A lot of the clean Wehrmacht myth came from the allies themselves from the time the Bundeswehr was established in the mid-50s, you'll see films like “The Desert Fox” popping up depicting Rommel as some gentlemanly general. Unfortunately they had no choice but to put former Wehrmacht officers in charge, the East Germans did the same as most of the initial Volksarmee high command was made of former Wehrmacht officers, so these people did their best to whitewash themselves and blame it all of the NSDAP and the SS
Aevanncapy/bara
world's largest rodent
ACA 10mo ago#6382010
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the 20 july thing didnt happen out of any moral qualms, the generals were just unhappy with how hitler was causing them to lose the war by his idiotic orders and interference
Heck, most of the july 20 plotters thought they could “negotiate” with the allies and retain some of their territorial gains
The “we lost because the Führer ignored us” is also a Wehrmacht General
Germany was doomed due to lack of resources and manpower and Hitler's military decisions were a mixed bag of good and terrible ideas, not unlike the rest of the OKW and OKH
BushWasRightfree/dom
There's no ideology but liberal democracy and Fukuyama is its prophet
nuclearshill 10mo ago#6381889
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In Rommel's case building his legend also helped cover up allied incompetence. "We didn't throw hundreds of tanks away in badly planned attacks, we were just outsmarted by a tactical genius".
The UK, France, Germany, and Poland were all against the USSR so how exactly would Stalin have managed to take over Europe if all those were working together against him? It's because Germany invaded everybody else first that Stalin got the chance to eventually take such a big part of Eastern and Central Europe.
Before Molotov-Ribbentrop there were like two Bolshevik countries, the USSR and Mongolia . After the Nazis stopped communism the first time (by allying with them) half a dozen anti-communist countries got absorbed into the USSR . After the Nazis stopped communism the second time (by launching a poorly-planned invasion) there would be a dozen more (including half of Germany) and communism would reach its peak over the following decades .
Communist_spezme/mine
Seeing the world through the lenses of the immortal science of Marxism-Leninism
yesimawesome 10mo ago#6382033
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not to mention Stalin's whole defining policy was "Socialism in one country".
Germany did not want war with their western neighbors. France and uk declared war on germany. Nazis did lots of bad things but you cant blame them for communism spreading to eastern europe. That is the fault of the nations that gave the soviets the weapons and materials to resist and ultimately defeat the nazis. The allies should have just let them fight until the USSR was dissolved or once hitler killed himself, nuke moscow, and liberate the rest of europe. Hindsight is 20/20. The other thing that makes that calculation hard at the time is the US being isolationist. I dont think the nazis winning would really be all that bad anyway (unless you are jewish and prefer to not be ash). Spain was fascist until the 70s and they were fine. Japan was the actual evil empire at the time.
Hitler knew, when he invaded Poland, that France and the UK had pledged themselves to defend Poland against a German attack so it's not like it was a surprise. It's hard to blame France and the UK from viewing an expansionist Germany as a bigger threat than the USSR. Germany had been their recent enemy in the largest war in human history up to that point, was much closer geographically to them than the USSR, and its economy was actually equal to the USSR's in GDP terms. Hitler could probably have formed an anti-Soviet block with France, the UK, and Poland if his main goal had really been to defeat communism. Instead he invaded Poland and then rejected the France/UK ultimatum of "withdraw or we declare war" that came soon afterward.
I dont really blame them for declaring war on germany with the information they had. I blame them for helping the soviets though.
Do you really think france and uk and poland would have been open to steamrolling the ussr with germany? I dont. Maybe they would have gone for a defensive pact but nazis wanted to wipe out ussr and expand into eastern europe not defend themselves.
It's obvious in hindsight that Germany was doomed given the resource and nuclear weapons research advantage of the Western allies but look at it from the perspective of 1941 with France occupied, the UK getting bombed, and the US only starting to seriously help. At that point helping the USSR was an obvious thing to do. And even afterward once Germany started to obviously lose, helping the USSR still likely let the Western Allies save huge numbers of lives of their own soldiers at the cost of just shipping the USSR some stuff.
>I think between stalinism and nazis, nazis are the lesser evil.
