EFFORTPOST THE AMERICAN TOLKIEN :marseythegrey: :soyjakyell: :marseygeorgerrmartin: :marseyit:


								

								

https://time.com/archive/6675462/books-the-american-tolkien/

A common discussion in Fantasy online circles seems to be "who's the new Tolkien?", this article by Time magazine dates from 2005 and is responsible for popularizing the idea that George RR Martin is the "American Tolkien".

What really distinguishes Martin, and what marks him as a major force for evolution in fantasy, is his refusal to embrace a vision of the world as a Manichaean struggle between Good and Evil. Tolkien's work has enormous imaginative force, but you have to go elsewhere for moral complexity. Martin's wars are multifaceted and ambiguous, as are the men and women who wage them and the gods who watch them and chortle, and somehow that makes them mean more. A Feast for Crows isn't pretty elves against gnarly orcs. It's men and women slugging it out in the muck, for money and power and lust and love.

Now I have to say a like ASOIAF a lot, but I never understood why those two authors get compared to each other. They both write Fantasy and love (loved in Tolkien's case) world-building and lore but that's it, their writing styles are different, their stories are different, their themes are different. Is it just because :#marseygeorgerrmartin: has a "double R" on his name (the second R which he added by the way). Is it because the "what's Aragorn's tax policy" quote? :soyjakfat:

The article talks about Robert Jordan too @kaamrev :marseysoypoint: and what's funny is that it comes as a review for "A Feast for Crows" which is… well, ranked low among ASOIAFcels, most fans feel the series peaked in "A Storm of Swords" and AFFC can be a slog for many.

I think it can be argued GRRM is currently the best Fantasy author alive (I guess this speaks more of the current state of fantasy but many would claim it is :marseyrowling:), there's a lot of his writing which is good but also what is bad tends to be very bad

Like this:

Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up, she was pooping brown water. The more she drank the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew.

Daenerys last chapter on ADWD lmao

Or this from AFFC which I don't know if it is good, bad, funny or what

Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace, she thought, slipping a third finger into Myr. Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons of my face and fingers one by one, al those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs.

Cersei describing licking Robert's c*m instead of finishing inside her, she says that while anally fingering a woman. Maybe we can qualify it as a realistic :marseywomanmoment:

Then there are the thematic differences, Tolkien's Legendarium is mythology, which was Tolkien's life passion, he gets criticized for making "black and white" characters instead of "morally grey" ones but the thing is his main themes are "Good vs Evil" on a cosmic battle, envy (Morgoth) and the will to dominate (Sauron) are the ultimate evil, he's not aiming at historical accuracy as mythology is always anachronistic. ASOIAF is an attempt at European Medieval History but "what if dragons and evil ice elves existed?" Is not good representation of Medieval Western Europe either as medieval peasants were just passive NPCs which lords like the Boltons could skin alive without repercussions, the evil characters of ASOIAF like the Boltons, the Mountain or Tywin get away with too much shit. The high lords of Westeros are also weirdly and modernly atheistic or irreligious, so for all of GRRM's talk about his saga being "historically well grounded" it doesn't seem better than any other fantasy novel, not that it is a problem as it doesn't affect writing quality and storylines just something to point out.

A good way to conclude is that GRRM is not the American Tolkien, in fact no one is and that's ok. An author should be it's own thing, they shouldn't live under the shadow of another author to be compared and I feel like every time the media or fans say stuff like "X IS THE AMERICAN Y" :marseysoylentgrin: or "A IS THE NEW B" :marseysoyhype:they're doing X and A a disservice.

Here are some reddit threads on it

https://old.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/hw0ls4/the_american_tolkien_isnt_george_r_r_martin_its/

Here this redditor argues the American Tolkien is not GRRM but Stephen King :marseyxd:

And here's Robert Jordan's thread

https://old.reddit.com/r/books/comments/61k1v0/robert_jordan_the_american_tolkien/

I never read Jordan so maybe their fans can tell us if that's an apt comparison but I'm certain having Jordan just be Jordan is much better

https://old.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/1fim7a/no_spoilers_the_american_spectator_is_george_rr/

The Game of Thrones sub (normiest ASOIAF sub ever).

!bookworms !ringbearers

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!comicshitters Jack Kirby has more claim to being "The American Tolkien" then GRRM. While Stan Lee was interested in the relatability and melodrama of his characters Kirby was obsessed with the epic and mythic. Just how Steve Ditko viewed the comic book as a form of education wherein a flawed lad named Peter Parker would learn Aristotlean virtue and grow up, something Stan Lee turned into the endless churn of the illusion of change, Kirby imagined the superhero as vector for modern day mythology with definite beginning middles and ends, The New Gods series at DC started off as a idea for Thor where in all the Asgardians would die in Ragnarok and be replaced with the new gods something Stan disparaged of.

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17226222803862135.webp https://i.rdrama.net/images/1722622280448269.webp https://i.rdrama.net/images/17226222825434854.webp https://i.rdrama.net/images/17226222807561858.webp https://i.rdrama.net/images/17226222815822585.webp https://i.rdrama.net/images/17226222818959298.webp https://i.rdrama.net/images/17226223857452595.webp

In his mind he was making instant Myth:

https://i.rdrama.net/images/1722622280567328.webp

Some seething over the fascist content of Kirby reminds me a lot of when People accuse Tolkien of fascism minus the specific art style comments:

https://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2012/09/funky-flashman/

Jack Kirby's superhero comics are Manichean. Reality is seen in black and white in these primary colored comics. From a purely visual point of view this means that the baddies are ugly (as seen above) and the goodies are mostly good looking. [...]

Kirby's graphic style is a cubo-futurism that underlines and glorifies, technology, youth and violence. [...]

