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EFFORTPOST Revisiting Trump Derangement Syndrome

"Trump isn't a fascist. He's just an old man inflicting his narcissistic delusional consensus reality on the entire nation, backed by white supremacist militias which he has already used to attempt to overturn an election."

distinctions WithouT differences

@Impassionata asked me to handle @carpathianflorist 's cowardly request to define "tds," and while at first I was annoyed that Impassionata punted to me, the task has been growing in my mind.

There is this problem with predictive models: if you modeled Trump as an authoritarian dictator type from day one, you were carrying certain preconceptions which may or may not predict Trump's behavior on any given day. It became fashionable, in this postmodern way, to talk about "two movies on one screen." It became fashionable to view Trumpian 'fascist vibes' as an affectation and not an indication. After all, Trump didn't actually attempt to lock Hillary Clinton up.

This notion of 'kayfabe' made politics virtual in a way that would have stunned Baudrillard. Trump, it could be said, was only LARPing fascism, but (so went the theory of the people who denied the validity of the fascist indicators) this was only an elaborate ruse by which to draw leftists into overreacting to the fascist vibes and further discrediting them and empowering Trump.

The net effect was the term "Trump Derangement Syndrome," borrowing from "Bush Derangement Syndrome" which was a traumatic response to the machinery of war being leveraged in post-9/11 America. A large number of people described Bush as a fascist, and this was simply not true.

But it is true that the latent fascism of the United States accelerated under Bush. It is true that surveillance became normalized and the police state became deeply established.

I think much harm has been done by a misreading of Umberto Eco's ur-fascism. Seeking a simplistic definition of fascism and seeking to understand leftists in their own words, would-be commentariat, the chatterati, descended on Eco's article and misunderstood it.

It's also worth noting Jacques Ellul's assertion of "The Victory of Hitler," that regardless of the demise of Nazi Germany, there was no undoing the power of the military-industrial complex, that it could be tethered to a racist political movement at any point. This is the 'ur-fascism' lurking in the background of politics since 1945.

So there's a difference between the latent tendencies towards fascism, the introduction of the "pledge of allegiance" to classrooms, and the development of an actual racist violent movement.

It's more or less indisputable that Eco's ur-fascism exists in American politics. The question is whether or not a movement is active in its pursuit of power, a racist movement, a violent movement, a movement around a strongman.

Which is all to say that there is precedent for "Trump Derangement Syndrome" to describe an overreaction, a label for leftists who are 'taking the bait.'


But this is about communication of the danger. There were many, many points before Hitler's complete control of the police state. The historian says: this movement, Trumpism, bears many of the markers (but not all) of other movements with authoritarian demagogues. It's reasonable to expect that this is a danger to the continued stability of the United States, a danger to democracy, a risk of a purge of undesirables.

Indeed, the actual fact of the matter is that the child separation occurring in immigration processing centers was a deliberate cruelty (and that any separations which occurred under Obama were not inflicted as a regular punishment but out of concern for child trafficking; a distinction with a difference.) This cruelty of Stephen Miller was one of a large number of events which occurred which could not reasonably be said to be 'kayfabe.'

So there is all of this smoke, and there are all of these people who habitually engaged in denialism about that smoke. "That's not smoke, it's just kayfabe." "That's not smoke, it's just a LARP."

And prior to January 6th, perhaps there was limited evidence that Trump would actually engage dictator mode. But this refusal to accept the results of an election is the act of a tyrant. It's the act of a tyrant who is attached to a white supremacist movement which glorifies violence.

It's a fire.

So I ask you the question: who has been deranged by Trump? The people who reacted reasonably to the presence of a fire and called it a fire, even though the denialists called them deranged in their urgent reaction to the presence of a real threat?

Or the people who engaged in denialism about the fact of that fire?

Again, this is simply a matter of fact: Trump is a tyrant, a dictator, an authoritarian leader who does not care about the truth, who resorts to violence, who makes up lies about immigrants to demonize them and justify their mistreatment.

Anyone who can't accept that these people, if given power again, might very well commit genocide, has Trump Derangement Syndrome: Trump distorts their ability to see reality plainly. Trump becomes a figure who they have habitually defended and this deforms their understanding of the reality of these social forms.


Trump is a national disaster.

If you are late to this understanding, and can only now admit to the fact of the fire that the left has been warning about for the better part of a decade, pull the fire alarm. The best time to pull the fire alarm is as soon as you see the smoke. The second best time is now.

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Sp basically - "when we did it, it was fine and completely different to when they did the same thing"?

Never change, Impassionata.

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What an absurd deflection. Truly you are lost and confused.