!commies you just know that no matter how carefully we explain how fricking wrong he is he will start going on about the gazillion famine deaths, nevermind how the imperialist powers industrialized off shit like
This was the result of a gentlemanly contest between Ioseb and Winston in which Stalin personally curbstomped 10 gorrlion Ukranians and Churchill bayonetted everybody in East India, Bangladesh, and West Bengal (also 10 gorillion)
Im not a communism evil kinda guy. I just think stalin was evil. Ussr post stalin wasnt so bad and would have been better without the us trying to make them fail so hard.
The wehrmacht may have plausible deniability but when it comes down to it the heer was just as guilty as the ss. It is easy to say the ss was responsible snce the ss tv staffed the camps and the waffen ss were fanatics but the vast, vast majority of heer soldiers followed orders just like the ss. The veterans themselves deny it of course but so did most of the ss. I don't necessarily blame them for it but anyone from the wehrmacht denying knowledge of war crimes is full of shit.
KutkopMong/Tard
It was the eggrolls not the ecstasy
10mo ago#6381852
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I mean they're not wrong that the really horrible shit was done mostly by the SS and Gestapo. They were no worse or better than the average allied soldier (excluding Russia obviously)
HonkeyHanger1599Kitty/Cat
All Marseys Are Beautiful...but orange kitties are the cutest
Kutkop 10mo ago#6382026
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This is the myth Aevann was referring to. While it is true that the SS did most of the work in the camps
During World War II, the German Wehrmacht (combined armed forces - Heer, Kriegsmarine, and Luftwaffe) committed systematic war crimes, including massacres, mass r*pe, looting, the exploitation of forced labour, the murder of three million Soviet prisoners of war, and participated in the extermination of Jews.
Historians Alex J. Kay and David Stahel argue that, including crimes such as r*pe, forced labour, wanton destruction, and looting in addition to murder, "it would be reasonable to conclude that a substantial majority of the ten million Wehrmacht soldiers deployed at one time or another in the German-Soviet War were involved or complicit in criminal conduct".[3] The German Wehrmacht is regarded as being a "crucial factor in the most horrendous crime perpetrated by any nation in modern history" in regard to genocides committed by the regime.[4]
I also think it is important to point out that the Soviet atrocities were committed after many millions of their countrymen were subjected to that brutality, giving them the (arguably flimsy) excuse of revenge.
BushWasRightfree/dom
There's no ideology but liberal democracy and Fukuyama is its prophet
Kutkop 10mo ago#6381939
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It depends on a unit (and the circumstances they found themselves in), but there were plenty of Wehrmacht units committing war crimes as gleefully as SS.
Lefotids think every German conscript had basic training in making Jew skin lampshades and putting prisoners in bags with eagles and monkeys and throwing them into lakes before graduating to holocoaster operator by the pit of fire
Communist_spezme/mine
Seeing the world through the lenses of the immortal science of Marxism-Leninism
Avalon 10mo ago#6383127
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Cyberstalkerhe/him
Aspiring hikikomori
10mo ago#6382749
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I just got recommended this video yesterday, it's surprising how quickly the video jumps from a historical anecdote about steel to "my country, right or wrong" nationalist seething. Also I'm surprised they still believe they were always only fighting against bolshevism even after the anecdote about trade with the soviets, and the molotov-ribbentrop pact (which was not mentioned in the video), and then dropped the facade when describing the invasion of the Netherlands.
Snappybeep/boop
Join !friendsofsnappy 10mo ago#6381666
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The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word “Journ*list”. If I were a father and had a daughter who was seduced, I should not despair over her; I would hope for her salvation. But if I had a son who became a journ*list and continued to be one for five years, I would give him up.
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What!
But I thought muh wholesome wehrmacht soldiers were honorable and totally not nazis!
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a myth so widespread it has its own wiki page
its amazing how effective german propaganda is, that it still has its effects on ppl 80 years later
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A lot of the clean Wehrmacht myth came from the allies themselves from the time the Bundeswehr was established in the mid-50s, you'll see films like “The Desert Fox” popping up depicting Rommel as some gentlemanly general. Unfortunately they had no choice but to put former Wehrmacht officers in charge, the East Germans did the same as most of the initial Volksarmee high command was made of former Wehrmacht officers, so these people did their best to whitewash themselves and blame it all of the NSDAP and the SS
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tru tru
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Rommel tried to assassinate Hitler, and in the face of choosing between suicide or executing his whole family, he chose to commit suicide.
So he's okay in my book.
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the 20 july thing didnt happen out of any moral qualms, the generals were just unhappy with how hitler was causing them to lose the war by his idiotic orders and interference
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Hitler killed Hitler.
