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Because villains are characters and unsympathetic characters are boring
Ofc modern writing doesn't take advantage of this and makes sympathetic characters boring anyway
@Grue stand with Israel
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Bullshit. Evil is interesting on it's own
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You don't have to feel sorry for or forgive Evil. But if the goal is comprehensible the story makes more sense
@Grue stand with israel
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I get what you mean, but the problem with those writers is that they keep making villains "misunderstood good guys" which is really lame. Maleficent and Cruella writers are the guiltiest of this.
You can have a 3-dimensional fun character and still make him unrepentantly evil.
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It really isn't. Evil is only interesting because of its relation to the moral being explored. If the villain loses because he wastes his time kicking every puppy along the road, then the only meaningful character trait in the hero is the fact that he kicked slightly fewer puppies and therefore had more free time.
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Sometimes the villain is just a Great Beast to be vanquished and sometimes humans are genuinely irredeemable pieces of shit who must be destroyed
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Are beasts really incomprehensible though? Is an animal truly unsympathetic?
And no, no human is irredeemable. The point is that it's the villain themselves who must do the redeeming.
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Debatable. Maybe after years of reflection, religion, or hecking therapy. Regardless, when there's a crisis sometimes the threat just needs to be destroyed. Stories serve different purposes, some are for exploring a moral theme, sometimes it's just about man overcoming a great threat. It's the oldest type of storytelling. Trope subversion can be interesting, but there's nothing inherently wrong with these stories.
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Jail exists for the sole reason that there are errors you can't make up for. You kill someone you have effectively cursed your own life because failing to punish you would be an insult to all the people that managed not to murder someone on their way.
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The Alien aliens are truly unsympathetic while being comprehensible.
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Not always true. Horror villains can be interesting despite having zero sympathetic traits
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They ruined Michael Myers by trying to give him a back story
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There are plenty of horror villains with sympathetic traits btw. The "Saw" puppet guy and Jason are two examples.
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Sure, but I was more thinking along the lines of The Thing, IT, Alien, Hellraiser, or Halloween. I know the last two examples eventually did give sympathetic stories to their villains, but they were already considered interesting before that.
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Slasher films and gore films are absolute slop. Good horror showcases the monster people can be whether by making a person act like a monster or creating a monster to project human evil onto.
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Weyland-Yutani being the reason humans have to deal with the aliens so frequently supports your point, but I do think there's room for good horror which doesn't always go for 'but humans are the real monsters'.
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Are you able to name one unsympathetic interesting villain? (Besides Big Jack What's-His-Name, since I haven't watched the movie yet.)
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Assault on Precinct 13 !kino
The villains are named White Warlord, Black Warlord, Oriental Warlord, and Latinx Warlord.
Their motivation is being so pissed off at the LAPD that they unite their races to declare war on the city and kill a random little girl. The gangs end up storming a police station. None of the criminals have speaking roles other than violent screeching. It rules, very primal "barbarians at the gates" feeling.
BANGER soundtrack too
Also reflects reality
https://www.courant.com/2020/05/29/angry-demonstrators-in-minneapolis-ransack-torch-police-station-cnn-reporter-arrested-on-air/
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Anton Chigurh
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Good pick
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I mean, you could also just make up a story if you want. I would definitely accept that. I always thought the whole "reputable external source" demand was a bit stupid.
If you can't even do that then your position is nothing more than your own unexaminable opinion. Whereas my beliefs are open to any question you have about them.
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Hannibal Lector
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Hans Gruber from Die Hard
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Big Jack What's-His-Name, from that movie you haven't watched yet
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Ganon man is sympathetic
Dark orange man has to be bad to balance out the light.
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there's a certain exoticism and mystery you can evoke with characters so detached from your reasoning and morality that they can't be related to or sympathized with. if done right
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gay,
the best villains are plain evil with incomprehensible motives(because they are r-slurred).
my favorite show has the antagonist be a guy who becomes obsessed with European dolls during ww2 and then starts a company to militarize them through to the 90's. he schizo rants a lot, molests the robots he makes and makes dolls out of women he likes and forces the women to operate them remotely because he hates touching them. he has no motive other than being schizo and making more robots.
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What show is that?
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animu called key the metal idol
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how can you watch this movie and take it seriously
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For those who are not !kino as you
What movie is this again?
!islam
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Wicked. Not out yet.
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But I saw Wicked in theater and she hadn't joined ISIS.
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Times change
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The Wicked Witch of the West is akshually "LE GOOD" and a lesbian with Glinda.
It's based in some fan-fic musical.
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So she wasn't Imperialist Japan, she was the victim?
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Yes, they bullied her for being green and she turned evil
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A movie where they put a black girl in green face and a brown girl in white face.
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Ariana is white as snow. That's what she looks like without fake tanner.
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Convinving people she is latinx has been an inspiring gayop, ngl.
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Shrek: peepee dimension
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The books were good (very homosexual, literally). The musical was a musical (very homosexual.) This looks even more that. (black and homosexual, but not even).
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Make Mostro The Victim Again
Make The Hunter Who Shot Bambi's Mom The Victim Again
Make Cinderella's Stepmother and Stepsisters The Victim Again
Make The Red Queen The Victim Again
Make Shere Khan The Victim Again
Make The Sheriff of Nottingham The Victim Again
Make Jafar The Victim Again
Make Scar The Victim Again
Make Hades The Victim Again
!r-slurs !nonchuds
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Jafar was deposing a corrupt and spendthrift sultan who was bankrupting the sultantate at the expense of its people. He did literally nothing wrong except lose. If Disney wants me as a viewer all it would take is a political drama tv show starring Jafar navigating Ottoman court politics lorded over by the mad sultan.