Giving us not only a fascistic glorification and aestheticization, but also a sanitized version of violence Jack Kirby's work is the perfect embodiment of kitsch.

Quite literally is there anything more emblematic of American exceptionalism then making pure pulpy bottom of the barrel trash and dead serious thinking its on par with Homer?

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/17226226016817179.webp

Isn't this the plot of "American Gods"?

Jack Kirby's superhero comics are Manichean. Reality is seen in black and white in these primary colored comics

NOOOO YOU CAN'T DEPICT THE BAD GUYS ARE UGLY AND IRREDEEMABLE!!! :marseysoycry:

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That quote is from First issue Special #1 from the 70s. Its a common enough idea imo. Neil Gaiman's whole thing is that all stories are valid in real in how they help people and thats what magic is or something. Its something Dave Sim makes fun of him for in Cerebus. Neil Gaiman is basically the corporate friendly Alan Moore since he doesnt oppose Kitsch like Moore does.

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What the heck is kitsch?

I know that odd nerdrum guy is all about but I don't get it

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Kitsch refers to poor taste/tacky art

But I'm not sure if it means the same to comicshitters @KatserKitty1987

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Its like tacky and lol quality art. I mean more Gaiman would say all art is valuable as long as it means something to someone while Moore views the west as having caused a massive cultural decline.

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Alan Moore does seem like an elitist

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He's a midwit who was worshipped as a genius by people who think palestinian lives matter. A crueler fate is hard too imagine.

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I think in this case it's pretty much the same idea. There's a lot to mock about Gaiman, but I've always liked the core idea of his writing: that anything has a meaning to it's existence, as long as it matters to someone. Even in The Sandman, he includes the weird superhero versions of the character from the past as part of the story, and one of those characters is literally the catalyst for the climax of the series.

It's a pretty prevalent concept in his stories, probably most obvious in American Gods, where oddball roadside attractions are explicitly stated to have a spiritual/magical power to them. The whole thing is, admittedly, pretty pretentious in it's lack of pretentiousness, but I do like it.

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I'm not reading this entire thread but George RR Martin is the post-60's American Tolkein, and that's why he's kitsch and constantly talking about gross sexual encounters and forces everyone into a position of deep moral ambiguity to project a relativistic worldview.

Almost all media sucks now. We should all feel ashamed and turn back but it's probably not happening. :marseyshrug:

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Being a peepee like his nobles were would lead too them getting murdered by peasants. Palestinian lives matter was not yet a thing and medieval peasants were not as pathetic as palestinians.

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The league literally drowned in r-slurred palestinian lives matter kitsch.

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Ummm buts its cool old public domain stuff look Alan Quaterman btfos James Bond and Mira from Dracula btfos Harry Potter and public domain british superheroes btfo the JLA :marseynerd2:

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That had such potential but he had too drag it init modern day and have his palestinian lives matter opinions ruin everything.

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Darkseid wasn't just ugly and irredeemable. He was also a recognizable sapient being as well as being the dark lord. Modern writers forget that, at his heart, Darkseid was a sad confused old man who had alienated all his children, lost the only creature he ever loved, and was surrounded by an entire planet of enablers. He also expressed respect for those clever and strong enough too defy him and once slapped Desaad down for daring too think a worm like him could ever break a brave strong man like Orion. His tragedy was deeper than the current palestinian lives matter crap.

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@Grue is right. Everything you say is always wrong.

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Feast of crows was one of the best books ivee read, and the culmination of Jamie transforming from a reprehensible frickwit into a responsible commander and politician against his will and the entire known world rightfully hating his guts - and his climax of desperately attempting to avoid a gruesome bloodbath against the blackfish, was the full circle of his character arc - an example of Martin's strength as a character writer

Which is why I'm fricking dumbfounded as to how utterly shot DoD is - literally one of the worst/most unpleasant books ive ever read.

Marting literally R*PES :marseytrollcrazy: :rape: Tyrion and Danny into horrible people. While it is plausible, undertsandable/realistic that Tyrion would degenerate into a drunken cruel person after the magnitude of his trauma, and Danny would frick up as a teenager, it felt highly unpleasant

Like negative character arc, where they were devolving - and I'm not talking about the hero's journey where usually protags usually have to face opposition/difficulty in life to overcome and grow into better versions of themselves - i mean i felt they devolved into simpler lesser uncomplicated versions of themselves - which i grant is a realistic outcome, but is an especially shit and unpleasant thing to experience,

AFTER they had already had charcacter abyss moments AND subsequent climax moments showing their hidden greatness

Fricking 40k books with weekly planetary genocides aren't as depressing :marseybeanannoyed: :marseybeanannoyed: :marseybeanannoyed:

What a shit book

Also the idea of duel books happening at the same moments in time is pretentious and retraded, and was probably the reason Martin overextended himself behind his own reasonable writing ability, cuz he was huffing the fumes of his own greatness

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The problem with AFFC and ADWD is that unlike the first 3 books they have no "end" proper. AFFC was supposed to be part of ADWD but it got split into two books because it was too long.

While it is plausible, undertsandable/realistic that Tyrion would degenerate into a drunken cruel person after the magnitude of his trauma, and daddy would frick up as a teenager, it felt highly unpleasant

Tyrion was never a good person tbh and think about what happened in ASOS. He found out that his father had his wife gangraped and his beloved brother concealed it from him. His evil sister always hated him, the realm thinks he's a monstrous kingslayer and he just killed his former lover and his own father (kinslaying). Now he gets drunk all day and fantasizes about raping and murdering his sister. Even before all that Tyrion had a singer killed for writing a song about him and Shae, he was probably the most whitewashed character on the show.