So he's okay in my book.
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Heck, most of the july 20 plotters thought they could “negotiate” with the allies and retain some of their territorial gains

The “we lost because the Führer ignored us” is also a Wehrmacht General
Germany was doomed due to lack of resources and manpower and Hitler's military decisions were a mixed bag of good and terrible ideas, not unlike the rest of the OKW and OKH
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It was actually a legitimate complaint, the Wehrmacht was perfectly capable of making terrible decisions without (literally) Hitler's oversight
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In Rommel's case building his legend also helped cover up allied
incompetence. "We didn't throw hundreds of tanks away in badly planned attacks, we were just outsmarted by a tactical genius".
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Rommel was a good and daring general, but wasn't some mythic fricking Alexander
Montgomery on the other hand was a fricking r-slur, he gave the Afrika Korps so much shit for free in hindsight
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People like halder and manstein should've been shot tbh.
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truestfax
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From whom do you think the Americans stole it from?
Bernays was also Germa...oh wait...
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jew
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the YT comments loool. yeah germany is cucked and embarassing in 2k24, but wishing for muhh based & sophiscated nazerinos to come back is crazy
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everyone has an excuse. everyone thinks they're the good guys and only forced by circumstances or their enemies to do evil as a last resort.
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And then there's white people
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The UK, France, Germany, and Poland were all against the USSR so how exactly would Stalin have managed to take over Europe if all those were working together against him? It's because Germany invaded everybody else first that Stalin got the chance to eventually take such a big part of Eastern and Central Europe.
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Before Molotov-Ribbentrop there were like two Bolshevik countries, the USSR and Mongolia
. After the Nazis stopped communism the first time (by allying with them) half a dozen anti-communist countries got absorbed into the USSR
. After the Nazis stopped communism the second time (by launching a poorly-planned invasion) there would be a dozen more (including half of Germany) and communism would reach its peak over the following decades
.
Good work, Nazis
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this is Tannu Tuva erasure
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Hoi4 player spotted
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not to mention Stalin's whole defining policy was "Socialism in one country".
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Germany did not want war with their western neighbors. France and uk declared war on germany. Nazis did lots of bad things but you cant blame them for communism spreading to eastern europe. That is the fault of the nations that gave the soviets the weapons and materials to resist and ultimately defeat the nazis. The allies should have just let them fight until the USSR was dissolved or once hitler killed himself, nuke moscow, and liberate the rest of europe. Hindsight is 20/20. The other thing that makes that calculation hard at the time is the US being isolationist. I dont think the nazis winning would really be all that bad anyway (unless you are jewish and prefer to not be ash). Spain was fascist until the 70s and they were fine. Japan was the actual evil empire at the time.
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Hello subhuman. Please highlight which of these individuals you look like.
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I dont even understand this charge being laid against me. You think I am slavic? You think I am a stereotypical dysgenic trailerpark neonazi?
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Hitler knew, when he invaded Poland, that France and the UK had pledged themselves to defend Poland against a German attack so it's not like it was a surprise. It's hard to blame France and the UK from viewing an expansionist Germany as a bigger threat than the USSR. Germany had been their recent enemy in the largest war in human history up to that point, was much closer geographically to them than the USSR, and its economy was actually equal to the USSR's in GDP terms. Hitler could probably have formed an anti-Soviet block with France, the UK, and Poland if his main goal had really been to defeat communism. Instead he invaded Poland and then rejected the France/UK ultimatum of "withdraw or we declare war" that came soon afterward.
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I dont really blame them for declaring war on germany with the information they had. I blame them for helping the soviets though.
Do you really think france and uk and poland would have been open to steamrolling the ussr with germany? I dont. Maybe they would have gone for a defensive pact but nazis wanted to wipe out ussr and expand into eastern europe not defend themselves.
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It's obvious in hindsight that Germany was doomed given the resource and nuclear weapons research advantage of the Western allies but look at it from the perspective of 1941 with France occupied, the UK getting bombed, and the US only starting to seriously help. At that point helping the USSR was an obvious thing to do. And even afterward once Germany started to obviously lose, helping the USSR still likely let the Western Allies save huge numbers of lives of their own soldiers at the cost of just shipping the USSR some stuff.
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I think between stalinism and nazis, nazis are the lesser evil. Do you think mao wins china if the soviets collapse in 43?
