are landing in Poland was PROVEN to be Ukrainian air defense missiles landing in Poland.

Do you have a link the supposed proof?

I for one would be curious to know how an air defense missile ends up in Poland.

And as far as the drones go, it was conclusive that they crashed into Romania. There is no doubt about that.And that has happened multiple times, not just once.

Not only has that happened but you have the dozens of times where Russian aircraft have entered the airspace over the Aleutian islands, which last I checked, belong to the US. You have the Russian jets that were messing with the US drone over the Black Sea, in international waters too.

Point is, NATO should be doing more. Instead, they show themselves to be pretty toothless. All bark and no bite whatsoever. There is no point in having NATO if it doesn't do anything when it is necessary.

are still bitching about those drones btw

Considers just means they haven't had the meeting to officially make the decision yet.

How many years is that going to take? Why aren't plans already in place?

No way in heck I'd trust NATO holding up their end of a M.A.D. scenario. Needs replacing ASAP.

Replace NATO with what?

I support the (European) military industrial complex

Ukraine needs all the support they can get, and they deserve getting it

Speaking of, it was funny seeing some american nationalists go "go get your own defence" and as soon as Europeans try to set up their own instead of relying on USA they're like "Why aren't you buying our equipment?"

"go get your own, as long as its from us" 😁

cant please everyone i guess... i consider it vitally important to be able to repair and replace everything we possibly can, and have enough manufacturing capacity in europe to sustain a full blown conflict, long term, if we end up in one

dont get me wrong, i LOVE american hardware, most of it is pretty great... but we just need the capacity

Exactly. The shortage of munitions in Ukraine should tell you everything that you need to know about the importance of European weapons production. The USA does not make enough missiles and ammunition for even a regional war, much less a global one.

I mean, they probably do. Mass manufacturing has historically been one of the US's greatest strengths in wartime.

But they also didn't exactly send everything they had, and there are compatibility issues between US stockpiles and the (former) Soviet equipment used in Ukraine.

That comes back to your point about European manufacturing, tho - Poland and other former Soviet states are likely already stockpiling and equipped to produce compatible munitions, and I think have been supplying them to Ukraine.

So you seriously think the United States should have sent everything they had? LOL

No? Just that what the US sent isn't representative of what the US has.

Europe finally getting off it's butt and investing in it's military is definitely one of the best parts of this conflict

Well Europe could develop its own sophisticated, self-reliant MIC, but then most of those military innovation secrets are going to end up in Russia's and China's possessions anyway, considering how many officials in Europe are so keen to sell out their countries and all the people they represent for money and alliances with dictators.

LOL Europe has had 3 years to develop and expand it defense manufacturing why hasn't it improved significantly?

EU excels at strangling itself with paperwork

And how exactly did China build up its economy..? Something to do with all those American companies like Apple and Tesla outsourcing high tech production to take advantage of cheap Chinese labour...

What does that have to do with Europe being a playground for Russian and Chinese espionage?

Why would they need to come to Europe for espionage, when American billionaires gave them everything to increase their profit margins...?

You must think companies only exist in the us or something.

It's nice to see redditors defend America for once

THEY NEED TROOPS. Weapons mean frick all of they don't enough men to overwhelm Russia and break through the frontlines

Careful, people dont like reading that, theyre gonna call you a warmonger and tell you to go volunteer instead of discussing it :-)

I agree, theyre fighting for us too, and no matter what reaction that evokes in people, its a pretty clearly visible reality at this point.

Putler is escalating, and were sitting on our asses letting him stretch out any imagined boundary and the war as a whole.

>I agree, theyre fighting for us too

Yes, they are NATO's proxy, and the whole point of a proxy is that they get to fight and die while you watch on from a safe distance

Can we stop with the whole day-late dollar-short approach to this war? As soon as the intel on outside soldiers was known, there should have been an announcement that proceeding would result in limitations being removed from Ukraine. And the follow through when Putin inevitably escalates.

It really does seem the west is weak of will. What the frick have we (the US) been spending all this goddarn money on for the past 80 years if not to defend against this kind of shit?

But America doesn't need to defend itself from anything?

Before you rush on even considering making a decision NATO it's probably worth having a few discussions first and then you can think about maybe holding a vote. Make sure any 'group' decision can be overruled by a country with the power to veto though as it won't be fair otherwise.

Oh actually, it's probably better to have an initial meeting in the first instance just to raise the issue so that everyone comes prepared. Ask Janet in the office to check everyone's calendars to find a time which suits everyone, but if there's no date soon don't worry, Ukraine can wait. They've shown they can be patient.

Actually, it might be worth just sending an email first to warn people that Janet will be in touch. Give them a couple of weeks notice though. Stacey can probably send the email, but she's on leave until next week, don't rush her though, let her settle back in as she'll likely have a few jobs to catch up on.

Just bear in mind its the holiday season coming up too... So if the initial meeting to talk about the proposed discussion to potentially consider a possible decision needs to be delayed until the New Year when everyone is back that's understandable.

Ukraine is not NATo. That's it, that's the answer

I hope they do, it's sad that Western countries care way less about Ukraine now, and I wish the media focused more on Ukraine than the Middle East

Why is that? Because the Ukrainians are white and the Palestinians brown?