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I forgot all that

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The problem with AFFC and ADWD is that unlike the first 3 books they have no "end" proper

ADWD was supposed to end with the three large battles as a huge climax: the battle of Meereen, the battle of Storm's end, and the battle of Winterfell, but because GRRM got carried away, none of them happened. Instead they'll all happen at the start of TWOW, which seems kind of anti-climactic.

I've written out my thoughts about why GRRM has such problems getting the stories out, but I can't search my reddit history to find it, so I can't repost it here. The core problem can very easily be deduced if you read the original letter to his editor, where he outlined his plan for a 3 volume book (lol). His plan was for his story to have three Volumes, or arcs: The Game of Thrones chronicling the fight between Starks and Lannisters, A Dance with dragons, about the Taergaryan invasion of Westeros, and The Winds of winter which was supposed to be about the long night and the fight against the Others.

The volume ended up spanning three books, and the war between the two houses turned into the war of the five kings. AFFC and ADWD were supposed to cover the second volume (hence the name ADWD), but he fricked up even that, so now book titled the Winds of Winter will be the final book of the ADWD arc, which besides the three battles described above still has to do a lot of legwork, just to get us to the finale of the arc - which is the long waited invasion of Westeros. And only then the TWOW arc can start, probably not even in the book titled TWOW.

And the planned TWOW arc is probably his biggest frickup. While the Others are a fun distraction, a looming threat that gives a lot of characters something to do, they're an utterly boring as a resolution to a story about medieval politics. Humans duking it out with ice zombies is not an interesting or a satisfying conclusion to a story filled with interesting characters and character interactions. It's dumb. All the interesting bits of story are elsewhere.

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The volume ended up spanning three books, and the war between the two houses turned into the war of the five kings. AFFC and ADWD were supposed to cover the second volume (hence the name ADWD), but he fricked up even that, so now book titled the Winds of Winter will be the final book of the ADWD arc, which besides the three battles described above still has to do a lot of legwork, just to get us to the finale of the arc - which is the long waited invasion of Westeros. And only then the TWOW arc can start, probably not even in the book titled TWOW.

He needs at least 3 more books to end the saga on a satisfying way, the only way he can wrap it up in just 2 books is killing most of the POVs in TWOW. If Daenerys arrives in Westeros by the end of TWOW then ADOS (which will never be written lmao) will have to be a rushed mediocre novel like Seasons 7 and 8 of the show. It will be super disappointing to have The Others being deal with in just half a book after spending 6 longass books teasing them as the Big Bad Guys.

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Euron and The Ironborn are by far the more interesting villains of the series. Insane lovecraft vikangz that are awakening and disturbing every fricked up myth and magical site in the world in their greed while being complete masters of the seas in ability is way better than ice zombies. :marseyindignant:

It allows GM to really play around with his left behind skills as a horror writer too while still playing with mystery.

Euron Greyjoy has dozens of enslaved wizards, magi, alchemists and sorcerers in his ship that's he's forcing them to enact a mass ritual upon the Hightower to break into that ancient aliens maze its built atop of. :marseyreading:

!bookworms

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I don't know if this is unpopular, but I hate the Ironborn and the Greyjoy chapters. Euron popping as an eleven-hour cartoon villain feels like a distraction from the main series, if he wanted a story about Pirate Wizards he should write another novel on it, they better pay off in TWOW.

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Euron Greyjoy is a peak !edgelords character.

Also, to my memory, he was mentioned well in advance of his first appearance, because we see how his brothers loathe him. I don't know what role he has to play in the "main" story of ASOIAF though

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His role is to unleash the kraken cthulhu monster on the (((maester))) city

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GRRM said there will be no more new POVs on TWOW so we won't get Euron's. Victarion will likely play the role of bringing Daenerys and her armies to Westeros.

Euron theories are wild, some speculate he will steal one of Dany's dragons.

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Euron theories are wild, some speculate he will steal one of Dany's dragons.

The introduction of Valyrian artifacts in his possession seems like a very obvious setup for that. The only way it doesn't happen is if it gets scrapped (or, more realistically, if Martin dies before writing it) but it was 100% planned.

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Euron theories are nuts because everyone in universe talks him up and every time he shows up on page he's doing cool shit.

I wouldn't expect him as a POV character, he's too cool and mysterious :marseylaying: and I don't remember where everyone is placed if there would be an appropriate existing POV character, so maybe he won't really do anything in TWOW and we would learn what he did in ADOS (lol)

Also frick you for making me think TWOW will ever release :marseyfuckyou: :marseycrying:

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More comments

I hate the entire Daenerys storyline

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Read "Untangling the Meereenese Knot". (If you don't mind spending an hour reading analysis and speculation about a dead book series.) It gave me a new appreciation of the Dany storyline. While I still think it's subpar, I think it's because we still haven't gotten any payoff for her "pointless" stop in Meereen. The essay tries to make the case that the entire Meereen plot is actually building up to one of Martin's core ideas for the series.

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No.

I hate what she brought to the show/series. I hate the tropey horse men drogo was leading, I hate the entire desert/fantasy middle east arc actually, the series would have been better without dragons in it entirely imo

I was really into season 1 because it was a lot of good character driven drama but everything related to Daenerys is just fantasy slop

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My comment is more of a complaint that the vikangz should have been the main villains and the Others are basically brought back by them fricking around everywhere. I know GM is basically completely spent as a writer now so I'm not holding my breath for any pay-off from TWOW :marseygiveup:

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Oh, I kind of agree on that, unless he manages to make The Others more interesting (doubtful), they're supposed to be more like malignant Icy Elves than those silent ugly monsters we saw on the show.

I just hope it doesn't end in some final battle against the "Night King" who was the most generic fantasy villain shit D&D cooked.

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I expect it to be like World of Warcraft LMAO. "I dunt wan it but there must always be a Night's King" said Jon Snow :3

You should also get The Children of Hurin audiobook by Christopher Lee.