If you're referring to the BLM protests, by and large the criminals of those events were punished. If you're in favor of BLM property damage being punished, you should be in favor of Trump being punished for January 6th. But you're not, because you're an inconsistent TDS sufferer. You compulsively defend Trump, preferably with a deflection to 'both sides are bad and you're a hypocrite for caring about this.'

But since you placed the bait, there is in fact a difference between a city's residents burning down that city's police station, and a white supremacist militia summoned by a lying candidate interrupting the peaceful transfer of power. If you can't understand that difference, that is another symptom of your TDS.

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Trump wasnt even in the capitol on jan 6th when police let in some tourists and shot one of them.

Everything is explained by Trump being a narcissist who watches too much fox news like every boomer ever. He cares more about the country and constitution than any leftist any will, and since they assume he will act how they would without (optics) being an issue they think he would destroy the country.

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He cares more about the country and constitution than any leftist any will

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/97wJR-8ceac/sddefault.jpg

You are an r-slured person

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>cares more about the country and constitution

Do rightoids really drink the koolaid this hard? He wants to play golf on the feds dime and dunk on r-slurs by telling them he's president and they should shut up the frick up. His interest and responsibility ends there.

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He literally already had the ability to do this even if he quit running for president. Hes got a vig ego i know but not country ending, unlike the long term ramifications of defending "muh democracy" with destroying any foundation of it

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>he literally already had the ability to do this

then he lost and he wants it back. 'shut up dork im the former president' doesn't sound as good with former in it.

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That is the essence of the Amwmerican dream. You're telling on yourself

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I didn't say it was a bad thing. I'm just not a wingcuck peepeesucker who thinks he's god's second gift to America with the divine mission of saving the white race from taco tuesday and the US men's basketball team. Golfing is also for cute twinks and other varieties of homosexual.

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Who was convicted for inciting the BLM riots? I wasn't paying attention

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Marsey says, "Black Lives Matter, and Imp is r-slurred."

:#marseyblm:

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:#marseypumpkin4:

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Reported by:
  • Impassionata : defeated troll attempts the same weak material

So there's a difference between the latent tendencies towards fascism, the introduction of the "pledge of allegiance" to classrooms, and the development of an actual racist violent movement.

Fascism is when children are taught to recite the national anthem.

I think Trump would be the ideal dictator, because if he's old, our Cheeseburger overlord will die very soon. Stress + Age will get to them. I dislike Kamala because she has a low chance of dying in office due to her relative health. Most American presidencies are imperial in nature due to the modern era. Very little has been up to the American people since 1946. Democracy has become something to manage for elites, not something to be a touchstone or guidepost for. Democracy is measured worldwide today with how compliant your country is with the standards fit to be printed in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, etc. Kamala will, if she is not already, just be another authority figure for socialists to suck on their feet, provided she says trans rights before they censor the internet more.

:#marseyfeet:


Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.

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The pledge of allegiance was because America is a nation of immigrants, and you guys had to create a national identity on the fly. So now "maybe your grandparents are Italian or German or Polish or Irish or whatever, but now you're all Americans" and pledging allegiance to the flag is how kids are conditioned to think of themselves as all citizens of the same country, despite their ethnic origins.

Yeah, it's odd from a non-American perspective, but it's understandable.

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Yeah I feel like leftists universally equate nationalism with racism, which makes sense because most leftist are eurocucks, even if they were born in America.


Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.

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Nationalism and jingoism are bedfellows. There is a quiet patriotism on the left, it's just quieter.

and therefore wiser.

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That doesn't make any sense.


Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.

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There is a quiet patriotism on the left

:marseysure#jan:

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BIPOC

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she has a low chance of dying in office due to her relative health

But a higher chance of being killed by the Neighbourhood Watch Alliance for having a very annoying laugh

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@Impassionata I'm right.


Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.

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Fascism is when children are taught to recite the national anthem.

It doesn't seem strange and cult-y to have children reciting something in a ritual fashion every day?

I think Trump would be the ideal dictator, because if he's old, our Cheeseburger overlord will die very soon. Stress + Age will get to them.

The person who answers the most important phone in the world should be about to die? Your reasoning here is so bad it's clearly trolling.

Most American presidencies are imperial in nature due to the modern era.

There is a difference between a presidency having imperial qualities and that president being a tyrant with his own de facto militia.

Very little has been up to the American people since 1946.

At the root of all of these people !followers is nihilism. @Impassionata has been saying this for years. It's really true; underneath it all, these people are nihilists. They don't believe that the American people have any power. This stems from their denialism of the meaning of the fascist vibes. Thank you for being a willing demonstration, patient 203.