Because arabs and now persians trying and failing to exterminate israel since 1948 isn't exactly surprising news anymore, maybe. Sudan, ukraine, yemen, and Myanmar are far more relevant to current affairs than hamas still not willing to release the hostages and swear off future attacks on israel as soon as the idf leaves gaza.

Bonus sandshit

Considers and not doing. Boy you are really making it tough for Russia. So tough I don't know why they would continue.....oh right. We are now at the point of sending mean tweets and emails. Please South Korea. Step up further since it seems NATO the mighty NATO is frozen with fear or something.

Cool, potential new proxy

Yip, that's about right. Everyone is considering this and considering that, hence the reason why Russia has taken a fair bit of Ukranian territory this year. Delay, delay, delay, and like every other time you finally get to a decision, it will be about 6 months too late.

This is how it has and is being played by nato meanwhile Ukraine suffers mightily

Should have considered joining NATO sooner

Can we stop considering shit? Start doing shit.

There has been a lot of considering going on last 3 years.

Considers. Brilliant.

Be in no doubt, we are in the midst of a great betrayal. And we'll all be paying for it a decade or two from now.

What betrayal?

Poised? How about already engaged?

Poised? Poised?

Mate they're balls deep.

🤦🏻‍♂️

Look at the bright side, we'll have the opportunity to how the north korean army fights

One minute we are being told NK troops are in ukraine, then one minute we are told they are on the way , then next we are being told loads have been killed in ukraine

Now we are being told they are poised to enter war , sorry if the troops are there, they have already entered the war

We are starting to see a lot of bullshit flying around atm.

Yes, my reaction was 'they already have and we are still "considering" increasing supply to a starved military fighting our primary enemy for us'.

Give them everything they need.

And now they are starting to lose and have outlived their usefulness to NATO, which is why there's very little reaction to North Korea joining Russia. NATO already got everything it wants from this war

Oh NATO, UN, EU, and the US. As an American, I'm very disappointed in us all.

They can always fight alone if they want

Now Ukraine will fight Russia AND NK alone while brave NATO will keep expressing their deep concern about escalation. Or even worse - like what they did when Russian drones fell on Romanian territory. Everyone just pretended it didn't happen.

LOL "alone" a guess almost a half trillion dollars in aid is worthless? And just a quick FYI drones falling out of the sky doesn't trigger an article 5 and the Romanian, U.S., NATO, and EU investigators found ZERO conclusive evidence that those drones were either Russian or Ukrainian.

Article 5 needs to be triggered by the attacked country, NATO can't randomly react. We don't like drones flying over us but don't consider them a mortal danger to the point of dragging the whole NATO into this war

It's almost like many nations want this war to last for decades. I'm sure it has nothing to do with $ and testing weapons.

Nope, nothing at all

are they going to promise more aid and then not deliver it like they did w the patriot batteries?

or give them like 3 more abrams (10% increase) while NK supplies Russia with 2 million 155mm shells and 10,000 troops?

We're not the only country who delayed the patriot system delivery? At least we sent it eventually

Ukraine is gonna lose buttholes do something so that it retains atleast some good portion of its territories

It's not like Russia can afford another three years of this to capture some other part of Ukraine

NATO doesn't have practical ways to reinforce Ukraine. Zelenskyy said that they needed more weapons and ammunition. However, the US's weapon manufacturing speed is nearing the turtles' walk, so Ukraine urged that the Polish government should give the Ukrainian Army made-in-Korean weapons right now. But...the president of Poland rejected it since he said that the Polish Army needed those weapons to protect borders. He announced "Those weapons were purchased by our Polish citizens'precious taxes, so we don't have any reason to try that" Ukraine must make France and Germany donators of weapons. There's no more option right away.

Over half of all tanks donated to Ukraine came from Poland.

is also still being bitched at for not gifting their new weapons to Ukraine

I really don't get why we haven't supported Ukraine into a crushing defeat for Russia two years ago. What's our endgame?

Not have the country with the largest nuclear weapons stockpiles collapsing while at the same time inflicting as much a damage as possible without putting NATO boots on the ground… it's kinda obvious if you have been paying attention for the past 70 years or so.

It's like we learned something from the Cuban Missile Crisis

After a week we will find out if we'll still have Nato

"Considering"? Fricking do it already. Should've happened 2 years ago.

While NATO considers, Russia kills civilians.

Alliance of Kitties and Strongly Worded Letters, no wonder Russia doesn't take NATO seriously, NATO is afraid to show force when its needed, dictatorial Asian country has joined the invasion of democratic European country shouldn't be this tough to respond to, every restriction must be off and must go all-in.

I'm Pro-NATO but this cowardice is embarrassing the "greatest military alliance the world has seen".

And before anyone decide to bring the usual "easy for you to say when you don't get sent to the frontlines", I'm active military in Finland, I'm amongst the first to be sent when the shit hits the fan, and shit will hit the fan sooner than we would like.

Why should the whole Europe go to war because one asian country invaded an european one?

Does anyone know if SK will send troops to Ukraine?

No