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Dude should have started writing 15 years and 350lbs sooner

He set the stage for an epic he cannot tell in his lifetime but the effort was initially valiant

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>Euron and The Ironborn are by far the more interesting villains of the series. Insane

:marseyagreefast:

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Is the little hobbit not a stand in for Martin? I'd heard that somewhere.

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I haven't read those books (back when the first volume came out, I tried reading it because I had liked other books by Martin, but I bounced off it hard because he was so heck-bent on 'I'm subverting the tropes of heroic fantasy, babe!' that I didn't want to spend any time with his shitty people in his shitty world).

But I suspect part of what you describe was down to him going "Ha ha, I am going to subvert expectations here once again, you think I'm gonna follow a simple stupid 'characters grow and develop into non-shitheads' arc? My fans and devoted followers expect more from me!"

His whole thing is "Oh, you believe all that rubbish about honour and morality, huh? Let me rub your nose in what the Shitty Middle Ages was really like" (except it wasn't like that). So if Tyrion and Dany were showing signs of the hero's journey to becoming non-shitty people - uh-oh, can't have that, that's bad old Tolkien simple black-and-white morality! I'm a complex writer dealing with moral ambiguity, shades of grey, and adult themes! So I'm gonna turn them back into shit-heads!

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The middle ages was mostly knights chasing bandits off too protect the farmers who kept them fed. A song of ice and fire is about as realistic as Palestinian lives matter or @911roofer's depiction of turks as subhuman orcish savages.

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Dany was always going to be a shithead and always was. Hated her from the start

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:#marseywoah:

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gwateest Bwong wwiter

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GRRM is American :amerimuttfastfood:

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I knyow his face

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Bleak as frick if either GRRM or Robert Jordan are the closest thing America has to Tolkien.

Dude, s*x and gore are so sophisticated lmao

:mars#eygeorgerrmartintalking: :mar#seyneckbeardtalking:

Manichean stories are tedious! BTW read my book about the magical sexy princess who's prophesied to save the world from evil ice zombies!

:mars#eygeorgerrmartintalking:

TWOW is almost done! Just give me a few more years to finish the last 600 pages of "Meals of Ice and Fire, vol 3."

:mars#eygeorgerrmartintalking:

Tugs braid

:mar#seyneckbeardtalking:

Dude foids lmao

:mar#seyneckbeardtalking:

TFW my 3 harem waifus are fighting :marseysadge:

:mar#seyneckbeardtalking:

Dating women is so hard. I wish I was like my friend or my other friend! :marseyblops2cel:

:mar#seyneckbeardtalking:

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America's Tolkien is John Norman (Pen-name of Philosophy Professor John Lange) The Chronicles of GOR.

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17226161869471476.webp

!bookworms

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saved

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Remember when spider man went to counter earth? In Marvel counter earth its all anthros !furries imagine living on a planet if bdsm furries

https://i.rdrama.net/images/1722621052392458.webp

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I love how timeless the artstyle of the covers of pulp magazines and books ended up. You can look at a cover of a Sci-fi magazine from the forties and think "Wow, this lady sure is hot". There's still dedicated coomer artists reproducing it in digital ink today while most other art just gets straggier.

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:marseywood:

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TWOW is almost done! Just give me a few more years to finish the last 600 pages of "Meals of Ice and Fire, vol 3."

I hate how true this is. I can totally see him dropping F&B part 2 before TWOW even though he promised not to publish any ASOIAF lore book or Dunk and Egg novella before finishing TWOW.

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To be fair there hasn't even been a British Tolkien-like author since 1973

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I think Martin very much wanted not to be compared to Tolkien, hence why he wrote such passages as you quote. "Oh look, I'm so adult and realistic and gritty and writing real worlds!"

Well, that Cersei bit is just porn, and the "ooh I've got the runs" isn't anything special either. Unless you've lived in a plastic sterile bubble all your life, you know what happens what happens when you get bad diarrhoea. Adult themes are "what are you saying in this story?" and not "I say frick and shit!"

Martin's world is deliberately one where "power corrupts, if you try to be good you're a fool who will end up dead". That's just as much simplistic black-and-white thinking as any other fantasy, and indeed it's a sub-genre of its own: picaresque literature.

And I think other people have pointed out that Martin has no concept of a tax policy or basis either in his world, since the economy wouldn't work the way he describes it. At least Tolkien really was a soldier and saw battle for even a short time.

From a letter of 1941:

>(W)ar broke out the next year, while I still had a year to go at college. In those days chaps joined up, or were scorned publicly. It was a nasty cleft to be in, especially for a young man with too much imagination and little physical courage. No degree: no money: fiancée. I endured the obloquy, and hints becoming outspoken from relatives, stayed up, and produced a First in Finals in 1915. Bolted into the army: July 1915. I found the situation intolerable and married on March 22, 1916. May found me crossing the Channel (I still have the verse I wrote on the occasion!) for the carnage of the Somme.

For an article in 1966:

>But the mythology (and associated languages) first began to take shape during the 1914-18 war. The Fall of Gondolin (and the birth of Eärendil) was written in hospital and on leave after surviving the Battle of the Somme in 1916. The kernel of the mythology, the matter of Lúthien Tinúviel and Beren, arose from a small woodland glade filled with 'hemlocks' (or other white umbellifers) near Roos on the Holderness peninsula – to which I occasionally went when free from regimental duties while in the Humber Garrison in 1918.

GRR Martin?

>Eligible for the draft during the Vietnam War, to which he objected, Martin applied for and obtained conscientious objector status; he instead did alternative service work for two years (1972–1974) as a VISTA volunteer, attached to the Cook County Legal Assistance Foundation.