!besties
Thoughts?
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Would be kino, especially if the Sultan is genuinely well-meaning but incompetent and Jaffar starts out being loyal to him but gradually grows to resent him.
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I don't think Hollywood writers could pull it off. It would be an interesting disney-millennials-growing-up-with-the-IPs-they-know TV show.
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It would also require an understanding of Islam impossible for an atheist.
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Wrong.
@Grue stand with Israel
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Just make a live action The Thief and the Cobbler. Itll come out in 15 years.
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Monstro was never evil though, he's just a giant whale, a force of nature like Moby Peepee.
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Mostro is the victim of Industrialism and Colonialism.
You (the "foid You") don't NEED spermaceti for consumer products. You just don't want to go without it even the cost of the life of Mostro.
!freemostro
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Kill
Your self
@Grue stand with israel
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There's already a musical for that.
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Because they're trying to appeal to a made up socialistic story that the villains are just victims of the existing system, really.
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Oh honey
@Grue stand with israel
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...That's not the only way to write a sympathetic villain you know. It's okay if their mistakes are their own, so long as there is a method to their choices.
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I think the majority of the time it's laziness. "If I wrote my villain as being a bad person who is bad for bad reasons then I would have to write my character as being good too, and I'm lazy".
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But most of the disney villains are portrayed as being initially being good who are then wronged and are villains for revenge or seek to upend the system that "oppressed" them.
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As always, it's women's fault
!repealthe19th
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Kill you're self
@Grue stand with Israel
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I never watched the Cruella de Vil movie but I can't get over them trying to make a spinoff with her the b-word was trying to kill puppies
Guessing it's entirely an r-slured foid fashion thing bc "young cruela" as a femme fatale with the black/white hair had aesthetic market appeal
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DOGS WERE MEAN TO HER WHEN SHE WAS YOUNG. SHE HAS A SAD BACKSTORY.
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That's her own stupid fault, dogs can sense your character
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RACIST DOGS
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She's an animal lover in the film, despite trained dogs being used to push her mother off a cliff. They show how she gets where she is financially and for fashion, but none of the personality from 101 Dalmatians. There was idle talk from the two Emmas that they'd like to do a Godfather 2-style sequel, showing how the Duchess and Cruella became villains, but Cruella is entirely sympathetic throughout.
There would be something like 30 years for her to become evil, but while she has all the external Cruella identifiers and has some elements of things like her ruthlessness, she's nowhere near her later incarnation.
The film is far from its 'dogs did her wrong, feel bad for her' reputation even though both those things are true. She's not that person yet, but there's another hissable female villain to tide you over beforehand.
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Sympathetic villains are good.
Unsympathetic heroes are better.
The Disney motivation of toxic positivity that makes for sympathetic villains and sympathetic heroes is still shite.
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There's difference between sympathetic villains and "akshually the villain was a good guy at heart but he's just misunderstood".
A villain can be pure evil and the public will love him or even root for him if done right.
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Good example, Magneto's goals are not even sympathetic (he wants to genocide humans lol) but he's a fun character.
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An "unsympathetic hero" is just a Mary Sue.
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There's a place for deep, structured villains where the conflict isn't one-sided.
That ain't a Disney movie aimed at kids.
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Children's movies don't need to be shallow.
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Avatar (the wind boi one) has quite complex themes throughout, but still has "le evil fire man wants to burn everything because evil" as the red thread. Given you could argue that he's got a sad childhood too but it's only hinted at.
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because they use sob story backstories in place of good writing
the best villains aren't necessarily sympathetic but have a point
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You don't need a sob story backstory to have a sympathetic villain.
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A lot of this boils down to 'any of these concepts can be done well, some just require more talent to make work than others'. And there's a lot of untalented people who get work with ideas beyond their ability to execute.
This isn't a new problem, though we can only talk about the examples we're aware of. I feel like the reason the issue is worse now isn't because more things are shit, it's that we can now watch and read more from the creators online. Which lets the audience see how different what they thought they were making is from what they achieved, or how poorly they receive criticism and turn on their audience, or how little they understand about what people enjoy in their work.
Matrix: Resurrections, being very meta, has a scene where characters discuss what people liked so much about The Matrix. And besides people liking different things (and rarely more than the first film), it's an exercise in believing their own hype and grandiosity. Hence, bad sequels.
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Cruella was the most ridiculous example of this
!slots167
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I just interpreted Cruella as a "what-if" story, as in "what if Cruella wasn't raised by literal demons". That's not an exaggeration. In the original book both branches of her family had some…questionable ancestry.
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I liked Cruella, it was fun, but yes, you're not being asked to cheer for a puppy killer. It's not like it's an unsung masterpiece, but it's better than the bare bones information must people have about it suggests. Her tragic backstory is about setting her against her villain, not about trying to make you excuse the behaviour of the character she'll become decades later.
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Also the villain breeds Dalmatians but there aren't any old ones walking around. Most likely she drowns them when they get too old to push people off the cliff.
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Didnt Stan Lee said you have to make the villian more interesting than the hero?
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Imagine what your grandmother would think if she saw the shit you were posting. Do you think she would love how you spend your days laughing at the misfortune of others? If you all just applied yourself, maybe, just possibly, one day you will reach the potential that all your elementary school teachers talked about. Until then, keep shitposting your life away, and try to feel secure in the knowledge that at least you don't lose your shit on the internet.
Snapshots:
:ghostarchive.org
archive.org
archive.ph (click to archive)
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