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!commies you just know that no matter how carefully we explain how fricking wrong he is he will start going on about the gazillion famine deaths, nevermind how the imperialist powers industrialized off shit like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule
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Why is this peepee-measuring contest even a thing anything? They both suck, and deserve to die in the memories of history
!grillers !burgers
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I have enough hatred for both. This is America, the land of plenty. One need not ration their hate for other, inferior ways of life.
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Commies did nothing wrong
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Absolutely and it's why we must abuse our local commies as much as possible
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Always with the whataboutism, even when the Soviet Union supposedly wasnt real Communism to begin with, and Curious, and !anticommunists
ok so
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Lol
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Hmmm is there a Wikipedia article on the USSR invasion of Poland in collaboration with Adolf Hitler?
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You don't understand: the USSR was not real communism, but British colonial control of India was real capitalism.
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This was the result of a gentlemanly contest between Ioseb and Winston in which Stalin personally curbstomped 10 gorrlion Ukranians and Churchill bayonetted everybody in East India, Bangladesh, and West Bengal (also 10 gorillion)
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Im not a communism evil kinda guy. I just think stalin was evil. Ussr post stalin wasnt so bad and would have been better without the us trying to make them fail so hard.
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There's gonna be like two billion Indians soon man, they did fine
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Probably not, but there's a good chance of Hitler genociding millions of Slavs if the he wins the war.
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The wehrmacht may have plausible deniability but when it comes down to it the heer was just as guilty as the ss. It is easy to say the ss was responsible snce the ss tv staffed the camps and the waffen ss were fanatics but the vast, vast majority of heer soldiers followed orders just like the ss. The veterans themselves deny it of course but so did most of the ss. I don't necessarily blame them for it but anyone from the wehrmacht denying knowledge of war crimes is full of shit.
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Actually super interesting to hear their perspective.
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I mean they're not wrong that the really horrible shit was done mostly by the SS and Gestapo. They were no worse or better than the average allied soldier (excluding Russia obviously)
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This is the myth Aevann was referring to. While it is true that the SS did most of the work in the camps
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht#:~:text=The%20myth%20of%20the%20clean,crimes%20during%20World%20War%20II.
I also think it is important to point out that the Soviet atrocities were committed after many millions of their countrymen were subjected to that brutality, giving them the (arguably flimsy) excuse of revenge.
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theres nothing more noble than revenge
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jew
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I'm very much aware of that myth. What I was pointing out is that some of the things listed there are stuff that happened on both sides.
The allied intentionally (fire)bombed civilians and you can easily find trials about r*pe and murder too.
The Nazis were worse but Russia does come in a relatively close second.
I'm far from a wehraboo but I do believe the average German soldier wasn't some monster
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It depends on a unit (and the circumstances they found themselves in), but there were plenty of Wehrmacht units committing war crimes as gleefully as SS.
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Ye but according to those old guys the civilians must have done something to provoke them
Like being a slav or something
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Lefotids think every German conscript had basic training in making Jew skin lampshades and putting prisoners in bags with eagles and monkeys and throwing them into lakes before graduating to holocoaster operator by the pit of fire
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fricking nazi
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Yes I frick Nazis.
What have you done?
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!veterans discuss
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Eastern euroBIPOCs and Ossis deserved communism tbh. Maybe not Poland but the rest of them did 100%.
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The whole world deserves communism
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I just got recommended this video yesterday, it's surprising how quickly the video jumps from a historical anecdote about steel to "my country, right or wrong" nationalist seething. Also I'm surprised they still believe they were always only fighting against bolshevism even after the anecdote about trade with the soviets, and the molotov-ribbentrop pact (which was not mentioned in the video), and then dropped the facade when describing the invasion of the Netherlands.
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Baßed
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Thanks bongs for ruining everything once again
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The war of 1812 was justified, that land was British just 25 years ago
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Poland never revolted, they were just given their own country after WW1, entirely different situation.
Why did Britain care so much about Poland
anyway?
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Prussia was the military engine of Germany, and an independent Polish state would solidify the eventual dissolution of Prussia.
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My toaster is made by Krupp.
Love it.
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The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word “Journ*list”. If I were a father and had a daughter who was seduced, I should not despair over her; I would hope for her salvation. But if I had a son who became a journ*list and continued to be one for five years, I would give him up.
Snapshots:
:ghostarchive.org
archive.org
archive.ph (click to archive)
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