I'm not saying Martin pretended to be a conscientious objector to avoid the draft, don't get me wrong on that, but there's a very different path they both took when it came to war, and ironically it's the guy who didn't write about pooping in the grass who knew first hand what a battlefield really is like.

The same goes for C.S. Lewis, who joined up as soon as he was legally old enough (again, under the heavy hinting of all around him that this was The Right Thing To Do):

>In spite of this I came into residence in the summer (Trinity) term of 1917; for the real object now was simply to enter the University Officers' Training Corps as my most promising route into the Army. ...I was less than a term at Univ when my papers came through and I enlisted; and the conditions made it a most abnormal term. Half the College had been converted into a hospital and was in the hands of the R.A.M.C. In the remaining portion lived a tiny community of undergraduates - two of us not yet of military age, two unfit, one a Sinn-Feiner who would not fight for England, and a few other oddments which I never quite placed. [Since Lewis was born in November 1898, he would not yet be eighteen years old then].

>I passed through the ordinary course of training (a mild affair in those days compared with that of the recent war) and was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the Somerset Light Infantry, the old XIIIth Foot. I arrived in the front line trenches on my nineteenth birthday (November 1917), saw most of my service in the villages before Arras - Fampoux and Monchy - and was wounded at Mt. Bernenchon, near Lillers, in April 1918.

>I am surprised that I did not dislike the Army more. It was, of course, detestable. But the words "of course" drew the sting. That is where it differed from Wyvern. One did not expect to like it. Nobody said you ought to like it. Nobody pretended to like it. Everyone you met took it for granted that the whole thing was an odious necessity, a ghastly interruption of rational life. And that made all the difference.

>…Some time in the middle of that winter I had the good luck to fall sick with what the troops called "trench fever" and the doctors P.U.O. (Pyrexia, unknown origin) and was sent for a wholly delightful three weeks to hospital at Le Tréport. ...Now, as an alternative to the trenches, a bed and a book were "very heaven". The hospital was a converted hotel and we were two in a room. My first week was marred by the fact that one of the night nurses was conducting a furious love affair with my room-mate. I had too high a temperature to be embarrassed, but the human whisper is a very tedious and unmusical noise; especially at night. After that my fortune mended. The amorous man was sent elsewhere and replaced by a musical misogynist from Yorkshire, who on our second morning together said to me, "Eh, lad, if we make beds ourselves dom b----s [darn bitches] won't stay in room so long" (or words to that effect). Accordingly, we made our own beds every day, and every day when the two V.A.D.'s looked in they said, "Oh, they've made their beds! Aren't these two good?" and rewarded us with their brightest smiles. I think they attributed our action to gallantry.

>... I may add that I did not enjoy the short time I spent in the company he commanded. Wallie had a genuine passion for killing Germans and a complete disregard of his own or anyone else's safety. He was always striking out bright ideas at which the hair of us subalterns stood on end. Luckily he could be very easily dissuaded by any plausible argument that occurred to us. Such was his valour and innocence that he never for a moment suspected us of any but a military motive. He could never grasp the neighbourly principles which, by the tacit agreement of the troops, were held to govern trench-warfare, and to which I was introduced at once by my sergeant. I had suggested "pooping" a rifle grenade into a German post where we had seen heads moving. "Just as 'ee like, zir," said the sergeant, scratching his head, "but once 'ee start doing that kind of thing, 'ee'll get zummit back, zee?"

>I must not paint the war-time army all gold. ...The troop train from Rouen - that interminable, twelve-mile-an-hour train, in which no two coaches were alike - left at about ten in the evening. Three other officers and I were allotted a compartment. There was no heating; for light we brought our own candles; for sanitation there were the windows. The journey would last about fifteen hours. It was freezing hard. In the tunnel just outside Rouen (all my generation remember it) there was a sudden wrenching and grating noise and one of our doors dropped off bodily into the dark.

>…The war itself has been so often described by those who saw more of it than I that I shall here say little about it. Until the great German attack came in the Spring we had a pretty quiet time. Even then they attacked not us but the Canadians on our right, merely "keeping us quiet" by pouring shells into our line about three a minute all day. …Through the winter, weariness and water were our chief enemies. I have gone to sleep marching and woken again and found myself marching still. One walked in the trenches in thigh gum boots with water above the knee; one remembers the icy stream welling up inside the boot when you punctured it on concealed barbed wire. Familiarity both with the very old and the very recent dead confirmed that view of corpses which had been formed the moment I saw my dead mother. …But for the rest, the war--the frights, the cold, the smell of H.E., the horribly smashed men still moving like half-crushed beetles, the sitting or standing corpses, the landscape of sheer earth without a blade of grass, the boots worn day and night till they seemed to grow to your feet--all this shows rarely and faintly in memory. It is too cut off from the rest of my experience and often seems to have happened to someone else. It is even in a way unimportant. One imaginative moment seems now to matter more than the realities that followed. It was the first bullet I heard--so far from me that it "whined" like a journ*list's or a peace-time poet's bullet. At that moment there was something not exactly like fear, much less like indifference: a little quavering signal that said, "This is War. This is what Homer wrote about."

>The rest of my war experiences have little to do with this story. How I "took" about sixty prisoners - that is, discovered to my great relief that the crowd of field-grey figures who suddenly appeared from nowhere, all had their hands up-is not worth telling, save as a joke. Did not Falstaff "take" Sir Colville of the Dale? Nor does it concern the reader to know how I got a sound "Blighty" from an English shell ... Two things stand out. One is the moment, just after I had been hit, when I found (or thought I found) that I was not breathing and concluded that this was death. I felt no fear and certainly no courage. It did not seem to be an occasion for either. The proposition "Here is a man dying" stood before my mind as dry, as factual, as unemotional as something in a text-book.