The American People decide things all of the time. Obama's health care reform was badly needed if imperfect. Things can change, but they can't change if you deny your power to change.

Trump, and Trump support, became an exercise in denying the disastrous impact of Trump on our society. The fact is that the American People have power: if the American people really want to they can and in fact did put a person like Trump in the presidency.

The difficulty comes in accepting that this was a mistake, or at least, you have this in common with the person who throws a brick at a glass window for any sort of political rage: you now have a broken window and a reputation problem.

Democracy is measured worldwide today with how compliant your country is with the standards fit to be printed in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, etc.

Yes, this is the 90s mantra of neoliberalism, that democracy makes better economies and more trade is good. This is a "capitalism is good" mindset that I would expect you to appreciate.

Autocracies are poorly run. Only stupid people think a strongman will improve a society. But there are a lot of stupid people, and Trump did have an escalator.

Kamala will, if she is not already, just be another authority figure for socialists to suck on their feet, provided she says trans rights before they censor the internet more.

These are weird stupid brainworms. Kamala will govern as a center-right Democrat, an agent of the military-industrial complex.

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It doesn't seem strange and cult-y to have children reciting something in a ritual fashion every day?

You do something every day when you want someone to learn something. Are you potty training a dog, have them practice pooping outside every day till they get it. Same with people, people learn through repetition, and how intelligent they are determines how introspective they get. Intelligent people, or rather sentient people can choose how they feel about something while doing it. Children are technically sentient in some way, but they should be given a set of values to operate on till they have the reasoning abilities to determine what they want. So yes, our kids should be given something to love, cherish and preserve: their country.

The person who answers the most important phone in the world should be about to die? Your reasoning here is so bad it's clearly trolling.

You're just not being sincere. Trump has no potential to be a dictator, because you know, he's almost 80. Label's on the tin, he old. You just dislike old people, I think they're fine. I think Trump receiving the best medical care in the world can get him through 4 years of democratic governance. It won't get him through a 40 year Trumpreich no matter how good is health is. Kamala on the other hand could be Mugabe.

There is a difference between a presidency having imperial qualities and that president being a tyrant with his own de facto militia.

I have yet to see the Trump Freikorps marching through the street. No red helmets, only hats. The only one who has a military force at his command is Joe Biden. Since he's not lucid, that defaults to Harris. I think if Harris was given the opportunity she would coup the government.

The American People decide things all of the time. Obama's health care reform was badly needed if imperfect. Things can change, but they can't change if you deny your power to change.

This is interesting when juxtaposed to this you said thereafter:

These are weird stupid brainworms. Kamala will govern as a center-right Democrat, an agent of the military-industrial complex.

So Americans are voting for a center-right democrat that is functionally an extension of the military industrial complex? Something tells me this is not accurate or you know, how anyone actually thinks.

Yes, this is the 90s mantra of neoliberalism, that democracy makes better economies and more trade is good. This is a "capitalism is good" mindset that I would expect you to appreciate. Autocracies are poorly run. Only stupid people think a strongman will improve a society. But there are a lot of stupid people, and Trump did have an escalator.

Capitalism is eh, free markets are better. When markets and market regulators are captured by large corporations in an incestuous relationship, capitalism looks gross, unappealing. But the only thing worse than "late-stage" capitalism is legitimate socialism. Autocracies, like any system can be poorly run. There are some historically well oiled autocracies that were wealthy, efficient and wonderful to live in relative to the average person's experience. Singapore comes to mind for something current, dial it back a few decades and you have Taiwan, South Korea, Chile. Go back even further, like really far, and you're looking at pre-WWII Italy, along with pre-war Germany, and even further we have Venice, Florence, Carthage and such. Autocracy by itself isn't evil, but I suspect that the reason democracy is better than autocracy is that there is a higher likelihood of an individual authority figure making a mistake as opposed to the collection of stakeholders in say, a national referendum.


Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.

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!followers @Impassionata3 does a pretty good job.

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Someone told me that you like to discuss religion as well as politics. Is this true? Not very many people here give me any material to work with. My :marseyautism: isn't for politics.

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I think engaging with @Impassionata would likely be a waste of time due to the fact that they kinda get reduced to anti-fascism and calling people they disagree with idiots.

For sure, I'm anti-catholic, but I can be less antagonistic if you'd like to take this to the bedroom. :#marseythestrippa:


Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.

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This is Trump Derangement Syndrome patient #203 in my logbook. I'm "reduced to anti-fascism" because I spend time sounding the alarm. Or: he's triggered by his Trump Derangement Syndrome, reflexively defending an old boomer.

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I think anti-fascism is a dumb ideology because to position yourself the antithesis of an ideology you end up becoming the mirror image of it.