It's easy to congratulate yourself on being so much tougher-minded than men who really did get shot at and bombarded, while you're writing about a woman with a dose of the shits.

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May found Tolkien crossing the Channel, groaning. Every idea was worse than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up, he was writing about Tom Bombadil.

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That comment is still better than what Martin wrote, and Edmund Wilson is right: I am gay for liking juvenile trash like Tolkien 🤣

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After that my fortune mended. The amorous man was sent elsewhere and replaced by a musical misogynist

You just know he reminisced often over the fun times with his misogynist bro

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:marseychudpat:

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Eh, lad, if we make beds ourselves dom b----s [darn bitches] won't stay in room so long

:chadtalking#:

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That was a mistake. You're about to find out the hard way why.

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I stwopped weading after u implied Twowlkien was a better wwiter.

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!ringbearers

Kill this strag

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>What really distinguishes Martin, and what marks him as a major force for evolution in fantasy, is his refusal to embrace a vision of the world as a Manichaean struggle between Good and Evil. Tolkien's work has enormous imaginative force, but you have to go elsewhere for moral complexity.

That kind of critic misunderstanding annoyed Tolkien. From a reply to an article in 1956:

>Of course in 'real life' causes are not clear cut — if only because human tyrants are seldom utterly corrupted into pure manifestations of evil will. As far as I can judge some seem to have been so corrupt, but even they must rule subjects only part of whom are equally corrupt, while many still need to have 'good motives', real or feigned, presented to them. As we see today. Still there are clear cases: e.g. acts of sheer cruel aggression, in which therefore right is from the beginning wholly on one side, whatever evil the resentful suffering of evil may eventually generate in members of the right side. There are also conflicts about important things or ideas. In such cases I am more impressed by the extreme importance of being on the right side, than I am disturbed by the revelation of the jungle of confused motives, private purposes, and individual actions (noble or base) in which the right and the wrong in actual human conflicts are commonly involved. If the conflict really is about things properly called right and wrong, or good and evil, then the rightness or goodness of one side is not proved or established by the claims of either side; it must depend on values and beliefs above and independent of the particular conflict.

>...In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think that at any rate any 'rational being' is wholly evil. Satan fell. In my myth Morgoth fell before Creation of the physical world. In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit. In The Lord of the Rings the conflict is not basically about 'freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honour. The Eldar and the Númenóreans believed in The One, the true God, and held worship of any other person an abomination. Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants; if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world.

>… Some critics seem determined to represent me as a simple-minded adolescent, inspired with, say, a With-the-flag-to-Pretoria spirit, and wilfully distort what is said in my tale. I have not that spirit, and it does not appear in the story. The figure of Denethor alone is enough to show this; but I have not made any of the peoples on the 'right' side, Hobbits, Rohirrim, Men of Dale or of Gondor, any better than men have been or are, or can be. Mine is not an 'imaginary' world, but an imaginary historical moment on 'Middle-earth' – which is our habitation.

From a draft letter of 1971:

>Affixing 'labels' to writers, living or dead, is an inept procedure, in any circumstances: a childish amusement of small minds: and very 'deadening', since at best it overemphasizes what is common to a selected group of writers, and distracts attention from what is individual (and not classifiable) in each of them, and is the element that gives them life (if they have any). But I cannot understand how I should be labelled 'a believer in moral didacticism'. Who by? It is in any case the exact opposite of my procedure in The Lord of the Rings. I neither preach nor teach.

But some critics, like Edmund Wilson, were and are very determined that's Tolkien is writing simple black-and-white childish fantasy, not like the proper writers of real fantasy which is good.

Ooo, those awful Orcs! by Wilson.

An article discussing why Wilson liked Cabell (a now-obscure fantasy writer) when he first disliked his work. Also, if you like Tolkien, you're gay (according to Wilson):

>But there is another aspect of Wilson's reaction to Tolkien that is considerably darker than this. Though some now claim that The Lord of the Rings was generally hated when it was new, it in fact received some ecstatic reviews, and Wilson addresses this. How could such a terrible book garner such praise? "The answer is, I believe, that certain people – especially, perhaps, in Britain – have a lifelong appetite for juvenile trash." There, that settles it.

>Who are these people? Wilson is referring to an earlier paragraph in which he quotes favorable reviews by four critics, three of them British: Richard Hughes, Naomi Mitchison, C.S. Lewis, and one American, Louis J. Halle. He then turns in more detail to "the most distinguished of Tolkien's admirers and the most conspicuous of his defenders," W.H. Auden (British by origin, later residing in the U.S.). Wilson manages to dismiss Auden's praise by suggesting that Auden's professional interest in the theme of the Quest, a matter at the forefront of Tolkien's tale, has short-circuited Auden's critical judgment. So much for him.

>…Wilson counted Auden as a personal friend as well as an admired poet, and I guess this sharp dissimilarity in their tastes ate at Wilson. At any rate, it was still gnawing away a decade later, when, in 1967/68, Wilson made a note in his personal journal, which was posthumously published (The Sixties: The Last Journal, 1960-1972, edited by Lewis M. Dabney, 1993, p. 642). In a context of musing on how (hetero)sexual lust (by men) has given rise to a disproportionate amount of "rapture and despair … heroisms and excesses," he comments: "Yet homosexuals don't seem to have flowered and borne fruit, don't seem to have fully matured: Auden with his appetite for Tolkien."

>Here we have hit rock bottom. Auden's "lifelong appetite for juvenile trash" is because he's gay, and Auden's liking for Tolkien is evidence that there's something immature about gay people in general.

>…It's also absurd even on its face. Need I even point out that not all gay people like Tolkien? And those other three British critics – Hughes, Mitchison, and Lewis (I don't know anything about Halle) – were sexually straight, and they were just as ecstatic about Tolkien as Auden was. ("They bubble, they squeal, they coo," says Wilson.)

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That is such a cwope defense. I wwote a stwory where I repwesent characters as evwl perswonyifwied but acktuawwy they aren't twuwy evwl as pure evwl dwoesn't exist. Nyo, I wiww dwo nyothing in the bwook itself two shwow this cwompwexity.

:marseyakshually: :soysnootypefast:

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As opposed to Game Of Shit where everyone fricking sucks and it's a completely unwatchable (probably unreadable) piece of cynical garbage?

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All fantasy writers are trash by default and modern day audiences are so desperate for escapism that they would embrace even the middling shit author as a new found lover.

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Can't argue with that

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Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace, she thought, slipping a third finger into Myr. Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons of my face and fingers one by one, al those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs.

Actually a good view of the female mind by George :marseygeorgerrmartin:

Women love posting their L's

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Actually a good view of the female mind by George :marseygeorgerrmartin:

!nooticers thoughts on that excerpt? :marseywomanmoment:

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but he doesn't write childrens books how can he be the americna tolkien

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The Hobbit alone has more literary merit than GRRM's entire corpus :marseyindignant:

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maybe, but everything tolkien wrote was for children.

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Depends

The Hobbit, yes

LOTR, kind of, even back in the 50s it attracted audiences of all ages but teenagers and young adults were the ones to love it the most.

The Silmarillion, no. Is not that is not "suitable" for kids or anything, but the prose is much harder unlike the Hobbit which is quite simple, same with the plots, many LOTR fans were disappointed with The Silmarillion because is a dry mythology Bible-like compendium instead of an adventure/fantasy novel.

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I mean, the Tale of the Children of Hurin isn't a fun cheery happy kids' story. It too has incest in it, but whereas Martin would probably describe every moment of the THEY'RE SIBLINGS HAVING S*X THIS IS INCEST DO YOU GET IT? in gloating detail, Tolkien just tells us "yep, they met again. they didn't recognise each other. they got married. she got pregnant. then they found out. and she killed herself, and he went even madder than he already was and killed himself. then their parents found out about it all later."

It's a very dark story, and the restraint makes it even more emotionally affecting. The entire saga is one long tangled mess of good people making bad decisions and how that makes everything go to heck, with innocent bystanders (and not-so-innocent ones) getting caught in the crossfire and ending up dead and worse.

You don't actually need to write every single little detail of the s*x and gore and so forth to get a reaction out of the reader, if your story is strong enough and your writing is good enough.

Like, Hurin is this epic hero. He stands up to and defies Morgoth for decades of physical and psychological torture. Then he's let go, but that's just Morgoth being a cat playing with a mouse. And the heroic warrior who could tirelessly kills scores of enemies in battle is, in the end, a weak old man who hasn't even the strength to lift the dead body of his wife up so he can bury her properly:

>But Húrin passed on, and at evening of the sixth day he came at last to the place of the burning of Glaurung, and saw the tall stone standing near the brink of Cabed Naeramarth. But Húrin did not look at the stone, for he knew what was written there, and his eyes had seen that he was not alone. Sitting in the shadow of the stone there was a figure bent over its knees. Some homeless wanderer broken with age it seemed, too wayworn to heed his coming; but its rags were the remnants of a woman's garb. At length as Húrin stood there silent she cast back her tattered hood and lifted up her face slowly, haggard and hungry as a long-hunted wolf. Grey she was, sharp-nosed with broken teeth, and with a lean hand she clawed at the cloak upon her breast. But suddenly her eyes looked into his, and then Húrin knew her; for though they were wild now and full of fear, a light still gleamed in them hard to endure: the elven-light that long ago had earned her her name, Edelwen, proudest of mortal women in the days of old.

>"Edelwen! Edelwen!" Húrin cried; and she rose and stumbled forward, and he caught her in his arms.

>"You come at last," she said. "I have waited too long."

>"It was a dark road. I have come as I could," he answered.

>"But you are late," she said, "too late. They are lost."

>"I know," he said. "But thou art not."

>"Almost," she said. "I am spent utterly. I shall go with the sun. They are lost." She clutched at his cloak. "Little time is left," she said. "If you know, tell me! How did she find him?"

>But Húrin did not answer, and he sat beside the stone with Morwen in his arms; and they did not speak again. The sun went down, and Morwen sighed and clasped his hand and was still; and Húrin knew that she had died.

>So passed Morwen the proud and fair; and Húrin looked down at her in the twilight, and it seemed that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. Cold and pale and stern was her face. "She was not conquered," he said; and he closed her eyes, and sat on unmoving beside her as night drew down. The waters of Cabed Naeramarth roared on, but he heard no sound and saw nothing, and he felt nothing, for his heart was stone within him, and he thought that he would sit there until he too died.

>Then there came a chill wind and drove sharp rain in his face; and suddenly he was roused, and out of a black deep anger rose in him like a smoke, mastering reason, so that all his desire was to seek vengeance for his wrongs, and for the wrongs of his kin, accusing in his anguish all those who ever had had dealings with them.

>He arose and lifted Morwen up; and suddenly he knew that it was beyond his strength to bear her. He was hungry and old, and weary as winter. Slowly he laid her down again beside the standing stone. "Lie there a little longer, Edelwen," he said, "until I return. Not even a wolf would do you more hurt. But the folk of this hard land shall rue the day that you died here!"

If Martin has written anything this pitiful and sad and emotionally affecting, I'd be glad to hear it. Not some stupid vain b-word licking c*m off her fingers.

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1 of the 50 books he wrote was for children

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what he only wrote 4 books and they are all lord of the rings which are childrens books :talk2hand:

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Modern readers are as sophisticated as children from the 50s

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Hwonyestwy that's fair. The Hwobbit is unyiquewy fun in a gay way.