:#marseymirror:


Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.

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:marseyagreefast:

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That's why being anti-science actually makes me even MORE science!

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Beliefcels be seething over doubtchads

:#marseyrage: :#marseyindignant:

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I would indeed enjoy it if you were less antagonistic and engaged with me earnestly. :marseyagree: I've been disappointed lately that the only playmate :marseynouautism: for me has been @AhoyNarca who just asks rhetorical questions and makes rude jokes without really being willing to put in much effort in return. Currently it's 6 AM on a Sunday over here which is my designated touch grass day but I'll message you this week and we can find a mutually agreeable subject as a jumping off point. :@governorlove::@governorlove::@governorlove:

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Ok, I'll try to put in more effort next time, it just because English isn't my native language, sometimes, especially when I'd have to type a lot I struggle to put my thoughts into the exact English words that are the best words to express the concepts I'm thinking of.

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:quadnarcachad#love::quadnarcachad#love::quadnarcachad#love:

I married an immigrant and have lived in her ESL homeland for over a year now, I can assure you that I would offer you grace and patience if you toned down the insults a touch. Of the people on this forum I probably empathize with that struggle better than most.

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Occasionally I say insightful things, religion is probably the single topic I know the least about. I do struggle with religion a lot, not faith. I admire and respect most people's faith and religion, but I do struggle as a gay dude to really find something or someone that is in congruence with my understanding, relationship and experiences with God.


Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.

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My IRL experience since coming back to practicing has been that (in the US at least, less so here where Catholicism is more culturally engrained and universal) most LGBT people hate us more than vice versa. I'm not sure how much of that owes to American history having a storied tradition of anti-Catholic prejudice (in the antebellum era the best selling books apart from the Bible were "Convent exposes" telling salacious tales of satanic lesbian nuns) vs. our opposition to civil union laws and the recent scandals implicating primarily same s*x attracted priests as the abusers.

I would also say that our consistency on matters of sexual sin and continued practice of venerating celibacy also makes us a truer opponent than say, Evangelicals, for whom gay men represent an outsized target in proportion to the sexual degeneracy of western culture in general.

On a personal level I have known and experienced platonic love with gay men in the past and harbor no hatred in my heart. :marseysalutepride:

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It's likely my background, but to be honest I generally see evangelical protestants misguided on a lot of scriptural issues, but no more than catholics. I typically meet catholics and protestants IRL that are flagrantly from counterfeit churches. I think that the issues that the catholic church as an entity has been involved in is a large indictment not only the faith of lay catholics, but on the leadership of the church. To me, the church leadership at an institutional level is more of a driver for my dislike of the catholic church as compared to the protestant line of evangelism.

Like I don't think that there's a bunch of convent lesbians in America harboring satanic beliefs, I just think that catholic beliefs are catholics remain either ignorant or indignant about the problems in the church. I had some friends, catholic, who I loved very much. They helped me, I helped them, we really loved and respected each other. And when they got married, they asked me which church they should get married in, they said they were thinking of the catholic one. I urged against it, as my parents had been told in counseling with a priest that they were incompatible and should not get married. My parents have been married for longer than I've been alive, and have been through a lot, and are still in love.

Maybe my issue with the catholic church is more political than I'd like to admit, but I don't think that God's envoy on earth will be selected by the cardinal college. I don't think the pope is infallible, ex cathedra or not. And we're just getting started, but I want to emphasize that I mean all of this in a respectful and legitimate way. I don't want you to feel attacked, but I could see how you could feel that way.


Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.

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I've been here the whole time and I still haven't figured you out. Why are you a Governor? Who do you govern? What authority do you exert over your subordinates? Do you have any control over the population of your constituency?

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And we're just getting started, but I want to emphasize that I mean all of this in a respectful and legitimate way. I don't want you to feel attacked, but I could see how you could feel that way.

:marseysmughips: I only felt "attacked" because you were being insulting in an effort to troll me and you know it. I'm in my 30s and became a "serious" Catholic while living in the Bible Belt so I'm used to people disagreeing with me and/or viewing the Church as evil. We get it from all sides down south. :marseylaughbothsides:

I just think that catholic beliefs are catholics remain either ignorant or indignant about the problems in the church.