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He writes shit exclusively for adult children. That counts right?

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JK Rowling is the American Tolkien.

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Who wrote Marvel? Burgers don't read books. The American Tolkien is Jay R CGI Skybeam.

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Why do edgy swordshit writers always have several chapters detailing a foids explosive shits.

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Realism and maturity is when you describe your characters pooping and fricking

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At the same time

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Hog fetish :marseychonker: :marseybrap:

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It's literally one line in the last book. This isn't world of gor garbage

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World of gor kino

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Neighbor needs to finish a series before being anywhere remotely near Tolkien.

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I think a lot of praise for George RR Martin came with the belief that he had a plan on how it would all be tied together and that he would be able to execute that plan. Now it is very clear that he has no actual idea how to tie together all the loose ends. He built this awesome world but he just couldn't stop adding more shit onto the pile. People may argue that Tolkien is more "kiddy" but I don't really think that's a bad thing. You don't need adult themes and intricate politics to tell an amazing story. Tolkien's books are very comfy, even when the stories come upon complex topics, we often see them through the mind of a simpler creature like a hobbit. Reading both authors back to back makes GRRM's books feel like he is trying too hard to add adult themes and complexities.


https://i.postimg.cc/dVgyQgj2/image.png https://i.postimg.cc/d3Whbf0T/image.png

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Jordan is closer. Because he and Tolkien are more interested in describing the world than telling a story.

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george martin keeps writing new crap for ASOIAF encyclopedias and little spin-off novellas instead of writing the main story :marseyshrug:

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Tough to say who actually is America's best rival to Tolkien. Maybe Ursula K. Le Guin? :marseyhmm:

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Left hand ✋ of darkness has gender bending - best book 📖 for bisexuals :marseyblowkiss:

"What the rest of the universe humans only has one s*x their whole lives? What a bunch of freaks!?"

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Brandon Sanderson :marseyshapiro:

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_of_Kings

unironically, i thought that was really interesting

the series falls off hard in the second book, though

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Insofar as he's striving to create a grand mythos and ground everything in the rules and history of the "secondary world", he's actually the closest to Tolkien of anyone alive right now.

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Honestly I don't think Tolkien is all that great. He is an amazing author but people act like he's one of the best of all time, but if you compare him to most of Classic 20th and 21st century writers he doesn't even come close. The main reason people put him so high is because he wrote what was probably their first fantasy book, like even now most kids or teens first fantasy book is probably LOTR. And ultimately the problem does come down to his world being great and his story being okay, and not because it lacks a "grey" morality, but because adventure stories are boring most of the time.

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>Tolkien: I need an original name for a character, in the unique language of my charachters, of course! I can't fathom why they would have standard Anglo names! Perhaps I can use Fea--for Spirit, and the suffix -nor, denoting fire, of fire, or fiery---and we have Feänor, an Elf with a spirit of fire. Now, let me repeat this with hundreds of characters in the dozens of languages I created.

>GRRM: I don't know Ned sounds good I guess.

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GRRM is good becuse fantasy other than Tolkien is dogshit and embarrassing. Its the only genre fic I'll read bc he writes good stories

You also picked the two quotes that literally picked by everyone to criticize his writing. Dany diarrhea is bad but the Cersei quote is a brutal darning of Robert's legacy using her own warped/enttiled and limited sense of empowerment to achieve anything in the world which is like her whole character and is very profound as it is gross.

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Frank Frazetta said you should be a first-rate version of yourself, not a second-rate version of Frazetta. George r r martin is a cute twink who says palestinian lives matter and needs too be r*ped by mandango men brcause they have big peepeees and AIDS and don't use lube. Not for his writing. For his r-slurred stunt at the Hugo awards.

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This is for anybody who even thinks GRRM is even in the same league as Tolkien

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The American Tolkien was M.A.R. Barker for all sorts of reasons:

  • Linguistics professor :marseynotes:

  • Created the history, languages, and lore of his Tékumel world as a home for stories -- not the stories first like most authors :marseyreading:

  • Tékumel, like Middle Earth, was highly influential in RPG settings :marseydragon: Empire of the Petal Throne even became a D&D setting in 1975

How he was unlike Tolkien:

  • The Jewish question :marseysaluteisrael:
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GRRM isn't exactly a great author but comparing him to Tolkien is just cruel. The characters, prose, themes, plotting, etc. of Tolkien's work are at the level of your average shitty YA author. The fact that anyone respects him is exactly why literature has declined over the last century.

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You probably think palestinian lives matter

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You can have your opinion but ill stop you at prose. People have been trying to ape Tolkiens prose for decades and they invariably fail. :marseythegrey:

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LoTR is so painfully Reddit that it hurts. I feel sorry for anybody who ever liked that basic butt shit LMAO it was essentially the original Marvel slop goyshit

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The American Tolkien is Henry Darger Jr :marseypipe: :marseyschizowave: although he might have actually started writing before Tolkien

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Robert Stanek is the American Tolkien.

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Check his HD

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They call Dramanauts, Neurodivergents. Neurodivergents... easily duped, will believe anything, and by the time the destruction is upon them, one or more of their family has been captured and turned against the team. "/r/Drama has served us well...," one captor gloated.

Snapshots:

https://time.com/archive/6675462/books-the-american-tolkien/:

https://old.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/hw0ls4/the_american_tolkien_isnt_george_r_r_martin_its/:

https://old.reddit.com/r/books/comments/61k1v0/robert_jordan_the_american_tolkien/:

https://old.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/1fim7a/no_spoilers_the_american_spectator_is_george_rr/:

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This is a stupid comparison. Totally different eras. Fantasy was then a low wit laughingstock not a low wit cash cow like today.

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