To quote Hillaire Belloc (from long before the present day scandals): "The Catholic Church is an institution I am bound to hold divine β€” but for unbelievers a proof of its divinity might be found in the fact that no merely human institution conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight." While I certainly would concede that our hierarchy has failed us grievously at times, I guess on a personal level I reconcile this fact with the truth that God loves us not because we are lovable but because He is love (1 John 4:8). Surrender, not sinlessness, is what the Lord asks of us. Our perfection is demanded (Matthew 5:48), certainly, but it is a perfection paradoxically rooted in the humble Christ and not in our own supposed successes and achievements. That God chose imperfect men to lead His Church can be understood in this light, at least to me. And I mean the Apostles themselves weren't exactly great leaders at all times, either. Peter needed chastisement from Paul, they doubted and denied Christ, etc etc.

as my parents had been told in counseling with a priest that they were incompatible and should not get married.

Interfaith marriage I assume? I can't really comment on your family dynamics or your experiences without significantly more detail, I'm just inferring since I thought you're Lutheran. Attitudes on this subject vary greatly, and the reality is that the religious practices of the father have the strongest correlation to passing down faith. To be married in a Catholic Church you are taking a vow that your children will be raised there, too, meaning that it's not necessarily a wise decision for those who are fully committed. The Church allows it but discourages it for this reason, generally speaking. I'm glad your parents are still in love. :marseyembrace:

Maybe my issue with the catholic church is more political than I'd like to admit, but I don't think that God's envoy on earth will be selected by the cardinal college. I don't think the pope is infallible, ex cathedra or not. And we're just getting started

:marseyexcitedgif: We can pick topics and go through them one by one, I'm already in longpost range and while I recognize that you and most non-Catholics have multiple points of contention it's probably better to tease each one out rather than gishgallop one another on an OP that wasn't about religion.

(@Impassionata3 in SHAMBLES as two neurodivergents steal his topic to argue about something totally unrelated)

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I'm ok walking over @Impassionata, they're not really important to me, but I do enjoy interacting with them.

But yeah, I guess we can continue this whenever, but truthfully I think there are maybe ten reasons why I think the catholic church is not the answer to my crisis of religion. Some political, some leadership wise, some to do with my personal experiences. But I don't have like, the answer myself. I'm just gonna take a shot in the dark and say God isn't muslim.


Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.

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1 John 4:8

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.

Matthew 5:48

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

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Didn't read

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Interesting, and true to some extent. Who told you that? I'll go down that road but there's not a lot to say these days.

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I was expressing my dismay at a lack of interested parties to discuss religion with to @STRIGOISPOOKHAD and your name was mentioned in passing. :marseyflirt: I'm less passionate about the political dimension but if there are topics in Second Temple Judaism/early Christianity or theology that's where I spend most of my energy for the last few years and I'd return :marseylongpost: with :marseylongpost: if it's respectful.

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What is it about that period of time that interests you?

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If Christianity's claims to truth are real contextualizing and understanding the life and teachings of Jesus have to be the starting point. I've worked my way up to the late classical era and I've read a number of books covering the 19th century forward to understand why certain things within the Church function the way they currently do but it's too large a span of history and too broad an organization to really be an expert in everything. I'll probably pick something niche to hone in on in a few years, I'm currently getting a second degree and wanted to transition to teaching so I'll likely grab a master's or PhD in the future.

Logistically it also made sense to focus on those topics because I volunteer with the class adult converts are required to take when they want to become Catholic, so defending the historicity of our teachings and practices has significant personal application in my day-to-day routine.

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:#marseyjohnson:

all these awards I can't read shit

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ur not really missing out on much. just paranoid schizo delusions of proto-fascism

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>denies having TDS

>types endlessly about Trump

:#marseyhmmhips:

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If "TDS sufferer" is defined as "anyone who has typed more than ten sentences about Trump" then certainly, I suffer. But this is civic national duty: partaking in discourse. I shan't feel belittled by the likes of you.

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I shan't feel belittled by the likes of you.

:#marseydoubtit:

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It's like blaming the flag for US foreign policy

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@Spingebill have TRUMP DERANGEMENT SYNDROME. @Spingebill WOULD COMMIT DERANGED ACTS FOR HIM. @Spingebill is HIS TOP GUY

MF DOOM SAYS JEWISH LIVES MATTER

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bro, fascism was a brief progressive ideology in which the lives of the citizens, economic engines, and powers of the state were entirely coopted and wholly dedicated to the production of a new man never before seen in history.

it has literally nothing to do with modern american conservatism, which is still built on the ideas of classical liberalism and individual freedom, and trying to call it that is nothing more than radlib fear mongering.

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No one ever applies eco to themselves, the covid lockdowns forced by lefties run the whole list, lol

Cope more

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I'm just glad immigrants stopped trafficking children so we could take their actual kids away from them instead

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Congrats, you got me to read half of it despite the absolutely aids-tier visual effects until i realised it was complete and irrelevant BIPOCcute twinkry. You're a massive cute twink btw

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